PAK-FA and FGFA Thread

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 23 Dec 2011 07:33

^^^^

PAK FA was expected to use 5th generation engine custom-built for Russia’s fifth-generation T-50 jet fighters. But it is unlikely, Igor Korotchenko says:

"The engine used by the jet fighters will not meet the needs of the Sukhoi PAK FA. These are the engines of completely different types. A new engine should be developed from scratch, possibly, using technological advantages of the Tupolev Tu-160. The engine generates a larger thrust and has a complex automation system, to facilitate a number of flight modes such as maneuverability. It is expected that each engine will be able to independently vector its thrust upwards, downward or side to side. Vectoring one engine up with the other one down can produce a twisting force."

The new jet fighter will combine the advantages of the Tupolev-160 and of modern stealth technologies, including the 5th generation radio electronic systems, airborne radar facilities, and the arrangement of the flight deck.

That speaks volume about when the 5th gen engine may be ready. The current engine lacks both in next generation performance and stealth.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 23 Dec 2011 11:01

we had better get cracking on the AMCA using a mix of indian, israeli and western inputs. the engine should either be the kaveri-snecma (when it arrives@maturity - hopefully in 7-10 yrs) and interim can be the M88-4 which is apprently ready for the latest block of Rafale. I dont think we'd need 2 x GE414 for the size of the AMCA it will be too powerful.

goal should be reasonable not pie in the sky - a stealth Rafale with internal bay can be the benchmark in terms of payload, performance....if we go rafale for the MRCA we can ask the french to produce a Silent Rafale for the later blocks and use some of that stuff like avionics, CFTs and stealth weapon stations on AMCA....

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 19 Jan 2012 09:56

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-kY4sMz-vdNQ/T ... e_fist.JPG
The engines looks like cigars.

tejas · Post by **tejas** » 20 Jan 2012 07:06

From milphotos.net

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 20 Jan 2012 07:14

wonder if they have one done with completely covered with RAM skins for those engine bumps

tejas · Post by **tejas** » 20 Jan 2012 07:44

Self deleted

tejas · Post by **tejas** » 20 Jan 2012 07:47

^^^ Like dis? Here is the link boss: http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/sh ... FA/page430

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 20 Jan 2012 08:06

awesome..

but... it does not explain the 360* tvc then.. mmm.

may be this one is more functional looking:
http://img9.imageshack.us/img9/9031/pakfapainted.jpg

that could be still photo-shopped to provide a dark grayish coating to those thrust vanes.

tejas · Post by **tejas** » 20 Jan 2012 08:30

Your pic is photo shopped. The pic i put up is obviuosly fan art but that doesn't stop them from looking awesome

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 20 Jan 2012 08:39

I dont know why the Rus prefer to keep a long part of the engine uncovered. even the old F15 has it covered up. http://www.militaryfactory.com/aircraft ... gle_18.jpg
http://media.defenseindustrydaily.com/i ... 007_lg.jpg

koti · Post by **koti** » 20 Jan 2012 09:17

SaiK wrote:
koti wrote:Wouldn't the RAM coatings and shaped exteriors effect the efficiency of the Aircraft's radar?
kevlar! this is what goes into nose cone section, and permeates all radar waves. the nose will not be coated.

this is the reason, I always think about internal shape deflectors rather externals. we could have a composite kevlar all round skins, and internal deflection geometry with RAM coating. Internal RAM coating also increases stealth and wear/tear of the coatings, while external kevlars can take any shape to aerodynamic requirements.

This is the first time I am hearing about Kevlar as radome.
Can you provide any links you have on this?
TIA.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 20 Jan 2012 09:24

bhai saab! tejas ko bhi bool gaya aap?

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 20 Jan 2012 09:46

No news of FGFA?

We are going backward.

tejas · Post by **tejas** » 20 Jan 2012 09:48

Sorry SaiK I understand Telugu and English onlee.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 20 Jan 2012 10:17

I was onlee mentioning to check on LCA Tejas designs. All it takes is a few TFTA tweaking, and those internal metallic structures to deflect radar waves. voila! we have stealth.. the reason I asked many sometime back how many would believe that after FoC, our tejas can leap to become stealthier a/c.. almost everyone went - it is a joke.

