LCH and other Helicopters Discussion Thread

All threads that are locked or marked for deletion will be moved to this forum. The topics will be cleared from this archive on the 1st and 16th of each month.
bmallick
BRFite
Posts: 303
Joined: 05 Jun 2010 20:28

Re: LCH and other Helicopters Discussion Thread

Postby bmallick » 22 Nov 2012 19:32

If we are taking of networked scenarios, wouldn't the following methods of attack possible for SEAD.

AEW/AWACS/ESM aircraft patrolling 300-400 km away, picks the emissions from ground radars, estimates it location. Now, it can pass on the coordinates to low flying attack choppers, which fires their missiles, always hidden below the horizon or masked by terrain. Or else the same aircraft can pass on information to land based missile batteries of Prahaar or Brahmos. Missile is fired immediately to hit the radars. Maybe the homing system may lock onto the emissions of the radar itself.

I guess with in the modern battlefield, most mobile radar system, would resort to shoot & scoot, tactics to avoid being hit. Small short pulses for getting the general picture, pack and get out of there. Hence the need for quickly identify, locate, engage & destroy it. Hence, the need for quick reaction missile/systems with very short flight time.

Singha
BRF Oldie
Posts: 66605
Joined: 13 Aug 2004 19:42
Location: the grasshopper lies heavy

Re: LCH and other Helicopters Discussion Thread

Postby Singha » 22 Nov 2012 20:50

these shoot and scoot tactics dont work if you need to provide 24x7 protection to moving formations or static locations like supply node or HQ camps. they need to be active atleast to beat off an attack even if most of the time they get feed from somewhere else.

those big S300+ search radars need to be active round the clock to provide the bubble.

joygoswami
BRFite
Posts: 521
Joined: 11 May 2010 19:08
Location: Destination Moon For 5yrs with Zaid Hamid

Re: LCH and other Helicopters Discussion Thread

Postby joygoswami » 24 Nov 2012 21:17

Got this sweet video on the HAL Lancer from youtube.


joygoswami
BRFite
Posts: 521
Joined: 11 May 2010 19:08
Location: Destination Moon For 5yrs with Zaid Hamid

Re: LCH and other Helicopters Discussion Thread

Postby joygoswami » 24 Nov 2012 21:19

HAL Chetak demonstrate quick insertion.


joygoswami
BRFite
Posts: 521
Joined: 11 May 2010 19:08
Location: Destination Moon For 5yrs with Zaid Hamid

Re: LCH and other Helicopters Discussion Thread

Postby joygoswami » 24 Nov 2012 21:27

Dhruv displays rapid insertion. Love how stable the Dhruv stays when the Commandos are rappeling down.


member_23180
BRFite -Trainee
Posts: 2
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: LCH and other Helicopters Discussion Thread

Postby member_23180 » 26 Nov 2012 11:02


Indranil
Forum Moderator
Posts: 7405
Joined: 02 Apr 2010 01:21

Re: LCH and other Helicopters Discussion Thread

Postby Indranil » 26 Nov 2012 22:44

Long time no news of LCH? Eager to hear about TD-3, weapon trials, anything :-)

Indranil
Forum Moderator
Posts: 7405
Joined: 02 Apr 2010 01:21

Re: LCH and other Helicopters Discussion Thread

Postby Indranil » 14 Dec 2012 03:47

Cross posting

Update on LUH in HAL Connect: Issue 44. It contains a nice picture too.

The first Cockpit structure assembly of Light Utility Helicopter Ground Test Vehicle (LUH GTV) was completed and unloaded from the jig on December 6, 2012 in presence of Shri P. Soundara Rajan, Managing Director (Helicopter Complex), Shri M.S. Srinath, Executive Director (Helicopter Complex), Dr. M. Vijayakumar, Officiating General Manager (RWRDC) and other officers of RWRDC. The cockpit frame is Monocoque in construction made out composite carbon fabric, fabricated in Composite Manufacturing Division (CMD) – HAL, Bangalore. The latest concept of structural design/jig design using Uni-Graphics, resulted in the structure build in smooth and flaw less “first of structure”. This cockpit structure will be assembled in LUH main coupling jig.

kmkraoind
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3908
Joined: 27 Jun 2008 00:24

Re: LCH and other Helicopters Discussion Thread

Postby kmkraoind » 14 Dec 2012 11:10

Slightly OT and a newbie question. Is it possible to make anchored helicopter and let them hover above a ship, say 1000-4000 with a big radar to act as AWACS for patrolling and surveillance purposes. It should be tethered to ship with power and data lines.

