LCH and other Helicopters Discussion Thread

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Re: LCH and other Helicopters Discussion Thread

Postby Katare » 13 Jul 2011 00:52

Here is from wiki......

Canadian Disruptive Pattern (CADPAT)[1] is the computer-generated digital camouflage pattern currently used by the Canadian Forces (CF). CADPAT is designed to reduce the likelihood of detection by night vision devices.[1]

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Re: LCH and other Helicopters Discussion Thread

Postby NRao » 13 Jul 2011 03:25

How do you test camouflage on a non flying aircraft?


Most good camouflages are computer recommended and generated. As far as I know most, if not all, of AC/Helo Camo is computer generated. The one on these helos has to be computer gened.

2008 :: How to disappear

Then:

LCH TD-2 makes a silent maiden flight; platform incorporates lots of new features

The LCH TD-2 was the main draw at Aero India 2011 wrapped in digital camouflage paint -- a technology mastered by India recently.

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Re: LCH and other Helicopters Discussion Thread

Postby saip » 13 Jul 2011 04:20

A colleague of mine was in the US army. He is color blind. I was surprised he could join the army inspite of that. He told me he was recruited precisely because of that as he could see some colors - and through most camos - which regular guys could not.

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Re: LCH and other Helicopters Discussion Thread

Postby NRao » 13 Jul 2011 04:25

saip wrote:A colleague of mine was in the US army. He is color blind. I was surprised he could join the army inspite of that. He told me he was recruited precisely because of that as he could see some colors - and through most camos - which regular guys could not.



Hmmmmmm. Interesting. Can they not mimic that via hardware/software, unless they have already done that? Filters?

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Re: LCH and other Helicopters Discussion Thread

Postby saip » 13 Jul 2011 04:42

I am sure now they can. As he is in his mid 50s, he must have joined the army some 30 years ago before the computers have become common.

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Re: LCH and other Helicopters Discussion Thread

Postby VishalJ » 16 Jul 2011 02:53

Shrinivasan wrote:I Promise a Treat for the first person to post a picture of this deadly beast in all her glory - TD2 flying during first test flight!!! :D


Image While its not exactly what you asked but still, can i get some sort of consolation prize for this plis ? :mrgreen:

LCH TD2 ZP4602 (High-Res) > http://www.airliners.net/photo/1951617/L/

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Re: LCH and other Helicopters Discussion Thread

Postby Shrinivasan » 16 Jul 2011 03:11

Vishal Jolapara wrote:
Shrinivasan wrote:I Promise a Treat for the first person to post a picture of this deadly beast in all her glory - TD2 flying during first test flight!!! :D


Image While its not exactly what you asked but still, can i get some sort of consolation prize for this plis ? :mrgreen:

LCH TD2 ZP4602 (High-Res) > http://www.airliners.net/photo/1951617/L/

the pictire is awesome... lungi dance moment....
you get it... please email me your address from my profile... I'll send you some goodies...

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Re: LCH and other Helicopters Discussion Thread

Postby SriKumar » 16 Jul 2011 10:00

suryag wrote:pics of the lch td2 in air, camo looks menacing, in pic4 it is hard to make out the LCH in the midst of the buildings

Just Loving It! Here Comes LCH TD-2!
Quite a set of pix. This digital camouflage thing makes my head spin. It is really amazing....not at all easy to spot it against plain (whitish) sky, and especially so against any sort of a background. Thanks to tarmak007 for the great pix.

And a consolation prize to Vishal's picture as well :) . I wont tire of looking at the digital camo pictures.

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Re: LCH and other Helicopters Discussion Thread

Postby Shrinivasan » 16 Jul 2011 12:29

Vishal Jolapara wrote:While its not exactly what you asked but still, can i get some sort of consolation prize for this plis? LCH TD2 ZP4602 (High-Res) > http://www.airliners.net/photo/1951617/L/

Guys,
I showed this picture to a gentlemen who was in the Apache Program in Hughes helicopter / McDonnel Douglas helicopter which is not Boeing Defense system. In those days, they wanted to give a very low observable camo to Apache and gave up. He said, this was awesome and wanted me to send him this picture... He is FLOOOOORED!!!
He was wondering why US has not used this on its helos?
He mentioned another project he was involved in where they had a special camo for F15 on the underside so that a plane flying below cannot discern it against the blue sky above it!!! This guy was a Boeing Simulators guru!!!

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Re: LCH and other Helicopters Discussion Thread

Postby Ashwini » 16 Jul 2011 15:38

Vishal Jolapara wrote:
Shrinivasan wrote:I Promise a Treat for the first person to post a picture of this deadly beast in all her glory - TD2 flying during first test flight!!! :D


Image While its not exactly what you asked but still, can i get some sort of consolation prize for this plis ? :mrgreen:

LCH TD2 ZP4602 (High-Res) > http://www.airliners.net/photo/1951617/L/

Superb!

