LCH and other Helicopters Discussion Thread

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Patrick Cusack
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Re: LCH and other Helicopters Discussion Thread

Postby Patrick Cusack » 07 Feb 2011 06:34

LCH also needs 5 bladed rotor, a chin mounted gattling gun and bigger tires.

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Re: LCH and other Helicopters Discussion Thread

Postby shiv » 07 Feb 2011 06:41

nachiket wrote:Shiv ji, I don't see anyone making such a point here. But if there is no other helicopter close by and a few abduls are caught in a particularly hairy situation they need to get out of, what would they choose; trying to escape by hanging off an Apache/Mi-28/LCH/whatever or waiting for an evac helo to reach them by which time they might be in several places instead of one?


Sorry - I am the one who is trying to make a point. If you have a choice between Chetak and Apache for casevac, Chetak is better. No matter how good an Apaches is, it was never designed for casevac and Abduls riding on the side for photo op looks silly to me. Stuntmen hang off all types of helos in dozens of movies. This point seems to get lost in a litany of praise for the Apache's qualities.

You can use a battle tank as a school bus with children sitting on top. But a standard school bus is better. Praising the batteworthiness of the battle tank does not make it good as a school bus.

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Re: LCH and other Helicopters Discussion Thread

Postby nachiket » 07 Feb 2011 06:43

Patrick Cusack wrote:LCH also needs 5 bladed rotor, a chin mounted gattling gun and bigger tires.

Here we go again. I don't understand this Gatling gun fetish. What's wrong with the 20mm gun it has right now? I could even understand the demand for a 30mm gun. But why gatling? Just because it looks cool. What about it's recoil? No attack helicopter including the Apache actually has a chin mounted gatling gun.
Edit: The Mangusta has a Gatling type gun. "3 barreled 20mm". I don't see why that is so much better than a single barreled 20mm.
Last edited by nachiket on 07 Feb 2011 06:55, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: LCH and other Helicopters Discussion Thread

Postby shiv » 07 Feb 2011 06:48



Here is the story of the event
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x6qHcd4imKk

Four men strapped to 3 Apaches went looking for and retrieved the body of a dead colleague. They had 3 Apaches and no light helo?

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Re: LCH and other Helicopters Discussion Thread

Postby Gurneesh » 07 Feb 2011 06:56

shiv wrote:
nachiket wrote:Shiv ji, I don't see anyone making such a point here. But if there is no other helicopter close by and a few abduls are caught in a particularly hairy situation they need to get out of, what would they choose; trying to escape by hanging off an Apache/Mi-28/LCH/whatever or waiting for an evac helo to reach them by which time they might be in several places instead of one?


Sorry - I am the one who is trying to make a point. If you have a choice between Chetak and Apache for casevac, Chetak is better. No matter how good an Apaches is, it was never designed for casevac and Abduls riding on the side for photo op looks silly to me. Stuntmen hang off all types of helos in dozens of movies. This point seems to get lost in a litany of praise for the Apache's qualities.

You can use a battle tank as a school bus with children sitting on top. But a standard school bus is better. Praising the batteworthiness of the battle tank does not make it good as a school bus.


Chetak is better than Apache when it comes to casevac. Even Abduls would know that. The pic we saw might be an example of jugaad by the abduls to get out of a hairy situation. If one has to choose, then proper helicopter is better but would it be better to evacuate hanging onto an attack helo when the area is somewhat sanitized or to wait for a proper casevac helo to arrive and risk getting run over by the enemy.

Even tanks are (were) used to carry troops on the top which is better than troops walking their asses off. Now an APC is any day better but if you do not have one around would the Abduls walk than sit on top of a tank. (Situation is different in urban scenario though where walking might be better).

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Re: LCH and other Helicopters Discussion Thread

Postby shiv » 07 Feb 2011 07:05

Gurneesh wrote:Chetak is better than Apache when it comes to casevac. Even Abduls would know that. The pic we saw might be an example of jugaad by the abduls to get out of a hairy situation.

