PAK-FA and FGFA Thread

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Austin
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Re: PAK-FA Thread - First flight

Post by Austin »

3rd Flight with real camo ( no PS job ) link

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Re: PAK-FA Thread - First flight

Post by Pratik_S »

Austin wrote:3rd Flight with real camo ( no PS job ) link

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Looks great. I wonder if they used RAM in the paint or just a ordinary paint job.
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Re: PAK-FA Thread - First flight

Post by Austin »

Most likely ordinary paint job with just 3 flights done yet they have lot to worry about validating and meeting other flight performance then stealth, I think the actual RCS validation will take in other prototypes ( 3rd 4th onwards ) , the first two will validate basic and advanced flight performance ,FCS,Avionics etc.
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Re: PAK-FA Thread - First flight

Post by NRao »

GaN module is something they are researching into right now , I am just wondering if by 2018 they can build a test prototype of AESA based on GaN T/R module.
OK. I think that sounds about right. Early 2020s before they can actually deploy them.
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Re: PAK-FA Thread - First flight

Post by sumshyam »

post from keypublishing forum :: Possible explanation for mystery triangle pods
"This aircraft is practically invisible [to radar]"- said N. Makarov (some Air Force big-wig), at a news conference in Moscow, talking about the characteristics of the PAK-FA. According to his words, in order to reduce it's radar signature, all weapons are carried inside the aircraft, in the fuselage and inside the wings...
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Re: PAK-FA Thread - First flight

Post by sumshyam »

Post from KeyPublishing ::

The latest issue of the German aviation magazine FlugRevue features an article about the PAK FA.

It states that the Al-41F1 engine powering the prototype generates a reheat thrust of 147 kN. Any other source which confirms that?

It furthermore states that there will be 6 prototypes:
T-50KNS = not flyable prototype to be used for taxi and ground trials
T-50-0 = Static airframe for structural load testing
T-50-1/2/4 = Flying prototypes
T-50-3 = Static airframe for fatigue testing
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Re: PAK-FA Thread - First flight

Post by Rahul M »

guys, please continue this discussion on development to know India thread in GDF. I'll move the rest of the posts as well.
my fault, should have mentioned it earlier.
thanks,
Rahul.
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Re: PAK-FA Thread - First flight

Post by Austin »

^^^ I doubt its the AL-41F1 engine most likely to be 117 with 15T of thrust ( 147 Kn ) , the RuAF chief was complaining a month back that they were facing problems with 5th Gen engine.

The real 5th gen engine ( AL-41F1 ) under development has a thrust rating between 17.5 and 18T ( 172 Kn - 177 Kn )
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Re: PAK-FA Thread - First flight

Post by NRao »

The 5th Gen engine will need time. If it is built to run-against-the-clock standards the PAK-FA may not be worth it outside of air shows.
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Re: PAK-FA Thread - First flight

Post by Wickberg »

Rahul M wrote:guys, please continue this discussion on development to know India thread in GDF. I'll move the rest of the posts as well.
my fault, should have mentioned it earlier.
thanks,
Rahul.
Good call I´ll guess. But what/where is "GDF"?. Sometimes (very often) it´s very hard for an non Indian/non english native speaker to follow the lingo on this forum. I´m not complaining, it´s and Indian forum after all...
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Re: PAK-FA Thread - First flight

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Re: PAK-FA Thread - First flight

Post by Dmurphy »

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Re: PAK-FA Thread - First flight

Post by Rahul M »

Wickberg wrote: Good call I´ll guess. But what/where is "GDF"?. Sometimes (very often) it´s very hard for an non Indian/non english native speaker to follow the lingo on this forum. I´m not complaining, it´s and Indian forum after all...
sorry for not explaining. GDF is general discussion forum. you can see it here in the discussion forum list. http://forums.bharat-rakshak.com/index.php

posts moved. starting with http://forums.bharat-rakshak.com/viewto ... 49#p825749
Rahul.
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Re: PAK-FA Thread - First flight

Post by Carl_T »

This may have been discussed, I didn't see it though. Are the nozzles going to be changed for the final product to yield F-22 style exhaust nozzles?
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Re: PAK-FA Thread - First flight

Post by Rahul M »

why should it be changed to F-22 style nozzles ? those are 2-D TVC, this should be 3-D TVC.
the IR signature reduction of F-22 comes from other things, not shape of exhaust. for example : http://www.f-22raptor.com/st_getstealth ... treduction
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Re: PAK-FA Thread - First flight

Post by ArmenT »

Wickberg wrote:Sometimes (very often) it´s very hard for an non Indian/non english native speaker to follow the lingo on this forum. I´m not complaining, it´s and Indian forum after all...
Sir, I think you would be an excellent candidate to review the BRF dictionary then. The Glossary section will explain quite a bit :)
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Re: PAK-FA Thread - First flight

