LCH and other Helicopters Discussion Thread

Kartik · Post by **Kartik** » 07 Nov 2014 10:48

Singha wrote:to me the cockpit roofline has some room for coming tighter and lower and making it less roomy than at present.
the apache and most other gunships keeps the shoulder and headroom quite compact
http://madworldnews.com/wp-content/uplo ... Apache.jpg

our munna has that extra glass section in the middle and is very roomy cockpit which kinds of reminds me of the ov10 bronco
http://www.ov-10bronco.net/Pix/USAF/usa ... _13554.jpg

less glass to hit is always better imo..less attack surface. also the saved weight in extra glass can go into thicker armour and thicker glass.

yes, it seems to have the roomiest cockpit of all dedicated gunships. the least amount of glass possible, while maintaining good visibility on all sides would have been the ideal solution, with armour covering the remaining surface area.

JTull · Post by **JTull** » 07 Nov 2014 20:22

LCH is one of the smallest, so the cockpit looks much bigger as compared to others. Only AW129 comes closest in size and that has much more differential in height between the tandem seats giving the impression of two small cockpits instead of one big one. Pilot visibility in LCH must be as good as an Apache heli and a huge improvement over a Mi-24 or Mi-28.

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 07 Nov 2014 21:48

JTull wrote:The winglet (for antenna or pitot) just below and front of front pilot's window also seems to be gone.

What is the source of this picture. Would love to see some more pictures of TD-3

They were bound to go. They were thrust out for better calibration during testing.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 07 Nov 2014 21:53

Wondering:

Would a Trophy like countermeasure be possible for a Helo.

Shreeman · Post by **Shreeman** » 08 Nov 2014 10:54

Viv S · Post by **Viv S** » 08 Nov 2014 16:01

^ Caption please. Mockup or prototype?

rakall · Post by **rakall** » 08 Nov 2014 17:20

Viv S wrote:^ Caption please. Mockup or prototype?

IMRH - definitely Mockup..

Possibly for AeroIndia coming up in Feb

Thakur_B · Post by **Thakur_B** » 08 Nov 2014 17:23

rakall wrote:
Viv S wrote:^ Caption please. Mockup or prototype?
IMRH - definitely Mockup..

Possibly for AeroIndia coming up in Feb

LUH.

10 characters.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 08 Nov 2014 19:17

LUH mockup has existed for a long time.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 08 Nov 2014 19:21

some kind of inspiration for the roomy sunroom type LCH cockpit seems to have come from this mighty and ancient beast.
in a sense all that we are today, the good and bad is a function of bloodlines and evolutionary & social chances going back tens of generations. we all stand even the mightiest among us on the shoulders of giants.

in that sense the LCH could not have chosen a better father. this extinct but purest blooded stallion that once roamed the empty prairies of north america. chetak, bucephalus,.....it has been called many names in history.

the ancients had prophesied it would be reborn again to bring light into this world, and it has.

Shreeman · Post by **Shreeman** » 08 Nov 2014 21:18

A. LUH TD will show up in AI 2015.
B. A LUH GTV and TD are know to exist.
C. Mockup has been painted, no reason to strip to primer unless picture is old.
D. A new HAL website (equally useless) is in the works.

That is all.

Kartik · Post by **Kartik** » 10 Nov 2014 13:00

JTull wrote:LCH is one of the smallest, so the cockpit looks much bigger as compared to others. Only AW129 comes closest in size and that has much more differential in height between the tandem seats giving the impression of two small cockpits instead of one big one. Pilot visibility in LCH must be as good as an Apache heli and a huge improvement over a Mi-24 or Mi-28.

because the A129/T129 Mangusta/ATAK feature lower internal cockpit volume. The LCH has one large roomy cockpit with the canopy covering it entirely rather than the stepped canopy as seen on the A129, Apache, Tiger, Mi-28..the LCH's cockpit view will be even better than that of the Apache, but the drawback is that there is a larger area that is unprotected from small arms fire.

kmkraoind · Post by **kmkraoind** » 12 Nov 2014 12:06

Anantha Krishnan M ‏@writetake

#BreakingNews #HAL warms up for #LCH TD3 first flight. Weather-permitting, 2.30 pm fixed for take-off. @OneIndia

Things seems to be moving pretty fast under new govt.

