PAK-FA and FGFA Thread

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Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread

Postby Juggi G » 02 Sep 2011 23:13

Fifth Generation Flame-Out
OPEN Magazine
Fifth Generation Flame-Out
An incident during an air show focuses attention on India’s need for an advanced engine for the aircraft being developed jointly with Russia
By Suman Sharma
3 September 2011

Image

ZHUKOVSKY, RUSSIA ~ There was major embarrassment for Sukhoi Corporation at the recently concluded 10th International Aviation and Space Salon MAKS 2011 air show. The starboard engine of the Russian fifth generation fighter, called the PAK-FA/T-50 (Perspective Airborne Complex of Frontline Aviation) flamed out, forcing the pilot to abort the flight, in front of about 200,000 visitors. The incident took place on 17 August at the Ramenskoye airfield, Zhukovsky, Russia. Also present was the top brass of Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL), the Indian partner in an arrangement that is the most expensive Indian defence deal till date.

The Russian PAK-FA, also called T-50 prototype, is a twin-engine, single-seat stealth fighter and has a range of 5,500 km. It is designed to compete with the F-22 Raptor of the US, so far the only world’s fifth-generation fighter, and the F-35 Lightning II, now under production.

The Indian version will come up for flight certification after 2,500 hours of flying, to be completed in 25 months—which would be around the first half of 2013. The initial contract was for $11 billion, signed between India and Russia in December 2010 in Delhi. Equally divided between both countries, it included the cost of flight testing, infrastructure and design and development over 10 years. Each aircraft would cost $100 million, taking the deal value to $30 billion.

The Indian and Russian versions of the aircraft will be similar. The Indian FGFA will also have an AESA (active electronically scanned array) radar.

The accident may not impact the New Delhi-Moscow joint venture, but the message was clear. It highlighted the concerns of the Russian Air Force, which wants a more advanced engine for this aircraft, currently flying with an upgraded Sukhoi-30 engine.

HAL Chairman Ashok Nayak says, “Right now the PAK-FA is flying with an upgraded Sukhoi-30 engine, and it is likely to have its own new engine by 2018. The detailed design contract of the Indo-Russian FGFA (fifth generation fighter aircraft) programme will be concluded soon. The initial contract came into effect in February 2011, and would take 18 months. The Indian version would be a twin-seater, unlike the Russian one, but would have the basic design frame of the T-50. Certain equipment specific to the IAF’s requirements will be fitted onboard.”

According to the Sukhoi Director General Mikhail Pogosyan, the two flying prototypes do not carry a complete set of avionics and systems, like the radar suite. The third operable prototype, likely to fly by this year end, will have the radar suite, and the firing tests will begin early next year. Serial production of the PAK-FA, intended to replace the Russian Air Force’s Su-27 fighters, is expected to begin after 2016, after the completion of tests. The initial order is for 50 aircraft.

The third prototype will have the Tikhomirov’s NIIP radar suite, which will include the AESA unveiled at the MAKS-2009 show. Sukhoi officials claim that the PAK-FA’s radar signature will be similar to that of the American F-22A Raptor—the fifth generation fighter that everyone is chasing. Doubts were expressed about the absorption of the electromagnetic waves’ coatings on the airframe of the second prototype of the T-50.

The T-50 prototype is named after its trapezoid shape, and is likely to be called a Su-50 after its induction. Its current power plant is the Item 117 engine, made by NPO Saturn. But this is a temporary solution. While NPO and MMPP Salut are competing to win the engine contract, it’s still not clear if the Russian defence ministry will release funds for developing a better engine or continue with the current cheaper alternative.

The Chinese fifth generation, J-20, has already made two test flights, and hopes to go into production by 2017, while the Indian FGFA is expected to make its first flight in 2017, most likely with an existing Sukhoi engine. The Russian PAK-FA has uncertainties over its power-plant, and hopes to go into production with the existing upgraded Sukhoi engine, while a new engine would enter testing phase only in 2018, pushing the programme further back. This explains the Indian FGFA’s likely delay.

