LCH and other Helicopters Discussion Thread

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Hari Nair
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Re: LCH and other Helicopters Discussion Thread

Postby Hari Nair » 02 Sep 2010 19:32

nits wrote:
Hari Nair wrote:@Manish_P & @nits - Oracle indeed !! :rotfl: The first two prototypes are expected to have the "default colour Black" as you put it and the other helicopters that follow are expected to be in standard IAF Grey. The IAF Grey is actually quite difficult to spot against most terrain and sky conditions.


Thanks sir; some more on color front :P Does Tiger on LCH has some specific meaning? also i was just thinking how will Tiger look on grey color scheme...

There's no way the IAF will have colourful logos on their operational aircraft! The logos are only on the prototypes and the tiger logo is well .. just a logo! Go ahead and give us a logo for the TD-2. We’ll consider painting it on if it looks good.

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Re: LCH and other Helicopters Discussion Thread

Postby Dmurphy » 02 Sep 2010 20:04

indranilroy wrote:Hari Nair Sir, if you were to write a critique on the LCH, what would it look like?
Dude, he still works there...so Ssshhh! :D

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Re: LCH and other Helicopters Discussion Thread

Postby Indranil » 02 Sep 2010 20:41

Dmurphy wrote:
indranilroy wrote:Hari Nair Sir, if you were to write a critique on the LCH, what would it look like?
Dude, he still works there...so Ssshhh! :D

:D. Rightly so :D. I was being too greedy I guess. Not knowing any panwala, I was trying to learn as much from the man himself. I was actually looking for a commentary and not a criticism. Ofcourse, it is left to the discretion of the man himself and what he should/could reveal. Time for me to go Ssshhh! :D

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Re: LCH and other Helicopters Discussion Thread

Postby neerajb » 02 Sep 2010 20:55

Hari Nair wrote:Go ahead and give us a logo for the TD-2. We’ll consider painting it on if it looks good.


Hari Saar a few suggestions from my side.

Image
Image
Image

Cheers....

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Re: LCH and other Helicopters Discussion Thread

Postby Hari Nair » 02 Sep 2010 21:09

uddu wrote:Hari can the Attack heli if attacked using stingers (somewhat longer distance) can hide just by taking cover behind a building. Say it's at a height and sees missile beings fired. Can the pilot immediately reduce the height to get behind the building and save himself? Or the Flares are the only solution to such a threat.
Uddu, the point I was trying to make is -that Black Hawk's tail rotor was shot off at short range by a low-tech RPG, against which there are no countermeasures. That highlights the sort of ambush scenarios that awaits the utility / attack helicopter that gets too close in an urban conflict scenario.

- Re 'ducking' the missile, I suppose its theoretically possible, that's provided the pilot is aware at the instant of launch and bearing of the missile. Hopefully ducking behind an obstruction may break lock of the missile's seeker.

But then, you could have a few more bu**ers on that obstruction you are ducking behind, ready with a couple of RPGs and small arms to let loose... and in that context check out Shiv's previous post on a typical skyline.....
Last edited by Hari Nair on 02 Sep 2010 21:19, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: LCH and other Helicopters Discussion Thread

Postby Hari Nair » 02 Sep 2010 21:19

neerajb wrote:
Hari Nair wrote:Go ahead and give us a logo for the TD-2. We’ll consider painting it on if it looks good.


Hari Saar a few suggestions from my side.

Cheers....

Hey, neerajb, some good stuff there! Possible to get some high res files of the same? And hope those aren't copyrighted?

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Re: LCH and other Helicopters Discussion Thread

Postby neerajb » 02 Sep 2010 21:59

Just picked them up from Google, definitely not my work and probably copyrighted. I thought some painter manually paints them and hence the suggestions. Is it done the same way logos are printed on T shirts?

Cheers....

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Re: LCH and other Helicopters Discussion Thread

Postby rgsrini » 02 Sep 2010 22:35

Hari Nair wrote:Go ahead and give us a logo for the TD-2. We’ll consider painting it on if it looks good.

HNji,
IMVHO we should leave it without any logo. Logo makes it look very childish like a hero (or villain) in TN soap opera (need to keep an aggressive face and shout as loud as he can to show he is a man.). Having said that, I will take LCH even if you paint it in Pink and put a bollywood hero's photo on it.

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Re: LCH and other Helicopters Discussion Thread

Postby Kartik » 03 Sep 2010 00:18

Hari Nair sir, please look at the previous page for my post. I was hoping to get some insights on the issues of IR signature and stealth on the LCH.

