LCH and other Helicopters Discussion Thread

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Re: LCH and other Helicopters Discussion Thread

Postby Kailash » 14 Feb 2012 13:50

Sikorsky Tests Active Rotor With Flaps

There, the system performed extremely well over a variety of forward flight conditions up to 140 knots, according to Sikorsky. Goals were met in reduction of noise (minus 6 dB) and vibration (minus 20 percent). Performance was improved, too, with higher maximum load and better efficiency. “Our active flap rotor is more effective on noise and vibration than on cruise efficiency,” explained Russ Gray, chief engineer for advanced programs.


Interesting and difficult concept. Is there any easier ways of achieving this?

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Re: LCH and other Helicopters Discussion Thread

Postby neerajb » 14 Feb 2012 14:40

raghuk wrote:While the general mood is HAL bashing, this is something to maybe slightly change the mood :D
http://s1150.photobucket.com/albums/o603/raghuramkiran/?action=view&current=417092_10151246910875214_819820213_22938356_1954788685_n.jpg


[OT] Are you the Kiran of FP @ orkut? [/OT]

Cheers....

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Re: LCH and other Helicopters Discussion Thread

Postby member_22605 » 14 Feb 2012 14:47

@neerajb
Yes very much the same guy
The active flap on the MRB is nothing new or unique, we have been doing(testing only though) it for quite sometime now

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Re: LCH and other Helicopters Discussion Thread

Postby Dmurphy » 14 Feb 2012 15:05

neerajb wrote:
raghuk wrote:While the general mood is HAL bashing, this is something to maybe slightly change the mood :D
http://s1150.photobucket.com/albums/o603/raghuramkiran/?action=view&current=417092_10151246910875214_819820213_22938356_1954788685_n.jpg


[OT] Are you the Kiran of FP @ orkut? [/OT]

Cheers....
Orkutiya fraands :mrgreen:

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Re: LCH and other Helicopters Discussion Thread

Postby shukla » 14 Feb 2012 18:18

Apache ‘last man standing’ in India helicopter competition
Flight Global

Mark Kronenberg, Boeing's vice-president for international development, said the Apache is the "last man standing" in India and Boeing is the sole bidder for the contract. Boeing is in final negotiations with India's ministry of defence, and hopes for a final decision by the end of the second quarter.

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Re: LCH and other Helicopters Discussion Thread

Postby Singha » 14 Feb 2012 18:40

it is somewhat mystifying though what the IAF hopes to achieve with just 22. surely 4-6 will be needed as a training unit. that leaves 16-18. assuming a 80% uptime over a 2 week war period thats just like 12 airframes.

even a bottle-fed munna like UK that will never need to fight a land war on its own, has 60 longbows.

perhaps IAF wants to get the apache in and then launch a bulk follow on order, without the hassle of another retender and testing.

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Re: LCH and other Helicopters Discussion Thread

Postby sum » 14 Feb 2012 18:55

even a bottle-fed munna like UK that will never need to fight a land war on its own, has 60 longbows.


Bottle fed Munna... :rotfl: :rotfl:

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Re: LCH and other Helicopters Discussion Thread

Postby Altair » 14 Feb 2012 19:00

Singha wrote:it is somewhat mystifying though what the IAF hopes to achieve with just 22. surely 4-6 will be needed as a training unit. that leaves 16-18. assuming a 80% uptime over a 2 week war period thats just like 12 airframes.

even a bottle-fed munna like UK that will never need to fight a land war on its own, has 60 longbows.

perhaps IAF wants to get the apache in and then launch a bulk follow on order, without the hassle of another retender and testing.


Or learn to operate it for a couple of years and then to build one on our own. An Indian version taking the best of RICE-28N / AH-64.

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Re: LCH and other Helicopters Discussion Thread

Postby Snehashis » 14 Feb 2012 19:15

Singha wrote:it is somewhat mystifying though what the IAF hopes to achieve with just 22. surely 4-6 will be needed as a training unit. that leaves 16-18. assuming a 80% uptime over a 2 week war period thats just like 12 airframes.

even a bottle-fed munna like UK that will never need to fight a land war on its own, has 60 longbows.

perhaps IAF wants to get the apache in and then launch a bulk follow on order, without the hassle of another retender and testing.



"With an option to acquire another 22." In 2020 Indian armed forces will hold about 222 attack choppers.


Attack Chopper holding in 2020:

IAF

Apache 44
LCH 65

Army

LCH 114

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Re: LCH and other Helicopters Discussion Thread

Postby Victor » 14 Feb 2012 21:26

22 Apaches may not be enough for a full blown 2-front war but they should be more than enough to snuff out jehadi infiltration very quickly with minimum casualties.