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Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread

Postby SaiK » 03 Sep 2011 01:58

The Chinese fifth generation, J-20, has already made two test flights, and hopes to go into production by 2017, while the Indian FGFA is expected to make its first flight in 2017, most likely with an existing Sukhoi engine. The Russian PAK-FA has uncertainties over its power-plant, and hopes to go into production with the existing upgraded Sukhoi engine, while a new engine would enter testing phase only in 2018, pushing the programme further back. This explains the Indian FGFA’s likely delay.


oh gawd.. china is so superior to Russia + India combined! they copy left right and center, and face raptor better than sukhois can.

what do we do? wear extra dhotis.

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Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread

Postby Jamal K. Malik » 03 Sep 2011 02:24

SaiK wrote:
The Chinese fifth generation, J-20, has already made two test flights, and hopes to go into production by 2017, while the Indian FGFA is expected to make its first flight in 2017, most likely with an existing Sukhoi engine. The Russian PAK-FA has uncertainties over its power-plant, and hopes to go into production with the existing upgraded Sukhoi engine, while a new engine would enter testing phase only in 2018, pushing the programme further back. This explains the Indian FGFA’s likely delay.


oh gawd.. china is so superior to Russia + India combined! they copy left right and center, and face raptor better than sukhois can.

what do we do? wear extra dhotis.

Sir sorry,
for extra dhotis

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Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread

Postby arnabh » 03 Sep 2011 02:48


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Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread

Postby Cosmo_R » 04 Sep 2011 03:25

"As recently said the Russian Air Force commander, Col. Gen. Alexander Zelin, the first installment of the fifth generation fighter will come to the army between 2014 and 2015.
According to the statements of senior officials of the Indian defense ministry, India intends to buy about 250 Russian aircraft. Currently two aircraft are being tested and two prototypes to be tested by the end of the year, he said the president of the Unified Construction Corporation Aeronautics.

The CACIMG cited as potential buyers of the export version of the fifth-generation fighter Algeria (in the period between 2025 and 2030), Argentina (between 2035 and 2040), Brazil (between 2030 and 2035), Venezuela (between 2027 and 2032), Vietnam (2030 to 2035), Indonesia (between 2028 and 2032) and Iran (between 2035 and 2040, if lifting the embargo on arms sales to that country). At the same relation are Kazakhstan (between 2025 and 2035), China (under certain conditions, between 2025 and 2035), Malaysia (between 2035 and 2040) and Syria (between 2025 and 2030).

http://translate.google.fr/translate?sl=pt&tl=en&js=n&prev=_t&hl=fr&ie=UTF-8&layout=2&eotf=1&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.defesanet.com.br%2Ffx2%2Fnoticia%2F2627%2FF-X2---Apresentacao-Consorcio-Rafale-

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Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread

Postby NRao » 04 Sep 2011 08:03

So, what is the story on the engine? The 117 - presently in the PAK-FA - will continue until the next gen comes out- by 2018 or so?

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Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread

Postby venku_Raj » 04 Sep 2011 09:15

At least 1000 PAK FA fighters will be manufactured until 2050

Among the possible customers of PAK FA’s export variant are: Algeria (approximate period of deliveries – 2025-2030), Argentina (2035-2040), Brazil (2030-2035), Venezuela (2027-2032), Vietnam (2030-2035), Indonesia (2028-2032), Iran (in case embargo on deliveries of arms is removed, 2035-2040), Kazakhstan (2025-2035), China (under the specific conditions, 2025-2035), Malaysia (2035-2040), Syria (2025-2030).

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Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread

Postby SaiK » 04 Sep 2011 10:21

Engine is the core of any a/c.. also note in that article, they have twist on it stealth as well.. and more so on the coatings. well, it is a genuine democratic question actually, from a different perspective though it may sound ddmish.

That engine failure is definitely a story that needs any explanations.. the video has spoken volumes. Instead, if we are interested, we should actually create a new story, since that is the most vital core for pak-fa.