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Re: LCH and other Helicopters Discussion Thread

Postby Hari Nair » 03 Sep 2010 09:09

rgsrini wrote:
Hari Nair wrote:Go ahead and give us a logo for the TD-2. We’ll consider painting it on if it looks good.

HNji,
IMVHO we should leave it without any logo. Logo makes it look very childish like a hero (or villain) in TN soap opera (need to keep an aggressive face and shout as loud as he can to show he is a man.). Having said that, I will take LCH even if you paint it in Pink and put a bollywood hero's photo on it.
Rightho! point taken -no logo is also an option. We will put that option in the draw-box!

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Re: LCH and other Helicopters Discussion Thread

Postby ks_sachin » 03 Sep 2010 10:38

HeRe is Mr Nair, sorry dont't have your rank Sir and all we can engage him on is what bloody logo we will have on the LCH. Dear god I log on 10 times a day but half that time is spent sifting through some inane discussion.

On another note Nair Sir would you happen to know Sq Ldr PVR Murthy...He flew choppers as well untill...

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Re: LCH and other Helicopters Discussion Thread

Postby Hari Nair » 03 Sep 2010 12:44

Kartik wrote:Hari Nair sir. I must once again state that your presence on this thread has elevated it to a very different level. :)

I had 2 questions to ask you. One is regarding the IR signature of the LCH. I had expected initially that the LCH would go with a Black Hole Ocarina (Ocarina means multiple exhausts) type IR suppressing system but instead what appears to be the case is that a Black Hole IRSS has been used where the hot parts of the engine have been optically blocked with internal bends leading to the exhaust duct facing upwards and out of direct line of sight from the ground (from where most MANPADS will be fired).

Can you shed more light on the design principles, what guided the designers in this case (weight and cost compromises or performance issues)?

We have also had discussions on this earlier..link to our earlier discussions. As you can see, you were well known on BRF even then.

Also, I read that HAL sub-contracted the building of the RCS model of the LCH to some engineering firm in Bangalore. Can you shed more light on how rigorous the stealth design has been and what advantages the LCH has visually and RCS wise against any other attack helicopter or even the Dhruv WSI ?

If the topic is too sensitive to discuss, then its ok we can leave it at this.

Thank you very much for your time.
Kartik, you insight is pretty deep enough indeed!

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Re: LCH and other Helicopters Discussion Thread

Postby Hari Nair » 03 Sep 2010 12:56

nachiket wrote:
Hari Nair wrote: Well in these politically correct times, perhaps non-lethal weapons need to be the norm! Any ideas, anybody??

Sir, you probably meant that as a joke but in case you did not, I do not understand why even in PC times, would non-lethal weapons be useful on a military helicopter. As far as as I understand non-lethal weapons are useful only for dispersing angry mobs of civilians or taking down criminals. What use would they be in a war?

And sorry to be late in this but, Welcome to BRF! It is an honour to have you here. Now if you could only manage to persuade your other pilot colleagues to join up as well... :mrgreen:

Thanks, nachiket! I'll do my bit to persuade my fixed wing colleagues.

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Re: LCH and other Helicopters Discussion Thread

Postby nits » 03 Sep 2010 13:04

ks_sachin wrote:HeRe is Mr Nair, sorry dont't have your rank Sir and all we can engage him on is what bloody logo we will have on the LCH. Dear god I log on 10 times a day but half that time is spent sifting through some inane discussion.

On another note Nair Sir would you happen to know Sq Ldr PVR Murthy...He flew choppers as well untill...


How about you starting some meaningful discussion in that case...

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Re: LCH and other Helicopters Discussion Thread

Postby uddu » 03 Sep 2010 13:09

Thanks Hari Nair for the reply, and Shiv, I see a lot of targets. :lol:
Regarding the logo how the logo will be drawn? Like in the case of Dhruv attack helicopter or Sarang or just like the first prototype of LCH?
I prefer this imagehttp://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Brahminy_kite_young.jpg
It's free to use and can be used for commercial purpose but may have to acknowledge the person who took the photograph, one Mr.Challiyan. Also don't know whether the person has to be acknowledged if looking at the picture and painting it on the LCH.

