LCH and other Helicopters Discussion Thread

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 05 Apr 2013 06:52

The lch has a much fatter tail boom from the side vs the dhruv. Not sure why.

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 05 Apr 2013 09:23

raghuk wrote:LCH speed limitation is primarily due to drag and also the basic rotor design does not provide for a greater speed than what can be achieved now.

Thank you. One can observe the changes in the airframe in td2 with regards to decreasing drag.

I had one confusion. Is the aerofoil of the armament boom symmetric.

alexis · Post by **alexis** » 05 Apr 2013 09:32

South Korea is getting Apaches at a cheaper rate! 1.6 Bn for 36 choppers.
FMS is too costly! It is ironic that relying on a mechanism to prevent corruption actually makes the product costlier.

world.kbs.co.kr/english/news/news_zoom_detail.htm?No=6888

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 05 Apr 2013 09:59

quite a steal imo if it includes arms and support pkgs. its not clear from the article if all 36 will be ah64 or some will be ah1z. also the weapons pkg is listed separately.

According to the data submitted to U.S. Congress, the total price of the Apache and the Super Cobra amounts to three to four trillion won, between 2.7 billion and 3.6 billion dollars, far greater than Korea’s procurement budget of 1.6 billion dollars. The deal is at risk of being scrapped if the asking price for the helicopters is higher than the DAPA budget

Rupak · Post by **Rupak** » 05 Apr 2013 15:35

Austin wrote:Turkey is a major NATO allay , I see little reason and incentive why they should buy any big ticket item from a non-nato country .... i dont remember any NATO country buying any big ticket item from ex Warsaw/CSTO country but I could be wrong here as it from memory.

The Israel/Kamov venture was itself a non-proven system and over an above selling to a NATO country good luck to them

Austin
It depends on what you mean by big ticket item. The Turkish Army operates several hundred BTR-60/80, several hundred Kornet and Igla missiles. More recently, they've purchased several Chinese B-611 tactical missiles, now being built as Yildirim J-600T.

Again, the Greeks operate several hundred BMPs and Kornet missiles. They also operate Gecko SAMs and Grad rockets. The Greek AF operates Tor and Buk and S-300PMU-1 missiles.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 05 Apr 2013 16:07

Rupak if i am not wrong those BTR buys from Russia was a form of debt repayment that the latter offered to them , much like Soko was offered Russian tanks as part of debt repayment .... yes I am aware of kornet and lately Hashim RPG-32 but those are few and far in between. Greek yes they have been long time user of Russian weapon and NATO is not amused with it may be Orthodox bhai bhai

manum · Post by **manum** » 05 Apr 2013 16:37

Germany also had Mig29, which were sold off after roughly 14 years ...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mikoyan_MiG-29

mody · Post by **mody** » 05 Apr 2013 16:45

The German MiG-29s were inherited from East German Airforce. West Germany obviously never bought anything from USSR.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 05 Apr 2013 18:54

UK could purchase ICBMs from Rus cheaply. even from mothballed stocks. get rid of the hyper expensive trident force and just have a few topol's in scotland.

ofcourse all bets are off if they are fired....could be hardcoded to fall back on london - lol

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 06 Apr 2013 00:25

indranilroy wrote:
raghuk wrote:LCH speed limitation is primarily due to drag and also the basic rotor design does not provide for a greater speed than what can be achieved now.
Thank you. One can observe the changes in the airframe in td2 with regards to decreasing drag.

I had one confusion. Is the aerofoil of the armament boom symmetric.

Got my answer from the following pic. Thanks.

Raman · Post by **Raman** » 06 Apr 2013 21:42

It is extremely difficult to visually determine if the airfoil is symmetric.

There was an Aero India lecture in which the scientist mentioned that the wing does not generate lift, and is therefore not used to unload the rotor at speed. The "wings" are essentially only fairings to reduce drag of the armament booms.

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 07 Apr 2013 08:02

I remember that talk from Dr. Sampath at AI'11. I had asked Hari Nair on exactly the same thing. He had said that the wings do create lift.

IndranilRoy wrote: At the aero india seminar, it was told that the armament boom will not generate any lift. Has this been done to lower induced drag or to avoid vortice shedding by a lifting armament boom and it's adverse effects on the tail plane? Or both?

Hari Nair wrote: @ Indranil - a whole lot of questions there! Re - the LCH -the new wings & fairings are expected to be interfaced within a couple of months. The overall weight reduction is what Dr Sampat had specified in his presentation. The wings will be lifting surfaces. The related questions on induced drag, vortex shedding & effects on tailplane - well that's a couple of hours of discussion on aerodynamics!