You certainly deserve more than just a treat for all the stunning photos of the LCH machine that you have already shot.

These two are my personal favorite:

Image

Image

Just 1 Q, how do you comment on the photos there at A.net ?

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Re: LCH and other Helicopters Discussion Thread

Postby ashish raval » 16 Jul 2011 16:47

Can make it better by putting "Gatling Gun" instead of single barrel gun in the front. ;)

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Re: LCH and other Helicopters Discussion Thread

Postby nrshah » 16 Jul 2011 17:21

^^^No, I think helicopter in the class of LCH will not be able to take the recoil of Gatling guns... My 2 paise.. Guru will be able to shed more details

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Re: LCH and other Helicopters Discussion Thread

Postby VishalJ » 16 Jul 2011 17:50

Shrinivasan wrote:the pictire is awesome... lungi dance moment....
you get it... please email me your address from my profile... I'll send you some goodies...

Thank You saar, thou art very kind Image

(apologise to mods it this is OT) A Japanese genteman sent me an ANA 787 Dreamliner 1:200 model + a male Kimono and other misc stuff about 2 years ago as a gesture of appreciation for allowing him to use one of my photo for a personal purpose.
Turns out, the postman comes to my house a few weeks later & gives my mother a bill reciept to pay ~2k INR as customs duty to collect that parcel from the local post-office :D

SriKumar & Ashwini: Appreciate you compliments

Ashwini wrote:Just 1 Q, how do you comment on the photos there at A.net ?


There's a Rating & Comments Bar below every photo, Like this: :wink:

Image

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Re: LCH and other Helicopters Discussion Thread

Postby wig » 16 Jul 2011 18:01

IAF helicopter(cheetah) makes emergency landing in Panchari, near Udhampur, J&K

JAMMU, July 15: An Indian Air Force (IAF) chopper had to make an emergency landing in the mountainous area of Udhampur district this afternoon after sudden clouds and fog reduced the visibility considerably.

Reports said that chopper with seating capacity for four persons was flying towards the Udhampur air base at around 12.15 pm when visibility got reduced considerably due to dense fog and clouds forcing the pilot to look for suitable area to make emergency landing.

The pilot made attempts of emergency landing near Shankri Devta, Natha Top and other adjoining areas but could not do so because of poor visibility as a result of which chopper remained hovering in the sky for some time.

Later, the pilot safely made emergency landing in an open area of Forest Guest House at Panchari. On getting information from the IAF about the emergency landing of chopper, SSP Udhampur, Shakeel Beigh deputed police officers to the Forest Guest House for security of the chopper as several villagers had gathered in the area to have glimpse of the chopper.

The chopper flew from Panchari at around 3.30 pm following improvement in the visibility and landed at Udhampur air base.

Captain Rahul Naniwal, Flying Officer Kunal and two Technicians S S Rawat and B N Prasad were flying in the chopper.

http://www.dailyexcelsior.com/

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Re: LCH and other Helicopters Discussion Thread

Postby ashish raval » 16 Jul 2011 18:26

nrshah wrote:^^^No, I think helicopter in the class of LCH will not be able to take the recoil of Gatling guns... My 2 paise.. Guru will be able to shed more details

Guess you are right here. However adding muscles to the structure could do the job at the cost of stealth !

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Re: LCH and other Helicopters Discussion Thread

Postby Rahul M » 16 Jul 2011 18:41

ashish raval wrote:Can make it better by putting "Gatling Gun" instead of single barrel gun in the front. ;)

seems like we go through this discussion every 5 weeks or so.

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Re: LCH and other Helicopters Discussion Thread

Postby Bala Vignesh » 16 Jul 2011 20:47

Another question for the FAQ section, eh Rahulji???

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Re: LCH and other Helicopters Discussion Thread

Postby shiv » 16 Jul 2011 21:03

ashish raval wrote:Can make it better by putting "Gatling Gun" instead of single barrel gun in the front. ;)

No. It will make it worse. The existing gun is an excellent and extremely accurate one.

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Re: LCH and other Helicopters Discussion Thread

Postby Bala Vignesh » 16 Jul 2011 21:21

ashish raval wrote:Can make it better by putting "Gatling Gun" instead of single barrel gun in the front. ;)

Ashishji,
Your question is answered here

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Re: LCH and other Helicopters Discussion Thread

Postby Shrinivasan » 17 Jul 2011 02:36

Rahul M wrote:
ashish raval wrote:Can make it better by putting "Gatling Gun" instead of single barrel gun in the front. ;)
seems like we go through this discussion every 5 weeks or so.

Actually the Bear is developing/developed a Gun pod with multiple gun in one pod. Someone had posted some pictures of those gun pods. It is self contained and it is very easy to reload the gun between missions, just yank out the whole pod and put in another pad which is already prepared.
A plain vanilla Gatling gun has only 1 advantage - 6 barrels but has a huge weight penalty.