I'm trying to fit the graphics perfectly onto the LCH image. Will paste the link later after succeeding. It looks good if the picture is drawn across the LCH than as a simple Logo in the first prototype.
This is how it will look like after the painting. Some part of the wing may not be visible. one of the rotor can also be painted with the wing. Also the IAF logo can move slightly to the right or top along with the HAL logo.
http://rapidshare.com/files/416785781/LCHlogo1.png

If only the head is drawn like in the first LCH, then
http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Haliastur_indus_-Jurong_Bird_Park-8a.jpg
or
http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Brahminy_Kite.jpg
can be selected.
Last edited by uddu on 03 Sep 2010 13:27, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: LCH and other Helicopters Discussion Thread

Postby Hari Nair » 03 Sep 2010 13:12

gnair wrote:Hari Nair Sir,
Deeply appreciate your contribution to this thread and forum. Since i have an inherent interest in all things related to flight safety, I have a question regarding the ALH. What exactly happened, and what may have been the cause during the Sarang practice session of the last Aero- India that resulted in a fatality? And were there similarities in flight profile to the Ecuador incident? Was it engine related, transmission or human factor? Thanks very much.

Thanks, gnair. I presume with your stated interest in flight safety, you obviously know much more than what you are letting on. So go on, why don't you tell us what you think of the ALH. And on that count may I also request for an impartial insight into the flight safety stats of contemporary helicopter types during their development and in-service usage (military & civil). So go on sir, the 'transmit' button is all yours!

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Re: LCH and other Helicopters Discussion Thread

Postby shiv » 03 Sep 2010 13:41

ks_sachin wrote:On another note Nair Sir would you happen to know Sq Ldr PVR Murthy...He flew choppers as well untill...

I know him. Why do you ask?

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Re: LCH and other Helicopters Discussion Thread

Postby Pratyush » 03 Sep 2010 13:53

Just a Noobee question,

What is the diffrence in the weapons suit of the armed Dhruv and the LCH, in terms of sensors, missiles, gun etc.

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Re: LCH and other Helicopters Discussion Thread

Postby shiv » 03 Sep 2010 20:11

Hari Nair wrote:
gnair wrote:Hari Nair Sir,
Deeply appreciate your contribution to this thread and forum. Since i have an inherent interest in all things related to flight safety, I have a question regarding the ALH. What exactly happened, and what may have been the cause during the Sarang practice session of the last Aero- India that resulted in a fatality? And were there similarities in flight profile to the Ecuador incident? Was it engine related, transmission or human factor? Thanks very much.

Thanks, gnair. I presume with your stated interest in flight safety, you obviously know much more than what you are letting on. So go on, why don't you tell us what you think of the ALH. And on that count may I also request for an impartial insight into the flight safety stats of contemporary helicopter types during their development and in-service usage (military & civil). So go on sir, the 'transmit' button is all yours!


I think Hari Nair was on the enquiry committee of the Ecuador incident and the cause was published and is linked in the Flight Safety thread.

The Sarang accident was reported in the media as pilot error. Note that the IAF are a careful bunch. Recall how all Sukhois were grounded when one suddenly fell out of the sky. So were MiG 27s. And HPT 32s are still grounded. But the Sarang team went right ahead and performed even after that accident in 2007 - which suggests that a mechanical cause was pretty much ruled out.

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Re: LCH and other Helicopters Discussion Thread

Postby Vivek K » 03 Sep 2010 20:20

Hari Nair Sir, a lot of us were very happy that the pilots in the Ecuador crash survived. Also there was another somewhere in India where a Dhruv set down somewhere and the crew survived. In this one there was some issue with composite materials in the tail rotor (??). Is this issue licked?

Every day with the Dhruv probably generates a wonderful amount of data that can be used for the development of the LUH, the LCH and hopefully the AMH and the AHH (advanced medium and the advanced heavy helicopter). I can say that for the majority of BRFites - we are very proud of the Dhruv and want to see it everywhere.

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Re: LCH and other Helicopters Discussion Thread

Postby anand_sankar » 03 Sep 2010 22:11

I remember being at the Sarang Aero-India '07 crash site, the morning after the incident. The mood of the team, whom we met with the commander of Yelahanka AFB was sombre and you could clearly sense they were shocked. But the spirit was simply "The show must go on". The media was as usual doing its silly stories, but you could see the team wanted to do nothing other than do the routine. And they put up a fantastic display.