Image

Not sure how effective attack choppers are in a MANPAD infested ground war, specially in open terrain. They seem more suited to hide-and-seek type combat in terrain which provides radar and visual cover--urban, forested or hilly/mountainous areas. Their USP is being able to see and engage from a distance without themselves being seen or heard.

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Re: LCH and other Helicopters Discussion Thread

Postby Cybaru » 16 Feb 2012 10:51

raghuk,

Are you guys involved with NRUAV project for the navy as well? We haven;t heard anything on it for a while now.

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Re: LCH and other Helicopters Discussion Thread

Postby koti » 16 Feb 2012 13:16

Victor wrote:22 Apaches may not be enough for a full blown 2-front war but they should be more than enough to snuff out jehadi infiltration very quickly with minimum casualties.

Image

Not sure how effective attack choppers are in a MANPAD infested ground war, specially in open terrain. They seem more suited to hide-and-seek type combat in terrain which provides radar and visual cover--urban, forested or hilly/mountainous areas. Their USP is being able to see and engage from a distance without themselves being seen or heard.

The apaches are experts in tank killing. The plains of Punjab, Rajastan can prove pretty messy for enemy Armored units in the presence of these.
The Attack Choppers usually travel in groups, so if a lone MANPADS team tries to engage them, irrespective of their missile's hit they will be toast by the reminder of the birds.
This is not the case when MANPADS engage strike Jets.
This puts in a lot of pressure on the sneaky MANPADS squad and practically can deter them from firing. The choppers like Apache are very good at counter measures against MANPADS and are more likely to survive then any other type of a chopper.

That said, even Super Cobras are very good.

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Re: LCH and other Helicopters Discussion Thread

Postby Badar » 16 Feb 2012 14:08

Singha wrote:it is somewhat mystifying though what the IAF hopes to achieve with just 22. surely 4-6 will be needed as a training unit. that leaves 16-18. assuming a 80% uptime over a 2 week war period thats just like 12 airframes.

even a bottle-fed munna like UK that will never need to fight a land war on its own, has 60 longbows.

perhaps IAF wants to get the apache in and then launch a bulk follow on order, without the hassle of another retender and testing.


Is it possible for the Apaches to be embedded in small flights of 4-6 bird elements in mixed combat aviation regiments - a mix of lower capability LCH along with Apaches acting as flight leaders.

Fuller picture of the Apache numbers will become clear once the IA/IAF squabble over army aviation brigades reaches a resolution.

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Re: LCH and other Helicopters Discussion Thread

Postby Amitabh » 16 Feb 2012 14:38

koti wrote:
Victor wrote:Not sure how effective attack choppers are in a MANPAD infested ground war, specially in open terrain. They seem more suited to hide-and-seek type combat in terrain which provides radar and visual cover--urban, forested or hilly/mountainous areas. Their USP is being able to see and engage from a distance without themselves being seen or heard.

The apaches are experts in tank killing. The plains of Punjab, Rajastan can prove pretty messy for enemy Armored units in the presence of these.
The Attack Choppers usually travel in groups, so if a lone MANPADS team tries to engage them, irrespective of their missile's hit they will be toast by the reminder of the birds.
This is not the case when MANPADS engage strike Jets.
This puts in a lot of pressure on the sneaky MANPADS squad and practically can deter them from firing. The choppers like Apache are very good at counter measures against MANPADS and are more likely to survive then any other type of a chopper.

That said, even Super Cobras are very good.

Ask the 11th Regiment, 3rd Infantry Division, US Army: 2003 Attack on Karbala, Iraq

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Re: LCH and other Helicopters Discussion Thread

Postby member_22605 » 16 Feb 2012 16:14

self deleted
Last edited by member_22605 on 16 Feb 2012 19:19, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: LCH and other Helicopters Discussion Thread

Postby Singha » 16 Feb 2012 16:22

some useful details in that wiki article:

>> As they turned north toward Karbala, signals intelligence picked up over 50 Iraqi cell phone calls alerting the enemy's forward units of the Apaches.

I wish we had this ability . hopefully samyukta has a module for this, since the NTRC is always snooping around delhi for terrorists

>> The Apaches turned for home after a half-hour of combat. Most were without functioning navigation equipment or sights

indicates the super dooper nose mounted optronic pod and longbow radars are vulnerble to even small arms fire at 400m. a squad of people can simply spray the area ahead of a helicopter and hope to score hits to degrade or destroy these vital systems. ..the afghanis were taught that by the CIA....the iraqis learnt that on their own...without the optronic pod/radar these expensive puppies are nothing.

have to say large numbers of less complex and less hyped smaller and leaner SuperCobra / LCH types would likely get the job done better....the cobra's slim profile makes it very difficult to hit from the front and rear.