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 12 Nov 2014 12:07

Am looking forward to such a flight as it brings the machine so close to final specifications.

shaun · Post by **shaun** » 12 Nov 2014 12:26

what is that opening for ??

krishnan · Post by **krishnan** » 12 Nov 2014 12:28

thats the engine

shaun · Post by **shaun** » 12 Nov 2014 12:49

i said why is that opening for

krishnan · Post by **krishnan** » 12 Nov 2014 12:53

maybe for airflow

shaun · Post by **shaun** » 12 Nov 2014 12:56

well it is not there with TD1 and 2 , if it is for airflow then can we assume it have got a more powerful engine or it is because for a given manoeuvre it needs extra airflow ??

PS:- Dont laugh at me

JTull · Post by **JTull** » 12 Nov 2014 13:58

Tail landing gear has a covering now, but the one on the main gun is missing. Not too relevant as we're just gearing towards the first flight. We'll see all bells and whistles at AI-2015.

Definite improvement on the engine exhaust!

kmkraoind · Post by **kmkraoind** » 12 Nov 2014 14:21

Anantha Krishnan M @writetake

#LCH TD3 readies for first flight amidst slight drizzle. To be piloted by Wg Cdr Unni Pillai (Retd). #BreakingNews

Added later:

Anantha Krishnan M @writetake now10 seconds ago

#BreakingNews LCH TD3 all set for first flight. Pilots check in.

Today, it will be the hot news, hope today HNair gives a visit to this site.

kmkraoind · Post by **kmkraoind** » 12 Nov 2014 15:52

Anantha Krishnan M @writetake

#LCH TD3 Team HAL after LCH's successful first flight. The flight lasted for 20 minutes. Report soon on @OneIndia

member_26535 · Post by **member_26535** » 12 Nov 2014 17:16

Gurus.. Will there be LSPs for this or they are expected to get IOC /FOC with the TDs ? What is the process we followed for Dhruv?

Kartik · Post by **Kartik** » 12 Nov 2014 17:46

Need more pics! Am really glad to see the TD-3 fly. And a proper Army camo would look good now

chackojoseph · Post by **chackojoseph** » 12 Nov 2014 19:18

HAL Light Combat Helicopter LCH TD3 makes first flight

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 12 Nov 2014 19:43

AoA!!!

Shaun wrote:what is that opening for ??

It is not engine intakes. I think it is for IR suppression. the entire cowling behind it is new in TD3. H Nair sahab can confirm.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 12 Nov 2014 20:36

imo that takes in cold air which is mixed with host exhaust going out through the copper pipe at the back. the exhaust is turned up to be hit by the rotor downwash and dissipate quickly.
it may also air cool the parts in the engine bay.

Kartik · Post by **Kartik** » 12 Nov 2014 20:43

Yes I think Singha's explanation makes sense

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 12 Nov 2014 20:46

Kartik wrote:Need more pics! Am really glad to see the TD-3 fly. And a proper Army camo would look good now

I think the current color would be good camo in the Yellow sea no?

shaun · Post by **shaun** » 12 Nov 2014 20:58

Singha wrote:imo that takes in cold air which is mixed with host exhaust going out through the copper pipe at the back. the exhaust is turned up to be hit by the rotor downwash and dissipate quickly.
it may also air cool the parts in the engine bay.

That make more sense , airflow could have been increased by increasing the dia of the inlet . How much weight reduction have they achieved with TD 3 ??

rakall · Post by **rakall** » 12 Nov 2014 23:17

Apart from changes like weight reduction, new systems, (probable) improved layout of LRU's inside for better space management & Center of gravity management which cannot be seen from pictures there is a highly significant change that improves performance of TD3 over TD1 & TD2 a lot...

- the weapons pylon is now more aerodynamically shaped.. like a lifting wing.. It is not a simple drag reduction profile used in TD2.. seems more like an airfoil profile designed increase lift

- the weapons pylon is also attached higher than previous locations.. aimed at achieving either more stability Or drag reduction

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 12 Nov 2014 23:39

I see no difference in the stub wing between TD2 and TD3 except the wing body blending which is much better on TD3.

putnanja · Post by **putnanja** » 13 Nov 2014 00:29

From Tarmak007's twitter feed

Anantha Krishnan M @writetake · 21m 21 minutes ago

#LCH #TD3 #FACTFILE @OneIndia Designers have shortened the length of the chopper to improve the vibration characteristics. Wg Cdr Unni

Anantha Krishnan M @writetake · 22m 22 minutes ago

#LCH #TD3 #FACTFILE @OneIndia LCH has a lifting wing now making it on par with the Mi-25 and Mi-35: HAL CTP Wg Cdr Unni Pillai (Retd)

Anantha Krishnan M @writetake · 23m 23 minutes ago

#LCH #TD3 #FACTFILE @OneIndia We are hoping to have the first flight of TD-4 in early next year, says HAL ED (Company Secy) Ashok Tandon.