The Dhruv tail rotor incident happened during a ferry flight. A new chopper ordered by the Orissa government was being ferried to B'neshwar. The tail rotor gave way over Andhra Pradesh and the chopper had to do a forced landing. You want to hear the story of the landing, catch hold of Wg Cdr NS Krishna over a cup of uber-sweet fauji tea, he was the pilot that day. Nothing like hearing it from the horse's mouth.

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Re: LCH and other Helicopters Discussion Thread

Postby nachiket » 03 Sep 2010 22:13

anand_sankar wrote: The tail rotor gave way over Andhra Pradesh and the chopper had to do a forced landing.


Was the cause determined?

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Re: LCH and other Helicopters Discussion Thread

Postby Rahul M » 03 Sep 2010 22:23

it was an issue with the composite tail rotor and IIRC the whole fleet was overhauled at HAL.

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Re: LCH and other Helicopters Discussion Thread

Postby anand_sankar » 03 Sep 2010 22:24

Mr Nair,

Remembering the encounter with Wg Cdr Krishna, has awakened something that has been dormant for a while. Well, he is the one who put a devil in a small corner of my head, with the line, "Oh, you ride a Bullet, you must learn a helicopter now."

Can you fill us in on what is the status of HAL's Helicopter Academy? I'm going back about almost four years now, when Wg Cdr Upadhyay said they hardly get any civilian students and SBI had a really subsidised loan for students. But unfortunately I was committed to a different career then and had no time.

I have quit working full-time now and manage a business of my own. Its my dream to learn flying in a couple of years, fixed wing or choppers though, I'm confused. It would be great if you could give us updated info on the HAL Academy.

Thanks.

(PS: The HAL Academy shades the choice, its next door :D)

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Re: LCH and other Helicopters Discussion Thread

Postby Vivek K » 03 Sep 2010 22:45

I think that the entire Dhruv fleet was grounded and checked. There was some adhesion issue. However, the matter was professionally tackled and we hope is licked forever. Have the IAF or the IA ordered any of the weaponized Dhruvs?

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Re: LCH and other Helicopters Discussion Thread

Postby vasu_ray » 03 Sep 2010 23:56

couple of questions Hari Nair,

1) http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=File:Helicopter_aerial_refueling.jpg

2) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Indian_air_force_dhruv_helicopter_j4042_arp.jpg

Looking at the above two pictures, can they mount a retractable refuelling probe in the place of the gas thruster? it should be detachable depending on the mission needs

3) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:DRDO_AWACS.JPG

what does it take to mount a smaller version of the antenna unit being installed on the Embraer from Fig 3) fit into the tail boom of the Dhruv or LCH? it can then establish a data link with a ground station or a naval ship where operators can pour on the info, to compensate for the shift in the center of gravity having a bigger tail wing as shown in the Fig 1) helps?

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Re: LCH and other Helicopters Discussion Thread

Postby gnair » 04 Sep 2010 01:25

Hari Nair wrote:
gnair wrote:
Hari Nair Sir,
Deeply appreciate your contribution to this thread and forum. Since i have an inherent interest in all things related to flight safety, I have a question regarding the ALH. What exactly happened, and what may have been the cause during the Sarang practice session of the last Aero- India that resulted in a fatality? And were there similarities in flight profile to the Ecuador incident? Was it engine related, transmission or human factor? Thanks very much.

Thanks, gnair. I presume with your stated interest in flight safety, you obviously know much more than what you are letting on. So go on, why don't you tell us what you think of the ALH. And on that count may I also request for an impartial insight into the flight safety stats of contemporary helicopter types during their development and in-service usage (military & civil). So go on sir, the 'transmit' button is all yours!


Hari Nair Sir, Shiv and others, thanks for the response. Seriously, i don't know anything more than what i have read in the local press at that time and since they sounded vague, i thought i'll try and get the inside perspective. And i haven't heard anything adverse about the design or manufacture of the ALH either from industry circles, barring the tail rotor issue that has since been rectified. On the contrary, i still hear great stuff about the Tarang performance in Singapore a few years. That must have been the best PR exercise by the IAF for all of the ASEAN region.
Coming to the point, accident investigation reports are always sensitive, especially when there is a situation, where we've lost one of our own.
My own speculative question is 1) Was It an unintended induced stall due to lack of power/speed at a certain angle of attack or
2) Was it Lack of clearance/height for recovery, and unexpected delay in relay of engine power to transmission/rotors leading to a CFIT during a hover.
Thanks.

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Re: LCH and other Helicopters Discussion Thread

Postby ks_sachin » 04 Sep 2010 10:14

nits wrote:How about you starting some meaningful discussion in that case...