The new engine is all everyone would now chase after be it India or any nation who is interested, perhaps now with an open eye after the incident.

The failure is a shame indeed.., but it is better than failing in the air, that would have been a disaster. DDMers would have ensured huge business for Raptors.

Think about Putin's face in this picture - in a reverse sense.

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Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread

Postby NRao » 04 Sep 2011 23:23

If one is talking about the engine flame-out, that is par for the course. Nothing to be ashamed about.

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Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread

Postby tejas » 05 Sep 2011 01:29

The flameout was supposedly due to a FADEC software issue. What the hell is the big effing deal? How about when it took an axe to open the canopy of a Raptor cause the canopy froze shut( and no it wasn't cold outside). The pilot was stuck inside for several hours and the cockpit was trashed.

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Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread

Postby Hiten » 05 Sep 2011 01:40

x-posting from the misc pictures thread

a collection of hi-re pictures of the PAK-FA taken during MAKS 2011

http://www.aame.in/2011/09/t-50-pak-fa- ... paper.html

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Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread

Postby NRao » 06 Sep 2011 03:30

We need to start a PAK-FA/FGFA associated technologies thread. NO discussions in that thread.

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Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread

Postby Garooda » 06 Sep 2011 23:48

tejas wrote:The flameout was supposedly due to a FADEC software issue. What the hell is the big effing deal? How about when it took an axe to open the canopy of a Raptor cause the canopy froze shut( and no it wasn't cold outside). The pilot was stuck inside for several hours and the cockpit was trashed.

I agree. People need to understand that TESTING is a lengthy process with the military testing methodologies. The PAK-FA Engine failure is not a show stopper.
It takes a lot of man hours (technical and non-technical) to successfully design and deliver the final product. You should really look at the amount of money spent by various countries and manufacturers to truely understand the time, money and monotonous testing routines that take place years before the final product is delivered.

Ofcourse the typical mindset that many individuals might have is to expect a working product for the money they paid as if it was a cheap chinese clone. If the prototype is derived without copy paste from ground up, then certainly there will be issues but they are expected positive failures.

Prototype is designed and built just for that. I can see people making a big stink if it was a production model.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prototype


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Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread

Postby NRao » 07 Sep 2011 05:19

Interesting ......................

Sept 2, 2011 :: From Russia with love: PAK FA’s debut makes Washington ponder

Russia describes its PAK FA as a fighter that “thanks to the use of complex materials and advanced technology <...> can reduce recognition by radar, optic and infrared recognition systems to a minimum.”

As for the limited optical visibility, experts largely attribute it to use of metamaterials and so-called “e-camouflage” in the more recent versions of the PAK FA. The negative refraction index of metamaterials makes them an ideal means for camouflaging military targets, as they cannot be discovered by radio reconnaissance equipment within a certain range of frequencies. Using this technology, on-board cameras record everything surrounding the aircraft, in real time mode. Supercomputers and metamaterials allow the cameras to project the image on to the aircraft’s surface, making it invisible. A similar effect was used in one James Bond movie, Die Another Day, where 007 was driving around in an Aston Martin invisible to the naked eye.


Hmmmmm.............. Very interesting indeed.

There is a first for everything I guess. ??????

FGFA can just disappear - over Isloo? Scary thought. Or over TAR? Even more scary. ................. For them I mean.


Yiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiikkkkkeeeeeeesssss.

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Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread

Postby chaitanya » 07 Sep 2011 06:17

^^^ That article is a fraud. Metamaterial based 'cloaking' is still highly experimental and has limited to no tactical use in its present form, because the cloak itself needs to take a simple geometric form (hemispheres are commonly used, for example) and cannot conform to the aircraft's skin. Not only that, if you were inside a negative-index cloak for, lets say RF, you would not be able to see outside the cloak either in the RF regime. So while no one can see you, you cant see them either....

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Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread

Postby NRao » 07 Sep 2011 06:45

Dang!!!!