Anantha Krishnan M @writetake · 24m 24 minutes ago

#LCH #TD3 #FACTFILE @OneIndia We have ensured that LCH TD-3 and TD-4 will have more ‘Made in India’ systems: HAL Chairman Tyagi.

Anantha Krishnan M @writetake · 25m 25 minutes ago

#LCH #TD3 #FACTFILE @OneIndia The Indian Army has given a Letter of Intent for 114 LCHs and the IAF for 65 choppers.

Anantha Krishnan M @writetake · 26m 26 minutes ago

#LCH #TD3 #FACTFILE @Oneindia We did not want to wait for customer funding and approvals -- a paradigm shift in HAL's thought process. Tyagi

Anantha Krishnan M @writetake · 27m 27 minutes ago

#LCH #TD3 #FACTFILE @Oneindia Confident that Initial Operational Clearance will now be achieved in September 2015: HAL Chairman R K Tyagi.

Anantha Krishnan M @writetake · 28m 28 minutes ago

#LCH #TD3 #FACTFILE The first LCH should join the Services by March 2016.

Anantha Krishnan M @writetake · 35m 35 minutes ago

#LCH #TD3 #FACTFILE HAL sets aside Rs 126 crore for LCH TD-4, which is expected to fly soon. Again funded by the Company.

Anantha Krishnan M @writetake · 36m 36 minutes ago

#LCH #TD3 #FACTFILE TD-3 project is being funded (Rs 80 crore) completely by the HAL and not Army, IAF. Reason: To expedite the induction.

Anantha Krishnan M @writetake · 53m 53 minutes ago

#Rudra video. A very small clip. Not flying. https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=66 ... =2&theater …

Anantha Krishnan M @writetake · 1h 1 hour ago

#QUOTEOFTHEDAY You have to be thoughtless when you take a mean machine on its first flight: HAL CTP(RW) Wg Cdr Unni Pillai (Retd)

And his report with lots of details...

RotorPlus: HAL-funded LCH TD-3 undergoes first flight successfully

..
Piloted by Wg Cdr Unni Pillai (Retd), HAL's Chief Test Pilot (CTP), Rotary Wing (RW) and ably assisted by Gp Capt Hari Nair (Retd), Deputy CTP (RW), the 20-minute maiden outing of LCH TD-3 was a flawless affair
...
"Every test point was done exactly with nothing unusual noticed during the flight. We are confident that the Initial Operational Clearance (IOC) will now be achieved in September 2015, three months ahead of the deadline," HAL Chairman R K Tyagi told OneIndia.
...
...
We have ensured that LCH TD-3 and TD-4 will have more ‘Made in India' systems and components including Integrated Avionics and Display System and Automatic Flight Control System. Not a single snag was reported during today's flight," Tyagi said.
...
...
Explaining the new features of LCH TD-3, Unni said that the chopper has a lifting wing now making it on par with the Mi-25 and Mi-35. In addition, the HAL designers have shortened the length of the chopper to improve the vibration characteristics.

The wings are now sitting slightly on a higher attachment point, compared to TD-1 and TD-2. "The cockpit was glassier earlier and now we have fixed armour plating on the sides, reducing the glass factor. Even the height of the cockpit has been reduced. The LCH TD-3 will be soon be integrated with weapons and it will have a busy schedule ahead carrying out trials. We have improved on many features, including the gear boxes of LCH TD-3," Unni added.

...
...
Unni said that LCH, once operational, can be a destructive platform at high altitudes. "This will be the chopper to watch out for in Siachen Glacier and some of the other border areas above 18,000 feet. The TD-1 and TD-2 together have completed around 390 flights so far, logging 280 hours. The rate of flying was less because we were ensuring that all changes on LCH were of the final configuration. The basic testing of the LCH has been completed. Only systems need to be tested on different modes now," Unni added.
...

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 13 Nov 2014 00:45

rakall wrote:Apart from changes like weight reduction, new systems, (probable) improved layout of LRU's inside for better space management & Center of gravity management which cannot be seen from pictures there is a highly significant change that improves performance of TD3 over TD1 & TD2 a lot...

- the weapons pylon is now more aerodynamically shaped.. like a lifting wing.. It is not a simple drag reduction profile used in TD2.. seems more like an airfoil profile designed increase lift

- the weapons pylon is also attached higher than previous locations.. aimed at achieving either more stability Or drag reduction

indranilroy wrote:I see no difference in the stub wing between TD2 and TD3 except the wing body blending which is much better on TD3.

putnanja wrote: RotorPlus: HAL-funded LCH TD-3 undergoes first flight successfully

Explaining the new features of LCH TD-3, Unni said that the chopper has a lifting wing now making it on par with the Mi-25 and Mi-35. In addition, the HAL designers have shortened the length of the chopper to improve the vibration characteristics.