Will leave it to the ye worthies...too much clutter as it is.....

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Re: LCH and other Helicopters Discussion Thread

Postby ks_sachin » 04 Sep 2010 10:17

shiv wrote:I know him. Why do you ask?


Long story. How do you know him....Are we talking about the same - Cunningham Road / HAL...

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Re: LCH and other Helicopters Discussion Thread

Postby shiv » 04 Sep 2010 11:05

ks_sachin wrote:
shiv wrote:I know him. Why do you ask?


Long story. How do you know him....Are we talking about the same - Cunningham Road / HAL...

Yes.

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Re: LCH and other Helicopters Discussion Thread

Postby Gagan » 05 Sep 2010 00:55

anand_sankar wrote:A new chopper ordered by the Orissa government was being ferried to B'neshwar. The tail rotor gave way over Andhra Pradesh and the chopper had to do a forced landing.

I think the chopper was for the Jharkhand government and not the orrisa government. The Jharkhand government again protested at the delay, because the same chopper had some issues with, I think the tail rotor (but I am not sure) and had been taken back to HAL.
Then there was some news later in the newspapers that the Jharkhand government was finding it difficult to afford the Dhruv and they instead imported a videshi chopper (I think bell or something).
The issue to me then seemed like the state in question was wanting to import a chopper either way.

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Re: LCH and other Helicopters Discussion Thread

Postby Hari Nair » 05 Sep 2010 13:19

gnair wrote:Hari Nair wrote:
gnair wrote:
Hari Nair Sir,
Deeply appreciate your contribution to this thread and forum. Since i have an inherent interest in all things related to flight safety, I have a question regarding the ALH. What exactly happened, and what may have been the cause during the Sarang practice session of the last Aero- India that resulted in a fatality? And were there similarities in flight profile to the Ecuador incident? Was it engine related, transmission or human factor? Thanks very much.

Thanks, gnair. I presume with your stated interest in flight safety, you obviously know much more than what you are letting on. So go on, why don't you tell us what you think of the ALH. And on that count may I also request for an impartial insight into the flight safety stats of contemporary helicopter types during their development and in-service usage (military & civil). So go on sir, the 'transmit' button is all yours!


Hari Nair Sir, Shiv and others, thanks for the response. Seriously, i don't know anything more than what i have read in the local press at that time and since they sounded vague, i thought i'll try and get the inside perspective. And i haven't heard anything adverse about the design or manufacture of the ALH either from industry circles, barring the tail rotor issue that has since been rectified. On the contrary, i still hear great stuff about the Tarang performance in Singapore a few years. That must have been the best PR exercise by the IAF for all of the ASEAN region.
Coming to the point, accident investigation reports are always sensitive, especially when there is a situation, where we've lost one of our own.
My own speculative question is 1) Was It an unintended induced stall due to lack of power/speed at a certain angle of attack or
2) Was it Lack of clearance/height for recovery, and unexpected delay in relay of engine power to transmission/rotors leading to a CFIT during a hover.
Thanks.

Gnair,
I don’t believe you have either responded to my request or whether the gist of my message has even registered! Since we are in a serious & professional forum and need to rule out sciolists with perhaps ulterior motives from hijacking the thread, I’ll repeat my earlier reply:
“So go on, why don't you tell us what you think of the ALH.
And on that count may I also request for an impartial insight into the flight safety stats of contemporary helicopter types during their development and in-service usage (military & civil).”
So if we need to continue this discussion any further, please address my request in full.
And on that count may I point out sir, that its SARANG and not 'Tarang' or whatever you had typed. If in doubt, we can always take the trouble to 'Google', I suppose!!
Last edited by Hari Nair on 05 Sep 2010 15:12, edited 2 times in total.

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Postby ArmenT » 05 Sep 2010 15:03

For all the folks that keep asking stealth questions:

There are a number of ways that a helicopter can be detected:
(a) Visual
(b) Audio
(c) Heat
(d) Radar
(e) Electromagnetic
etc.

Visual: This refers to using eyeballs, telescope etc. Sad fact is that this is the #1 way most military helicopters are detected. If you look at the attrition rate due to various reasons, most helos have been lost due to small arms fire, MANPADS or AA fire from the ground. So the aim is to prevent visual detection as much as possible. Camo paint is one way to do it. However, it is more useful when the helo is on the ground, but it isn't nearly as helpful if the helo is moving, because the movement is detected better by people. Reducing reflection from the canopy is also one more thing that designers to do reduce visual detection.

