PAK-FA and FGFA Thread

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Austin
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Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread

Postby Austin » 03 Jan 2013 09:57

This has been mentioned before umpteen times.

Total R&D Cost of FGFA is valued at $10 billion with 50-50 spent by both sides so each side will spend $5 billion each.

Cost of PAK-FA R&D with prototypes and 1st stage engine is valued at $10 Billion spent jointly by Russian MOD ,Sukhoi and Ministry of Industry that funds engine development.

2nd stage engine will cost the russian $ 2 billion funded by Ministry of Industry.

Most like $ 5 billion on FGFA will be spent on building and flight testing the prototypes , 2 PAK-FA prototypes are to be tested in India.
For TOT and customisation of FGFA to IAF needs and building infrastructure to lic built the aircraft at HAL facility.

With sticker price at $100 million today and plans to built 214 FGFA in next 15 years starting 2020 and taking military inflation into account for the same period the total cost of building 214 FGFA in India is valued at $35 billion over a period of 15-20 years.

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Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread

Postby Singha » 03 Jan 2013 10:08

yeah but will Rus transfer the core techs of the 5th gen engine and aesa radar? under su30 deal the key RF section of Bars is supplied by tikhomirov with no tot and neither has making parts for al31fp helped us on kaveri else we wouldnt be running to snecma for materials tech now.

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Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread

Postby Austin » 03 Jan 2013 10:31

You probably got the wrong impression of what TOT means , TOT means it helps the customer maintain the product better without the need to run to OEM for 1 or 2nd line of maintenance,repair that can now be done say at HAL without the need to fly that out to customer place.

TOT does not mean you can use that technology for your other programs , if that were to be the case we wouldnt be looking at tie up with Snecma for Kaveri program when TOT is part of Rafale deal or we could have used AL-31FP technology for Kaveri program by now.

Using Technology for other programs would be violation of IPR even if that was to be possible , The OEM would send us the tools and machinary to make the necessary component say for eg hot parts of engine , with TOT we can use local materials to make the hot parts under the supervision of OEM which would certify or qualify the product in the end and we pay the lic fees for it , in good old days when TOT was not part of the deal and only lic agreement was critical technology was outrightly imported or we would import the raw materials from OEM and would build the components here according to lic design provided.

So yes the Russian would transfer technology that has been agreed upon but that would be to better maintain the FGFA and develop the 1st or 2nd line of maintenance,repair for the product , same will be with French Rafale TOT deal

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Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread

Postby Indranil » 03 Jan 2013 11:05

Yes Austin Ji,

But apparently the ToT for Su-30s tires were never made. And that are just tires!

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Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread

Postby Zynda » 03 Jan 2013 11:38

Austin,
Thats a very good explanation of ToT. Should be pasted in newbie FAQ thread as well

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Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread

Postby Austin » 03 Jan 2013 12:48

indranilroy wrote:Yes Austin Ji,

But apparently the ToT for Su-30s tires were never made. And that are just tires!


You mean the issue mentioned here http://www.outlookindia.com/printarticle.aspx?237154

Do you really get TOT for every thing i dont think so , You cant set up a parallel manufacturing capacity for Su-30 or Rafale or FGFA in India , You just take TOT for what you think is critical and can be cheaper to make here for the rest you import as that would turn out to be cheaper.

From what I know even the Deep Engine TOT for AL-31F happened last year and there was a delay in absorbing technology and lic manuf it from local procured materials.

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Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread

Postby NRao » 03 Jan 2013 18:56

The ToT IP protects one to one copy. So, SCB ToT would prevent a client from duplicating it to make parts for other products. However, a process - say of making specialized metals - can be duplicated. So, if ToT teaches one to make a particular alloy that process can be used to make other alloys. Which is why I feel that ToT providers do not part with everything - even Russia did not, even though they too called it ToT. The original maker protects some aspects of the ToT to prevent misuse. China is a great example. They have managed to duplicate a lot, but not the critical technologies - engines is an example.