I was imagining a FGFA landing in Isloo .................. nobody knowing it is there!!!

Until the pilot opens the canopy ..............................

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Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread

Postby Hiten » 07 Sep 2011 07:25

This clip is in Russian. Talks about use of powder metallurgy in constructing Aero Engines. Also has stock visuals of the PAK-FA

What does it say?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4-efeei2mcQ

Russia should've been a Commonwelth country :(


Update: Had posted that in a hurry. Did not realise capslock was on. As a result the 1st character in each sentence came out lowercase, while others in upper. Inadvertent. My bad.
Last edited by Hiten on 07 Sep 2011 07:58, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread

Postby Avid » 07 Sep 2011 07:37

^^ uh. Please do not post in caps! Is all that shouting necessary?

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Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread

Postby khukri » 07 Sep 2011 22:03

chaitanya wrote:^^^ That article is a fraud. Metamaterial based 'cloaking' is still highly experimental and has limited to no tactical use in its present form, because the cloak itself needs to take a simple geometric form (hemispheres are commonly used, for example) and cannot conform to the aircraft's skin. Not only that, if you were inside a negative-index cloak for, lets say RF, you would not be able to see outside the cloak either in the RF regime. So while no one can see you, you cant see them either....


And......

http://www.gizmag.com/adaptiv-ir-invisi ... oak/19748/

See also BAE's website for details of the ADAPTIV system

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Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread

Postby chaitanya » 07 Sep 2011 22:46

The BAE concept is very different from metamaterial based cloaking and is a lot simpler too. Active cloaking with pixels and light sources requires that you image what is behind you and project that on the surface of what you want to 'cloak'. It is similar to putting a conformal LCD on a surface and putting an image of blue sky or whatnot on it. This is mostly an integration-electronics type issue, and is far more feasible. Concepts like this have been floating around for a while.

The PAKFA article confused active and passive cloaking. Metameterial based cloaking actually deflects the incident radiation and guides it along the surface of the metamaterial such that the waves reform behind the object as if it had not been there.

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Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread

Postby Garooda » 08 Sep 2011 00:24

chaitanya wrote:The BAE concept is very different from metamaterial based cloaking and is a lot simpler too. Active cloaking with pixels and light sources requires that you image what is behind you and project that on the surface of what you want to 'cloak'. It is similar to putting a conformal LCD on a surface and putting an image of blue sky or whatnot on it. This is mostly an integration-electronics type issue, and is far more feasible. Concepts like this have been floating around for a while.

The PAKFA article confused active and passive cloaking. Metameterial based cloaking actually deflects the incident radiation and guides it along the surface of the metamaterial such that the waves reform behind the object as if it had not been there.

True.
For the time being, metamaterial invisibility cloaks are somewhat limited. They're not only small; they're limited to two dimensions -- hardly what you'd need to vanish into the scenery of a 3-D war zone. Plus, the resulting cloak would weigh more than even a full-grown wizard could hope to lug around. As a result, the technology might be better suited to applications such as hiding stationary buildings or vehicles, such as a tank.

Here is a link to the cloaking process in a nutshell for those interested. Ofcourse you can follow the links by using item # 7 in 'Inside This Article'.
http://science.howstuffworks.com/invisibility-cloak.htm

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Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread

Postby Gaur » 08 Sep 2011 01:55

Another render of FGFA. This time I have tried to go for a more realistic looking feel..hence the weathered look and the city landscape.

Image

As you can see, I have made changes to almost every aspect of PAK-FA to make it more aesthetically pleasing (IMO). Even so, I have tried to preserve the basic geometry of the aircraft.