Just think about the radome alone, that has to allow/permeate all radio frequencies, and kevlar composite is enough to shape your a/c any which way you want. Now internally, we can come with intriguingly shaped design of various parts at various angles. perhaps, the kevlar-composite skins could be back filled with deflector shaped serrated thin lightweight film panels (like al or cu foils) to deflect away from radiation source/45*.

sumshyam · Post by **sumshyam** » 21 Jan 2012 09:37

A would be cockpit...!

http://img-fotki.yandex.ru/get/5802/wai ... 365ed_orig

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 21 Jan 2012 09:50

Why do Russians like turquoise blue?

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 21 Jan 2012 11:58

perhaps a lot of stock is left over from a cold war production run. they are a blue - their flag has blue, their navy has blue jacket and white n blue striped t-shirt, their AF cadets like most countries wear blue...

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 21 Jan 2012 12:16

SaiK wrote:Why do Russians like turquoise blue?

Makes transition of eye movement from inside the cockpit to outside much easier specially at night , subconsciously the colour has soothing effect during stressfull moment like combat.

The bluish/green colour is standard on all Russian Civil and Military cockpit and as such has been seen on aircraft used after WW2.

Not surprisingly you can see those colour even in cockpit of very modern civil aircraft like Sukhoi Superjet

http://www.airshownews.eu/wp-content/ga ... ockpit.jpg

Badar · Post by **Badar** » 21 Jan 2012 12:48

Singha wrote:we had better get cracking on the AMCA using a mix of indian, israeli and western inputs. the engine should either be the kaveri-snecma (when it arrives@maturity - hopefully in 7-10 yrs) and interim can be the M88-4 which is apprently ready for the latest block of Rafale. I dont think we'd need 2 x GE414 for the size of the AMCA it will be too powerful. goal should be reasonable not pie in the sky - a stealth Rafale with internal bay can be the benchmark in terms of payload, performance....if we go rafale for the MRCA we can ask the french to produce a Silent Rafale for the later blocks and use some of that stuff like avionics, CFTs and stealth weapon stations on AMCA....

Singha, Instead of AMCA how about Seinga (Seine-Ganga) the fashionable upscale cousin of Neuron?

Imagine the FGFA as the gang leader, with a harem of neuron's to do the dirty work for him up close and personal?

whats with equipping the PAK-FA with "artificial intellect". Aren't intellectuals bourgeois? #pj

No, not any more. Bandit capitalism is where it's at comrade.
-
Flight Lieutenant Sher Singh dozing comfortably in his FGFA at 35 kilo feet over tibet, sipping mocha, his feet up on the HUD, reading an girly magazine on his full color 3D HMS. Viktoria, his AI pipes up.

Viktoria: Beep Beep Comrade. Bogeys inbound at 50nm.
SS: track 'em, my love. {flips page on his HMS to a double spread feature}
Viktoria: Bandit ID'd as J-20. It's on full AB heading for us.
SS frowns but keeps reading and sipping : Whats the Pk now on the R-37 envelope?
Viktoria: 0.25 on PRH mode comrade.
SS: hmm, What about the ARH mode, that should be significantly better in this case?
Viktoria: True. But latest satcom update informs me that Rosoboronexport has unilaterally upped the cost of ARH modes for the R-37. If you intend to use it in this fashion, please swipe your credit card under the LCD panel and punch in your CVV code.
SS yawns, stretches and puts away his coffee and sits up: Go to guns vikki. You, me and a cattle prod have a date when we return to base.
Victoria: That's no way to talk to a lady. Let me see if I can wrangle a discount.
-

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 21 Jan 2012 15:05

Tejas,lovely pics and the camouflage paint job is superb! It really blends in with the land below I must later on post a pic of a shot by a birdwatcher pal of mine of a moth with an unbelievable camouflage pattern,which would be an excellent one to copy for sev. military applications.

tsarkar · Post by **tsarkar** » 21 Jan 2012 19:42

Badar wrote:Flight Lieutenant Sher Singh dozing comfortably in his FGFA at 35 kilo feet over tibet, sipping mocha, his feet up on the HUD, reading an girly magazine on his full color 3D HMS. Viktoria, his AI pipes up.

