LCH and other Helicopters Discussion Thread

Pratik_S · Post by **Pratik_S** » 18 May 2010 16:47

nishu wrote:guys check this out its so cool http://img709.imageshack.us/img709/8426 ... dongro.jpg

I think the Brazilians are getting such birds.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 18 May 2010 16:49

nishu wrote:guys check this out its so cool http://img709.imageshack.us/img709/8426 ... dongro.jpg

It ain't cool when it's in the wrong thread. We are looking for LCH pics - not what you have posted.

Where's the thumbs down icon?

Pratik_S · Post by **Pratik_S** » 18 May 2010 16:50

sum wrote:LCH is putting up a Aero-India like show today....really lucky that got a ringside view.

Truely a Beautiful and super agile bird.

Might be a practice run for the inaugural flight, been told that the bird is very agile for its type.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 18 May 2010 16:59

sathyaC wrote: Only a 15ft Rd that divides my office and the HAL airport compound, more over my office is on the second floor much higher than the airport compound so i have a birds eye view of the airport

I must remember to hit a golf ball through your window out of sheer jealousy.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 18 May 2010 17:08

wizard wrote: I observed a cobra helicopter here in boston and went up to the crew to ask them if the cockpit glass was light artillary proof. To my surprise , I was told that it was just an acrylic glass and not bullet proof. Instead they have put some armor around the pilots seat and face , which looked to me like a smarter solution to keep the weight down.

Interesting. AFAIK the Apache and the Mi 28 (and our own Hinds) have so called "bulletproof" glass. But someone has posted a comment on shiv(aroor)'s blog that the LCH glass area will be "reduced"

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 18 May 2010 17:45

people are experimenting with new transparent materials that are not prohibitvely heavy.
http://www.af.mil/news/story.asp?id=123012131

Pratik_S · Post by **Pratik_S** » 18 May 2010 18:17

23rd May
Along with LCH there will Kirans, Jags, LCA and even may be Su-30MKI. Apart from that LCH will perform a maneuver where it will be flying inverted.

sathyaC · Post by **sathyaC** » 18 May 2010 18:23

on Sunday il be on the roof of my office

Kartik · Post by **Kartik** » 18 May 2010 22:20

Shiv wrote: Fair enough - but looking at pictures of this prototype it appears to me that they have not even fitted the thick bulletproof glass on the cockpit that I would expect in a combat helicopter - I am expecting that will change. And all those munitions are of no use if the nose mounted designator is a dummy which it is. And if a real designator is fitted in the nose they would have to slave it to cockpit electronics and helmet mounted sights, which cannot be done unless you replace the dummy in the nose with the real thing. So to me it appears that there is a long way to go.

Are you sure that the sensor turret is a dummy ? I can't say for sure that it’s a dummy. It looks quite similar to the one seen on the WSI Dhruv. We know that the WSI Dhruv has been flying for a while now, and that the MBDA Mistral has already been test-fired from it. And I would assume that most internal displays and flight menus as well as sensor displays in the cockpit will be somewhat similar. And since its been done on the WSI Dhruv it's not like it will be a completely novel effort for the guys doing it. The architecture of the system will be kept quite similar to minimise effort and time, so I'd expect that they'd have it up and running already or at least soon enough.

Also regarding the payload, I don't think that attack gunships have as many issues as fast jets or even slower turboprops. The aero-elastic as well as aerodynamic issues that a gunship would face due to its range of speeds for weapon employment mean that the risk is lower and the development effort may be smaller as well. it would still involve studying the effects of the rotor downwash on the weapons during separation as well as during regular carriage, but because it is nowhere near high subsonic or transonic speeds, the entire process of simulation, analysis and validation through tests and trials may be shorter.

sathyaC · Post by **sathyaC** » 18 May 2010 22:35

guys do u people know the approximate time when LCH test flight would take place on Sunday
so i can be on time

Raja Bose · Post by **Raja Bose** » 18 May 2010 22:38

sathyaC wrote: Only a 15ft Rd that divides my office and the HAL airport compound, more over my office is on the second floor much higher than the airport compound so i have a birds eye view of the airport

Man, you fellas are uber lucky!!!

Pics, Videos for the rest of us unfortunates please !

Bala Vignesh · Post by **Bala Vignesh** » 18 May 2010 23:45

have to go on an official tour on 22nd...

... This when i had arranged a camcorder for the occasion... Life sure sucks at times...