No. That hi-res pic is a psy ops photo op to show Abduls hanging off an Apache as though there is something great about that. That jugaad occurred once. Jugaad is jugaad. American jugaad is not better than Indian jugaad. They are making do with what they have rather than using what they need.

My main rant is how we go to great lengths to defend and praise something when it is American, and are always asking why the American model was not followed by India. Check the Gatling gun query above.
Last edited by shiv on 07 Feb 2011 07:11, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: LCH and other Helicopters Discussion Thread

Postby nachiket » 07 Feb 2011 07:09

shiv wrote:
Gurneesh wrote:Chetak is better than Apache when it comes to casevac. Even Abduls would know that. The pic we saw might be an example of jugaad by the abduls to get out of a hairy situation.

No. That hi-res pic is a psy ops photo op to show Abduls hanging off an Apache as though there is something great about that. That jugaad occurred once. Jugaad is jugaad. American jugaad is not better than Indian jugaad. They are making do with what they have rather than using what they need.


To show whom? And to what end? They are surely not trying to sell the Apache as a casevac helo. Their customers are professional Air Forces who will know jugaad when they see it.

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Re: LCH and other Helicopters Discussion Thread

Postby shiv » 07 Feb 2011 07:16

nachiket wrote:To show whom? And to what end? They are surely not trying to sell the Apache as a casevac helo. Their customers are professional Air Forces who will know jugaad when they see it.


Are you sure about this? I disagree. To me the photo looks like it is being used to show how versatile the Apache is and how it can carry troops strapped to the side. I would not put it past the Americans to use this as a selling point - and judging by how the Apache is getting praised on here the salesmen would be stupid if they did no use this as a selling point. "We can put four extra men on the outside - here see this video from Afghanistan" :D

A lot of banana republic militaries and brochure devouring people would certainly fall for that one.

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Re: LCH and other Helicopters Discussion Thread

Postby Gurneesh » 07 Feb 2011 08:00

shiv wrote:
No. That hi-res pic is a psy ops photo op to show Abduls hanging off an Apache as though there is something great about that. That jugaad occurred once. Jugaad is jugaad. American jugaad is not better than Indian jugaad. They are making do with what they have rather than using what they need.

My main rant is how we go to great lengths to defend and praise something when it is American, and are always asking why the American model was not followed by India. Check the Gatling gun query above.


Using that jugaad once is improvisation (something that completed the mission). I don't think that they tried something like that again. But then again the AH-6 does the exact same thing.
Image

On the other hand, using it as a marketing strategy is idiotic and only idiots will fall for that. I think our army is smarter than that.

Praise if any is for improvisation and not for the almighty unkil. If IA had done such a thing, then surely there would have been more negative comments but i guess that is because one cares that IA is short of equipment (and thus has to improvise or make do) and one would not give a damn if Khans or Abduls are short on something.

Regarding the Gatling gun, i think someday one of these suggesters will watch Rambo and wonder why IA is not recruiting Sylvester Stallone :rotfl: .

A lot of banana republic militaries and brochure devouring people would certainly fall for that one.


I am happy we are not a banana republic....

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Re: LCH and other Helicopters Discussion Thread

Postby Singha » 07 Feb 2011 08:30

the Mi28N lacks the external bays for people to sit on !!

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Re: LCH and other Helicopters Discussion Thread

Postby shiv » 07 Feb 2011 08:54

Gurneesh wrote:Using that jugaad once is improvisation (something that completed the mission). I don't think that they tried something like that again. But then again the AH-6 does the exact same thing.



If something completes the mission, but is not the normal or most appropriate to complete the mission everyone, not just Indians, resort to jugaad.

Is jugaad praiseworthy because it did the job, or is it to be criticized because the job was done in an inelegant non standard manner?