Audio: There are many sources of noise from a helicopter. Blade noise from main rotor and tail rotor and engine noise are the three main sources. Sometimes terrain helps in mitigating detection, other ways to counter include using redesigning blade tips and slowing down engine speed as needed.

Heat: Heat from the engine can be tracked by infrared detectors. Way of getting around this is to cool off the exhaust gases via a heat exchanger with incoming cool air, so that the infrared signature is reduced. Another way is to use flares to try and confuse heat detectors. Of course, it is tougher to pack all this on smaller helos.

Radar: This is tricky because the rotating blades will reflect radar from various angles. Worse still, it produces a distinct pattern. The helo body will also reflect radar back. Ways to counter it are to fly low, so that the helo merges in with ground clutter. Another way is to use radar absorbent materials to try and absorb some of the radar energy instead of reflecting back and also design a stealthy shape (such as the cancelled RAH-66 Comanche project)

Electromagnetic: Transmissions from radar altimeter and nav. system, radio transmissions etc. can be used to detect the helo position. Ways to counter are to use passive nav. system (e.g.) GPS which does not transmit any signal and is only in listening mode. Radio transmissions should be kept to bare minimum and visual signals may be used instead.
Last edited by ArmenT on 05 Sep 2010 15:10, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: LCH and other Helicopters Discussion Thread

Postby Hari Nair » 05 Sep 2010 15:10

Gagan wrote:
anand_sankar wrote:A new chopper ordered by the Orissa government was being ferried to B'neshwar. The tail rotor gave way over Andhra Pradesh and the chopper had to do a forced landing.

I think the chopper was for the Jharkhand government and not the orrisa government. The Jharkhand government again protested at the delay, because the same chopper had some issues with, I think the tail rotor (but I am not sure) and had been taken back to HAL.
Then there was some news later in the newspapers that the Jharkhand government was finding it difficult to afford the Dhruv and they instead imported a videshi chopper (I think bell or something).
The issue to me then seemed like the state in question was wanting to import a chopper either way.

The Jharkhand Govt actually has another Dhruv that's flying quite well. Their ALH was grounded for a while because the crew were implicated by DGCA in a very definite Pilot Error incident during a flood relief sortie about a year ago. The replacement crew were selected (the helicopter was not flown in the interim for want of crew), trained and have taken over the helicopter a few months back and are doing quite well till date.

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Re: LCH and other Helicopters Discussion Thread

Postby gnair » 07 Sep 2010 05:24

Hari Nair wrote:
gnair wrote:
Hari Nair Sir,
Deeply appreciate your contribution to this thread and forum. Since i have an inherent interest in all things related to flight safety, I have a question regarding the ALH. What exactly happened, and what may have been the cause during the Sarang practice session of the last Aero- India that resulted in a fatality? And were there similarities in flight profile to the Ecuador incident? Was it engine related, transmission or human factor? Thanks very much.

Thanks, gnair. I presume with your stated interest in flight safety, you obviously know much more than what you are letting on. So go on, why don't you tell us what you think of the ALH. And on that count may I also request for an impartial insight into the flight safety stats of contemporary helicopter types during their development and in-service usage (military & civil). So go on sir, the 'transmit' button is all yours!


Hari Nair Sir, Shiv and others, thanks for the response. Seriously, i don't know anything more than what i have read in the local press at that time and since they sounded vague, i thought i'll try and get the inside perspective. And i haven't heard anything adverse about the design or manufacture of the ALH either from industry circles, barring the tail rotor issue that has since been rectified. On the contrary, i still hear great stuff about the Tarang performance in Singapore a few years. That must have been the best PR exercise by the IAF for all of the ASEAN region.
Coming to the point, accident investigation reports are always sensitive, especially when there is a situation, where we've lost one of our own.
My own speculative question is 1) Was It an unintended induced stall due to lack of power/speed at a certain angle of attack or
2) Was it Lack of clearance/height for recovery, and unexpected delay in relay of engine power to transmission/rotors leading to a CFIT during a hover.
Thanks.