Indranil
Forum Moderator
Posts: 7405
Joined: 02 Apr 2010 01:21

Re: LCH and other Helicopters Discussion Thread

Postby Indranil » 14 Dec 2012 11:35

If you want it tethered, then why a helicopter? It makes it is dangerous for a helicopter to be tethered. Gust s of air or movement of the ship on the surface, can create dangerous tugs and pulls on the helicopter. Use an aerostat instead. Cheaper and safer.

kmkraoind
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3908
Joined: 27 Jun 2008 00:24

Re: LCH and other Helicopters Discussion Thread

Postby kmkraoind » 14 Dec 2012 12:03

Helicopter's deployment, retrieving, altitude adjustment can be very fast. Can dangerous tugs and pulls be corrected by a good algo software?

arunsrinivasan
BRFite
Posts: 346
Joined: 16 May 2009 15:24

Re: LCH and other Helicopters Discussion Thread

Postby arunsrinivasan » 14 Dec 2012 12:57

Not an expert, but aerostat would be better from a fuel cost perspective. I would imagine fuel consumption of a hovering helicopter would make it too costly.

Singha
BRF Oldie
Posts: 66605
Joined: 13 Aug 2004 19:42
Location: the grasshopper lies heavy

Re: LCH and other Helicopters Discussion Thread

Postby Singha » 14 Dec 2012 13:06

how far do you want the cable? a KA31 can hover at around 15000ft which is 5km high. could be challenges in having such a big aerostat ... certainly it will need a dedicated ship with the helicopter hanger removed and the aerostat and its ground "truck" occupying that space.

shiv
BRF Oldie
Posts: 35017
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: Pindliyon ka Gooda

Re: LCH and other Helicopters Discussion Thread

Postby shiv » 14 Dec 2012 13:47

kmkraoind wrote:Slightly OT and a newbie question. Is it possible to make anchored helicopter and let them hover above a ship, say 1000-4000 with a big radar to act as AWACS for patrolling and surveillance purposes. It should be tethered to ship with power and data lines.

Not helo. Use Balloon/Aerostat for same

rajeshks
BRFite
Posts: 174
Joined: 29 Dec 2007 22:43

Re: LCH and other Helicopters Discussion Thread

Postby rajeshks » 15 Dec 2012 07:11

and help even somalian navy( :) ) to find the location of our navy ships..

shiv
BRF Oldie
Posts: 35017
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: Pindliyon ka Gooda

Re: LCH and other Helicopters Discussion Thread

Postby shiv » 15 Dec 2012 08:31

rajeshks wrote:and help even somalian navy( :) ) to find the location of our navy ships..


No more than helos tied to cables, and not if they are placed on buoys rather than ships. The Aerostat question came up only to say that that would be better than tying helicopters to cables. Aerostats are more stealthy than helos, require no crew and less power and will detect intrusions with less vibration and radar interference than helos tied to ships. Robot buoys are already in use.

shiv
BRF Oldie
Posts: 35017
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: Pindliyon ka Gooda

Re: LCH and other Helicopters Discussion Thread

Postby shiv » 15 Dec 2012 08:34

kmkraoind wrote:Helicopter's deployment, retrieving, altitude adjustment can be very fast. Can dangerous tugs and pulls be corrected by a good algo software?


The idea of a helicopter is free mobility in three axes. Tying it down is for kites and balloons. It is also extremely costly in fuel and wear and tear to maintain hover. Forward flight needs less fuel because the spinning rotors generate lift like wings.

rajanb
BRFite
Posts: 1947
Joined: 03 Feb 2011 16:56

Re: LCH and other Helicopters Discussion Thread

Postby rajanb » 15 Dec 2012 08:53

shiv wrote:
kmkraoind wrote:Helicopter's deployment, retrieving, altitude adjustment can be very fast. Can dangerous tugs and pulls be corrected by a good algo software?