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 19 May 2010 00:39

Kartik wrote:
Shiv wrote: Fair enough - but looking at pictures of this prototype it appears to me that they have not even fitted the thick bulletproof glass on the cockpit that I would expect in a combat helicopter - I am expecting that will change. And all those munitions are of no use if the nose mounted designator is a dummy which it is. And if a real designator is fitted in the nose they would have to slave it to cockpit electronics and helmet mounted sights, which cannot be done unless you replace the dummy in the nose with the real thing. So to me it appears that there is a long way to go.
Are you sure that the sensor turret is a dummy ? I can't say for sure that it’s a dummy...

It is not a dummy. Was reading some comments on a blog. There was somebody who seemed to be in the know of things who had given a lot of details. Alas! I can't recall where now

.

Maybe Pratik's panwalla can help?!!!

Kartik · Post by **Kartik** » 19 May 2010 01:28

indranilroy wrote:
Kartik wrote:
Are you sure that the sensor turret is a dummy ? I can't say for sure that it’s a dummy...
It is not a dummy. Was reading some comments on a blog. There was somebody who seemed to be in the know of things who had given a lot of details. Alas! I can't recall where now .

Maybe Pratik's panwalla can help?!!!

Thanks for replying to that.

I personally don't see any reason why they'd install a dummy optronics turret when the instruments and sensors within the gimbal and the turret itself are functional on the WSI Dhruv. I'd guess that those parts were simple mockups and just a placeholder or used to mimic weight and CG if the actual instruments and sensors were still being developed by some lab. but in this case we can assume that they have existing sensors (most likely imported) that they can use as is without major mods mainly because the WSI Dhruv has been flying for so long now.

Just because the LCH is a prototype doesn't mean that every part of it is untested and hence either non-functioning or not yet up to design spec. the fact that it has plenty of systems that are basically carried over from the ALH means that the system already is somewhat mature in some key areas (engine, transmission, gearbox, blades, avionics). And for other major systems like landing gear (heard a few cribs about that here) they have separate system and sub-system level checks before they are mated with the fuselage (or whatever other part) so they must be upto full-spec. It costs a lot of money to keep changing designs, both at engineering and manufacturing levels as well, so in most cases they will only make changes to the prototype when necessary.

My only worry is that HAL and DRDO in general don't seem to do a good job of Weight Budgeting. No design should end up being nearly 25% overweight. That indicates that they're not doing a good job of weight budgeting at the detail part level- that then translates to heavier than expected assemblies (fasteners etc will not be heavier than expected) and in the end a system that needs quite a bit of weight reduction.

IMO, every designer and stress analyst should be made aware of the expected weight of the part being designed or analysed by them. Any additional weight over that and they need to have a good reason to explain it- it may well be necessary due to various reasons (could be due to higher than expected temperature, dynamic or static loads, vibration or fatigue related issues, etc.) but many a times it may be simply due to lack of experience that they end up adding weight (for eg. higher than required factors of safety, wrong material used when a lighter or stronger material may have been available, more gauge or thickness than required for some metallic parts, not using design best practices, etc.). Its much easier to keep track of and control weight initially during the design phase than later when the drawings have already been released to manufacturing..then re-work is required, tooling may be required to be changed (in this case it may be a very custom built prototype) and you add cost and time to the program.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 19 May 2010 06:16

Look at photos of a real live working designator of the sort that the LCH prototype is carrying and you will find that it has lenses and visible optics that are open during ops and kept covered with a soft cover (or lens covers) when not in use.

Now go and have a look at the LCH photos and compare it with the dummies that were mounted in models in Aero India. In fact some photos of those dummies look more authentic. What the LCH has been shown flying with certainly has no visible optics but appears to have the mechanical 3-axes movement capability that the real thing has. Even that has not been shown in different positions. Under the circumstances it will take more than a second hand quote from an anonymous blog post to convince me that the LCH is carrying a real live designator. I seriously doubt that they will be test flying the prototype with a dummy although I take Kartik's point that it is quite likely that the capability is already known from the armed Dhruv.

Too many "chaiwalas" are appearing nowadays to give us a warm fuzzy. The last time that happened it was disastrous for BR when the chaiwalas upped the yield of Indian nukes to megaton plus level and the range to ICBM reach until the house of cards came crashing down.