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Re: LCH and other Helicopters Discussion Thread

Postby Dmurphy » 17 Jul 2011 07:11

Bala Vignesh wrote:
ashish raval wrote:Can make it better by putting "Gatling Gun" instead of single barrel gun in the front. ;)

Ashishji,
Your question is answered here
Valid point Bala. But what you're considering there is a full sized Gatling gun only. How about a mini-gun? The MH-6 Little bird, much lighter than the LCH makes use of this (so the recoil impact will be lower on LCH?). In fact we have also seen it action in Black Hawk Down and if the impact they've shown in that movie is true, then its a must have on LCH. Per wiki, its mounted on the AH1 Cobra as well. Infact, its not a bad thing to have even on the Dhruv WSI.

JMT

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Re: LCH and other Helicopters Discussion Thread

Postby NRao » 17 Jul 2011 07:38

IF there was a need for some other than the current gun it will come into the picture in the future.

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Re: LCH and other Helicopters Discussion Thread

Postby Gurneesh » 17 Jul 2011 08:11

Mini-gun is 7.62, which while good against dismounted infantry, may not be as effective as 20 mm for larger targets like bunkers, vehicles etc. Such guns are good for concentrated suppressive fire but may not be good for short bursts of effective and accurate firing.



What could be developed/used is underwing pods containing such guns to be used in areas where enemy armor is not expected (could replace the ATGM launchers with these) and main engagement will be with infantry.

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Re: LCH and other Helicopters Discussion Thread

Postby shiv » 17 Jul 2011 08:49

Gurneesh wrote:Mini-gun is 7.62, which while good against dismounted infantry, may not be as effective as 20 mm for larger targets like bunkers, vehicles etc. Such guns are good for concentrated suppressive fire but may not be good for short bursts of effective and accurate firing.



What could be developed/used is underwing pods containing such guns to be used in areas where enemy armor is not expected (could replace the ATGM launchers with these) and main engagement will be with infantry.


Podded rockets (with different types of warheads - HE/fragmentation etc) can do the same job as effectively and do not have the weight and complexity of a Gatling gun that needs to be brought home after use. Big/multiple guns on aircraft need big aircraft. Big aircraft need more fuel and overheads for the same sortie. A typical aircraft may fly 50 or even a 100 training sorties before doing 1 combat sortie unless the country is continuously using those aircraft in a prolonged conflict. So the costs are multiplied manifold with little difference in firepower.

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Re: LCH and other Helicopters Discussion Thread

Postby ashish raval » 17 Jul 2011 12:33

^^ That is good point Shiv provided they are precision rockets, however development of forward looking helo mounted light weight Gatling gun will open up some new avenue's of research and development and can have it's use in custom made helos in future. Bala your point on recoil is valid but more research into novel shock absorption technology will again lead us to invent new things which can have many applications in next generation of UCAVs and UAV's. The whole idea is to take up a challenge and develop the solution for it.

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Re: LCH and other Helicopters Discussion Thread

Postby Bala Vignesh » 17 Jul 2011 13:35

Ashish sir,
Is it really worth spending time on this effort when this capability was required yesterday.. Isn't it better to first to come up with the attack capability at these heights and then work on adding a gatling gun if required at a later stage?? Also any solution we come up with will have a weight penalty for the system apart from that of the gun..

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Re: LCH and other Helicopters Discussion Thread

Postby Bala Vignesh » 17 Jul 2011 13:48

Dmurphy wrote:Valid point Bala. But what you're considering there is a full sized Gatling gun only. How about a mini-gun? The MH-6 Little bird, much lighter than the LCH makes use of this (so the recoil impact will be lower on LCH?). In fact we have also seen it action in Black Hawk Down and if the impact they've shown in that movie is true, then its a must have on LCH. Per wiki, its mounted on the AH1 Cobra as well. Infact, its not a bad thing to have even on the Dhruv WSI.

JMT


Dmurphysaan,
While the minigun can be utilized as a side firing weapon on our Mi8/Mi17/ALH or as a podded weapon on our Lancers in troop suppression, it'll have little or no effect on armoured vehicles, even lightly armoured ones like MPV's or armoured cars. Only a large caliber canon do the work here.

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Re: LCH and other Helicopters Discussion Thread

Postby shiv » 17 Jul 2011 13:53

ashish raval wrote:^^ That is good point Shiv provided they are precision rockets, however development of forward looking helo mounted light weight Gatling gun will open up some new avenue's of research and development and can have it's use in custom made helos in future.


This is how I see the issue of Gatling guns and the future of guns.