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Re: LCH and other Helicopters Discussion Thread

Postby tsarkar » 16 Feb 2012 17:52

The more interesting part was
Ground troops, having recovered from the suppression air strike, opened up with small arms and other weapons. Lieutenant Jason King, pilot of Apache "Palerider 16", was hit by AK-47 fire in the neck and suffered a severe hemorrage
So weren't attack helicopters supposed to be protected against ground fire? And the grossly inaccurate AK-47 cussed by everyone scores a hit :-)

Answer is here http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-AS71H-Yoxy0/T ... t%253F.jpg Armour protection is limited to certain parts. And if enemy fire hits an unprotected part, then there will be damage.

Even a tank carries maximum protection on the glacis (front part) and turret. The sides are a little less armoured, and the back very less or not armoured at all. Including the TFTA Abrams. Otherwise a fully armoured tank will weigh 100 tons.

Moral of the story - no gizmo is invincible. Gizmos need to be deployed using smart tactics.

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Re: LCH and other Helicopters Discussion Thread

Postby tsarkar » 16 Feb 2012 17:57

Raghu - a suggestion. Some Navy chaps got into trouble posting on Facebook. I hope you exercise sufficient discretion while posting on BR. Dont end up doing something in good faith that might lead to trouble.

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Re: LCH and other Helicopters Discussion Thread

Postby rrao » 16 Feb 2012 18:51

tsarkar wrote:Raghu - a suggestion. Some Navy chaps got into trouble posting on Facebook. I hope you exercise sufficient discretion while posting on BR. Dont end up doing something in good faith that might lead to trouble.



Thank you sarkar sahab!! I wanted to caution Raghu on the same !!!

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Re: LCH and other Helicopters Discussion Thread

Postby Aditya_V » 16 Feb 2012 19:09

Admins-> Can you delete the last post of RaghuK as it may cause unnecessary harm.

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Re: LCH and other Helicopters Discussion Thread

Postby member_22605 » 16 Feb 2012 19:19

thanks marten sir, can you delete the quote which contains my post? thanks in advance

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Re: LCH and other Helicopters Discussion Thread

Postby member_22605 » 16 Feb 2012 21:07

Actually it was a general description of what an active flap does on the rotors and the allied challenges and had nothing specific on the program itself, in fact the specifics might be a bit too much for the DDMs to understand as it tends to get very technical and complicated, but anyway if someone is really interested, it is a very exciting topic to discuss, so next BR Bangalore meet perhaps :)

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Re: LCH and other Helicopters Discussion Thread

Postby Cybaru » 17 Feb 2012 00:49

I missed the whole discussion ??? :)

Oh well and yes, only looking for very generic information only.

Has any thoughts been put into the MRH specs ? The arididen engine has about 20-30% growth left in it. Any chance we would fund something like an uprated version of Arididen to power something like the MRH ? Perhaps it would be a 3 engine solution, but it would make maintenance so much easy for our heli line. It seems it would be quite easy to work a 10-12 ton solution from those engines.

Perhaps we could even convince the french to make the hot section here in India or part with tech to do that since the scale would be quite high.

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Re: LCH and other Helicopters Discussion Thread

Postby krisna » 17 Feb 2012 02:40

IAF to induct latest Russian armed helicopters
India will induct its latest Mi-17 V5 armed helicopters from Russia that will greatly enhance its capabilities to carry troops and cargo at higher altitudes.

Defence Minister A K Antony will hand over the symbolic keys of the choppers to the IAF marking their formal commissioning, IAF officials said here. India has placed orders for 80 such choppers from Russia and the first batch was inducted in service in the last week of September, 2011. Over 20 such machines have already arrived and are deployed at various locations in the Northern sector, they said. "This helicopter falls in armed helicopter category, with substantial and effective firepower with the latest and more powerful engines that will greatly enhance its payload carriage capability at higher altitudes," IAF spokesperson said here. The new choppers will augment IAF's fleet of Mi-17 IV helicopters. "Mi-17 V5 is an upgrade of Mi-17 in the medium-lift category and is equipped with state-of-the-art avionics and on board Navigation Systems," he said. Commenting on its capabilities, officials said, "It has on board weather radar, state of the art autopilot and is compatible with the latest Generation Night vision Goggles." The Mi-17 variants have operated in various types of terrain, including the Siachen Glacier, and have also proven their mettle in UN missions.