The idea of a helicopter is free mobility in three axes. Tying it down is for kites and balloons. It is also extremely costly in fuel and wear and tear to maintain hover. Forward flight needs less fuel because the spinning rotors generate lift like wings.


But if an aerostat is tied to a ship, will it not decrement the ship's ability to manoevre in case of an emergency? A buoy would be a better idea.

JMT

Bala Vignesh
BRFite
Posts: 1980
Joined: 30 Apr 2009 02:02
Location: Standing at the edge of the cliff
Contact:

Re: LCH and other Helicopters Discussion Thread

Postby Bala Vignesh » 15 Dec 2012 10:59

^^ Of course, but an aerostat can always be recovered or jettisoned to be recovered later. It comes down to what kind of aerostat are we looking at. If we are looking at motorized aerostats then they could even be programmed to fall back and hold their position till the engagement is over.

rajanb
BRFite
Posts: 1947
Joined: 03 Feb 2011 16:56

Re: LCH and other Helicopters Discussion Thread

Postby rajanb » 15 Dec 2012 11:25

^^ thanks Bala.

shiv
BRF Oldie
Posts: 35017
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: Pindliyon ka Gooda

Re: LCH and other Helicopters Discussion Thread

Postby shiv » 15 Dec 2012 14:55

rajanb wrote:
But if an aerostat is tied to a ship, will it not decrement the ship's ability to manoevre in case of an emergency? A buoy would be a better idea.

JMT

If it's a big aerostat maybe it will lift the ship out of the water and then the screw can act as a propeller hain? :rotfl:

Whoops - sorry OT for this thread

ArmenT
BR Mainsite Crew
Posts: 4239
Joined: 10 Sep 2007 05:57
Location: Loud, Proud, Ugly American

Re: LCH and other Helicopters Discussion Thread

Postby ArmenT » 15 Dec 2012 15:03

rajanb wrote:But if an aerostat is tied to a ship, will it not decrement the ship's ability to manoevre in case of an emergency? A buoy would be a better idea.

JMT

Don't think it will affect the ship handling much, but a tethered cable could become a deck hazard if the ship starts making sudden turns. But there's an easy solution: You could always cut the cable in an emergency :). Besides a buoy is on the surface of the water, whereas an aerostat is high up in the air and therefore can scan a large area.

Prem Kumar
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2188
Joined: 31 Mar 2009 00:10

Re: LCH and other Helicopters Discussion Thread

Postby Prem Kumar » 16 Dec 2012 07:34

How about a string of aerostats like a SOSUS array - tethered to the ocean floor? Not tied to a ship. Like an on-sea-radar-station

Wrong thread though

keshavchandra
BRFite
Posts: 266
Joined: 05 Dec 2008 22:23

Re: LCH and other Helicopters Discussion Thread

Postby keshavchandra » 18 Dec 2012 18:40

Rudra to get IOC by month end, as per the idrw. I don't know how much reliable this info is. I Jst crossed d fingures and watch.

Aditya G
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3391
Joined: 19 Feb 2002 12:31
Contact:

Re: LCH and other Helicopters Discussion Thread

Postby Aditya G » 18 Dec 2012 20:27

Since the LCH is wheeled, can it operate from INS Jalashwa or Viraat? it may useful for fleet protection or Somalia type scenarios.

Image

Image

Brando
BRFite
Posts: 676
Joined: 26 Feb 2008 06:18

Re: LCH and other Helicopters Discussion Thread

Postby Brando » 18 Dec 2012 20:50

Naval attack helicopters require significant modifications to standard attack helicopters to make them viable. You need to "naval-ize" the helicopter, especially the engine, rotor, rotor-hub to make them corrosion resistant and the engine capable of operating in the high humidity. Further, you have range issues that you need to be mindful of that limits their operation. Then you need to consider the need for additional radar and sensors that land based attack helicopters don't use because they navigate and sight targets mostly manually. Finally you have to consider the cost of operations, helicopters burn a lot of fuel, don't get very far and move slow with limited range.

