Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP), Feb. 26, 2010

Gerard · Post by **Gerard** » 05 Apr 2010 21:03

CRamS, Hasn't MMS/Sonia/insert_name_here already sold out India? Is there anything left to sell? Or to incessantly whine about? Why this new worry about right wing demagoguery when, as we all know, it just takes one word from a State Department underling to make the chowkidar in Race Course road jump up, salute, and sell out India for the nth time.

Suppiah · Post by **Suppiah** » 05 Apr 2010 21:12

How come there is no news of the ISI building destruction any more? Is that not true? All reports are only about no damage to consulate and the ANP attack.

Gerard · Post by **Gerard** » 05 Apr 2010 21:22

All of this is off-topic, and I do not want to get on the wrong side of Gerard, so will let this be my last comment on this topic.

Boss, have no fear about that.

Also there are numerous threads where the conspiracy by everyone else in the world (be they human, dolphin, penguin or parrot), to deny India its rightful place is discussed ad nauseum. Outside India, behind every rock and tree, lurks an enemy. Inside India, behind every second rock or tree lurks someone on the enemy payroll. All babus and netas are fools and traitors. Only forum members wise enough to discern the conspiracies (and whine about them) are true patriots.

Suppiah · Post by **Suppiah** » 05 Apr 2010 21:34

Just got curious about ANP and went thru their website as well as about Gaffar Khan 'thanks' to this blast - more we read about Sindh, Pakhtunkwa (wonder where they came up this Kwa, it is used for roasted meat, usually pork in some Chinese countries) etc., the more I think it is clear it is just Pakjab that is a problem, not TSP as a whole...any mullahs here with same feelings?

Rangudu · Post by **Rangudu** » 05 Apr 2010 21:35

CRS,

Cold War, anti-India types in the Pentagon have been saying this stuff on Cashmere etc. since 2001. The Evanjehadi types insticntively know which side their bread is buttered and which side is on "their side" in the region.

Amber G. · Post by **Amber G.** » 05 Apr 2010 21:46

Gerard wrote:....., behind every rock and tree, lurks an enemy. Inside India, behind every second rock or tree lurks someone on the enemy payroll. All babus and netas are fools and traitors. Only forum members wise enough to discern the conspiracies (and whine about them) are true patriots.

Correction. Only some forum members...(not all) are true patriots ... (Many of them are to be wished to be hit by terrorists by these patriots)

negi · Post by **negi** » 05 Apr 2010 21:47

Gerard wrote: Outside India, behind every rock and tree, lurks an enemy.

The wackos in Unkilland too are no different they see terrorists and enemies of state almost in every nook and corner of earth including India and while India is yet to confront the Unkil former's policies have on many occasions harmed Indian interests (now waiting for MUTUs to crawl out of woodwork to say 'oh it was only doing what was in its interests'

) .

--typos

Gerard · Post by **Gerard** » 05 Apr 2010 21:59

Rangudu wrote:Cold War, anti-India types in the Pentagon have been saying this stuff on Cashmere etc. since 2001.

Parts of the US establishment have been pressuring India on Cashmere for six decades now.

Altair · Post by **Altair** » 05 Apr 2010 22:15

If Congress led govt does some concession there is a great chance of a very right wing government taking power at Delhi. I guess Sonia realizes that. Hence no voices regarding the issue.

CRamS · Post by **CRamS** » 05 Apr 2010 22:21

Marten:

