LCH and other Helicopters Discussion Thread

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 12 Sep 2010 12:25

^^^Shiv garu, the Mi-17 flying around HAL Airport has been a regular phenomenon (can't speak for last couple of months). But used to see it from my office quite regularly, like the AN-32 sorties.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 12 Sep 2010 13:07

rohitvats wrote:^^^Shiv garu, the Mi-17 flying around HAL Airport has been a regular phenomenon (can't speak for last couple of months). But used to see it from my office quite regularly, like the AN-32 sorties.

In fact I have not seen it much recently - although I used to see it regularly. But last week it was roving around serving as eye candy for mil aviation freaks like me. The white Helo academy Chetak was my golf mascot - and would always be overhead while I made my standard bad shots. Haven't seen the LCH around recently though - except for once far away.

vina · Post by **vina** » 12 Sep 2010 22:58

Hari Nairji,

We have the Sarang display team with the Dhruv which puts up some spectacular routines (I saw the routine in the last Aero India, it was fantastic). The question I have is , Are the Dhruvs capable of doing a loop (there are videos of heavier helicopters with everyday workman roles doing it), not that it probably matters for the Dhruv, maybe for ALH, that kind of fixed wing like maneuverability might be needed.

babbupandey · Post by **babbupandey** » 13 Sep 2010 03:14

chetak wrote:http://www.economist.com/node/16990748

Faster helicopters
More rotors, more speed
A new type of helicopter breaks speed records

This month's IEEE spectrum too has lot of coverage on this: http://spectrum.ieee.org/aerospace/avia ... r-on-earth

putnanja · Post by **putnanja** » 13 Sep 2010 06:54

'Indian' Dhruv Advanced Light Helicopter gets Italian makeover

...But now it emerges that the Dhruv is struggling with a serious problem. The army, which was to be supplied 20 Dhruvs last year, refused to accept any until HAL fixed a problem that was restricting the Dhruv’s cruising speed to 250 kilometers per hour, significantly short of the 270 kmph that HAL specifications promise. Unable to find a cure, HAL has brought in a consultant: Italian aerospace propulsion major, Avio.

India’s military sets high store by the Dhruv’s engine power; the helicopter must operate from tiny landing grounds at 6,500 meters (about 21,000 feet), which is the altitude of Sonam Post, India’s highest helipad on the Siachen Glacier. But even after paying French engine-maker, Turbomeca, Rs 1,000 crore to design the Shakti engine —- a superb performer at high altitudes —- the Dhruv’s Integrated Dynamic System, or IDS, which transfers power from the Shakti engines to the helicopter rotors, is not performing optimally. That, say HAL engineers, has reduced speed, high-altitude capability, and the life of the IDS.

The Italian consultants will now scrutinise the Dhruv’s IDS to diagnose the problem. Avio will start by building a single HAL-designed IDS in Avio’s facilities in Italy, using their own materials and tools. They will then test-run this for 400-500 hours; if it works perfectly, it would be evident that the flaw lies in HAL’s manufacturing, rather than the IDS design. On the other hand, if the Avio-built IDS performs poorly during the test run, there is clearly a design problem. Avio will then redesign the IDS.

...

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 13 Sep 2010 08:27

Avio is also involved in some way into eurofighter program...they do the afterburner section of ej200.

krisna · Post by **krisna** » 13 Sep 2010 16:30

India to buy 139 military helicopters from Russia

The two countries had already signed a deal in 2008 for the delivery of 80 Mil Mi-17 helicopters, which can be used in both transport and combat roles. The Indian government has however ordered a further 59 aircraft.

a total value of up to 1.5 billion euros (1.9 billion dollars),

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 13 Sep 2010 18:38

we have so few its not remotely funny. the 1st air cavalry div of us army in *vietnam era* deployed with 400+ helis alone. 1st airborne div went to iraq again with 400+.

Gaur · Post by **Gaur** » 13 Sep 2010 23:39

^^
Well, it gets really tiring to see every defence deal criticized just for the sake of it. Have you even bothered to compare the size and weight of Mi-17 to that of Dhruv? How many passengers can both of them carry? Is there a weaponized Dhruv available at present?
If you would have even bothered to give a cursory glance at the specs of both helicopters, you would have known that both of them are of different class with different roles.

vishnu.nv · Post by **vishnu.nv** » 14 Sep 2010 11:37

Just trying to summarize the new choppers being procured for the services. Gurus correct if i am wrong.
139 - MI-17's
159 -ALH's
25 - Attack choppers
25 - Heavy Lift
180 - Light helicopters
175 - LCH
NAvy choppers -- ??
LOH -- ??