Viktoria: Beep Beep Comrade. Bogeys inbound at 50nm.
SS: track 'em, my love. {flips page on his HMS to a double spread feature}
Viktoria: Bandit ID'd as J-20. It's on full AB heading for us.
SS frowns but keeps reading and sipping : Whats the Pk now on the R-37 envelope?
Viktoria: 0.25 on PRH mode comrade.
SS: hmm, What about the ARH mode, that should be significantly better in this case?
Viktoria: True. But latest satcom update informs me that Rosoboronexport has unilaterally upped the cost of ARH modes for the R-37. If you intend to use it in this fashion, please swipe your credit card under the LCD panel and punch in your CVV code.
SS yawns, stretches and puts away his coffee and sits up: Go to guns vikki. You, me and a cattle prod have a date when we return to base.
Victoria: That's no way to talk to a lady. Let me see if I can wrangle a discount.
-

Badr, you may be aware, the recent marketing fads used by A&D companies are scenarios, showing their wares at their best. Seen in that context, your scenario is the best 5th and 6th generation yarn around

aharam · Post by **aharam** » 22 Jan 2012 06:13

Badar wrote:
Singha wrote:we had better get cracking on the AMCA using a mix of indian, israeli and western inputs. the engine should either be the kaveri-snecma (when it arrives@maturity - hopefully in 7-10 yrs) and interim can be the M88-4 which is apprently ready for the latest block of Rafale. I dont think we'd need 2 x GE414 for the size of the AMCA it will be too powerful. goal should be reasonable not pie in the sky - a stealth Rafale with internal bay can be the benchmark in terms of payload, performance....if we go rafale for the MRCA we can ask the french to produce a Silent Rafale for the later blocks and use some of that stuff like avionics, CFTs and stealth weapon stations on AMCA....
Singha, Instead of AMCA how about Seinga (Seine-Ganga) the fashionable upscale cousin of Neuron?

Imagine the FGFA as the gang leader, with a harem of neuron's to do the dirty work for him up close and personal?

whats with equipping the PAK-FA with "artificial intellect". Aren't intellectuals bourgeois? #pj
No, not any more. Bandit capitalism is where it's at comrade.
-
Flight Lieutenant Sher Singh dozing comfortably in his FGFA at 35 kilo feet over tibet, sipping mocha, his feet up on the HUD, reading an girly magazine on his full color 3D HMS. Viktoria, his AI pipes up.

Viktoria: Beep Beep Comrade. Bogeys inbound at 50nm.
SS: track 'em, my love. {flips page on his HMS to a double spread feature}
Viktoria: Bandit ID'd as J-20. It's on full AB heading for us.
SS frowns but keeps reading and sipping : Whats the Pk now on the R-37 envelope?
Viktoria: 0.25 on PRH mode comrade.
SS: hmm, What about the ARH mode, that should be significantly better in this case?
Viktoria: True. But latest satcom update informs me that Rosoboronexport has unilaterally upped the cost of ARH modes for the R-37. If you intend to use it in this fashion, please swipe your credit card under the LCD panel and punch in your CVV code.
SS yawns, stretches and puts away his coffee and sits up: Go to guns vikki. You, me and a cattle prod have a date when we return to base.
Victoria: That's no way to talk to a lady. Let me see if I can wrangle a discount.
-

Damn funny Badar. With iPhone Siri style technology this could almost be true.

Cheers
Aharam

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 22 Jan 2012 12:53

maybe should bulk buy some discount rusarm e-coupons off flipkart or amazon - vs having them shipped in paper format. every plane would have a demat account to be debited by satcom (with some overdraft facility)....