The larger point here is that I promise to go ballistic again when someone is critical about Indian jugaad - asking why it can't be done the American way when reams have been written about how cool it is to do jugaad when it was done by Americans. Using uber-cool Apaches.
Last edited by shiv on 07 Feb 2011 09:23, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: LCH and other Helicopters Discussion Thread

Postby Gagan » 07 Feb 2011 09:23

Apache with two abduls hanging on:
1. Emergency Jugaad apart, this sounds more like two abduls wanting to avoid PT-Parade to a distant camp by hitching a ride on the next available helo.

2. The Americans seem to rubbish Russian designs at first, but a few years down the line, realize the extreme practicality of what the russians did. I am sure that the uber management guys in amreekan design houses must have pooh-poohed the Mi-35 gunship concept, and built attack helos. Only that a few decades later when the US gets caught up in a real battle with shit flying all over the place, realizes how important it is to have an attack helo that can carry a few soldiers.

No wonder the Indian Army wants the Dhruv WSI.

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Re: LCH and other Helicopters Discussion Thread

Postby shiv » 07 Feb 2011 09:29

Gagan wrote:I am sure that the uber management guys in amreekan design houses must have pooh-poohed the Mi-35 gunship concept, and built attack helos.


That was done on behalf of the Americans right here on this forum. The Mi 35 was not "complete gunship". Not pure power like Apache. The reason why I speak of psy ops is that even with great American competence in tech and weapons and indisputable world leadership in many areas - a conscious effort is made to run down anything that is non American - even if it is good and it works well. Unfortunately so many of my close friends and closer relatives got infected with this virus that I had to become a jihadi cynic.

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Re: LCH and other Helicopters Discussion Thread

Postby Gurneesh » 07 Feb 2011 09:36

If something completes the mission, but is not the normal or most appropriate to complete the mission everyone, not just Indians, resort to jugaad.

Is jugaad praiseworthy because it did the job, or is it to be criticized because the job was done in an inelegant non standard manner?

The larger point here is that I promise to go ballistic again when someone is critical about Indian jugaad - asking why it can't be done the American way when reams have been written about how cool it is to do jugaad when it was done by Americans. Using uber-cool Apaches.


I (as an engineer) find all jugaads inherently cool and praiseworthy. But at the same time i also feel that jugaads are not the best way forward.

So for an American jugaad, i would say cool and stop there as i do not care much.

But while I would find Indian jugaad also as cool if not cooler, i would also ponder why we had to do the jugaad in the first place or how it could be avoided (as i said earlier jugaads are not the best or the most efficient way of doing stuff).
I guess this is the sentiment shared by many when they try to be critical of Indian jugaad.

We once had a high ranking Airforce Officer give a talk in our univ about Air Ops in Kargil War. He then mentioned the same word jugaad (and also how we indians are so good at it) when he was explaining how the Mirages achieved Precision bombing using hand held GPS devices and dumb bombs. He mentioned that though French initially refused to divulge how to do this, it was later found out that they were doing the same thing too!!!

Now that is cool, but does not quell my desire to see PGM's being the mainstay in the IAF.

I guess i have gone fairly OT though....

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Re: LCH and other Helicopters Discussion Thread

Postby khukri » 07 Feb 2011 09:49

nachiket wrote:
Patrick Cusack wrote:LCH also needs 5 bladed rotor, a chin mounted gattling gun and bigger tires.

Here we go again. I don't understand this Gatling gun fetish. What's wrong with the 20mm gun it has right now? I could even understand the demand for a 30mm gun. But why gatling? Just because it looks cool. What about it's recoil? No attack helicopter including the Apache actually has a chin mounted gatling gun.
Edit: The Mangusta has a Gatling type gun. "3 barreled 20mm". I don't see why that is so much better than a single barreled 20mm.

Rate of fire and size of impact area

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Re: LCH and other Helicopters Discussion Thread

Postby shiv » 07 Feb 2011 10:05

khukri wrote:Rate of fire and size of impact area

A barrage of 57 mm rockets from a rocket pod will do more.
Image

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Re: LCH and other Helicopters Discussion Thread

Postby Gagan » 07 Feb 2011 10:17

I don't understand this fetish for a bigger gun round.
The bigger the round, the more kick that gun will generate, the more unstable the poor helo will be, the less accurate the fire will be, and the slower will be the rate of fire.