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Re: LCH and other Helicopters Discussion Thread

Postby Kartik » 17 Feb 2012 12:05

Pics of the Mi-17V5 that will be inducted into service today.

Livefist blog posts pics of the IAF's new Mi-17V5

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Re: LCH and other Helicopters Discussion Thread

Postby Gaurav_S » 18 Feb 2012 10:03

Mi 17 v5 induction video. Avionics looks good. This beast can take down many when fully loaded.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ei6ttsUE ... re=related

credit: torqueaviation

Am I right in calculating total 80 rockets can be loaded into those pods at any given time?

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Re: LCH and other Helicopters Discussion Thread

Postby Yogi_G » 18 Feb 2012 10:55

I would assume they have RWR and flare dispensers as well? given the experience in Kargil where we sent in choppers without these and they were sitting ducks.

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Re: LCH and other Helicopters Discussion Thread

Postby Austin » 18 Feb 2012 11:15

I do see the flare dispensers below the engine the maroonish covered part.

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Re: LCH and other Helicopters Discussion Thread

Postby Reddy » 18 Feb 2012 11:37

Austin wrote:I do see the flare dispensers below the engine the maroonish covered part.


I think maroonish part is engine exhaust. The flare dispensers are the thingy with lot of holes below "Indian air force tag"

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Re: LCH and other Helicopters Discussion Thread

Postby member_20317 » 19 Feb 2012 17:46

Gaurav_S wrote:Mi 17 v5 induction video. Avionics looks good. This beast can take down many when fully loaded.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ei6ttsUE ... re=related

credit: torqueaviation

Am I right in calculating total 80 rockets can be loaded into those pods at any given time?


Jingos are so predictable. I counted those too.

Also 36 fully armed men.

From the same torqueaviation


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YvWwSZQH ... re=related

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Re: LCH and other Helicopters Discussion Thread

Postby shukla » 19 Feb 2012 17:58

IAF to procure 71 more armed choppers
Business Standard

Aiming at strengthening its medium-lift helicopter fleet, the Indian Air Force (IAF) is planning to procure 71 more Mi-17 V5 choppers, including 12 for the Ministry of Home Affairs. These would be in addition to the 80 already ordered from Russia.

Of the 71 helicopters to be ordered, 59 would be provided to the IAF for replacing its old Mi-8 and Mi-17IV choppers and six would be given to the Border Security Force. The remaining six would be distributed among the other central armed police forces, IAF officials said. Earlier the IAF was proceeding with the acquisition of 59 choppers only but later on the MHA requested to club its requirements also in the same Defence Ministry proposal, they said.

On the machine's capabilities, an IAF official said, "It has on-board weather radar, state-of-the-art autopilot and is compatible with the latest generation night vision goggles." The Mi-17 variants have operated in various types of terrain, including Siachen Glacier, and have also proved their mettle in UN missions.

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Re: LCH and other Helicopters Discussion Thread

Postby shukla » 19 Feb 2012 18:02

Mi-26T @ Singapre airshow

Russian Helicopters also recently unveiled its new Mil Mi-26T upgrade, which features an improved power-to-weight ratio and better handing characteristics in the flight regime. This version of the heavy-lift helicopter is competing against the Boeing Chinook for an order from India, which already operates four Mi-26s. The Mi-26T2 is intended for both military and civilian customers and uses “some flight control algorithms already proven on the Mi-28N,” said Aleksei Samusenko, general designer at Mil. The model passed preliminary manufacturer’s trials this year, and certification trials are to start soon. Rostvertol, an Mi-26 manufacturer that fell under control of the Russian Helicopters in late 2010, is providing most of the funding.

The Mi-26T2 is powered by two Ivchenko-Progress D-136-2 turboshaft engines with Fadec, each developing 12,500 shp in emergency power mode and delivering an extra 250 shp in takeoff mode. The big helicopter features the BREO-26 digital avionics suite from the Ramenskoye PKB. It has a glass cockpit on five LCD displays, a digital autopilot and a Glonass-aided navigation system enabling IFR operations. The upgraded model requires two flight crewmembers, down from five, but an additional crewmember is needed when cargo is carried on sling. A Transas TSL-1600 searchlight working in either standard or infrared mode allows better observation of cargo being carried on the sling.


http://www.ainonline.com/aviation-news/ ... light-helo

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Re: LCH and other Helicopters Discussion Thread

Postby shukla » 19 Feb 2012 18:24


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Re: LCH and other Helicopters Discussion Thread

Postby Nick_S » 20 Feb 2012 02:23


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Re: LCH and other Helicopters Discussion Thread

Postby vic » 20 Feb 2012 11:06

Why are we not seeking license production of Mi-17 till our MLH comes on line?