And I have no problems believing it. The cross section at the end does not look symmetric. Plus, it seems to be at a positive AoA. So, I would be very surprised if it does not create lift in forward flight. They are fighting drag issues. Most probably the lift to drag ratio of the wing is higher than that of the rotors.

Vipul · Post by **Vipul** » 07 Apr 2013 21:15

Scam-tainted AgustaWestland submits bids for two military chopper tenders.

Notwithstanding the prospect of being blacklisted over the VVIP chopper scam, Anglo-Italian firm AgustaWestland has submitted its bid for two military tenders to supply helicopters to the Navy and the Coast Guard.

The firm has submitted its response to Indian Navy's tender for procuring 56 naval utility helicopters and Coast Guard's request for proposal (RFP) for buying 14 medium-lift choppers, defence sources told PTI here.

In the naval tender for 56 choppers, AgustaWestland is one of the two bidders along with Eurocopter, which is offering its AS565 Naval 'Panther' helicopter.

The Navy is planning to procure these twin-engine light choppers to replace its fleet of vintage Cheetah/Chetak helicopters which are operated from warships and air bases of the force.

In the Coast Guard tender, two other companies, including American Sikorsky and Eurocopter, have also submitted their bids along the Anglo-Italian firm in response to the RFP last week.

The Coast guard, which has a fleet of Cheetah/Chetak and ALH Dhruv helicopters, is strengthening its rotary wing aerial surveillance capabilities after the 2008 Mumbai attacks and is in the process of acquiring several light and medium weight surveillance choppers.

AgustaWestland is facing the threat of being blacklisted for the alleged payment of kickbacks of Rs 362 crore by its former CEOs violating the integrity pact signed by it with the Indian government.

The defence ministry has already initiated the process of cancellation of the deal after the arrest of former Finmeccanica CEO Guiseppe Orsi and former AgustaWestland CEO Bruno Spagnolini by Italian investigators in connection with the case.

The ministry has already ordered a CBI probe into the deal and is waiting for the CBI inquiry report before initiating any further action on the future of the Rs 3,600 crore deal.

Cybaru · Post by **Cybaru** » 08 Apr 2013 10:55

56 naval utility tender ? Panther which has a lower payload than dhruv?

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 08 Apr 2013 11:18

old bird, but its navalized which the dhruv lacks.
I am sure a intensive effort to navalize the dhruv incl folding rotors if launched 5 yrs back could have borne fruit by now....there are dozens of naval helicopter types, if needed changed the rotor head and blades to a naval version.
engine & structure could have needed some changes to lose some ceiling but gain better sea level payload perhaps incl lugging heavy payloads like LWT.

it could have been done and we let it slip. now time to loot another couple billion capex for 60 helis and decades of spares and support costs.

atleast let us not repeat the same mistake for the LOH/LUH thing..and future Hal medium helo...design in a naval variant from day1, produce it as one of the initial protos and start its own parallel track testing...along with the usual khujli points like barmer @ 50C and Leh @ 35C and -25C

Lalmohan · Post by **Lalmohan** » 08 Apr 2013 12:20

naval variants also require the airframe and other structural parts not to be made of Al-Mg alloys - which could involved a major redesign

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 08 Apr 2013 13:03

well then the euros and americans must be very farsighted to have birds like merlin, nh90, apache, cobras, ec725, aloutetteIII, sea king , Seahawks that are omnirole and seen both on land and water. the apache and cobra were designed for land ops - the marines got them much later....

I think its our eternal khujli of 22,000ft ceiling in operating in hot n high conditions that drives the focus on composites and lighter alloys that might not survive rough heaving naval landings?

or are we not there yet in terms of omnirole designs.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 08 Apr 2013 13:13

after reading this I realized why the apache is only seen operating from LHD type ships and not smaller ones. its only mildly navalized in current form. the proper proposal was a cancelled pgm of the 1980s. a good laundry list of changes incl landing gear
http://www.aviastar.org/helicopters_eng ... apache.php

the regular apaches from UK
http://ukarmedforcescommentary.blogspot ... -2040.html
The Apaches that were used over Libya (ZJ207, ZJ188, ZJ179, XJ233) fared well, but at their return they showed abnormal levels of corrosion, underlining once more how truly hostile the maritime environment is. The airframes remain absolutely operable, but they will require additional maintenance, to say the least.
More relevantly, the Army Air Corp has made clear that the Apache (which is only very mildly "navalized") needs some more mods to be able to truly work well on ships.

Apache, folded

Last July it emerged that the AAC is in the assessment phase to fit flotation equipment to increase safety when operating over water, in a welcome answer to the warning launched by Lt Col Paul Tennant, commanding officer of the 3rd Attack Regiment after the Libya experience: as they currently are, Apache helicopters falling into the water would "sink like stones".
Flotation devices, along with an hoped-for new canopy jettison system, would dramatically increase the now slim hopes of survival for an unfortunate Apache crew ditching into the sea.

