LCH and other Helicopters Discussion Thread

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Kartik
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Re: LCH and other Helicopters Discussion Thread

Postby Kartik » 08 Feb 2011 09:52

Hari Nair sir said that the ATGM decision has not yet been taken. So it could well be a Hellfire, Helina or PARS-3

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Re: LCH and other Helicopters Discussion Thread

Postby Gagan » 08 Feb 2011 10:34

Perhaps HAL should ask the americans to buy the WSI Dhruv, suitably modified to US's tastes and compatible with their systems.

:mrgreen:
Last edited by Gagan on 08 Feb 2011 10:38, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: LCH and other Helicopters Discussion Thread

Postby Pratik_S » 08 Feb 2011 10:37

Singha wrote:flying darth vader anyone?

they could take the "Predator" logo for the TD2. http://cache.telepisodes.com/wp-content ... dators.jpg


My suggestion, RAJINIKANTH. :lol:

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Re: LCH and other Helicopters Discussion Thread

Postby Gagan » 08 Feb 2011 10:41

The concept of a weaponized helo which can carry soldiers is I think to:
1. In a distant battle field, send in the goonda first to bomb the crap out of the entrenched enemy, and the soldiers join in later to mop up
2. The soldiers do the main work and the goonda does the sniper work from the air.

Won't the Dhruv WSI, being a light helo be much more maneuverable than the Black Hawk?

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Re: LCH and other Helicopters Discussion Thread

Postby Kartik » 08 Feb 2011 11:53

So the changes on the LCH as explained by Dr. Prasad Sampath or RWRDC, HAL

Image
Last edited by Kartik on 08 Feb 2011 11:53, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: LCH and other Helicopters Discussion Thread

Postby dinesha » 08 Feb 2011 11:53

Watch out for:

1225 – 1300 hrs (Running behind schedule by 30 min approx)
Mr. KS Vara Prasad
Project Director, DRDL, DRDO
“HELINA Long Range Air-To-Ground Missile for attack Helicopters

http://aeroindialive.nic.in/show_live.a ... &id_part=7

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Re: LCH and other Helicopters Discussion Thread

Postby Kartik » 08 Feb 2011 12:29

guys, HELINA seminar on right now.

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Re: LCH and other Helicopters Discussion Thread

Postby Kartik » 08 Feb 2011 12:49

damn ! the entire session ended but he didn't mention when HELINA will enter service !

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Re: LCH and other Helicopters Discussion Thread

Postby putnanja » 08 Feb 2011 12:50

Kartik wrote:So the changes on the LCH as explained by Dr. Prasad Sampath or RWRDC, HAL




I missed this talk. Any important info in this talk kartik?

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Re: LCH and other Helicopters Discussion Thread

Postby Prasad » 08 Feb 2011 12:50

He said that flight tests had been conducted. Wasn't sure if it was for the launcher alone or the missile itself.

PS: Is there any way we can get a hold of that ppt file? Lots of information in it.

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Re: LCH and other Helicopters Discussion Thread

Postby suryag » 08 Feb 2011 12:53

wonderful discussion on HELINA all of the material he presented can be taken as it is edited and be made into glossy LM type brochures. Btw, he said the captive flight trials are over, the missile anyways is tested so HELINA should be coming on stream in a year or so, sad no good questions asked. The one question that the guy asked was already there at the start of the presentation. Could have utilised it better.

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Re: LCH and other Helicopters Discussion Thread

Postby PratikDas » 08 Feb 2011 13:00

LCH TD2 in camo... :twisted:

LiveFist: AERO INDIA: Light Combat Helicopter 2nd Prototype In Camo
Image

I guess this is what Hari Nair was referring to when he talked about looking out for changes in the paint scheme, and there I was trying to figure out what the significance of the yellow primer and gray panels in the earlier photo was :rotfl:

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Re: LCH and other Helicopters Discussion Thread

Postby Singha » 08 Feb 2011 13:25

it instantly reminded of the 80s novel by craig thomas "snow falcon" about a soviet plot to invade finland and scandinavia.

http://recycledbookcompany.com/images/A ... Falcon.jpg

the camo sends a message that this bird is meant for service in the himalayas... :twisted:

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Re: LCH and other Helicopters Discussion Thread

Postby Hari Nair » 08 Feb 2011 13:27

Some spectacular pics there by Rahul Devnath! Very well done!!

