Poll: Indirect US funding of Pakistani terrorist groups

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With the US indirectly supporting terror against India I would like to see:

Poll ended at 06 Apr 2010 09:00

The US getting hit by those same groups
58
39%
India taking more internal security steps to stop terror
53
36%
India retaliating against Pakistan
33
22%
India appealing to the US to stop supporting terror
4
3%
 
Total votes: 148

shiv
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Re: Poll: Indirect US funding of Pakistani terrorist groups

Postby shiv » 02 Apr 2010 21:24

Airavat wrote:
LeT is part of the Pakistan army and LeT cells have been uncovered in the US. Jihad is part of the Pakistan army's motto, and far from "fighting Islam" they are using Islamist terror groups to subdue the Pashtun people. And they have been using Islamist terror groups against India and Afghanistan. The Pakistan army wants an end to drone strikes because their Islamist assets deployed against the Pashtuns are being blown apart, while ordinary Pashtuns want such strikes to continue.

I don't think many Pakistanis have realised this,


So they are using Islam to fight Muslims!!

I believe that it is important to tell the ummah that they are a bunch of jackasses who appear like and behave like condoms and hence get used that way despite their feeble "religion of peace" protestations.

If you talk like a yahoo, behave like a yahoo, blow yourself up like a yahoo - someone cleverer than you will lead you up the street that makes you think you are doing great Islamic jihad while all you are doing is condom work for the US or its whore the Pakistan army.

We never listen to or read the stats. So many people have pointed out that the Islamic world (ummah) has the lowest literacy and development. That perfectly suits their own leaders who use the ummah as condoms. Islamic leaders use their own ummah as condoms in the name of Allah. Can you believe the irony - the blithering jackasses? But their illiteracy also keeps the information about the self-condomness of the ummah from them. The message must get through.

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Re: Poll: Indirect US funding of Pakistani terrorist groups

Postby Airavat » 03 Apr 2010 05:24

It's the old fight between those who wish to make ideology the sole label for human beings rather than ethno-linguistic identities. Partition was a victory for the ideology label clowns, while the independence of Bangladesh was a victory for those giving more importance to the ethno-linguistic label.

The wars of the Baloch and now the Pashtun against the Islamist terrorists of the Pakistan army are a continuation of this old struggle: ethnicity and language versus religious ideology.

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Re: Poll: Indirect US funding of Pakistani terrorist groups

Postby shiv » 03 Apr 2010 06:31

Airavat wrote:It's the old fight between those who wish to make ideology the sole label for human beings rather than ethno-linguistic identities. Partition was a victory for the ideology label clowns, while the independence of Bangladesh was a victory for those giving more importance to the ethno-linguistic label.

The wars of the Baloch and now the Pashtun against the Islamist terrorists of the Pakistan army are a continuation of this old struggle: ethnicity and language versus religious ideology.


:lol: There are two versions of any story - both telling the same story in a different way.

There is the "sterile clinical version" -The causative organism Vibrio cholerae releases an exotoxin that blocks the water re-absorbing mechanism of the intestine leading to copious transanal evacuation, dehydration, hypotension, hypovolemic shock and renal shutdown

The usual version for normal humans is "Heck he's shitting so much that he is too weak even to move to the toilet and his clothes and bed are soaked with liquid shit and he is beginning to lose consciousness"


What is happening in Pakistan is that the whore of the US - the Pakistani army is getting paid by the US to claim that it is islamic, while the US says it is "secular and moderate". The Paki army uses islam to tell Muslims "Islam is a religion of peace. Muslims will not kill Muslims. We are the ultimate warriors of Allah" They then make their fellow ummah-ites kill each other or others to satisfy the US or their own desires. Both Islam and the ummah are used as condoms by the Pakistani army. Gullible illiterate Muslims think Islam is being made to reach greater heights by the raping Pakistani army. One side of me says "What the fEDIT? Who cares what the ummah does to itself? But another side tells me that Muslims have been too stupid and too jackass-like for too many decades now and are being used by their own greedy leadership to spread crap around the world in the name of Islam. If they can begin to get a life the pimping Pakistan army and their paymaster can be shown the door. Otherwise the much advertised ummah is getting exactly nowhere in a hurry and is only helping to hold everyone else back while the ummah get a kick up their collective butts.

I believe it is worth making this fact better known if possible.

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Re: Poll: Indirect US funding of Pakistani terrorist groups

Postby Airavat » 03 Apr 2010 07:04

shiv wrote:If they can begin to get a life the pimping Pakistan army and their paymaster[s] can be shown the door.