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Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread

Postby Will » 04 Jan 2013 00:57

tushar_m wrote:P.S what can we call this big brother of tejas ????



I hope its not something as prissy sounding as Tejas :evil: . It needs to have some dham in it!!!

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Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread

Postby Indranil » 04 Jan 2013 01:44

I think Ojhas rhymes and matches the characteristics :P

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Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread

Postby Austin » 17 Jan 2013 17:42

Russian T-50 made its first long flight - Rogozin

"Promising aviation complex tactical aircraft (PAK FA) T-50 after the first solo flight from the Far East landed in Zhukovsky," - he wrote in his microblog on twitter.

Deputy Prime Minister noted that the aircraft is equipped with almost the full avionics and surveillance and attack systems.

"This is a major breakthrough! Machine broke 7000 km, making the road to the capital of two landing in Abakan and Chelyabinsk. Congratulations team of developers and testers" - said Rogozin.


Image

tushar_m

Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread

Postby tushar_m » 17 Jan 2013 20:57

PAK-FA team please test it from russia to banglore from 8-10th feb we are waiting........................... :wink:

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Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread

Postby SaiK » 17 Jan 2013 21:42

I wish they maintain the 3D 360* axis TVC over the 2D. The stealth skin can be made for the rare with next generation techniques. We/they (whos is doing this ?) should be now actually having few pieces here testing our internal puppies. what is the agreement here? when are they going to tot and begin the works. Or is this all another sham for public natak.?

we need to have the 30-50k level understanding on the project on RTI.. they can keep the secrets inside and exposing only 50k level details for project/product dev perspective for the public scrutiny.

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Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread

Postby Austin » 17 Jan 2013 22:12

Video of T-50-4 during its long distance flight

http://youtu.be/R_nWG1Rgpl4

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Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread

Postby svinayak » 17 Jan 2013 22:22

NRao wrote:The ToT IP protects one to one copy. So, SCB ToT would prevent a client from duplicating it to make parts for other products. However, a process - say of making specialized metals - can be duplicated. So, if ToT teaches one to make a particular alloy that process can be used to make other alloys. Which is why I feel that ToT providers do not part with everything - even Russia did not, even though they too called it ToT. The original maker protects some aspects of the ToT to prevent misuse. China is a great example. They have managed to duplicate a lot, but not the critical technologies - engines is an example.


They have all the technology required for the engine. They could have made the engine but they have not tried it.
They have only tried to copy them. Is it because they dont have the fundamental science expertise or is it some strategic reason.
Did the major countries blocked something which Chinese cannot use it

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Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread

Postby SaiK » 17 Jan 2013 22:24

On a copy mode, one can only copy it. It takes to first principles of design to think even modifying complex engineering components of advanced jet engines. Not a joke!

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Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread

Postby svinayak » 17 Jan 2013 22:27

That is true!


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Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread

Postby Austin » 20 Jan 2013 15:58

PAK-FA Radar Test in Anechoic chamber
http://www.pixic.ru/i/H060p0x7M0O2Q3N1.png

T-50-4 High Res
http://i.imgur.com/txD1vg6.jpg

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Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread

Postby member_23694 » 20 Jan 2013 16:10

Austin wrote:T-50-4 High Res
http://i.imgur.com/txD1vg6.jpg


can't they have a sleeker engine nozzle....doesn't get along with the rest of the plane :roll:

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Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread

Postby Singha » 20 Jan 2013 17:00

is irbis-E going to be the radar or something else?

Austin
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Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread

Postby Austin » 20 Jan 2013 17:37

PAK-FA AESA has been documented for a long time now , Tikhomirov NIIP PAK-FA AESA

http://www.ausairpower.net/APA-Flanker- ... ocId533477

Another beter quality video of T-50-4

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CeYyLNjxkHk

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Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread

Postby shiv » 20 Jan 2013 18:15

Will wrote:
tushar_m wrote:P.S what can we call this big brother of tejas ????