Post by Carl_T »

Rahul M wrote:why should it be changed to F-22 style nozzles ? those are 2-D TVC, this should be 3-D TVC.
the IR signature reduction of F-22 comes from other things, not shape of exhaust. for example : http://www.f-22raptor.com/st_getstealth ... treduction

I thought the round nozzles increased RCS...?
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Re: PAK-FA Thread - First flight

Post by ArmenT »

^^^
Lowering RCS is one thing, but it is very important to reduce heat signature of the engine as well, especially since a lot of missiles are heat seeking.
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Re: PAK-FA Thread - First flight

Post by jimit »

Engine nozzles
Reduction of radar cross section of nozzles Is also very important, and is complicated by high material temperatures. The approach taken at Lockheed is to use ceramic materials. The ceramics may be either lightweight, parasitic sheets mounted on conventional nozzle structures or heavier structural materials forming saw-toothed edges.
I was reading about f 22 found this here
http://www.f22fighter.com/stealth.htm
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Re: PAK-FA Thread - First flight

Post by Carl_T »

^^
But if the nozzle shape has no impact on the IR signature as RahulM said, wouldn't we then look to reduce the RCS as well?
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Re: PAK-FA Thread - First flight

Post by Gaur »

^^
The sawtooth shape of the nozzle scatters radar waves and thus certainly has some effect on rcs. However, the question is how much? Is it enough to sacrifice 3D TVC? Aircraft design is always a compromise. You cannot have it all. Obviously, the Russians felt that whatever rcs advantage the sawtooth nozzles would provide would not be enough to sacrifice 3D TVC.
Last edited by Gaur on 20 Feb 2010 12:37, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: PAK-FA Thread - First flight

Post by jimit »

Carl,

I very much agree with you about reducing RCS by changing the shape of the nozzle, I have compared the RCS of the nozzles of T-50 and F22 below.

If we compare the nozzles of T-50 and F 22, we observe that the T-50 has a circular cross section where as F-22 has a very complex shape, it can be closely regarded as a square with curved walls or technically high cross sectional aspect ratio nozzle. Please have a look at this picture of F-22 2D thrust vectoring nozzle
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/c ... Parked.jpg

The RCS of the nozzle is determined by the power of the cavity echo return i.e the reflectivity of the duct of the nozzle.
The cavity of the T-50 can be regarded as a straight duct with a positive slope i.e cone. The energy reflected from a straight duct will be reflected in two to three bounces, where as the high cross sectional aspect ratio nozzle of the F-22 will reflect after many several bounces greatly reducing the RCS.
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Re: PAK-FA Thread - First flight

Post by sumshyam »

Talking about Artificial Intelligence:: electronically change the color of a given surface in such a way it can match the terrain below it.
Image

How far is it possible....anyhow what kinda artificial intelligence PAK-FA is going to have...any speculation.
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Re: PAK-FA Thread - First flight

Post by Gaur »

^^
That is not what AI means. AI, in simple terms means a bunch of code written for various situations such that the machine can analyze a large no of situations and either take logical decisions and/or advise accordingly.
Friend/Foe identification system can be said to be a simple AI system (though it is stretching the definition).
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Re: PAK-FA Thread - First flight

Post by SaiK »

The invisibility cloaking is near to impossible,. besides it is only a research study yet and not viable at all that camouflage in one way, and opens itself bare on mmw spectrum.

They are focusing on high maneuverability for this reason. BTW, not sure OLS-50 optics can work during night ops say against F22 type very low RCS target that is low on infra-red (lowest on the planet now).

Why is pakfa pitting itself against F22, especially on RCS is quite perplexing.
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Re: PAK-FA Thread - First flight

Post by Austin »

Sukhoi's T-50 Ready To Fight with USA's F-22 Raptor
As suggested before, Т-50 resembles the American F-22 in appearance - aerodynamics is a stubborn thing. There are no miracles, and optimal shapes of promising machines always resemble each other – same nose dome, same tail unit. Under the fuselage you can clearly see missile-bay doors. The biggest difference between the American Raptor and T-50 is a more flattened shape of the latter.

“PAK FA goes far beyond just the new looks,” told Igor Korotchenko, a member of the Public Council of the Ministry of Defense to Izvestia. “It was designed with a number of innovative solutions related to new concealment technologies, new construction materials, artificial intelligence and element base.”

The All-Russian Research Institute for Aircraft Materials reported that T-50 is the first jet built with polymer carbon fiber reinforced plastic. This material is twice as light as aluminum and four to five times lighter than steel. New materials account for 70 percent of the jet’s surface. It is four times lighter than jets assembled with regular materials.