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 22 Jan 2012 13:23

classic ! x-posting on kitaab-e-chehra

Badar · Post by **Badar** » 22 Jan 2012 20:45

Rahul M wrote:classic ! x-posting on kitaab-e-chehra

Does BR have a facebook account? Just did a search and saw a bunch of squatter accounts.

sumshyam · Post by **sumshyam** » 22 Jan 2012 22:22

An article about NPO Saturn's R&D during . Somebody translate it..!

member_20317 · Post by **member_20317** » 22 Jan 2012 23:05

sumshyam wrote:A would be cockpit...!

http://img-fotki.yandex.ru/get/5802/wai ... 365ed_orig

Which of the two is the Artificial Horizon?

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 22 Jan 2012 23:18

sumshyam wrote:An article about NPO Saturn's R&D during . Somebody translate it..!

From someone who translate that on mp.net

Item 117 being in-flight tested with more than 100 flights achieved.
Item 117S being bench tested for endurance. 1000 hours of testing achieved.
Item 30 design draft being finalized with Saturn acting as the main driver for 70% of parts.

Here is official report in english from their website

http://npo-saturn.ru/?rssid=1326906923&sat=6

Kartik · Post by **Kartik** » 23 Jan 2012 01:15

Austin wrote:
SaiK wrote:Why do Russians like turquoise blue?
Makes transition of eye movement from inside the cockpit to outside much easier specially at night , subconsciously the colour has soothing effect during stressfull moment like combat.

The bluish/green colour is standard on all Russian Civil and Military cockpit and as such has been seen on aircraft used after WW2

so said the worst ergonomic designers the world has known, the Soviets.

I don't know about that shade of blue, but I'm sure pilots would've appreciated better placement of instruments, less clutter in the cockpit and a good view of the outside for good situational awareness as compared to a shade of blue to subconsciously help reduce my stress. Strangely enough, the factors that consciously increase stress and workload somehow didn't matter much to Soviet designers.

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 23 Jan 2012 01:49

Additionally, it is strange that the developers around the world would not adopt this easy to follow example ... afterall, if it is less stressful, everybody in the world would want it.

anjan · Post by **anjan** » 23 Jan 2012 02:44

indranilroy wrote:Additionally, it is strange that the developers around the world would not adopt this easy to follow example ... afterall, if it is less stressful, everybody in the world would want it.

FWIW I recall reading that a lot of research went into that colour. Your answer is probably along the same lines as why the underside of fighters aren't painted pink even though that would be much the best camo colour.

Incidentally I know the Douglas DC-9 has the same blue/green colour. See, the TFTA yanks do it too.

Cain Marko · Post by **Cain Marko** » 23 Jan 2012 02:53

At the same time, it could also be said that the so called "worst designers in the world" might have done some study to have come to said conclusion and did not just arbitrarily put that color. Ergonomics/pilot comfort were certainly not their strengths according to many, but perhaps they were limited by the kind of h/w available to them, and under the circumstances did the best that they could - the idea that they did not research cockpit setups/pilot comfort as previous comments tend to suggest is ridiculous.

Quite importantly, some of their designs certainly were far better in terms of comfort as well vis a vis western counterparts. IIRC, Vishnu Som during his ride in the MiG-35 has mentioned that the 35's helmet was more comfortable than any other he has worn.

Indranil, even if it indeed is true that particular color is most soothing, I doubt NATO countries would have ever followed suit - it might have something to do with face saving and one upmanship between the two blocs during the cold war.

Frankly, from what I have seen - soviet cockpit designs vs. similar generation NATO counterparts were not so way behind, and often made up for the trouble with some other nifty performance feature such as the HMD. A cursory look at the MiG-29 vs. F-16 (which btw, was unique in its time thanks to the bubble canopy) vs. M2k shows that while the 29 might look more cluttered, the difference is not critical. And as many a DACT fight has shown, at the hands of well trained pilots, the 29 arguably performed its primary mission of A2A better than the other two. There might have been a distinct gap between cockpit layouts of the west and russian designs till the 70s, but thereafter, the russkis caught up and as of today, the difference seems rather negligible.

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 23 Jan 2012 04:36

Cain Marko wrote: Indranil, even if it indeed is true that particular color is most soothing, I doubt NATO countries would have ever followed suit - it might have something to do with face saving and one upmanship between the two blocs during the cold war.