OK not so much the last point, but more number of 20mm rounds landing bang on target will do more damage than lesser number of 30 mm rounds.

The LCH is a light helo, and it won't have tremendous speeds when making those gun runs, as opposed to the A-10 type planes which are flying at good speeds and so the kick from a gatling gun will be more than made up for by the two jet engines.

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Re: LCH and other Helicopters Discussion Thread

Postby nachiket » 07 Feb 2011 10:22

^^Not to mention the fact that the larger ammo will be heavier and require more space to store.Weight and space are both at a premium in a light helo. So you'll end up storing less rounds.

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Re: LCH and other Helicopters Discussion Thread

Postby Gagan » 07 Feb 2011 10:37

And planes like the A-10 move very fast when making those gun runs. I am sure that accuracy will not be as great as a helo making a much slower gun run.

No wonder the A-10 deserves a BIG gatling gun.

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Re: LCH and other Helicopters Discussion Thread

Postby andy B » 07 Feb 2011 11:02

Gagan wrote:And planes like the A-10 move very fast when making those gun runs. I am sure that accuracy will not be as great as a helo making a much slower gun run.

No wonder the A-10 deserves a BIG gatling gun.



Correcto mundo onlee as a matter of fact the Warthog is built around the GAU onlee.

We also need to remember that with advance in guns ityadi the 20 mm caliber gun that the LCH is carrying will be quite enough for what it needs to do. The LCH is not in the same class as the Apache or the Havoc it doesnt need to be IMO. Also lets not forget that the Apache in Eyeraq and Afgh. is not facing enemies with dedicated shorad and MR/LR Sam networks while it is most likely this is what the LCH will be facing, given this it is more important for Helina to be rapidly deployed and let Helina do the talking while the LCH can sit back.

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Re: LCH and other Helicopters Discussion Thread

Postby Singha » 07 Feb 2011 12:38

I believe a bunch of 1st airborne div Apache's engaged in a day long gunbattle with iraqi forces over the city of Mosul , many were damaged but only a couple crashed...no estimates on the number of people they killed...a very large number of apache's were in that battle. so its not that they have not faced heavy combat...the protection and redundancy features seem to work....and we all know the hellfire works (courtesy Dronacharya) though the apache has radar guided version for hidden attacks too. and there's no doubt with 16 hellfire missiles and 1200 rounds of cannon ammo it packs a heavy punch.

the benefit of a gatling gun imo would be less barrel heating needing a period to cool off - but more relevant to 'sustained long burst' types like CIWS systems...dont think the apache need to fire such long bursts on typical targets and the A-10 ofcourse with those huge 750gm shells merely needs a micro burst to do the damage.

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Re: LCH and other Helicopters Discussion Thread

Postby shiv » 07 Feb 2011 17:48

Here is a comparison of an Mi 35 firing 57 mm rockets and an A-10's Gatling
21 second video
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VuLnnVDld-M

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Re: LCH and other Helicopters Discussion Thread

Postby Arya Sumantra » 07 Feb 2011 18:11

imho, the soldier taking a ride outside is a useless feature for a heli especially in indian context. No rescued soldier will be able to survive hanging outside in freezing temperatures over himalayas plus windchill(due to heli speed). Most rescued soldiers will also be injured in someway and with them hanging outside it would be impossible to either attend them or check with them if they were alright. Besides any soldier hanging outside is an easy target to any hidden enemy fire.

A Dhruv WSI is far better and safer idea. I wonder why every dhruv in service with IA is not a WSI type. At least it could be used if needed. Just don't load them with firing payload if not needed.

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Re: LCH and other Helicopters Discussion Thread

Postby Gagan » 07 Feb 2011 18:34

It appears that the soldiers sitting at the sides of the helo are for three purposes.