Add all these up and helicopters don't make much sense over the seas - drones would be cheaper to operate, can loiter longer and do the same job -cheaper, faster and more efficiently.

sarabpal.s
BRFite
Posts: 341
Joined: 13 Sep 2008 22:04

Re: LCH and other Helicopters Discussion Thread

Postby sarabpal.s » 18 Dec 2012 21:00

i don't think so that wheeled or ski make any difference on carrier landing.

shiv
BRF Oldie
Posts: 35017
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: Pindliyon ka Gooda

Re: LCH and other Helicopters Discussion Thread

Postby shiv » 18 Dec 2012 22:11

sarabpal.s wrote:i don't think so that wheeled or ski make any difference on carrier landing.

But wheeled helos can be pushed/pulled more easily into areas for parking etc. on a ship

Prem Kumar
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2188
Joined: 31 Mar 2009 00:10

Re: LCH and other Helicopters Discussion Thread

Postby Prem Kumar » 18 Dec 2012 22:31

Arent foldable rotors a requirement for helos on an aircraft carrier?

Aditya G
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3391
Joined: 19 Feb 2002 12:31
Contact:

Re: LCH and other Helicopters Discussion Thread

Postby Aditya G » 18 Dec 2012 22:42

Wheeled choppers have dampers to ease shock of landing on a moving ship. Skis don't have those .... willing to be corrected.

Prem Kumar's point is most pertinent here as IN ruled out ALH itself ... if it were in service then a navalized Rudra may make more sense than a LCH anyways.

Brando - you are correct ofcourse. But note the pics of the British Apaches aboard the royal navy ac .... this was a 'real' deployment for Iraq and Libya and not just some exercise.

hnair
Forum Moderator
Posts: 3700
Joined: 03 May 2006 01:31
Location: Trivandrum

Re: LCH and other Helicopters Discussion Thread

Postby hnair » 19 Dec 2012 00:40

shiv wrote:But wheeled helos can be pushed/pulled more easily into areas for parking etc. on a ship


There are landward bogeys that can tow a helo in quickly. Dont know if they are used at sea though.
http://www.helitowcart.com/index.html

Since skids are not used beyond light and some medium helos (where weight of wheels + suspension matters), the skids can be jacked up and bogeys slide in under them for towing into storage/hangars etc.

Vipul
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3728
Joined: 15 Jan 2005 03:30

Re: LCH and other Helicopters Discussion Thread

Postby Vipul » 27 Dec 2012 06:41

India to assemble Russian Mil and Kamov helicopters.

Russian Helicopters holding and India’s Elcom Systems Pvt Limited have signed an agreement to set up a joint venture to assemble Russian Mil and Kamov helicopters in India, the Russian holding said on Wednesday.The agreement was signed during Russian President Vladimir Putin’s recent visit to India, press secretary Roman Kirillov said.

He offered no timeframe for the joint venture, only saying the first helicopter it will start manufacturing will be the Ka-226T multirole helicopter.

Under a deal signed during Putin’s visit to New Delhi on Monday, Russia is to supply India with combat helicopters and warplanes worth $2.9 bln.India will buy 42 Sukhoi Su-30 fighter jets and 71 Mil Mi-17 helicopters.

The two countries also signed a number of cooperation agreements in the defense and technology sector during Putin’s one-day visit, his first to southeast Asia since his return to the Kremlin in May.

India is now the world's largest arms importer and Russian-made military equipment makes up some 70 percent of India’s arms purchases. But Moscow has lost out on a number of deals to Western countries in recent years. Boeing was chosen last month by India over Russia's Mil plant for a major helicopter contract.

Indranil
Forum Moderator
Posts: 7405
Joined: 02 Apr 2010 01:21

Re: LCH and other Helicopters Discussion Thread

Postby Indranil » 28 Dec 2012 00:34

I do not quite understand Elcom seems like a electronic communication device manufacturer!