Additionally, the new jet’s onboard equipment allows for real-time data exchange both with ground control systems and other pilots in a flight group. This 5th generation jet is equipped with principally new complex of avionics integrating the electronic pilot function. This means that the jet analyzes the situation and suggests a range of actions for the pilot to choose from. It will significantly decrease the pilot’s workload allowing more attention to be paid to tactical missions.
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Re: PAK-FA Thread - First flight

Post by SaiK »

For RCS, we should not discount on radar absorption technology, that convert certain radar energy to heat.

They could also think about heat exchangers near exhausts, and introducing plasma ? [klimov has some research on this for reducing drag using plasma] or chemicals to make water vapors.
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Re: PAK-FA Thread - First flight

Post by NRao »

In addition to one of your first posts (4/5 features of the PAK-FA), this adds:
Austin wrote:Sukhoi's T-50 Ready To Fight with USA's F-22 Raptor

* New materials account for 70 percent of the jet’s surface. It is four times lighter than jets assembled with regular materials.
* .... onboard equipment allows for real-time data exchange
* (On AI) This means that the jet analyzes the situation and suggests a range of actions for the pilot to choose from. It will significantly decrease the pilot’s workload allowing more attention to be paid to tactical missions.
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Re: PAK-FA Thread - First flight

Post by Carl_T »

Gaur wrote:^^
The sawtooth shape of the nozzle scatters radar waves and thus certainly has some effect on rcs. However, the question is how much? Is it enough to sacrifice 3D TVC? Aircraft design is always a compromise. You cannot have it all. Obviously, the Russians felt that whatever rcs advantage the sawtooth nozzles would provide would not be enough to sacrifice 3D TVC.
My understanding is that the F-22's idea is to see the other plane before the other plane can see it giving it an advantage in hitting it, and not doing enough to reduce RCS will give the T-50 a disadvantage.

Will the enhanced maneuverability that 3D TVC yields be enough to negate the advantage the F-22 has?
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Re: PAK-FA Thread - First flight

Post by Gaur »

Carl_T wrote: Will the enhanced maneuverability that 3D TVC yields be enough to negate the advantage the F-22 has?
Depends on how much advantage F-22 has over PAK-FA as far as RCS is concerned. At present, to a layman's view, PAK-FA seems to have less rcs reduction design features than F-22 (basically its underside and uncovered engines). However, one must keep in mind that final prototype would most probably incorporate heavy changes and may have much lower rcs. Also, PAK-FA has one serious advantage over F-22 which is OLS. F-22 has no such system. Also, PAK-FA has much larger internal bay.
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Re: PAK-FA Thread - First flight

Post by Carl_T »

That's true, this is only the first flight, the real thing is many years away I suppose.
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Re: PAK-FA Thread - First flight

Post by Austin »

Depends on how much advantage F-22 has over PAK-FA as far as RCS is concerned. At present, to a layman's view, PAK-FA seems to have less rcs reduction design features than F-22 (basically its underside and uncovered engines)
PAK-FA is a very Russian solution to the Air Defence challenges they will face in the future and it takes into account the larger umbrella of AD solution that Russia has and plans to have in the future which includes to name a few large array of decametric/metric/submetric/Bistatic radars ,a large array of present and future SAM (S-300/400/500 ) and other AD assets (Su-3x,Mig-31) which forms part of the larger IADS.

While the goal of F-22 is to go in deep ,fight the enemy and dominate when sufficient damage is done to its vital air assets then let the F-35/Teens do rest of the sweeping job.

PAK-FA design on the contrary is exactly designed to take care of F-22/F-35 and other assets when they enter into ones own territory and try to dominate , PAK-FA focuses more on sustainability (large fuel/long range ),Supermanouveribility,Weapons Load and Stealth.

PAK-FA certainly lacks the all aspects stealth of F-22 but then it does not have to be like F-22 and it will never be like it because of design philosophy ,requirement and money. Designing and Constructing an all aspect stealth aircraft is a very expensive affair , maintaining it on field conditions is another big challenge .

From what I have read about F-22 for every one hour it flies it spends 10 hours on ground for maintenance and other stuff , not to mention it costs a bomb.

In the end there is no point in designing an all aspect stealth if it cannot be affordable to buy ,maintain on field conditions and deploy in large numbers.