A more powerful rotor brake is needed, as the current one struggles against the high winds found quite often on the deck of a warship, and an I-band transponder is required to make it easier for the crew to navigate its way back to the warship. Increasing battery life was also reported as a serious need, since an Apache has now only about 6 minutes of flying time in case of total electrical system failure. These particular requirements, needs and shortcomings are due to specific UK needs and doctrine of employment, so these problems would in no way be solved by just going Block III.

Lalmohan · Post by **Lalmohan** » 08 Apr 2013 14:29

nato has been working on joint designs/specs for some time - so not entirely suprising. also they have over the years gone from navy to airforce/army quite a few times - sea king being a prime example, also A4, F4, Buccaneer - which is mostly easier than the other way around. merlin i think started off as a navy/af joint requirement, etc.

in our case dhruv had as its prime requirement hot and high, whereas with hindsight we should have gone with two dhruv variants from early in the programme - perhaps we will for the next desi-helo

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 08 Apr 2013 20:00

LUH and NMRH having folding rotors requirement from day 1.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 08 Apr 2013 20:11

From my perch as highly expert armchair helicopter designer, why not make the tail boom slimmer looking from the side but add apache style side canoe fairings to house more fuel, additional avionics and a lot more ammo for the cannon, plus more cm dispensers?

Operating over tibet, extra range would have value and we can be sure calls for a next gen powerful engine will start around a week after foc. This might need more fuel.

Some kind of m56 delayed action mine dispenser could be useful to quickly lay mines ahead of enemy armour from the air..youtube has a video of a uh1 laying upto 40 mines using two side m56 dispensers.

Lalmohan · Post by **Lalmohan** » 08 Apr 2013 20:50

tail boom design is a compromise between structural strength (max), weight (min) and balancing complex loads/moments (torsion, lateral, vibration, etc.) plus the aerodynamic effects - sometimes you also need some surface area for the yaw stability

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 08 Apr 2013 20:57

here is the M56 mine system video - one sortie - 40m x 400m minefield
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vYBJ1proxOA

then there is the M139 volcano system used from trucks and helis - UH60 blackhawks - 1150 x 140 m minefield
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5iAaO0vxmI0
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vmBw0B_KboA

this looks like something even regular Army Dhruvs and Rudras could do with the proper outrigger kit

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 08 Apr 2013 21:23

Singha wrote:From my perch as highly expert armchair helicopter designer, why not make the tail boom slimmer looking from the side but add apache style side canoe fairings to house more fuel, additional avionics and a lot more ammo for the cannon, plus more cm dispensers?

Singha sir,

The tail boom of LCH is largely hollow. So the question of being able to carry more payload is not restricted by internal volume. As far as I can guess, the final design has been chosen based on the design of the landing gear and lower RCS signature.

line drawings from 2001.

And if it is decided that LCH should carry more internally, why not rearrange things to use the space in the tail boom. It will be less draggy and will provide lower RCS.

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 08 Apr 2013 21:34

Raghu/Hari Nair ji,

Has the plume treatment for lower IR signature been incorporated yet?

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 12 Apr 2013 22:30

So the engine for LUH is the Ardiden 1U. From HAL-Connect- Issue 65.

The firm programs include Adour-871 (Hawk), Shakti (ALH/LCH) and Ardiden-1U (LUH) wherein Snecma M88 (MMRCA), GE F414 (LCA) and engine for NMRH are anticipated programs.

Also, most probably the Ardiden-1U is going to generate 1200 KW, while the engine to power the IMRH will be a 2 MW class.

The R&D center gradually intends to take up development of 1200 KW shaft engine development for helicopter, civil variant of the 25 KN engine and 2MW power class engine besides developing engine test beds for various types of engines.

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 26 Apr 2013 21:40

From HAL-Connect Issue 67. I hope HAL gets the FAA, EASA, CASA, and FAA certifications as quickly as possible. There is no questioning the market potential of Dhruv.

HAL Impresses FAA for ALH Certification

The “FAA – Asia Pacific Bilateral Partners Meet” organized by DGCA was hosted by HAL recently at GhatgeConvention Centre , Bangalore with main focus on aircraft certification. On behalf of HAL, a presentation was made jointly by Shri V.G. Gupta, AGM(CS) Helicopter Division and Shri Stanly Chako, Manager (D-Cer), RWRDC on the “Road map for FAA certification of DHRUV (ALH)” on April 13, 2013 . The presentation covered a brief on HAL , an overview on Dhruv International Certification Status, Road Map and Shadow Certification proposal .