Which planet do you live in? I live on mother Earth which is dominated by what US interests are of the day. Welcome to the real world. No conspiracy here to dismiss my fear. Are you willing to wager how many in the US establishment: Pentagon, state dept, think tanks, media either know or willing to admit that US war on terrorists is the same as India's war on terrorists. India is the good guy here, and whatever view US may have regarding TSP's so called disputes with India, real or imaginary, talk about "dispute resolution" is disingeneuous to say the least with terror from TSP raging. How many are willing to come out and say so openly? Furthermore, it is there for everyone to see, out in the open, no conspiracy, US does not see things this way. Maybe my following figuratvie scenario is imperfect, but what we are seeing is both US & India caught in a fire that TSP, the terrorist arsonist started (perhpahs US is no saint here, given the propposing up of terrorists in the 1980s to fight the Soviets, but lets leave that aside for the moment). Now US wants to get out, and TSP arsonist is telling US, I will let you escape the fire, but only if you leave India to burn in the fire. The Pentagon has essentially bought this. Hence you hear the unadulterated nonsense, crap, from morons like Mullen & Stanley, and rowdies like Holbrooke about "alleviating tensions between India & TSP will help US's war on terror", or "TSP is threatnebe by its giant neighbor", "India's role in Afganisthan fuels regional tensions", TSP attacks in Afganisthan were not aimed at India etc. These are views out in the open, no conspiracy here.

Finally, if you believe that US media in general, and right-wing media in particular, are not mouthpieces of Pentagon and military industrial complex, then boss, your need to study the US media with an open mind. I will just remind you of the Iraq WBD fraud that was pulled off in broad daylight. So much for the US media, thank you very much, but this is not the topic of this thread.

Amber G. · Post by **Amber G.** » 05 Apr 2010 23:04

It is also true that a majority of military employees vote Republican,

To add to above - Things are far from that black and white description. (Mostly it depends on the background of the people in general vs military/nonmilitary part ) eg:

clear majority of military men turned politicians (or elected members of congress etc) at present are democrats.

Most military men in US are registered as independent (>50%), Registered republicans are actually less (about 5% or so) than the general population. (both are in the 20-30% range)

Even in 2004 election polls indicated 10% difference between Bush/Kerry (55%-45%), the margin was even slim in the case of McCain/Obama (50% to 46% - 4% going to others) (Even considering McCain was a war hero) .. and of course, in many local elections where there are popular democrats running elections get majority of votes from military men too ...

Above results could be checked (I did not have time to google) ..

Carl_T · Post by **Carl_T** » 05 Apr 2010 23:11

That is certainly news to me. The liberal media seems to project the military as the bastion of evangelical conservatives. Whenever you get the time, would you mind putting the source up? I'm quite curious to know.

Anurag · Post by **Anurag** » 05 Apr 2010 23:17

A MUST MUST MUST watch. In urdu off course..heads up! He's probably the only real thinking smart pakistani! He owns the crowd!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6mDwHsK1qxg

Rangudu · Post by **Rangudu** » 05 Apr 2010 23:18

CRS,

Trust me - I get the gist of what you say and I'll be the first to admit that India cannot dismiss any renewed effort on "Cashmere" by == turds like Holbrooke supported by US Generals.

However, you have to consider the impact on the credibility of your arguments when you oversimplify them to the extent you are doing. Every other statement you make seems to bring in "White this" and "Republican that" etc.

If a dumbass person misses nuances, people will not think much because he is expected to be simplistic.

However, for someone who clearly understands things as you do, reverting to simplistic slogans will only cause you to lose credibility.

A_Gupta · Post by **A_Gupta** » 05 Apr 2010 23:21

Carl_T wrote:That is certainly news to me. The liberal media seems to project the military as the bastion of evangelical conservatives. Whenever you get the time, would you mind putting the source up? I'm quite curious to know.

(a) Politico.com
http://www.politico.com/news/stories/1108/15455.html

(b) This is a liberal blog:
http://www.fivethirtyeight.com/2009/05/ ... -vote.html

b explains that some of the "military votes republican" comes because the survey covers only older, white officers.

(c) armed forces campaign contributions
http://www.opensecrets.org/news/2008/08 ... ve-61.html
Obama got 6 to 1 for McCain from troops deployed overseas.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 05 Apr 2010 23:21

Not to mention the Forum's credibility for hosting such unbacked assertions.

Altair · Post by **Altair** » 05 Apr 2010 23:35

Unkil is a Business man. If Pakistan is an investment to secure interests in South Asia,Central Asia and he is pouring his money in,How is he hedging? Pakistan is a high risk investment. It can explode or implode at any given point of time. So how are they reducing the risk of investment?