PAK-FA is not meant to go in deep , fight and dominate no matter what is thrown at it which includes F-22 or advanced AD system like PAC-3 ( it can well take care of most asset but not all ) , it is more to defend onself against likes of F-22 when they try to come in deep to fight and dominate and when used in conjunction with other assets of the jigsaw puzzle which forms part of Russian IADS it is quite competent to do its task.
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Re: PAK-FA Thread - First flight

Post by jimit »

Also, PAK-FA has one serious advantage over F-22 which is OLS. F-22 has no such system. Also, PAK-FA has much larger internal bay
Can you please elaborate OLS, sorry I am not aware of it.
Thanks.
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Re: PAK-FA Thread - First flight

Post by Pratik_S »

Austin wrote:While the goal of F-22 is to go in deep ,fight the enemy and dominate when sufficient damage is done to its vital air assets then let the F-35/Teens do rest of the sweeping job.
What is the use of developing and than fielding a giga billion dollar aircraft to just taking out the assets when a 3 mil$ missile could do just the same without risking human loss. They also have the B-2s.

We generally tend to underestimate the F-22, it has got some seriously powerful engines which makes the raptor more agile, more maneuverable and perform better. The threat to the Americans was simple- better performing fighters carrying top notch missiles. So they just built a bird which will outperform the Flankers and the Fulcrums not just in terms of avionics and electronics but in flight characteristics and maneuverability too and for the missiles- why not just make the fighter invisible so that they don't see us coming and lock their missiles on :idea: .
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Re: PAK-FA Thread - First flight

Post by Pratik_S »

destinyseeker wrote:
Also, PAK-FA has one serious advantage over F-22 which is OLS. F-22 has no such system. Also, PAK-FA has much larger internal bay
Can you please elaborate OLS, sorry I am not aware of it.
Thanks.
Read this, it will help you understand.
http://www.aviapedia.com/video/new-mig-35-ols-video
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Re: PAK-FA Thread - First flight

Post by Gaur »

destinyseeker wrote:
Also, PAK-FA has one serious advantage over F-22 which is OLS. F-22 has no such system. Also, PAK-FA has much larger internal bay
Can you please elaborate OLS, sorry I am not aware of it.
Thanks.
I think that smpratik's link should answer your question.
In addition to that let me mention that OLS-35 (the one to be equipped on PAK-FA) is rumoured to be able to detect F-22 from 100kms. This was written by paralay before PAK-FA's test flight. And given that nearly all his info has been correct about PAK-FA, we can safely assume the same for this one too.
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Re: PAK-FA Thread - First flight

Post by sumshyam »

Gaur wrote: In addition to that let me mention that OLS-35 (the one to be equipped on PAK-FA) is rumoured to be able to detect F-22 from 100kms.
Sir, If I remember correctly, It is OLS-50 for PAK-FA and OLS-35 for Su-35. rest is good enough.

I will put a link..as soon as I re-find it..!
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Re: PAK-FA Thread - First flight

Post by Gaur »

^^
Yes, you are right. My mistake.
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Re: PAK-FA Thread - First flight

Post by sumshyam »

Please, Can someone make things simple...!

History. PAK FA. Materials 2006 -07 g.

Original
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Re: PAK-FA Thread - First flight

Post by Austin »

smpratik wrote: What is the use of developing and than fielding a giga billion dollar aircraft to just taking out the assets when a 3 mil$ missile could do just the same without risking human loss. They also have the B-2s.
Well you should put that question to pentagon why they want to pump in so much money.

But the task of F-22 to is establish Air Dominance in hostile airspace against all odds stacked up against it be it Aircraft,SAM or Radar.

Cruise missile are quite vulnerable to AD and Short Range SAM if the hostile nation IADS exists and is not significantly degraded before using CM.

B-2 etc are strike fighter , but eventually even US realised that very expensive all aspect stealth was not affordable and cost effective stealth JSF was adopted to be deployed in large numbers where the silver bullet like F-22 will establish the initial air dominance.
We generally tend to underestimate the F-22, it has got some seriously powerful engines which makes the raptor more agile, more maneuverable and perform better. The threat to the Americans was simple- better performing fighters carrying top notch missiles. So they just built a bird which will outperform the Flankers and the Fulcrums not just in terms of avionics and electronics but in flight characteristics and maneuverability too
No body is underestimating F-22 capability its a top notch fighter , but the reality is its not affordable even for the many hundred billion dollar US budget.

BTW the F-22 was not just designed to out beat the flanker but even 4 plus gen European fighter that may end up with hostile nations and Soviet 5th Gen fighter on the drawing board.
and for the missiles- why not just make the fighter invisible so that they don't see us coming and lock their missiles on

Missile lock could itself be detected by RWR or IIR missile could be detected by MAWS.

There is nothing like invisible fighter , even B-2 is visible for Long Wave Radar commonly seen on Russian EW Long Wave Radar ,Bistatic system and aircraft like JSF are vulnerable to metric radar as shapes do not affect them nor does RAM any impact on metric/long wave RF.
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