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 29 Apr 2013 21:34

I agree,Dhruv has been a major success,where series production is in full swing and along with its armed version developed have a very bright export potential provided that we handle defence exports with the same professionalism that foreign nations advertise and pursue their wares with us! The LCH and LUH are other projects that must also be pursued with the same focus as that of Dhruv,whose only setback has been the dev. of a naval variant,requiring a far more specialised version in a small airframe.As we have done with the Cheetah and Lancer,a stripped down lightweight version can also be built to explore its suitability at high alts.

VinodTK · Post by **VinodTK** » 09 May 2013 03:31

The Boeing Company : India, Boeing Continue Talks Over $1.03 Billion Helicopter Deals

prabhug · Post by **prabhug** » 10 May 2013 16:37

what's happening on LCH ? when is the 3rd and final prototype flying ? Looks like it has hit a snag like elceeaa last year

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 10 May 2013 20:41

The New Chinooks: Boeing’s Modern H-47 Heavy-Lift Helicopters

Improved rotor. A $17.9 million cost-plus-fixed-fee contract modification for Advanced Chinook Rotor Blade (ACRB) design and engineering services. This blade is slated to be added part-way through CH-47F Block II production, with fielding in 2016. If it performs to spec, it will add add another 1,800-pounds of lift capability, and could be retrofitted to the rest of the fleet. See also Aug 4/12 entry.

VinodTK · Post by **VinodTK** » 13 May 2013 17:44

5.10 pm: The Indian Army has grounded its fleet of indigenous ALH Dhruv helicopters pending an investigation into today's crash-landing at Siachen. A court of inquiry is currently looking into what caused the crash.

breaking news coverage india today

member_26622 · Post by **member_26622** » 13 May 2013 22:02

Isn't this a bit over reaction? Did the Mil series get grounded after any crashes? Is rest of India like Siachen?

I like been playing safe but the Indian Army's fetish for imported maal makes me suspect of their motives.

Lalmohan · Post by **Lalmohan** » 13 May 2013 22:06

standard procedure to ground a type following a crash until the root cause can be determined

wilson_th · Post by **wilson_th** » 14 May 2013 19:24

http://www.hindustantimes.com/India-new ... 59328.aspx

The crash was apparently due to whiteout conditions, in which snow and clouds change the way in which light is reflected and only dark objects are visible. The army has ordered an inquiry.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 15 May 2013 06:43

I am thinking for our special needs , can a ultrasound or laser system be devised with transmitters below and to the sides that use reflectometry to generate a tcas type audible and visual alarm with distance measurement when ground or hill gets too close....this will act as a sanity check during landing.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 15 May 2013 09:03

Dhruv Walk Around

Dhruv Cockpit

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 15 May 2013 09:36

nik wrote:Isn't this a bit over reaction? Did the Mil series get grounded after any crashes? Is rest of India like Siachen?

I like been playing safe but the Indian Army's fetish for imported maal makes me suspect of their motives.

Did you think before morphing into key-board ninja? and casting aspersions and making gratuitous remarks?

Has it occurred to you that if it is even suspected that crash is due to some mechanical failure, then the entire fleet needs to be grounded. And the cause ascertained on downed aircraft. IA operates 5 squadrons of ALH and more than 3 times are on order between IA and IAF. So, you can stop this unnecessary whine about IA and foreign equipment and sh1t like that.

It seems everyone on BRF is more patriot than the next poster and must display his patriotism by passing inane comments on the army on everything; whether one understands the matter or even spends micro seconds understanding the same is irrelevant. There seems to be some serious trend of wearing ones patriotism on one's sleeve.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 15 May 2013 10:00

nik wrote:Isn't this a bit over reaction? Did the Mil series get grounded after any crashes? Is rest of India like Siachen?

I like been playing safe but the Indian Army's fetish for imported maal makes me suspect of their motives.

SOP , In past IAF have grounded fleet of MKI , Jags , Mirages and you name it temporarily pending preliminary investigation from Crash , Even Dhruv were grounded temporarily when tail rotor had some issues that lead to a crash.

member_26622 · Post by **member_26622** » 15 May 2013 17:55

rohitvats wrote: Has it occurred to you that if it is even suspected that crash is due to some mechanical failure, then the entire fleet needs to be grounded. And the cause ascertained on downed aircraft. IA operates 5 squadrons of ALH and more than 3 times are on order between IA and IAF. So, you can stop this unnecessary whine about IA and foreign equipment and sh1t like that.

That was my contention. If you are operating 5 squadrons for a while then why ground all of them when the incident happens in one of the most demanding and unique environments.