Sure...and pigs will fly.

ethnic and cultural divisions in Pakistan coming to the fore

Ethnic nationalist sentiments are common in Pakistan, a country carved out of British India in 1947. Although Pakistan's founding father Muhammad Ali Jinnah tried use the banner of Islam in calls for unity, divisions have long festered. In Baluchistan, separatists have long fought for greater autonomy, or even independence, from a federal government they see as indifferent to their needs.

In southern Punjab, the minority Seraikis occasionally raise calls for their own province. And in NWFP, minority Hindko speakers living in Hazara division have at times also rumbled with demands for their own province. "The fact is that after 62 years, we are not a nation," said Pervez Hoodbhoy, a political commentator in Islamabad. "And although we could eventually become one, there's been a lot of time lost and we have moved in fact into the other direction."

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Re: Poll: Indirect US funding of Pakistani terrorist groups

Postby JwalaMukhi » 04 Apr 2010 19:20

Choice 4) is correct. That is: India appealing to US. This is because although there is enough evidence to the above thesis, the explorations are limited to this. Further implications of the above thesis is left unexplored, because it would mean unpalatable and hard uncomfortable questions.
Given the above thesis, what sections inside India that is complicit with this arrangement. Any self-respecting nation would have raised a hue and cry and worked towards checkmating such a situation. Since such questions would lead to verboten, then the best course would be choice 4.
Since, the examination of implications of the thesis are assumed to yield that there is no complicity within India/Indian establishment, choice 4 would be best.

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Re: Poll: Indirect US funding of Pakistani terrorist groups

Postby Chinmayanand » 05 Apr 2010 15:42

I voted for option 1.After all the love US is showering on the pakis in form of cash and kind , they too deserve some love back from the pakis .Eagerly waiting for that :mrgreen:

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Re: Poll: Indirect US funding of Pakistani terrorist groups

Postby shiv » 05 Apr 2010 16:42

When I look at the question "Is the US stupid or am I stupid?" the clearest no brainer of an answer is that it must be me. I am stupid. How can the US be stupid?

The US surely knows something I don't know. It knows that if you throw enough money at Pakistan, the Pakistan army will mysteriously turn on its own ideological Islamic brothers in favor of the US. There should be no problem. Terrorism has been defeated.

http://www.boston.com/news/world/asia/a ... rk/?page=1
The Obama administration seeks at least $3.05 billion for Pakistan for the 2011 fiscal year, about half of which would go to a massive civilian package that Kerry steered through Congress. Only one country — Afghanistan — is slated to receive more: $3.9 billion, according to the Congressional Budget Justification for Foreign Operations.
The figures do not include covert CIA programs or Pentagon reimbursements and supplemental military aid that are expected to bring the final price tag for Pakistan to about $5.5 billion.

And for this Pakistan will give
In a recent interview, Kerry expressed support for a signature energy project, as well as aid for people displaced by Pakistani military operations. He said he sees those operations, plus the recent arrests of Taliban leaders, as a sign that Pakistan has made a strategic decision to move against the militants, especially after a spate of suicide attacks targeting the Pakistani military. Kerry hopes the aid will bolster what he calls a “sea change’’ in Pakistan.


No problemo. Terrorism is a thing of the past. India needs to get more mature and stop being so Pakistan obsessed.

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Re: Poll: Indirect US funding of Pakistani terrorist groups

Postby Chinmayanand » 05 Apr 2010 17:40

Shiv guru , is India obsessed with pakistan or US obsessed with so called Al-Qaeda ?
One more query , what is the chance that the Senators take their cut out of this aid that goes to pak ? Is it one reason why Kerry is so eagerly involved in doling out funds to pakis ?

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Re: Poll: Indirect US funding of Pakistani terrorist groups

Postby JwalaMukhi » 05 Apr 2010 17:45

Choice 1: is passive. Which will occur whether India likes or not, because the actions of US will yield appropriate results. There is nothing here for India, other than popcorn and beer. Choice 1 being active is moot, since choice 3 itself is found wanting.
choice 2: This is active choice. Obvious. Should have been done yesterday and continued everyday.
Choice 3: This is active choice. Should have been done few decades back, but it is never too late.
Choice 4: This is also active choice. This is to expose' the rogue nature. Requires audacity, on part of establishment.