Indranil
Forum Moderator
Posts: 7405
Joined: 02 Apr 2010 01:21

Re: LCH and other Helicopters Discussion Thread

Postby Indranil » 28 Dec 2012 00:41

From Hal Connect, Issue 46

Ground Test Vehicle of LUH Engine Deck Structure Assembly Completed
The first engine deck structure assembly of Light Utility Helicopter Ground Test Vehicle (LUH GTV) was completed and unloaded from the jig on December 14, 2012 in the presence of Shri. M.S. Srinath, Executive Director (Helicopter Complex), Shri. V. Sadagopan, General Manager (Helicopter), Dr. M. Vijayakumar, Officiating General Manager (RWRDC) and other officers of RWRDC.
Engine deck structure is the last module among four structural modules which completes all sub assembly structures and will be assembled in LUH main coupling Jig.


For interested parties, there are pictures of the structure in the issue.

Shrinivasan
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2201
Joined: 20 Aug 2009 19:20
Location: Gateway Arch
Contact:

Re: LCH and other Helicopters Discussion Thread

Postby Shrinivasan » 29 Dec 2012 00:15

Does IN use ALH Druv? recently I saw couple of pictures of ALH Druv in IN colors. I was of the opinion IN had rejected Druv in favor of larger birds... Can anyone clarify with public domain information.

Bala Vignesh
BRFite
Posts: 1980
Joined: 30 Apr 2009 02:02
Location: Standing at the edge of the cliff
Contact:

Re: LCH and other Helicopters Discussion Thread

Postby Bala Vignesh » 29 Dec 2012 00:46

IN does have some dhruv's, 8 according to wikipedia, which they use for shore duties only..

SaiK
BRF Oldie
Posts: 36300
Joined: 29 Oct 2003 12:31
Location: NowHere

Re: LCH and other Helicopters Discussion Thread

Postby SaiK » 29 Dec 2012 01:13

indranilroy wrote:I do not quite understand Elcom seems like a electronic communication device manufacturer!

may be only the electronics and devices they assemble and fit it into helos coming form the russkie factories.

looks like eye-washing the DPP rules.

Anurag
BRFite
Posts: 395
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30

Re: LCH and other Helicopters Discussion Thread

Postby Anurag » 29 Dec 2012 04:29

Vipul wrote:India to assemble Russian Mil and Kamov helicopters.

Russian Helicopters holding and India’s Elcom Systems Pvt Limited have signed an agreement to set up a joint venture to assemble Russian Mil and Kamov helicopters in India, the Russian holding said on Wednesday.The agreement was signed during Russian President Vladimir Putin’s recent visit to India, press secretary Roman Kirillov said.

He offered no timeframe for the joint venture, only saying the first helicopter it will start manufacturing will be the Ka-226T multirole helicopter.

Under a deal signed during Putin’s visit to New Delhi on Monday, Russia is to supply India with combat helicopters and warplanes worth $2.9 bln.India will buy 42 Sukhoi Su-30 fighter jets and 71 Mil Mi-17 helicopters.

The two countries also signed a number of cooperation agreements in the defense and technology sector during Putin’s one-day visit, his first to southeast Asia since his return to the Kremlin in May.

India is now the world's largest arms importer and Russian-made military equipment makes up some 70 percent of India’s arms purchases. But Moscow has lost out on a number of deals to Western countries in recent years. Boeing was chosen last month by India over Russia's Mil plant for a major helicopter contract.


I wonder if this is indicative of the Ka-226 being selected for the LUH tendor?

Shrinivasan
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2201
Joined: 20 Aug 2009 19:20
Location: Gateway Arch
Contact:

Re: LCH and other Helicopters Discussion Thread

Postby Shrinivasan » 29 Dec 2012 07:28

Bala Vignesh wrote:IN does have some dhruv's, 8 according to wikipedia, which they use for shore duties only..

Wonder what is stopping the IN from buying couple of sq of Druv, they can operate it from Vik, Jalashwa and future LPDs... Is it still the foldable blades or something else, Mk III have excellent endurance and capacity to meet any of their requirements?

Singha
BRF Oldie
Posts: 66605
Joined: 13 Aug 2004 19:42
Location: the grasshopper lies heavy

Re: LCH and other Helicopters Discussion Thread

Postby Singha » 29 Dec 2012 10:43

unless they have folding blades how will they be parked inside the cramped hangers below deck or even lined up efficiently on the deck ?


Return to “Trash Can Archive”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 30 guests