Gerard · Post by **Gerard** » 05 Apr 2010 23:38

I'll be the first to admit that India cannot dismiss any renewed effort on "Cashmere" by == turds like Holbrooke supported by US Generals.

Indeed. We should also not underestimate the knowledge and ability of the Indian bureaucracy which has dealt with such US schemes for decades.

Prasad · Post by **Prasad** » 05 Apr 2010 23:39

Anurag wrote:A MUST MUST MUST watch. In urdu off course..heads up! He's probably the only real thinking smart pakistani! He owns the crowd!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6mDwHsK1qxg

Would love to see this guy debate zaid hamid

He absolutely demolishes all the we're the best onlee statements often touted.

A_Gupta · Post by **A_Gupta** » 05 Apr 2010 23:41

^^^^
There is no breakout of how many overseas military votes Obama got. Because military veterans form 15% of the voting population, the exit polls are accurate enough to tell us that Obama got 44% of the vote of the military-in-the-US vote.

As far as Pentagon PR goes - during the Rumsfeld era, the Pentagon brought in retired military officers and gave them the official line to spout, and they would go on news-shows as "independent military experts", not reveal their affiliation with the Pentagon, and would spout the official line.

e.g.
http://www.salon.com/news/opinion/glenn ... 12/di_rita

Gerard · Post by **Gerard** » 05 Apr 2010 23:42

So how are they reducing the risk of investment?

By simultaneously investing in other players.

Altair · Post by **Altair** » 05 Apr 2010 23:48

Gerard wrote:
So how are they reducing the risk of investment?
By simultaneously investing in other players.

They are not investing in Balochistan and Sindh. They are not investing as much in Afghanistan either.

PS: I posted the same question in Ind-US thread. lets continue there. Thanks

RamaY · Post by **RamaY** » 06 Apr 2010 00:00

Altair wrote: They are not investing in Balochistan and Sindh. They are not investing as much in Afghanistan either.

They do not invest in Balochi or Sindhi groups because their real enemy is not TSPA or TSP (in general).

Think why would UK/USA/KSA/PRC want to ally with TSPA?

CRamS · Post by **CRamS** » 06 Apr 2010 00:15

R-man/Marten et. al.,

We are where we are now. Lets stick to substance. There is at the moment, maybe a bit latent, common feeling in US circcles: pentagon, state dept, media, think tanks etc; that TSP has a legitimate grouse against India (maybe a convenient perception I don't know). Furthermore, there is an even a greater sympathy/appreciation in the recent past that US actions of 1980s have caused enormous stress on TSP. Couple these 2, and there is the inescapable conclusion among US policy wonks that TSP's interests must be pandered to: 1) $s and military hardware, and 2) reduction in "threat" from TSP's "giant neighbor" (meaning handing over "Cashmere"). And I have seen nothing, nada, zilch coming from MMS & Co to forecfully disabuse US from these disgusting notions based on simple falsehoods. They have assumed a life of their own. I am trying to do my bit in my own way, but the onus based on is on MMS & Co. And my point is that this sophistry will only gain momentum should US suffer more attacks from TSP proxies in the coming days.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 06 Apr 2010 00:36

There is a slow drum roll building up about need to enhance TSP security in the east. We can see the build up in talk shows, chatterati/expertati spurts and editorials.

negi · Post by **negi** » 06 Apr 2010 00:37

Marten truth is Unkil already knows .

Carl_T · Post by **Carl_T** » 06 Apr 2010 00:38

A_Gupta wrote:
(a) Politico.com
http://www.politico.com/news/stories/1108/15455.html

Quite interesting, so this Republican party being the "party of the military" is a Vietnam war creation. There certainly have been a number of Democratic politicians who have distinguished themselves in war from Kerry to Clark.

svinayak · Post by **svinayak** » 06 Apr 2010 00:49

Last week they were doing it again.
Everybody is in this game. The US, Pak Army leadership etc.