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Re: LCH and other Helicopters Discussion Thread

Postby Kartik » 08 Feb 2011 13:36

putnanja wrote:
Kartik wrote:So the changes on the LCH as explained by Dr. Prasad Sampath or RWRDC, HAL




I missed this talk. Any important info in this talk kartik?


Well, it was informative. some of the points he made

- explained why the landing gear choice was made with 1 tail wheel. I just began at that point, so I didn't get what he said there
-The changes on TD-2 are mainly due to drag being higher during test flights. So, new wing stub has been designed and is currently in production. landing gear fairing is provided, both near front and rear compared to the earlier TD-1 which had no such fairing. Only for drag reduction, no structural strengthening done.
- Structural differences between ALH and LCH wherein the LCH has been built with Al frame and metal sandwich composite panels
- new push-pull wire systems in place of push-pull rods to reduce weight and improve maintainability. Very modern system
- stubs can be removed if required, since they are attached via 4 bolts to the fuselage but no reason to do so
- Test pilots have very highly praised the LCH's performance, and said that it is even more stable than the ALH
- Designed for high crashworthiness requirements, which has driven landing gear design. Far more so than ALH, which means even the WSI ALH will not be as crashworthy as the LCH, which has crashworthy seats as well
- No mention of what weapons it will carry
- Anti-vibration system is not installed on LCH due to space constraints. As a result, it has been built much stiffer to cause lower vibration
- 300 kg weight reduction on TD-2 as compared to TD-1

Image
Image

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Re: LCH and other Helicopters Discussion Thread

Postby Kartik » 08 Feb 2011 13:37

Hari Nair wrote:Some spectacular pics there by Rahul Devnath! Very well done!!


Hari Nair sir, please correct me if I'm wrong in my post above. And also please please add more details ! :)

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Re: LCH and other Helicopters Discussion Thread

Postby Kartik » 08 Feb 2011 13:40

Singha wrote:it instantly reminded of the 80s novel by craig thomas "snow falcon" about a soviet plot to invade finland and scandinavia.

http://recycledbookcompany.com/images/A ... Falcon.jpg

the camo sends a message that this bird is meant for service in the himalayas... :twisted:


On the contrary, to me it appeared like it had green foreground and grayish green background to allow it to blend with the kind of foliage one sees in our arid regions..parked on the ground with that camo it will be difficult to spot from a height. Also may help it to merge with tree top foliage when approaching enemy at tree top levels. :twisted:

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Re: LCH and other Helicopters Discussion Thread

Postby Kartik » 08 Feb 2011 13:41

Hari Nair Sir, one question remains unanswered- why not use AI-11 to give the LCH a buzz by giving it a name as well !?

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Re: LCH and other Helicopters Discussion Thread

Postby suryag » 08 Feb 2011 13:48

Dr.Sampath Prasad also stated that there was no collaboration whatsoever unlike ALH and LCH is entirely our development effort. In the last slide he said it would take atleast 650hrs of testing. He also said LUH metal cutting is underway and IMRH will being in 2012. Overall, I think HAL has matured a lot as a helicopter designer/manufacturer. Dr.Prasad also talked about how the jigs were available as soon as the drawings were completed, sign of maturity in handling production process, something they didnt do for tejas.
I think HAL will now bid for the hawk class AJT and very confidently deliver in three years owing to the lessons learnt from IJT design.