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 14 Sep 2010 13:46

The extra MI-17Vs appear to be the knee-jerk reaction to the Dragon's moves across the Himalayas.From various accounts,we put into storage two decades ago Indira's Op.Falcon,to build a huge infrastructure on the northern Himalayan borders with China .WE have suddenly woken upto the fact that while we slept,China just kept "rolling along" and like a magicians hat produced out of it the Tibet railway,the road link through Tibet to POK and a host of air and land bases for the PLA and PLAAF,where Chinese Flankers operate out of,as well as several tactical missile batteries,of which the Chinese have thousands of missiles,under command of local commanders requiring no nod from Beijing to launch them unlike India's supposed brakes on the 333rd missile regiment.

These reports also say that the BRO are severely hampered from completing their tasks because heavy eqpt. needed for teh job cannot be driven up the mountains and have to be air dropped by heavy lift helos of which we have but a few MI-26s,used for special missions.One presumes that the MI-17s will be able to lift the light artillery also required for the troops,providing the much needed helo logistic support.The speed with which these decisions are being made indicate that the GOI/MOD are truly worried about the situ perhaps due to info about Chinese intentions which may have come from diverse intel sources.

sum · Post by **sum** » 14 Sep 2010 21:04

One presumes that the MI-17s will be able to lift the light artillery also required for the troops,providing the much needed helo logistic support.The speed with which these decisions are being made indicate that the GOI/MOD are truly worried about the situ perhaps due to info about Chinese intentions which may have come from diverse intel sources.

The Week article states that BRO is borrowing Pawan Hans choppers for its job..thats how stretched IAF is in the medium lift side..

Bala Vignesh · Post by **Bala Vignesh** » 14 Sep 2010 23:51

I personally feel its because IAF is considered the sole operator of such medium heli's... If the army, BSF or any force that operates in the region in numbers, apart from IAF, can get about 25 medium heli's(~2.5 squadrons), they could probably handle things on their end... The IAF can pitch in where they can make themselves more usefull... In assisting the infrastructure development projects, etc...
Just my 2 cents...

Kartik · Post by **Kartik** » 15 Sep 2010 05:03

viktor wrote: Sorry to interrupt ongoing discussion, but I had this question in mind and feel that some guru will be able to answer it.

From what I understand, Denel has shutdown AH-2 Rooivalk project after supplying South African AF with just 12 birds. Denel has stopped the funding but they would still have the tech. Why can't we take their inputs for LCH project? Moreover we can rope in Mokopa for the work they have done on ZT-6 ATGM. I know Rooivalk is a heavier helo that LCH but it would save us lot of trouble and build relationship between our industries. I understand that Denel is blacklisted, but there are always loopholes in govt. policy.

Pardon me, but what exactly do we need to learn from Denel (Atlas Aviation) in the field of gunships ? They used a Turbomeca engine, they used the basic Puma airframe and modified it to that of the Rooivalk, they used the Puma's gearbox, transmission and blades, so what exactly is it that they can give inputs on that HAL or a DRDO lab doesn't already know ?

The Rooivalk itself was a bad choice mainly because it was just too large and complex..it ended up being an Apache class gunship, but obviously South Africa couldn't match the US in terms of political backing for sales and added to that was Denel's poor financial state at that time. It was costly, did not meet timelines or budget, and only 12 were produced, which are pretty much outdated in terms of on-board avionics, computers and so on. The only real chance that Denel had of the Rooivalk ever becoming a modern gunship with some modicum of success was if it won the Turkish attack helicopter contest, but with Agusta winning that with the T129 Mangusta version, those hopes faded too.

BTW, Mokopa is the name of the ZT-6, not a company. the ZT-6 Mokopa was itself developed by Denel. There is already a HELINA version of the Nag being developed in India..Gp Cpt Hari Nair may be able to throw more light on its development and how many the LCH will carry.

sankum · Post by **sankum** » 15 Sep 2010 14:29

vishnu.nv wrote
Just trying to summarize the new choppers being procured for the services. Gurus correct if i am wrong.
139 - MI-17's
159 -ALH's
25 - Attack choppers
25 - Heavy Lift
180 - Light helicopters
175 - LCH
NAvy choppers -- ??
LOH -- ??

Indian army by early 20's will have

ALH - 40 present fleet +105 =145( 60 will be WSI version)
LCH - 114
LUH - 259

Total=518 helos

IAF plan

Mi17 - 139
ALH - 22 Deliverred+ 54 =76( 16 will be WSI version )
LCH - 65
LUH - 125
Attack helo - 22
Heavy lift - 15

IN plan

LUH -56
ASW Helo - 16 + 44 options? (RFI)
AEW helo - 9 Ka31 present fleet + 5 Ka31 =14
Ka 28- 6

Hari Nair · Post by **Hari Nair** » 15 Sep 2010 20:14

vina wrote:Hari Nairji,

We have the Sarang display team with the Dhruv which puts up some spectacular routines (I saw the routine in the last Aero India, it was fantastic). The question I have is , Are the Dhruvs capable of doing a loop (there are videos of heavier helicopters with everyday workman roles doing it), not that it probably matters for the Dhruv, maybe for ALH, that kind of fixed wing like maneuverability might be needed.