Could be a very valid reason.

anjan wrote:
indranilroy wrote:Additionally, it is strange that the developers around the world would not adopt this easy to follow example ... afterall, if it is less stressful, everybody in the world would want it.
FWIW I recall reading that a lot of research went into that colour. Your answer is probably along the same lines as why the underside of fighters aren't painted pink even though that would be much the best camo colour.

Incidentally I know the Douglas DC-9 has the same blue/green colour. See, the TFTA yanks do it too.

Sirjee, why this flame-baiting? I was never exalting any side. It was a genuine question in my opinion! I will side step your condescension and would actually be very grateful if you could point me to the studies that you were talking about.

nachiket · Post by **nachiket** » 23 Jan 2012 05:19

I don't know, the LCA's dull grey looks somehow more soothing to me..

Cain Marko · Post by **Cain Marko** » 23 Jan 2012 07:03

^ won't disagree there Nachiket - I think the LCA designers have done a fabulous job in considering pilot needs/comfort. I just hope they order this bird and its different iterations in larger amounts, more appropriate to the ahem, "status" of the up and coming "world power" or at least commensurate with one of the largest AFs in the world that is surrounded by two rather belligerent neighbors!

Btw, I think the Russki cockpit color does tend to make the instrumentation stand out more clearly in the background, I have seen some F-15 cockpit pics that tend to make the instrumentation some what blend with the background - jmt.

I wonder if this is "clean" enough for Kartik

:

Kartik · Post by **Kartik** » 23 Jan 2012 07:04

Cain Marko wrote:At the same time, it could also be said that the so called "worst designers in the world" might have done some study to have come to said conclusion and did not just arbitrarily put that color. Ergonomics/pilot comfort were certainly not their strengths according to many, but perhaps they were limited by the kind of h/w available to them, and under the circumstances did the best that they could - the idea that they did not research cockpit setups/pilot comfort as previous comments tend to suggest is ridiculous.

I don't buy that. What additional h/w did Saab have at its disposal when it came up with the Draken's cockpit back in the late 1950-early 1960s? Even today I cannot but admire how well designed it was, clean, non cluttered with a very good view for the pilot to boot. Quite a lot like the Mirage-3, which also had good forward view and while more cluttered than the Draken cockpit, was still better than the MiG-21.

And then compare it to the MiG-21 FL's cockpit

or the Su-7's cockpit

The Soviet equipment was good, but there was a genuine lack of emphasis on pilot comfort which continued through till the 1970s-80s. for e.g. IAF Su-7 pilots lost kilos of their weight after missions thanks to the lack of A/C on board. As written Sqdn Ldr OJ DSena wrote

The SU – 7 lacked a decent air - conditioning system, so when we landed, had we squeezed out the perspiration from our overalls into the Jamnagar reservoir/s, it would have solved the Saurashtra drought crisis for the next decade!

Cain Marko wrote: Indranil, even if it indeed is true that particular color is most soothing, I doubt NATO countries would have ever followed suit - it might have something to do with face saving and one upmanship between the two blocs during the cold war.

Why then do current Aeroflot MS-21 cockpits not adopt that colour instead of a more pleasing light gray?

What stops us from putting that colour inside our Tejas cockpits? We don't have any such hangups with the Russians that the West may be considered as having. Besides, if there was any truth to that theory, I'm sure that people would put it, considering that any advantage for the pilot would be considered worthwhile.

Kartik · Post by **Kartik** » 23 Jan 2012 07:12

nachiket wrote:I don't know, the LCA's dull grey looks somehow more soothing to me..

IMO, and this is definitely my own - screw the colour (any light shade will do), concentrate on the layout of the dials, switches and instruments, declutter it as much as is possible without deleting important instruments, give the pilot a decent view of the outside.. and once you've done that, you've at least reduced mental fatigue a lot more than by just putting turquoise colour in the cockpit.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 23 Jan 2012 08:25

someone should have showed that Su7 photo to the Mahdi as a example of cockpit design

I am sure Mahdi would have volunteered / demanded on the spot to be allowed to clean it up.

Kartik · Post by **Kartik** » 23 Jan 2012 08:27

whos the Mahdi?