1. To take potshots at abduls who try to attack the helo with RPGs / Shoulder fired SAMs.
2. To provide the helo with some added protection on the ground should it come down
3. The helo can drop these guys down on the ground to go into places where the Helo can't reach into.

The US is using the Kiowa Warrior and now even the Apache gunships with soldiers hanging outside in risky situations.

The WSI concept is far safer and is a winner in all three.

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Re: LCH and other Helicopters Discussion Thread

Postby saje » 07 Feb 2011 19:44

Sid wrote:instead of gull-wing doors now we have simple opening doors


Kartik wrote:I can only see the change being in the location of the canopy door hinges.


Old setup

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_o_no4M2xEPY/S ... 731857.JPG

New setup

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_zUe7sq7m3h0/T ... 0/LCH5.jpg

I'm guessing that in the previous setup with the doors opening upwards there had to be somekind of a pneumatic mechanism to automatically (without pilot/ground crew aid) open/close the door. And that mechanism naturally added to weight. Whereas in the new 'simple door' setup, the door is manually opened/closed by pilot/groundcrew (just like the LCA canopy) thereby eliminating the previous mechanism and also the glamour quotient associated with it! Can gurus clarify? I haven't seen either of the setups in operation so I'm just taking a shot in the dark here.

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Re: LCH and other Helicopters Discussion Thread

Postby Singha » 07 Feb 2011 19:59

I guess the apache abdul concept is used when no SH60 are available to cart around a squad of troops alongside the apache.

in limited nos the special SOAR unit has a gunship version of the MH60 that can cart around the troopers too.

http://www.americanspecialops.com/photo ... 0l-dap.php

this the ameriki WSI-Dhruv....

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Re: LCH and other Helicopters Discussion Thread

Postby Drishyaman » 07 Feb 2011 21:04

Patrick Cusack wrote:LCH also needs 5 bladed rotor

Now, what is rational behind that kind of thought, if you could explain the need for that? Unkil has been flying Light Combat Helicopter like the Bell AH-1 Cobra which falls in the same weight class as our LCH with 2 rotor blades. In fact, our LCH is having 4 rotor blades.

The LCH design has be optimized for 4 rotor blade, which the designers thinks will be optimum for LCH. Now, if you suggest 5 blades for LCH, you need to give the design rational for the same. Otherwise, some one else will come up with another bright suggestion of having 6 blades or may be 7 or 8 blades.

OT : Just to add, my kid bro once upon a time was designing blades (using CFD tools) for a wind turbine company, I asked him why wind turbines always have 3 blades and why not more than that ? He told me 3 blades configuration is the most optimum design. If number of blade is increased weight will increase and efficiency of the turbine in generating electricity will decrease and increment of blade will not significantly increase the energy utilization of the flowing wind.

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Re: LCH and other Helicopters Discussion Thread

Postby Singha » 07 Feb 2011 22:39

do more blades mean slower rotational speed will generate equal lift as more rotary wings are in action ? slower usually means quieter with added benefit of less chance of rotor damage felling the craft ?

in vietnam war sher khan had a bunch of FAC/spotter planes like single engine cessnaish types using many-bladed wooden props to reduce noise.
here http://www.spyflight.co.uk/yo3a.htm

as an experiment if Shiv aroor were to post the LM O-1 pic seen in above link on his page and say DRDO made it, 200 people would comment on it "bwahaha typical drdo nonsense" "nyah I knew it, this ugly duckling can hardly walk let alone fly, jai hu drdo" .... then spring the monkey trap shut and announce its a LM product and watch the faces :mrgreen:
Last edited by Singha on 07 Feb 2011 22:45, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: LCH and other Helicopters Discussion Thread

Postby Rahul M » 07 Feb 2011 22:45

Image

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Re: LCH and other Helicopters Discussion Thread

Postby hnair » 07 Feb 2011 22:56

shiv wrote:The larger point here is that I promise to go ballistic again when someone is critical about Indian jugaad - asking why it can't be done the American way when reams have been written about how cool it is to do jugaad when it was done by Americans. Using uber-cool Apaches.