Yes the ALH is capable of doing a loop - check out my earlier posts regarding types of rotors & manoeuvrability.

koti · Post by **koti** » 15 Sep 2010 20:38

sankum wrote:
vishnu.nv wrote
Just trying to summarize the new choppers being procured for the services. Gurus correct if i am wrong.
139 - MI-17's
159 -ALH's
25 - Attack choppers
25 - Heavy Lift
180 - Light helicopters
175 - LCH
NAvy choppers -- ??
LOH -- ??
Indian army by early 20's will have

ALH - 40 present fleet +105 =145( 60 will be WSI version)
LCH - 114
LUH - 259

Total=518 helos

IAF plan

Mi17 - 139
ALH - 22 Deliverred+ 54 =76( 16 will be WSI version )
LCH - 65
LUH - 125
Attack helo - 22
Heavy lift - 15

IN plan

LUH -56
ASW Helo - 16 + 44 options? (RFI)
AEW helo - 9 Ka31 present fleet + 5 Ka31 =14
Ka 28- 6

That will be the strength of the new Mi-17V5..
What about the already existing Mi-17's??
LOH and LUH may end up being same helo type with different configuration.

sankum · Post by **sankum** » 15 Sep 2010 21:37

Present mi17s strength may be around 80nos.(6sq)

40 nos were delivered around 2000 while 40 nos remaining from around 46 nos ordered in 1988 which will be due for retirement by 2018 (service life 30 years).

As far as 56 nos.naval LUH, it will be double engined of 3T class for which RFI is out.

While army and air force LUH of 259+125=384 is split between 197 imported for which trail is on and 187 HAL LUH of 3T class.

The split up is

IA - 133 nos. LUH import + 126 nos. HAL LUH =259

IAF - 64 nos. LUH import + 61 nos. HAL LUH =125

vic · Post by **vic** » 15 Sep 2010 22:23

I thought we had around 200-250 Mi-8/17 apart from 80+59 already ordered

Anantz · Post by **Anantz** » 15 Sep 2010 22:45

Ok for the sake of convenience I collected the data on the internet and as per SIPRI this is the total Mi-8/17 series helicopters that we have procured so far.

Mi-8 – 1971-1972: 20
Mi-8 – 1979-1982: 80

Mi-17 – 1984-1989: 53
Mi-17 – 2000-2001: 40

As per ‘Warbirds of India’ the total known helicopter crashed for the types are as follows.

Mi-8: 11
Mi-17: 12

So assuming we have withdrawn from use the oldest Mi-8s procured in 1972, we have the following number of Medium lift Mi-8/17 series helicopters as of today.

Mi-8: 80-11 = 69
Mi-17: 93-12 = 81

Total no of Mi-17s as of 2010: 150

Considering the service life of the Mi-8 series helicopters, the 2008 deal for 80 Mi-17 V helicopters could be to replace the oldest Mi-8s, and the latest batch of 59 Mi-17 V might replace the oldest Mi-17 series progressively from 2014 onwards. So without taking attrition; by 2020 we should have the following number of Medium lift helos.

Mi-17 IV – 40
Mi-17 V – 80
Mi-17 V – 59

Total no of Mi-17s as of 2020: 179

Hope it helps..
Cheers,
Anant

sankum · Post by **sankum** » 16 Sep 2010 05:53

By 2020 delivery of HAL 13T class MLH would have begun if all goes well according to plan.

The projected requirement is 390 nos. for IAF/ IN.

Alpesh · Post by **Alpesh** » 17 Sep 2010 21:21

The LCH looks cool but that glass canopy looks a bit overdone...
It should be something more conventional like this:
http://img828.imageshack.us/img828/1610 ... light2.jpg
Should reduce the chance of taking a hit on the canopy and also even bring a very minor reduction in weight.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 18 Sep 2010 09:16

Alpesh wrote:The LCH looks cool but that glass canopy looks a bit overdone...
It should be something more conventional like this:
http://img828.imageshack.us/img828/1610 ... light2.jpg
Should reduce the chance of taking a hit on the canopy and also even bring a very minor reduction in weight.

See the following post on page 22 of this thread by Hari Nair - one of the test pilots of the LCH
http://forums.bharat-rakshak.com/viewto ... 35#p926835

vic · Post by **vic** » 18 Sep 2010 09:37

sankum wrote:By 2020 delivery of HAL 13T class MLH would have begun if all goes well according to plan.

The projected requirement is 390 nos. for IAF/ IN.