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Re: LCH and other Helicopters Discussion Thread

Postby suryag » 08 Feb 2011 13:56

LCH td-2 pics on livefist.what a menacing camo, it looks ready already eventhough it is a td

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Re: LCH and other Helicopters Discussion Thread

Postby Kartik » 08 Feb 2011 14:32

first time application of digital camo on any Indian aircraft. looks awesome !

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Re: LCH and other Helicopters Discussion Thread

Postby manish.rastogi » 08 Feb 2011 15:05

LCH TD-2 looks like a fiery beast....awesoome camo!!:twisted evil:

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Re: LCH and other Helicopters Discussion Thread

Postby dinesha » 08 Feb 2011 15:50

Image
Livefist

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Re: LCH and other Helicopters Discussion Thread

Postby Kanson » 08 Feb 2011 16:07

^ Should I call that as Snow Leopard or Snow Iguanas ? Beautiful!

Fit very much to its profile as hill rider.

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Re: LCH and other Helicopters Discussion Thread

Postby krishnan » 08 Feb 2011 16:11

Check tarmak007 blog post for some nice LCH photos

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Re: LCH and other Helicopters Discussion Thread

Postby Gaur » 08 Feb 2011 16:41

Wow! Just Wow! It seems we SDREs are also adapting to the TFTA way of looking badass! :twisted:

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Re: LCH and other Helicopters Discussion Thread

Postby Manish_P » 08 Feb 2011 16:49

@Hari Nair Sir & the other boffins who worked on this, Thank you very much indeed !!

A long pending wish fulfilled.. and how !!! :D

(viewtopic.php?f=3&t=5477&p=931975&hilit=pattern+camo#p931975)

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Re: LCH and other Helicopters Discussion Thread

Postby Singha » 08 Feb 2011 17:04

"Bars" snow leopard or "Pantsyr" (panther I hope in russian) - :rotfl:

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Re: LCH and other Helicopters Discussion Thread

Postby rakall » 08 Feb 2011 17:15

Cross-posting from AeroIndia2011 thread:

Okay first to go.. talk on LCH by Prasad Sampath, HAL.. SOme things are already known - I have highlighted in bold which ever parts I felt were new or important..

LCH: (Prasad Sampath, HAL)

LUH in metal cutting
2011-1012 - start of IMRH

Post-Kargil analysis led to ASR for LCH. Sanctioned Oct2006
Initial design featured nose landing wheel.. later moved to tail landing wheel due to the crashworthiness requirements. Nose-landing wheel may effect cockpit during crash landing

TD3 is planned later to include suggested improvements from flight testing of TD1, TD2
Roles - Defense against UAV's, offensive support to ground troops, rescue, other offensive roles
High manueovaribility, high survivability, low vulnerability, higher degree of crashowrthiness, Night & day operations, high reliability built in through desing

IDAS, hingeless main rotor, bearign less tail rotor, ARIS -- common from ALH
LCH doesnt have the other active vibration control because of space requirements.. so structure built with slight weight penalty to withstand higher vibration
Shakthi engine (Shakthi lifts 200kg at 6km alt on ALH)

Survivability:
IR suppressors for Engine IR
Dual engines, Dual - hydraulics
NBC
pressurized cockpit (not in ALH)
flat panles to reduce glint


Weapons:
AA, Rockets, AG, Datalink, Turret guns

Makes a confident & sweeping statement "LCH the most agile helo in the world today" ;-)
move from Push-pull rods to push-pull cables to reduce weight, improve maintainence.
MLG, TLG tested for crashworthiness

We have had to reduce about 350kgs from initial estimates which we did fairly successfully

Modifications based on TD1 flight tests:(for drag reduction, flight performance)
Optimization of cowling scopps
MLG fairing
modified armament boom --> new design more of a wing (boom with an airfoil shape). Booms are removable.
TLG fairing
Tail end plates removed (were giving more horizontal stability than required.. so removed to reduce drag)


Completed 65flights covering 35hrs
AFCS turned on - the LCH was more stable than ALH even without AFCS. Pilots were extremely impressed with the stability. The AFCS was similar to ALH - we only needed very minor tweaks for gains during roll as LCH has lower roll inertia compared to ALH.