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/8326e9bc-3887 ... abdc0.html

Pakistan boosts troops on Indian border

Pakistan has sent extra troops to its border with India, saying rising tensions with its neighbour prevent it from expanding its military campaign against Taliban militants on its western border.

http://islamabad.usembassy.gov/pr-10012205.html

MS. CHAUDHRY: Okay. Do you think Pakistan faces legitimate security concerns on its eastern borders?
SEC. GATES: I think that Pakistan has legitimate security concerns. I think that we are interested in listening to those and working with Pakistan to deal with those. Our primary concern, though, is that issues between states, especially here in this region, be settled peacefully and politically.
MS. CHAUDHRY: So the Indian general has recently issued some statements which were very provocative towards Pakistan. He talked of starting a war simultaneously against Pakistan and China, finishing it off in 96 hours. There was no talk of any trigger or any provocation for that war. So in view of such explicit statements coming out and in the view of the history where we see two recent mobilizations by the Indian army against the Pakistani border, how can Pakistan commit itself for a greater role on its western borders?
SEC. GATES: Well, I think, first of all, because it faces, in its own way, a existential threat on its western border.
MS. CHAUDHRY: But not on its eastern border?
SEC. GATES: I said we understood Pakistan's legitimate concerns. It also has an existential threat on its western border, and that is the more immediate threat. That is the threat where people have put suicide bombers in Pakistan cities, have killed Pakistani military officers and their families. This is the threat that faces Pakistan most immediately, and that's the reason why I think, very intelligently, Pakistani leadership has taken action to prevent those kind of attacks from happening.

http://www.rusi.org/downloads/assets/To ... curity.pdf

Amber G. · Post by **Amber G.** » 06 Apr 2010 00:52

^^^Among the most notable in the present congress are Sen. Daniel Inouye, Senator Daniel Akaka , Sen. Jim Webb , John McCain ..etc ....Except for McCain all of them in the above list are Democrats. Wikipedia or this link gives the profile of the present congress:
link

CRamS · Post by **CRamS** » 06 Apr 2010 01:01

Marten wrote:CRS, where is this latent feeling being expressed? <- genuine question, not a jab.

If you recall, part of that rowdy pervert Holbrook's mandate was Cashmere. It was when India made a lot of noises, that Obama backed up. But as that WSJ report indcates, latently, the push is still there. And one can only draw reasonable conclusion that TSP's concerns are the main reasons why LET does not figure prominently in US demands on TSP, and US showng India the middle finger on DH.

svinayak · Post by **svinayak** » 06 Apr 2010 01:03

CRamS wrote:
If you recall, part of that rowdy pervert Holbrook's mandate was Cashmere. It was when India made a lot of noises, that Obama backed up. But as that WSJ report indcates, latently, the push is still there. And one can only draw reasonable conclusion that TSP's concerns are the main reasons why LET does not figure prominently in US demands on TSP, and US showng India the middle finger on DH.

There are many factions within the US establishment.
The ones which are pandering to the Pak demands and showing India the finger is the old Milt Bearden crowd.

Dipanker · Post by **Dipanker** » 06 Apr 2010 01:08

ramana wrote:There is a slow drum roll building up about need to enhance TSP security in the east. We can see the build up in talk shows, chatterati/expertati spurts and editorials.

This was expected after the Paki begging jumboree got only measly $150 million for all the hoopla they created over the big "strategic meet".

Pakis are once again showing their tactical brilliance (NOT!), the idea is to get more bheek from Amirkhan.

Carl_T · Post by **Carl_T** » 06 Apr 2010 01:20

Not all, John Kerry is also a combat vet.

Amber G. · Post by **Amber G.** » 06 Apr 2010 01:35

^^^Obviously my list is partial at best..my only point was that there is no monopoly of any party wrt to military service etc. Just trying to say that not all of them (or even a significantly large majority) are republicans (or democrats).

Dipanker · Post by **Dipanker** » 06 Apr 2010 01:36

Suppiah wrote:Just got curious about ANP and went thru their website as well as about Gaffar Khan 'thanks' to this blast - more we read about Sindh, Pakhtunkwa (wonder where they came up this Kwa, it is used for roasted meat, usually pork in some Chinese countries) etc., the more I think it is clear it is just Pakjab that is a problem, not TSP as a whole... any mullahs here with same feelings?