I will believe that the thing in the nose can be replaced with a real live one when it is officially announced. I am not expecting photographs because frankly I have not even seen a clear photo of an Indiana/c with a Litening whose lenses are uncovered.

May I add a footnote that Helicopters cannot "fly" upside down. At least one helo I know of (can't recall which) can do a true loop. The Dhruv almost gets there, It is very good and probably more agile than many other helos. But "flying upside down"? No.

Lets' stop taking the chaiwala paanwala business too far. Thanks.

Kartik · Post by **Kartik** » 19 May 2010 08:18

shiv wrote:Look at photos of a real live working designator of the sort that the LCH prototype is carrying and you will find that it has lenses and visible optics that are open during ops and kept covered with a soft cover (or lens covers) when not in use. Now go and have a look at the LCH photos and compare it with the dummies that were mounted in models in Aero India. In fact some photos of those dummies look more authentic. What the LCH has been shown flying with certainly has no visible optics but appears to have the mechanical 3-axes movement capability that the real thing has. Even that has not been shown in different positions. Under the circumstances it will take more than a second hand quote from an anonymous blog post to convince me that the LCH is carrying a real live designator. I seriously doubt that they will be test flying the prototype with a dummy although I take Kartik's point that it is quite likely that the capability is already known from the armed Dhruv.

take a look at these 2 pics of the WSI Dhruv.
image1
image2

exact same turret and optronics gimbal. Again, the lens isn't open nor do you see any glass. Does that mean that its a dummy instead of a working optronics sensor ? maybe. I'm not sure.

But keep in mind that the WSI Dhruv in many a ways is a proving ground for the LCH. For instance the side-mounted weapons pylons- the ones used are the ALKAN Release Unit Type 2307 that is used on the WSI Dhruv and as per ALKAN they are to be used on the LCH as well, albeit with panels covering the rod. I'm talking about the rod and the release unit as seen in this picture. HAL manufactures it under at ToT agreement with ALKAN.

May I add a footnote that Helicopters cannot "fly" upside down. At least one helo I know of (can't recall which) can do a true loop. The Dhruv almost gets there, It is very good and probably more agile than many other helos. But "flying upside down"?

Westland Lynx can do a back-flip..no flying upside down as you said, but even a back flip is an amazing maneuver to see a helicopter do. and the Eurocopter Tiger can roll over completely on its side. See these 2 videos.

Lynx backflip
Tiger rolling over totally

Kartik · Post by **Kartik** » 19 May 2010 08:20

BTW, while looking for videos of the WSI Dhruv, found this video of the Dhruv. The video seems to be made by HAL because its got amazing footage and includes the Dhruv in Chile !

link

Pratik_S · Post by **Pratik_S** » 19 May 2010 08:47

My bad, by inverted I meant backflip like the linx. Will try to find about the optronics sensor.

Pratik_S · Post by **Pratik_S** » 19 May 2010 17:17

The optronics sensor is real but it is not connected hence can't function. But it is possible to connect it. There in no real need for it to function at this moment because TD-1 is not going to be simulating combat conditions expect carrying combat load.

putnanja · Post by **putnanja** » 20 May 2010 00:43

Indian LCH Eyes First Official Flight

...
HAL Chairman Ashok Nayak told AVIATION WEEK that the “designers, engineers and pilots are extremely happy with the performance so far. We are confident of flying the second prototype of LCH in August or September this year.”

Several other aircraft will precede the LCH during the event. According to insiders, the Intermediate Jet Trainer Sitara from the limited series production (LSP) block will be first to fly, followed by the Light Combat Aircraft Tejas LSP-3. “Then the Hawk [trainer] built from the raw material phase at HAL will grace the skies followed by an upgraded Dornier with glass cockpit,” an official coordinating the show says. “The first Advanced Light Helicopter Dhruv from the 159 order block [105 Army, 54 IAF] will be next in line, and finally the baby of the moment, LCH, will enter.”
...
...
The LCH team is expected to perform some limited maneuvers during the flight.

nishu · Post by **nishu** » 21 May 2010 19:56

[IMG=http://img443.imageshack.us/img443/6227/lchy.th.jpg][/IMG]

dont know how to resize it so posted the whole url .

chiru · Post by **chiru** » 21 May 2010 19:59

^^^ ayyo saar ill do it for you

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 21 May 2010 20:05

chiru wrote:^^^ ayyo saar ill do it for you
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_QKkSf03VuFY/S ... 00/LCH.jpg

The LCH is carrying a ful complement of stores on its wings in this photo. Now we only have to wait for shiv to come and call them dummies.

chiru · Post by **chiru** » 21 May 2010 20:08

^^ SRK sir are you speaking about aroor ???