I am gearing up for a pitch by fellow injuns, waving a brochure that says Apache has external booster seats for SDREs and pylon cup holders for carrying plantain-wrapped tea from tea-shops run by my own birathers 8)

Gagan-saar,
2. The Americans seem to rubbish Russian designs at first, but a few years down the line, realize the extreme practicality of what the russians did. I am sure that the uber management guys in amreekan design houses must have pooh-poohed the Mi-35 gunship concept, and built attack helos. Only that a few decades later when the US gets caught up in a real battle with shit flying all over the place, realizes how important it is to have an attack helo that can carry a few soldiers.


Nothing exemplifies this better than their now cancelled Ares program!!! After 14 deaths in two major disasters and four lost decades, they came to the conclusion that space travel dont need, er, wings. Rather they need dumb-old solid escape rockets during launch time :oops: Imagine the progress in space sciences, if they did not go down that particular dead end? People would be talking about 200+ Ton LEO payloads using SaturnV derivatives, instead of the low 50 tons. But OT.

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Re: LCH and other Helicopters Discussion Thread

Postby ManuJ » 07 Feb 2011 23:14

What an adrenaline rush!

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Re: LCH and other Helicopters Discussion Thread

Postby Juggi G » 08 Feb 2011 06:37

Image

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Re: LCH and other Helicopters Discussion Thread

Postby Craig Alpert » 08 Feb 2011 06:55

:twisted: :twisted:

Now ONLY if they manage to put the SAME pic but during the NIGHT time.. If the day shot looks mesmerizing imagine the TFTA effect of a NIGHT THEME.. On second thought, can someone Photoshop the night time with the above pic?

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Re: LCH and other Helicopters Discussion Thread

Postby Gurneesh » 08 Feb 2011 07:06

^^^ i guess at night all one would see is a lion and the words IAF moving around (something that should cause simultaneous paki salwar wetting).

By the way what are the missiles that the LCH is carrying on it's outer pylons.

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Re: LCH and other Helicopters Discussion Thread

Postby Kartik » 08 Feb 2011 08:02

Mistrals

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Re: LCH and other Helicopters Discussion Thread

Postby shiv » 08 Feb 2011 09:04

Craig Alpert wrote::twisted: :twisted:

Now ONLY if they manage to put the SAME pic but during the NIGHT time.. If the day shot looks mesmerizing imagine the TFTA effect of a NIGHT THEME.. On second thought, can someone Photoshop the night time with the above pic?


We could have a competition. Here's my try - not from mohterma's blog though
Image

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Re: LCH and other Helicopters Discussion Thread

Postby Singha » 08 Feb 2011 09:08

flying darth vader anyone?

they could take the "Predator" logo for the TD2. http://cache.telepisodes.com/wp-content ... dators.jpg

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Re: LCH and other Helicopters Discussion Thread

Postby shiv » 08 Feb 2011 09:16

Singha wrote:flying darth vader anyone?

they could take the "Predator" logo for the TD2. http://cache.telepisodes.com/wp-content ... dators.jpg


Darth Vader? Need to give it an SDRE name like "Raat Varadarajan" :D

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Re: LCH and other Helicopters Discussion Thread

Postby Pratyush » 08 Feb 2011 09:18

Depend on me to rain on the parade. Of all the images seen of the WSI Dhruv or for that matter the LCH. Never have i seen one image with ATGM. It is always armed with the rocket pod and the 4 LW AAMs. Any idea when are the Helos expected to be armed with the ATGM. As the WSI Dhruv has been flying for at least 4 to 5 years and in all this time I have not seen one image of it flying with the ATGM.

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Re: LCH and other Helicopters Discussion Thread

Postby Singha » 08 Feb 2011 09:50

ATGms like hellfire and ataka are available off the shelf, but I guess they are waiting for helina.


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