NOTE: Only the aircraft is made by me. The background city landscape is not my render but an actual photograph.
Background Image credit:
http://www.cnsm.csulb.edu/
http://www.cnsm.csulb.edu/departments/g ... stwood.htm

PS: I searched hard for an Indian background. But good quality aerial photographs of Indian Cities were hard to find. Those I could find did not sit well with my model. Either the lightning did not match or the angle was not good for side/back profile. No matter, I will search again and perhaps the next render will be over India Gate! :D But that would have to wait for long time now. I didn't think I would ever say it but I am seriously sick of looking at this aircraft now.

indranilroy: Sorry mate, could not do a realistic golden canopy. Maybe when AMCA design is freezed. :twisted:

Bala Vignesh: Your idea was excellent but couldn't be realized from this angle. But will certainly give it a try when I attempt to render front view. :D

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Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread

Postby Kartik » 08 Sep 2011 04:21

superb job Parijat ! you're improving with each new rendering !

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Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread

Postby Cosmo_R » 08 Sep 2011 05:09

I hope we will pay the Russians in 'passively cloaked' currency because our people may not be able to see the PAK-FA/FAK-PA when it is ready.

Right now, even the Vik is passively cloaked.

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Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread

Postby tejas » 08 Sep 2011 06:53

Gaurji, gorgeous pic. I love the " worn " look to the fighter as well as the flat nozzles :)
Top notch stuff!

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Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread

Postby Indranil » 08 Sep 2011 09:00

Gaurji,

Nice render ... don't worry about the colour ... however the TVC nozzles looks really small. For example look at the TVC on the F-22.

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Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread

Postby negi » 08 Sep 2011 09:16

Gaur awesome job; is this a two seater ? The canopy on current PAKFA prototype imo is smaller and more inclined towards the front (JMT).

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Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread

Postby ranjithnath » 08 Sep 2011 10:35

superb rendering gaurji!!

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Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread

Postby aniket » 08 Sep 2011 10:58

Pure excellence

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Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread

Postby krishnan » 08 Sep 2011 11:51

Who is that "dynasty weapon". Some chinese dork?

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Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread

Postby Gaur » 08 Sep 2011 19:51

Thanks a lot guys. I really appreciate the feedback! :D

indranilroy,
Yeah, nozzles were really a last minute quick fix job. Initially I had imagined them to be somewhat like YF-23's nozzles. There are some really nice concepts flowing around the internet like that. Also, cockpit interior is mostly basic geometry shapes...so had to hide and deceive using very dark canopy and PS. :mrgreen: But have to leave something for AMCA right? :twisted:

negi,
Yeah, its a twin seater. And the canopy is somewhat lifted out from Mig-29UB (old one). If I had time, I would have liked to model a more angular canopy. :)

krishnan,
That's internet for you.:-)

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Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread

Postby manum » 08 Sep 2011 20:05

Gaur guess its OT...

which software you use for modelling? I use rhinoceros...but I model buildings...

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Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread

Postby Gaur » 08 Sep 2011 20:45

manum wrote:Gaur guess its OT...

which software you use for modelling? I use rhinoceros...but I model buildings...

3ds Max. Its highly effective for hard surface modelling. If you an architect, you should definitely check it out. It has an amazing and huge built in material and texture library for architectural purpose. Plus, you can just select your light from menu like light type (fluorescent, halogen, xenon etc for interiors and even a sun for exterior), wattage etc. So, your workload is seriously reduced and you get totally physically accurate render scene. I am not an architect myself, but I know that first hand because I had started learning 3ds Max designing interior scenes. Its a delight. But then again, I have never used rhino 3d myself, so I don't know how different it is. So, it may take some time getting used to a new interface.

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Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread

Postby manum » 08 Sep 2011 20:53

gimme ur mail Id i'll send you few pics...modeled on Rhino...

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Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread

Postby Gaur » 08 Sep 2011 22:27

<deleted>
Last edited by Gaur on 09 Sep 2011 01:49, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread

Postby manum » 08 Sep 2011 22:46

mail sent...

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Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread

Postby vishvak » 15 Sep 2011 21:17

A promotional video of Sukhoi Su-35BM & T-50 PAK FA. Has some maneuvers.
Please delete if already present/upto-not-good.


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Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread

Postby SaiK » 17 Sep 2011 20:18

nice..

hope they get that engine issue sorted out soon, and get back to fame.. we need this puppy going great guns.


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