Gnair,
I don’t believe you have either responded to my request or whether the gist of my message has even registered! Since we are in a serious & professional forum and need to rule out sciolists with perhaps ulterior motives from hijacking the thread, I’ll repeat my earlier reply:
“So go on, why don't you tell us what you think of the ALH.
And on that count may I also request for an impartial insight into the flight safety stats of contemporary helicopter types during their development and in-service usage (military & civil).”
So if we need to continue this discussion any further, please address my request in full.
And on that count may I point out sir, that its SARANG and not 'Tarang' or whatever you had typed. If in doubt, we can always take the trouble to 'Google', I suppose!!


For Hari Nair:
Gnair: With all due respect Sir, yes I meant Sarang and not Tarang. That was shoddy typing.

Since we are in a serious & professional forum and need to rule out sciolists with perhaps ulterior motives from hijacking the thread…………

Gnair: I’ve been associated with this forum for about ten years now, one way or the other and hijacking a thread isn’t a part of my track record. I usually recommend folks interested in various subjects of interest to visit this forum. Personally I use BR, as a reference source.

need to rule out sciolists…..

Gnair: That is a big word sir. The criteria I used, to ask you this: “ What exactly happened, and what may have been the cause during the Sarang practice session of the last Aero- India that resulted in a fatality? And were there similarities in flight profile to the Ecuador incident?”
….Was because it was established that you were the subject matter expert in the loop, and I was the layperson on the outside. It was for no other intention or motive.
If there were sensitivities in the questioning, then a polite decline would have been the norm.
Re-questioning a genuine, legitimate question is usually a mark of defensiveness. There is no reason for that. This is friendly territory. You, I and everybody else are on the same side and no one is taking pot shots at anybody.

…..and coming to your counter-question, irrespective of the relevance or lack there off to what I asked you:

“So go on, why don't you tell us what you think of the ALH.
And on that count may I also request for an impartial insight into the flight safety stats of contemporary helicopter types during their development and in-service usage (military & civil).”

Gnair: I think the ALH is a great helicopter, without a doubt what so ever, and have followed it from the drawing-board days in collaboration with MBB. First flight in the early 90’s with the LHTEC 800, then came the embargo/sanctions and switch to
TM-333, then the switch to digital avionics, incorporation of vibration reduction systems, weaponization and now with the Shakti. Besides it’s got good lineage from the BO-105 and the BK-117, two great MBB/Kawasaki products. So the design is fundamentally strong. That’s my brief laypersons take on it.

…….may I also request for an impartial insight into the flight safety stats of contemporary helicopter types during their development and in-service usage .”
Gnair: I am not associated with Bell, Augusta or Euro Copter and as you can understand, I will not be in possession of up to date data that is relevant to your question. I am sure you knew that, before you asked me the question!
Your request is bordering on proprietary data. I may be able to look up the annual Incident Reports for rotary craft from Flight International or AW&ST at best.

Let me conclude, that the answers to my questions will not be forthcoming from you. Therefore ‘I choose to withdraw my question to you Sir’ .This discussion could have been taken in better light, but then I guess not. One cannot be trained in emotional intelligence. It usually comes with layers of life experience.

Rahul M
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Re: LCH and other Helicopters Discussion Thread

Postby Rahul M » 07 Sep 2010 05:55

please use the quote function, it's impossible to understand who is saying what from your post.

rad
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Re: LCH and other Helicopters Discussion Thread

Postby rad » 07 Sep 2010 11:27

Dear Hari Nair

Please explain what is control saturation , how and in what mode of flight can it occur and what we should do to avoid

getting into that situation . I have 6 hrs on Robinson R-22 but that that was nearly 20 years back , cheers

rad

biswas
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Re: LCH and other Helicopters Discussion Thread

Postby biswas » 07 Sep 2010 17:35

Rahul M wrote:please use the quote function, it's impossible to understand who is saying what from your post.


This, is it really so hard to quote properly?

babbupandey
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Re: LCH and other Helicopters Discussion Thread

Postby babbupandey » 07 Sep 2010 17:39

biswas wrote:
Rahul M wrote:please use the quote function, it's impossible to understand who is saying what from your post.

This, is it really so hard to quote properly?


I request you not to make fun of GNair, he has presented his valid points (albeit without proper formatting). RahulM is the moderator - he did his job, that should have been end of discussion. Please let us remain focussed on LCH.

gnair
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Re: LCH and other Helicopters Discussion Thread

Postby gnair » 07 Sep 2010 20:32

Rahul M wrote:please use the quote function, it's impossible to understand who is saying what from your post.


Rahul, message acknowledged and sorry. My wifi/screen kept freezing on me.
Regards,


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