The wings are now sitting slightly on a higher attachment point, compared to TD-1 and TD-2.
...

Ah! I was proved wrong, again

.

But, I remember having this talk with Hari Nair sahab about the TD2 stub wing. Dr. Sampath in AI-13 had said that the stub wings were symmetric i.e. no lift, least drag. But Hari Nair sahab had said that the stub wings on TD2 were created lift

.

indranilroy wrote:Hari sir ...
...
At the aero india seminar, it was told that the armament boom will not generate any lift. Has this been done to lower induced drag or to avoid vortice shedding by a lifting armament boom and it's adverse effects on the tail plane? Or both?
...

Hari Nair wrote: ...
Re - the LCH -the new wings & fairings are expected to be interfaced within a couple of months. The overall weight reduction is what Dr Sampat had specified in his presentation. The wings will be lifting surfaces. The related questions on induced drag, vortex shedding & effects on tailplane - well that's a couple of hours of discussion on aerodynamics!

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 13 Nov 2014 01:00

So, between 39 Apache, 114 LCH and 60 WSI-Dhruv, Army Aviation will have 213 attack helicopters! And I think this is just the beginning as far as LCH+Rudra combo is considered.

Now, next step should be evolve the LCH design into Eurocopter Tiger with various variants for plains, so that this 'heavy' combat helicopter requirement aspect is settled for once and all.

Good thing about Dhruv+LCH+Rudra is that another important aspect of requirement by Services and Para-Military organizations is closed to outside vendors. The LUH/RSH and Mi-17 class remain out of reach. So far. Considering how good a design Mi-17 is and how widely we use it and the fact that numbers in our service is only going to grow further, it should go the Mig-21+HAL way. We should have full production capability in India along with cooperation with Russians to develop next generation.

JTull · Post by **JTull** » 13 Nov 2014 02:50

I'd like to see that lifting wing on Rudra as well.

And, the LCH TD-3 would look a killer in that matt black colour we've seen on Rudra before. https://t.co/lSw53G0a6n Quite different to the glossy finish on TD-1.

JTull · Post by **JTull** » 13 Nov 2014 03:01

A LoI of 115 LCH from Army and 65 from IAF has motivated HAL to finance and expedite TD-3 and TD-4 to attain IOC as quickly as possible.

Perhaps similar 'intent' from IAF could 'motivate' HAL on the LCA-Tejas front as well.

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 13 Nov 2014 03:37

More observations on the IR suppression.

The exhaust pipe has been extended rearwards. This will allow the exhaust to mix with the faster and more turbulent part of the prop-wash emanating from the outer part of the rotor. This will lead to a faster/better dissipation of the exhaust into the surrounding air. Would love to see the equivalent picture of TD3 corresponding to this picture of TD2.

srai · Post by **srai** » 13 Nov 2014 05:34

rohitvats wrote:So, between 39 Apache, 114 LCH and 60 WSI-Dhruv, Army Aviation will have 213 attack helicopters! And I think this is just the beginning as far as LCH+Rudra combo is considered.

Now, next step should be evolve the LCH design into Eurocopter Tiger with various variants for plains, so that this 'heavy' combat helicopter requirement aspect is settled for once and all.

Good thing about Dhruv+LCH+Rudra is that another important aspect of requirement by Services and Para-Military organizations is closed to outside vendors. The LUH/RSH and Mi-17 class remain out of reach. So far. Considering how good a design Mi-17 is and how widely we use it and the fact that numbers in our service is only going to grow further, it should go the Mig-21+HAL way. We should have full production capability in India along with cooperation with Russians to develop next generation.

I don't know why Mi-17s were not licensed produced in India?

Given the budgetary pressure and "Make in India" preference, I would think 39 Apaches may be questionable at this point unless the negotiations are in an advanced stage. Besides, it is to be expected that most of helo fleet will eventually go to the IA. Instead of 39 there would be a need for only 17 more on top of the 22 being purchased on behalf of IAF today. These would be transferred to the IA at some point I would think, otherwise it is a huge waste duplicating assets for the same purpose.

deejay · Post by **deejay** » 13 Nov 2014 06:36

^^^ srai ji, even the IAF Apache purchases are to operated with the IA. The nos. wouldn't change if only IA were buying. (Just what I gathered)