TD2 paining will be a huge surprise.. It is very fancy painting that I would love for you all to see. This kind of painting is not done anywhere in the world.

Also in pipeline is the indigenous development of IDAS, AFCS

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Re: LCH and other Helicopters Discussion Thread

Postby rakall » 08 Feb 2011 17:17

Some screenshots compiled into one image

Image

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Re: LCH and other Helicopters Discussion Thread

Postby naved » 08 Feb 2011 17:38

another one of the Camo'ed LCH

Image

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Re: LCH and other Helicopters Discussion Thread

Postby naved » 08 Feb 2011 17:41

and yet another one.. sorry about that, will get much better ones tommorrow...

Image

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Re: LCH and other Helicopters Discussion Thread

Postby naved » 08 Feb 2011 17:55

While The camo'ed prototype will only be a static display this Aero India, here's the tiger in the air...

Image

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Re: LCH and other Helicopters Discussion Thread

Postby sumshyam » 08 Feb 2011 18:10

Any design changes for second prototype of LCH... :twisted: :twisted:

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Re: LCH and other Helicopters Discussion Thread

Postby Hari Nair » 08 Feb 2011 18:53

Kartik wrote:please correct me if I'm wrong in my post above. And also please please add more details ! :)

Well, Kartik, rakall has covered it all very comprehensively in his post!
The important point to remember is that the LCH is purpose built for the combat role, whereas the WSI-ALH is a multirole helicopter. When a platform is purpose built for combat, there is inevitably a higher degree of system optimisation for the role.

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Re: LCH and other Helicopters Discussion Thread

Postby Pratyush » 08 Feb 2011 20:02

WRT,

The TD 2 Cameo, Damm you HAl for not doing the SDRE color scheme. Now what will I critique the machine for. :((

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Re: LCH and other Helicopters Discussion Thread

Postby saje » 08 Feb 2011 20:13

Singha wrote:"Bars" snow leopard or "Pantsyr" (panther I hope in russian) - :rotfl:


Why not go with "BAAGH" -- tiger in hindi? BAAGH can also stand for "Bharatiya All-purpose Attack Gunship Helicopter" :lol: Enemies of the LCH will then say "Jab dikhe BAAGH tho bus Bhaag!!"

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Re: LCH and other Helicopters Discussion Thread

Postby Bala Vignesh » 08 Feb 2011 21:46

sajeji,
That's actually a good suggestion... What with it also being an acronym...

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Re: LCH and other Helicopters Discussion Thread

Postby PratikDas » 08 Feb 2011 23:09

rakall wrote:Cross-posting from AeroIndia2011 thread:
---
LCH: (Prasad Sampath, HAL)
---
Post-Kargil analysis led to ASR for LCH. Sanctioned Oct2006
---

I don't understand this. From the BR record of the Kargil conflict, helicopter operations were limited due to the threat from man-portable SAMs. How does the LCH mitigate this issue?
BR: The Mirage 2000 in Kargil wrote:The IAF were limited in what they could use at such a demanding altitude. Attack helicopters were initially preferred with Mil-17’s being employed. However due to the abundance of man portable SAM’s, such as the Stingers, their effective operation was not possible due to the hostile flying environment. Therefore the IAF decided after experience that high altitude bombing by fighter aircraft and in particular the Mirage 2000, was the best option.


Sorry if this is a newbie question.

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Re: LCH and other Helicopters Discussion Thread

Postby Rahul M » 08 Feb 2011 23:18

Pratik, even more important was the lack of power of our attack choppers, i.e the hinds in high altitude area. if you want you can go through the air power section here to understand the constraint that imposes.

even though kargil et al was ideal deployment area for MANPADS (hot target against clear sky) IAF Mi-17's did operate there with certain precautions and there were no casualties after they started using flares. the LCH is expected to have that and even more advanced counter measures like the DIRCM.


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