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 21 May 2010 20:11

chiru wrote:^^ SRK sir are you speaking about aroor ???

No no that fossil on BRF

pralay · Post by **pralay** » 21 May 2010 20:18

^^^ ayyo saar ill do it for you
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_QKkSf03VuFY/S ... 00/LCH.jpg

aha i can spaat that gun/raakit lancher pod on jahaj e kufr.

rgsrini · Post by **rgsrini** » 21 May 2010 21:16

The horizontal line has increased the "awesomeness coefficient" a 1000 times, IMKO (In my Kufr opinion).

Anujan · Post by **Anujan** » 21 May 2010 21:29

chiru wrote:^^^ ayyo saar ill do it for you

The blade is bent on the Indian LCH

But this Hind can fly with just its tail rotor without switching on its main rotor

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w7m6BnwXFcc

nikhil_p · Post by **nikhil_p** » 21 May 2010 21:32

shiv wrote:
chiru wrote:^^ SRK sir are you speaking about aroor ???
No no that fossil on BRF

Fossils are generally not so ACTIVE!!!

OT!!

Kartik · Post by **Kartik** » 21 May 2010 22:02

shiv wrote:
chiru wrote:^^ SRK sir are you speaking about aroor ???
No no that fossil on BRF

Sagrawal · Post by **Sagrawal** » 22 May 2010 10:44

LCH Alert

LCH in air followed by two ALH from Sarang team. Awesome sight to watch. Clicked few pics however my SLR has just 18-55 mm lens so not close enough. I wish I had one of the pocket cameras with high digital zoom.

Sagrawal · Post by **Sagrawal** » 22 May 2010 10:52

LCH and Sarang team performing, seems like rehearsal for tomorrows event.

Sagrawal · Post by **Sagrawal** » 22 May 2010 11:22

Here are couple of pics.

http://picasaweb.google.com/agrawalsumit25

Raja Bose · Post by **Raja Bose** » 22 May 2010 12:08

Anujan wrote:
chiru wrote:^^^ ayyo saar ill do it for you
But this Hind can fly with just its tail rotor without switching on its main rotor
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w7m6BnwXFcc

Neat recording trick!

SKumarM · Post by **SKumarM** » 22 May 2010 12:16

Sagrawal wrote:Here are couple of pics.

http://picasaweb.google.com/agrawalsumit25

I was on Yemlur road and saw the beauty flying. First hawk tainer, lca, Dornier and in the climax lch came . Guessing they follow the same sequnce tomorrow. It started around 10 am !!

Bolasani · Post by **Bolasani** » 22 May 2010 12:49

A couple of pics from my side:

http://picasaweb.google.com/bolasanibk/LCH

From what I could see, this is pretty agile bird. I saw it climbing and descending almost vertically, fly backwards and slow rotations while staying on the same point.

Viv S · Post by **Viv S** » 22 May 2010 12:56

Bolasani wrote:A couple of pics from my side:

http://picasaweb.google.com/bolasanibk/LCH

From what I could see, this is pretty agile bird. I saw it climbing and descending almost vertically, fly backwards and slow rotations while staying on the same point.

Lovely action pics. Thanks.

bodhi · Post by **bodhi** » 22 May 2010 15:49

in the third pic...is it doing the back flip we were talking about the other day?

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 22 May 2010 16:57

in this video one sees a apache do a barrel roll in horizonfal fwd light and then a backflip (loop the loop)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r6dzXb-D ... re=related

its nose sensor suite has the adv of main target tracking and designation kit at the bottom (for gunner) and a smaller pilots night vision thing on top
that rotates independently. have not seen it elsewhere.

shukla · Post by **shukla** » 22 May 2010 18:27

Antony not to attend LCH’s maiden flight function in Bengaluru

Sitanshu Kar , Director Indian Air Force Public Relations, told media persons here that Antony had expressed shock over Saturday’s tragedy at Mangalore airport, in which 158 people were killed, and therefore, had decided not attend Sunday’s function.

Kar, however, said that the inaugural flight launch function of the LCH, which has been developed by the Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) would continue as per schedule with Indian Air Force Chief Air Chief Marshal P V Naik being the chief guest.