Adding Army and Civilian requirements, this figure can go upto 600-1000. I hope HAL will involve ancilliary industries from the word go, to develop an "indigenous" helo with atleast 50% Indian content rather producing a delayed chopper composed of foreign components assembled badly and slowly. This new HAL mantra that we do not need to produce components is dishonest/disingenious argument. I also hope HAL negotiates good contracts for imported engines etc for indigenous manufacture rather than leaving all important components to be imported for ever and ever and ever.

My gratituous advice:-

Develop a 3000hp version of RTM engine in collaboration of RR & MTU
Develop MLH as a version of NH90
Branch of all other sub-systems to pvt sector to be indigenised in colloboration with nominated foreign vendors

Kanson · Post by **Kanson** » 18 Sep 2010 11:24

Generally, helis that do the scout role have wider field of view and therefore have larger canopy. Attack helis that try to do the attack role as well scout role tends to find a middle ground. Comanche is designed to do the scout for Apache & can also carries out attack.

If LCH mainly caters for the attack role it will be designed accordingly.

Hari Nair · Post by **Hari Nair** » 28 Sep 2010 21:20

Here is a fairly nice picture of the LCH clicked on its approach to the helipad-

Gaur · Post by **Gaur** » 28 Sep 2010 21:26

Thanks a lot for the picture. It is very unique as compared to all the other pictures we have had the pleasure of seeing.

SriSri · Post by **SriSri** » 28 Sep 2010 21:31

Great pic. Do you have more?

Hari Nair · Post by **Hari Nair** » 28 Sep 2010 21:42

Well, a higher res picture here - also showing the business end of the LCH -
(Mods - I hope the size is not excessive - if so, pl delete)

Please click on thumbnail to see high-res image.
Rahul.

suryag · Post by **suryag** » 28 Sep 2010 21:48

^^^ You lucky pilots, if you send that poster to some college fest the pilots will get a lot of f-fanmail

Anyways

wonderful picture Hari Nair Garu

Gaur · Post by **Gaur** » 28 Sep 2010 22:04

Thanks very much Nair Sir.
I think this is the first and only picture of LCH in the public domain in which the LCH carries an ATGM (albeit a dummy). Is this supposed to be a mock up of HELINA?

PS:
Hari Nair Sir,
We jingos are always happy to drool over new LCH pics. So, please feel free to post any pic of LCH that you may get your hands on (even if you do not deem the pic to be worthy of posting). The gratitude from us jingos would be infinite (if not already so).

Vivek K · Post by **Vivek K** » 28 Sep 2010 22:30

Nair Sir - From the pics it can be seen that the LCH has large shock absorbers tied to the gear. Is this normal in helos of this kind? Does it pose problems in action?

Willy · Post by **Willy** » 28 Sep 2010 23:09

viktor wrote:Sorry to interrupt ongoing discussion, but I had this question in mind and feel that some guru will be able to answer it.

From what I understand, Denel has shutdown AH-2 Rooivalk project after supplying South African AF with just 12 birds. Denel has stopped the funding but they would still have the tech. Why can't we take their inputs for LCH project? Moreover we can rope in Mokopa for the work they have done on ZT-6 ATGM. I know Rooivalk is a heavier helo that LCH but it would save us lot of trouble and build relationship between our industries. I understand that Denel is blacklisted, but there are always loopholes in govt. policy.

This blacklisting crap has to stop. Comissions should be legalised. Its the Indian armed forces that are suffering due to this while the Babus and the Politicos fill their pockets oneway or the other.

Bala Vignesh · Post by **Bala Vignesh** » 29 Sep 2010 11:03

Hari sir,
if you don't mind me asking, where are you sitting in the chopper???

vina · Post by **vina** » 29 Sep 2010 12:18

Hari Nairji. One question. Do the stub wings in the LCH generate any significant lift at all? Thanks

Pratik_S · Post by **Pratik_S** » 29 Sep 2010 13:24

Thank you for the wonderful image, I can see the co-pilot sitting in the back that means the co-pilot has a really good view of the front. Many of us believed otherwise.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 29 Sep 2010 14:16

Hari Nair wrote: Please click on thumbnail to see high-res image.

I Like it. That gun is pointed exactly at the camera.

brrrrrp aaaargh! Or no aargh maybe.

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 29 Sep 2010 15:06

sankum wrote:By 2020 delivery of HAL 13T class MLH would have begun if all goes well according to plan.

The projected requirement is 390 nos. for IAF/ IN.

Unable to understand your post, do we have a MLH programe??

Or, is this a call for establishing this programme??

sankum · Post by **sankum** » 29 Sep 2010 16:52

EXCLUSIVE: The Proposed Indian Multirole Helicopter (IMRH) Detailed

MLH was to be on by 2015 but got delayed and now it is named IMRH.

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 29 Sep 2010 17:08

OK...

Will go through the link at home

Added later, its not claer if this call for a JV (Screw driver tech) or a new design.

Thanks