I hope its not something as prissy sounding as Tejas :evil: . It needs to have some dham in it!!!


heh heh! Actually Tejas is a good name - its just that we are unaccustomed to reading Sanskrit meanings the way they were meant. Pisk wise we tend to go more for what we have been accustomed to considering as "fearsome" or "awe inspiring". Tejas does not cut it although it's not so bad.

Vaman Shivram Apte's Sanskrit English dictionary lists the meanings of Tejas, among other things as: "Brillance, splendour, might, prowess, strength, strength of character, virile" etc

No worse than "arrow", "sparrow" "viper/sidewinder", "lightning" "goshawk"

If someone called a weapon "apple", "pudding" "sugar pie" or "kheer" or something then we have an issue JMHO

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Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread

Postby SaiK » 20 Jan 2013 18:39

Austin wrote:Another beter quality video of T-50-4

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CeYyLNjxkHk


note the rearward radar symbol! 8) so, both rear and forward has gone "hot nose"!

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Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread

Postby Arunkumar » 20 Jan 2013 19:09

So 4 radars in total, assuming 2 under the wings. Engine must be monster to power all those electronics.

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Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread

Postby NRao » 20 Jan 2013 20:52

arvin wrote:So 4 radars in total, assuming 2 under the wings. Engine must be monster to power all those electronics.


The PAK-FA/FGFA is supposed to have conformal radars. Not sure if that has changed.

The engine they are using, if all goes well, should be replaced with a PAK-FA specific "5th" gen engine. It is my impression that India is actually funding this new engine too.

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Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread

Postby SaiK » 20 Jan 2013 21:22

I don't think I read about conformal radars.. did you mean the L wala on the slats?

the shapes for the front and rear does have to be capitalized and used well. radar positions will not change that random is my understanding..

may be you are talking about conformal passive receivers for track and scan like in raptor. Not sure, I heard this as well.

?

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Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread

Postby NRao » 20 Jan 2013 21:54

http://idp.justthe80.com/world-defense- ... aesa-radar

The Tikhomirov-NIIP AESA radar is being developed for use on the PAK-FA / T-50 fifth generation fighter being developed by Sukhoi in Russia. The radar was first unveiled at MAKS 2009.

The 1,500-element array radar antenna is a slight ellipse, likely reflecting the cross section of the PAK-FA nose.

Assuming the arm span of the person removing the antenna cover in the video is 2 m, the antenna ellipse appears to be a little over 1m in diameter.

NIIP officials indicated that they looked at a pivoting antenna to increase the angular coverage of the electronically swept beams but opted for a fixed antenna. The PAK-FA will use secondary conformal array antennas to provide additional angular coverage.


Also there are very good reasons why not to compare the PAK-FA one-to-one with the Raptor. They are designed with totally diff things in mind. As an example:

The Russians say, unlike the Raptor, which is designed to evade ground radar, the T-50 is honed for detecting the Raptor earlier and then engaging it in close combat.

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Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread

Postby Austin » 20 Jan 2013 22:14

NRao wrote:The Russians say, unlike the Raptor, which is designed to evade ground radar, the T-50 is honed for detecting the Raptor earlier and then engaging it in close combat.


The Russians never claimed such things the author of the article says thats :)

Here is what Putin said

“This machine will be superior to our main competitor, the F-22, in terms of maneuverability, weaponry and range,” Putin told the pilot after the flight, according to an account on the government website.

Putin said the plane would cost up to three times less than similar aircraft in the West and could remain in service for 30 to 35 years with upgrades, according to the report.”

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Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread

Postby Lalmohan » 20 Jan 2013 22:40

shiv wrote:
No worse than "arrow", "sparrow" "viper/sidewinder", "lightning" "goshawk"

If someone called a weapon "apple", "pudding" "sugar pie" or "kheer" or something then we have an issue JMHO


so going by kareena's dialogue in "3 idiots", we need gujerati food names for our weapons/birds!