Agreed.

Indian govt. should try to isolate the Pakjabis by overtly stating that Sindh/Baluchistan/Pakhtunkhwa are not the problem Pakjabs are the problem! I won't be surprised if Sindh/Baluchistan/Pakhtunkhwa agree with us too!

Dipanker · Post by **Dipanker** » 06 Apr 2010 01:40

CRamS wrote:Guys: Lets see. More such Talibunny attacks against US inetersets, and you will have dim-wit demagouges like Rush Limbaugh, Glen Beck, Shawn Hannity, Sarah palin et. all in another one of those loud-mouthed "liberal Vs conservatives" theater will be blasting Obama for not holding India's balls and demanding that it deliver Kashmir and whatever else that TSP has conveyed to Pentagon that India must hand over to TSP. Because you see, US war with Talibunnies and Al Queda is dictated from Jesus Christ himself, and how dare Hindu SDRE India come in the way by not be willing to endure TSP's blood thirst?

For those in India who are not aware of how US media works; most of the US media, especially the so called mainstream conservatives to the far right (both groups constitute roughly 80% of the media with massive following including Nazi talk radio) are mouthpieces of the Pentagon and military. Somewhat like that rag Samana or whatever is a mouthpiece of Shiv Sena. Thus, as the Wall Street journal (another loyal voice of Pentagon) report indicates, the Pentagon wants Obama to squeeze India's balls, and so I won't be surprised if this hits the airwaves as another one of those tea party pet peeves, "liberal Obama not sequeezing India's balls is hurting US interests in Af-Pak".

You should qualify your statements by IMO tags as they are your opinion not facts.

sujoy · Post by **sujoy** » 06 Apr 2010 01:48

Shiv,

I am happy to report that your video has been reinstated, though it had to be made age restricted.

shiv wrote:I had a video about the Mumbai attacks with translations of the terrorists calls on YouTube.
I have received the following love letter from YouTube
The following video(s) from your account have been disabled for violation of the YouTube Community Guidelines:
Mumbai 26/11-Making Allah do Pakistan's work -
Your account has received one Community Guidelines warning strike, which will expire in six months. Additional violations may result in the temporary disabling of your ability to post content to YouTube and/or the termination of your account.
I need suggestions on a place to host the video which is merely telling the truth even of the oiseaules on YouTube don't like it.

Carl_T · Post by **Carl_T** » 06 Apr 2010 01:49

Amber G. wrote:^^^Obviously my list is partial at best..my only point was that there is no monopoly of any party wrt to military service etc. Just trying to say that not all of them (or even a significantly large majority) are republicans (or democrats).

Definitely, I got you, I was just responding to Martin's post.

RamaY · Post by **RamaY** » 06 Apr 2010 01:56

sujoy wrote:Shiv,

I am happy to report that your video has been reinstated, though it had to be made age restricted.

Good job Sujoy!

Hiten · Post by **Hiten** » 06 Apr 2010 02:06

pakistan born US citizen Moeed Yusuf being appointed South Asia advisor at the United States Institute of Peace

http://www.bu.edu/today/world/2010/04/0 ... rous-place

......Into this maelstrom steps Moeed Yusuf (GRS’04,’11), who in May will become USIP’s South Asia advisor, managing its Pakistan program[??]. That program publishes books and papers on Pakistan, polls Pakistanis’ opinions, and last year ran a conflict management conference for members of parliament. ......

......Pakistan continues to argue that the United States should play a role in normalization of the Pakistan-India relationship, which we’ve shied away from, with the result that we are unable to get full support from Pakistan.

;;;;It is one of the most critical states for America, given its role in Afghanistan. But this idea that tomorrow we’ll wake up and Pakistan won’t be there, or that it will be led by a militant group that’s going to take the nukes and run away — this is hype. That’s forcing us to make policies based on this premise that all hell is going to break loose. I don’t think the situation is as bad as that. Don’t take the media too seriously, and you’ll be fine.