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Re: Poll: Indirect US funding of Pakistani terrorist groups

Postby shiv » 05 Apr 2010 18:51

durgesh wrote:Shiv guru , is India obsessed with pakistan or US obsessed with so called Al-Qaeda ?
One more query , what is the chance that the Senators take their cut out of this aid that goes to pak ? Is it one reason why Kerry is so eagerly involved in doling out funds to pakis ?

Great observation. But the US tax authorities are too strict to allow this sort of "direct" financial hanky panky.

I am sure both the following things happen
1) The US senators are treated like royalty in Pakistan and have an absolutely great time and make Packee friedns in Europe and elsewhere who will host them in their villas and estates

2) Kickbacks paid to Packees get US entities business and profits (from US aid funds) and those profits are reflected legally as bonuses, gifts and campaign funds.

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Re: Poll: Indirect US funding of Pakistani terrorist groups

Postby Amber G. » 06 Apr 2010 04:09

I have not voted on any option, as I think the whole premise is silly.

First: There is no basis given to support the premise of "US indirectly supporting terror against India. No SINGLE court case, or a police charge, or an official GOI conviction is cited here supporting this charge of US supporting terror.. All I see, sorry to do = = here, but this is quite apt, the "experts" convicting India for indirect terror against Pak with their 10,000 consulates in Kandhar etc. Another analogy: Basic premise given by xenophobic sena against out of state doodhwalas --- "they are against our state. and must be fought as an enemy"

I was also mildly amused that the second option was not to "hit" 10 Janpath, as was suggested before, with the brilliant logic that "their resources are not infinite" .


But still, I was stunned to see that, at this moment, 58 out of 146 answers from 73 people (thats about 80% of the people) wish a hit (as in getting hit by terrorists attack) on me and my family . Now to be perfectly clear, I can, without qualification, state that I have never wished any such harmful act on any of these strategists , yet they wish that I get hit, simply because I live in US and they are brilliant enough to believe that me and my family getting ht by terrorists is a nice thing and that is what they would like to see.
(I do hope that no one here is a liar here to suggest some = = or I want to hurt them, as I said without qualification I do not wish any harm on any member here)

Some one talked about chess game here, so let me ask a simple question. In chess, merely taking your vizir and boldly "checking" the opposite king may not be the best policy in all the cases. Strategy is to think a few moves ahead: does that check results into a mate, or better position? Or simply the opposite pawn takes the queen, and you are left with a losing position? So I would like to implore the strategists here to think a few moves ahead. (May be Shivji can start another poll :)) .. Okay, so US gets hit, will it make India safer? Will it stop all terror attacks? (Hint: 26/11 happened after 9/11)? Will the next likely move from US (after the option 1 move) be surrender (or resign) or add one more group in the profiling and to be added to the "groups of concern" and be == to Pak/Afghanistan/Iran/NoKo etc for special screening.?
How the move sequence(s) in this type of game-tree will go? Will it achieve better position for India?

Sorry, if this seems harsh.. No intention to flame or insult anyone.

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Re: Poll: Indirect US funding of Pakistani terrorist groups

Postby shiv » 06 Apr 2010 06:56

(DISCLAIMER) - no personal insults intended. The first post of this thread says:

In the light of the US funding of the Pakistan army and the close links between the Pakistan army and terrorist groups like the Lashkar e Toiba I would like to see what people feel about the issue. The issue raises emotions in India and the poll questions are designed to get people to express those emotions.
It's about feelings. Not a poll of options.

Amber G. wrote: [b] No SINGLE court case, or a police charge, or an official GOI conviction is cited here supporting this charge of US supporting terror


EXACTLY! And that is why the thread was created. Someone need to say it like it is.

We do not necessarily support the GoI in its views and actions.

Clearly the US funds and supports the Pakstani army

The Pakistani army openly funds and supports anti-India terror groups like the LeT

There is not a shred of evidence that the money that the US gives the Pakistani army cannot be used to support terrorist groups

There is no single court case in the US indicting the Pakistani government for not cracking down on the LeT which is a known and banned terrorist entity in the US.

There is clear evidence that equipment that is purportedly used for the war on terror such as night vision goggles and communication equipment are available for use by terrorist groups.

The US is undoubtedly indirectly funding and supporting terror against India from Pakistan.

On a slightly different note. If you are a civilian living as a US citizen or a US resident - you find that terrorism related deaths in the US in the last decade have been (my guesstimate) about 3000 deaths for a population of 250 million. I am not sure of the size of the US armed forces - maybe 2 million men. Maybe 1000 men have died (I don't know the figure) in the war on terror. So if you are a US citizen or resident, the likelihood of your family getting hit is far higher if you or a family member serves in the US armed forces as a patriotic US citizen.