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Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread

Postby SaiK » 21 Jan 2013 00:18

So, for pak-fa (fgfa), AAM with a range 100 miles is a must to tackle raptor, say if fgfa radars can lock on them. It would be interesting if there comparison reports on L-band signature on composite skins of raptor type of target available for public satisfaction onlee.

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Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread

Postby Gurinder P » 21 Jan 2013 03:50

Lalmohan wrote:
shiv wrote:
No worse than "arrow", "sparrow" "viper/sidewinder", "lightning" "goshawk"

If someone called a weapon "apple", "pudding" "sugar pie" or "kheer" or something then we have an issue JMHO


so going by kareena's dialogue in "3 idiots", we need gujerati food names for our weapons/birds!



I'm thinking Ladoo guided bombs, Aloo gobhi long range missile, Samosa air to ground missile, and finally Dhosa bomb

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Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread

Postby SaiK » 21 Jan 2013 03:59

good.. you did not go after the pindi channa guided munitions.

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Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread

Postby Gurinder P » 21 Jan 2013 07:19

SaiK wrote:good.. you did not go after the pindi channa guided munitions.


That can be used for guided cluster munitions :D

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Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread

Postby Austin » 21 Jan 2013 10:26

A nice and updated FAQ on PAK-FA .....Use your friendly English translator has many good details.

PAK FA. Frequently Asked Questions and Answers

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Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread

Postby SaiK » 21 Jan 2013 18:44

which vtol a/c is this?
http://funkyimg.com/u2/2017/977/89897935.jpg

JSF does not look like that.

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Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread

Postby SaiK » 21 Jan 2013 18:46

It would be interesting to know if pak-fa skin permeates all radiation bandwidth but internally blocks them:
http://funkyimg.com/u2/2019/543/118974w1u5qv.jpg

This is futuristic! that we should imitate and innovate on.

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Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread

Postby sarabpal.s » 21 Jan 2013 18:47

SaiK wrote:which vtol a/c is this?
http://funkyimg.com/u2/2017/977/89897935.jpg

JSF does not look like that.

check ur link hotlink not allowed

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Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread

Postby darshand » 21 Jan 2013 19:22

SaiK wrote:which vtol a/c is this?
http://funkyimg.com/u2/2017/977/89897935.jpg

JSF does not look like that.


That is the JSF.

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Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread

Postby SaiK » 21 Jan 2013 23:41

Image

Image

mm.. may be, I was confused.

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Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread

Postby Austin » 24 Jan 2013 13:45

Armament PAK FA successfully tested

SC "Corporation" Tactical Missiles "has successfully implemented a test plan and prepare for mass production of new aircraft weapons, including fighter 5 th generation (PAK FA), said chief executive officer Boris Obnosov.

"The development of weapons systems PAK FA is in accordance with the schedule, which is designed to provide timely, given the country's leadership serial delivery of the combat vehicle in parade of the Russian Air Force, as well as our foreign partners - India," - said B.Obnosov.

He noted that "a number of weapons systems for fighter of the 5th generation are pre-tested on other types of aircraft, which act as a flying laboratory."

"As the number of arriving at the test range aircraft PAK FA test program aircraft weapons have increasingly been going on the main type of aircraft," - said B.Obnosov.

According to him, "for a number of products are in the final testing stage for him is a preliminary preparation for mass production, on the other - trials are ongoing."

"Completed tests missiles Kh-31PD, RVV-MD, RVV-SD and RVV-BD. Output - X-31AD. I note that the new export development meet the highest world standards, and in some aspects superior to them. It has no analogues in the world guided missile HAEDAT, have high efficiency at large distances to targets. In place of a uniform X-35E antiship guided missile comes a new generation of X-35UE, which greatly enhances the combat capabilities of shipboard type "Uranus" and land "Ball." Guided missile X-35UE nothing inferior to the latest versions of the U.S. "Harpoon" and superior to other well-known in the world of missiles of this class, including the French "Exocet" - said B.Obnosov.


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