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Re: LCH and other Helicopters Discussion Thread

Postby shukla » 20 Feb 2012 17:04

Boeing Apache Fights Tiger in $10 Billion Asian Chopper Contest
Bloomberg

Showdown

Competition intensified last week in Singapore, with major manufacturers pushing their products at the last major air show before a series of contract announcements begins with an Indian order for 197 light helicopters valued at about $1.5 billion. Eurocopter, based in Marignane, France, is offering its AS550 C3 Fennec in the competition to replace aging Aloutte models built by predecessor Sud Aviation, which sold its first helicopter in Asia in 1962. Russian Helicopters, formed to consolidate the country’s rotorcraft industry, is offering the Kamov Ka-226 -- which has the NATO reporting name ‘Hoodlum’ -- with a winner to be declared in March or April, Ducrot said.

India, whose existing chopper fleet is dominated by Soviet models, also has a contest underway for 55 naval helicopters, worth $2.2 billion, for which Eurocopter is pitching the NH90 against Sikorsky’s Seahawk and Textron Inc.’s Bell 429. The south Asian nation is also seeking 22 attack choppers in a tender for which Chicago-based Boeing says its AH-64 Apache has been selected as preferred bidder over the Russian Mil Mi-28 Havoc, together with 15 heavy-lift models that have attracted proposals from the Boeing Ch-47 Chinook and the Mi-26 Halo.

Combat-Proven

Boeing is offering the Chinook model used in Afghanistan, defense spokesman Hal Klopper said. That may enhance its credentials for operation in the Himalayas, where Indian and Pakistani forces are ranged against each other at high altitude. With India also due to issue proposals for coastguard helicopters this year, “there are potential tenders for all the armed forces,” said Ducrot at Eurocopter, a unit of European Aeronautic, Defence & Space Co. which lifted revenue 13 percent last year a record 5.4 billion euros ($7 billion). The surge in Asian helicopter purchases mirrors a jump in combat-plane orders led by an $11 billion Indian contract for 126 fighters, the biggest in years, provisionally awarded to Paris-based Dassault Aviation SA’s Rafale last month.

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Re: LCH and other Helicopters Discussion Thread

Postby rohitvats » 20 Feb 2012 17:34

I have never being able to understand the logic behind grouping Mi-26 and Ch-47 in the same competition. I mean, the venerable Mi-26 can carry a fully loaded Chinook and then some more. True competition to Mi-26 is the CH-53 - but that does not seem to be on horizon. To me, it seems that the only reason Mi-26 is in the race is to prevent the single vendor situation - the deal seems to have been already decided in Chinook's favor. A complete tier of of helicopters would be LUH/Dhruv/Mi-17/Chinook/Mi-26.

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Re: LCH and other Helicopters Discussion Thread

Postby Singha » 20 Feb 2012 17:49

I am doubtful if the Chinook has any value add over the new Mi17V we are getting. it seems more like another "gift" to the khan.

the Ch53K is in testing with some 100+ confirmed orders from USMC and surely other operators like the Heer in due course. however earliest IOC is 2018 so it cannot compete now.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sikorsky_C ... r_Stallion

given these helis will never take part in direct assault role , if the Mi26T is reliable and cheap, with a decent supply chain we should get it instead of the Chinook. 50 of these could massively upg the mobility of our mountain strike corps but while the CH53K would arrive in decent delivery rate and be well supported by OEM, the Mi26T has to prove itself in that dept 8)

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Re: LCH and other Helicopters Discussion Thread

Postby rohitvats » 20 Feb 2012 18:01

50 Mi-26!!!!!!!...You want to over-run Lhasa or what???? :twisted: :twisted: :twisted:

On a serious note - these birds are the rotary version of C-130J. To be used to reach inaccessible areas with troops and loads. They are lumbering trucks in the sky. Ch-47 and even Ch-53 are far more agile...Ch-47 can sustain IA troops right in the front. Coupld of squadrons each for Northern/Central/Eastern sector can fill a crucial role.

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Re: LCH and other Helicopters Discussion Thread

Postby member_19648 » 20 Feb 2012 18:12

Singha wrote:given these helis will never take part in direct assault role , if the Mi26T is reliable and cheap, with a decent supply chain we should get it instead of the Chinook.


Singha,

The MI26 is a huge fuel guzzler and the running costs are too high to keep it operational over extended periods of time. Also, spares are an issue. They practically serve very little purpose except when you have to carry huge nuclear missiles over Serbia during heights of cold war.


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