The pain of terrorism is felt in two ways. First is a direct risk to oneself, and the second is a risk to one's near and dear ones in the armed forces who have a higher probability of taking a hit.

If a person lives in India with his relatives - he has a definite probability of seeing or hearing about a known person come back dead from a terror related event.

If a person lives in the US and has friends and relatives in the US armed forces there is a reasonable probability of seeing a known person come back dead from terrorist action

Given the choice between India and the US, the safest option with the least probability of finding any known person come back in a coffin after a terror related death would be to live with all relatives in the US with nobody in the US armed forces. These are the lucky few and no one can blame them for not wanting to have a nasty experience.

Naturally, one wants to push terrorist related deaths as far away from oneself as possible. I am devastated if it happens close to me. I merely express my regrets when it is far away from me. Under the circumstances, in India, I find a lot more of my relatives and friends at risk from terror related deaths. Those deaths are being encouraged by a terror group that is supported by the Paki army, which in turn is supported by the US. But many US residents imagine they are safe from terror in the US. My close friends and relatives in the US are the safest, because they live as civilians in the US with no one in the US armed forces. And they feel the pain of terrorism less than I do.

For this reason I would be quite happy for terrorism to move away from being close to me to hitting the people who are throwing money at the terrorists supporters. If that happens to hit people I know - it hardly makes a difference to me. Already, people I know are getting hit.

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Re: Poll: Indirect US funding of Pakistani terrorist groups

Postby a_kumar » 06 Apr 2010 12:51

@ Amber G

Note that I have NOT opted for (1), I don't see any point in it. Having said that, I am amused by your defensive post, because if at all anybody has to feel embarrassed, it is Khan.

Instead of staying on the back-foot, maybe this is an opportunity for you to ask why your country is undermining natural allies. Infact, if you are so offended by all, then maybe you can answer for them. Starting from a point where a US president had one of the highest approval ratings in India (2007), we have now moved back at least 10 years, why is that?

Actually, my post is rhetorical. I understand Khan's reasons, but what I do not understand is your embarrassment at "Indian reaction, instead of choices of Khan vis-a-vis India" :eek:

--Added later--
While you maintain that "you" have not specifically wished ill ("you are NOT the same as the country" and so you bear no responsibility for the country's actions that harm Indians everyday), but you feel that "you" are personally targeted when Indians wish for Khan to be in same boat as they are against Khan's tools (now "you are the same as country"!).
Last edited by a_kumar on 06 Apr 2010 13:14, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Poll: Indirect US funding of Pakistani terrorist groups

Postby a_kumar » 06 Apr 2010 12:52

Doc, haven't forgotten the poll.

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Re: Poll: Indirect US funding of Pakistani terrorist groups

Postby Sanku » 06 Apr 2010 14:21

a_kumar wrote:While you maintain that "you" have not specifically wished ill ("you are NOT the same as the country" and so you bear no responsibility for the country's actions that harm Indians everyday), but you feel that "you" are personally targeted when Indians wish for Khan to be in same boat as they are against Khan's tools (now "you are the same as country"!).


Bravo!

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Re: Poll: Indirect US funding of Pakistani terrorist groups

Postby James Cockburn » 06 Apr 2010 17:49

I support Amber G who in turn supports our troops!

Hey whats the big deal here

US supported Iraq, US also supported Iran.
Israel supported Iran, Iran is now supporting Israel

Its just the game of pass the Token
aka called Tokenism no?

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Re: Poll: Indirect US funding of Pakistani terrorist groups

Postby shiv » 06 Apr 2010 17:55

a_kumar wrote:--Modified later--
So, if we are unhappy with the options, maybe we should start another poll/thread on how India could build effective "leverage" first so that 10 years later, we have better options!


Adminullahs - could I request you to lock this thread so akumar can start a new poll and avoid clutter.

TIA

Request sent to admins via reported post.

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Re: Poll: Indirect US funding of Pakistani terrorist groups

Postby archan » 06 Apr 2010 18:00

James Cockburn wrote:I support Amber G who in turn supports our troops!

Hey whats the big deal here

US supported Iraq, US also supported Iran.
Israel supported Iran, Iran is now supporting Israel

Its just the game of pass the Token
aka called Tokenism no?

I see you are still after Amber. You deserve a perm ban and the next time in any of your iterations you take her name with this kind of sarcasm, I will not only ban your user ID but every IP you post from. Consider this my final warning. Hate to do this but people like you leave no other choice.


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