The design of guns has remained stable for maybe 500 years. There has been no change in the original design of tube with chemical explosion pushing a projectile. The Gatling is just a multi barrel hack to overcome the limitations of a gun in terms of barrel heating and mechanical loading. I do not see much of a future for this. I can only see some future in newer concepts like magnetic guns or some such thing.

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Re: LCH and other Helicopters Discussion Thread

Postby andy B » 17 Jul 2011 17:56

Shrinivasan wrote:Actually the Bear is developing/developed a Gun pod with multiple gun in one pod. Someone had posted some pictures of those gun pods. It is self contained and it is very easy to reload the gun between missions, just yank out the whole pod and put in another pad which is already prepared.
A plain vanilla Gatling gun has only 1 advantage - 6 barrels but has a huge weight penalty.


Srini OT for this thread, however do you have any links claiming the above information as far as I know I had posted a pic of these very gun pod and Austin had confirmed the name it was also posted in the Military Photos thread link: http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/sh ... 9/page2928

It is not at all a new pod or one in development if anything its not even in current use.

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Re: LCH and other Helicopters Discussion Thread

Postby andy B » 17 Jul 2011 18:10

ashish raval wrote:Can make it better by putting "Gatling Gun" instead of single barrel gun in the front. ;)


Boss that nexter cannon that the LCH is lugging around has two big advantages low recoil and light weight critical points if the cannon is to be mounted on the LCH chasis. In addition the 20MM is a fairly potent projectile which is a good balance between the big 30MM and the 12.7MM.
In regards to the Gatling cannon well bar the Mangusta every other major attack chopper has a single barrel gun be it the apache, havoc, tiger...hell even the new mi35s coming out are being built with a twin barrel 23mm gun as seen for the Venzuelan and Brazilian examples....There must be something right in the single barrel for so many attack choppers to use them.

IMHO they have selected the perfect Cannon for the LCH...

JMT

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Re: LCH and other Helicopters Discussion Thread

Postby ashish raval » 17 Jul 2011 19:53

^^ Agree with lot of points here.

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Re: LCH and other Helicopters Discussion Thread

Postby Shrinivasan » 18 Jul 2011 00:00

andy B wrote:Srini OT for this thread, however do you have any links claiming the above information as far as I know I had posted a pic of these very gun pod and Austin had confirmed the name it was also posted in the Military Photos thread link: http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/sh ... 9/page2928
It is not at all a new pod or one in development if anything its not even in current use.

here are couple of link from the work done both in US as well as RU on the same... very similar concept... advantages being the ability to quickly take off / install the gun pod...reloads etc...
Link1 - from near country - http://militaryforces.ru/weapon-1-24-156.html
Link2 - Khanland - http://www.aerospaceweb.org/question/planes/q0163.shtml
BTB, how is this discussion OT?

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Re: LCH and other Helicopters Discussion Thread

Postby Bala Vignesh » 19 Jul 2011 20:48

Well gun pods are a whole different thing, as far as weight is concerned, since they come under payload and are not permanent fixtures on the aircraft unlike the chin guns.
The recoil factor still matters but seeing that its a 12.7mm gun the effect will not be as pronounced as that of 20mm canons or higher.

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Re: LCH and other Helicopters Discussion Thread

Postby Shrinivasan » 20 Jul 2011 01:30

Bala Vignesh wrote:Well gun pods are a whole different thing, as far as weight is concerned, since they come under payload and are not permanent fixtures on the aircraft unlike the chin guns.
The recoil factor still matters but seeing that its a 12.7mm gun the effect will not be as pronounced as that of 20mm canons or higher.

Bala, neither example I showed is a 12.7mm gun, the RU one is a 23mm and the JSF one is a 25mm gun. the Pod absorbs the recoil, which is the beauty of this podded gun.

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Re: LCH and other Helicopters Discussion Thread

Postby Avid » 20 Jul 2011 02:09

Rahul M wrote:
ashish raval wrote:Can make it better by putting "Gatling Gun" instead of single barrel gun in the front. ;)

seems like we go through this discussion every 5 weeks or so.


Just to irritate you Rahul :-)

You would be an awesome Mod by putting a Gatling Gun instead of right hand :rotfl:

We have quite a few who would like all equipment to be "Rambo" of their class. Mount the biggest, baddest, guns, missiles, and while at it also put the personnel on steroids.

--- begin sarcasm ---
Rather sad that while these brilliant chaps can come up with a solution to make bad-ass equipment for Indian armed forces within seconds of looking at mere pictures, the pathetic sad nimcompoops at DRDO/ADA/HAL/etc. cannot even conceive of it in years and years they have been working on these projects
--- end --

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Re: LCH and other Helicopters Discussion Thread

Postby Shrinivasan » 20 Jul 2011 05:15

Off with their heads, feed them to the dogs, trample them under the elephants.. Jingos love to discuss anything threadbare, and we all learn.

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Re: LCH and other Helicopters Discussion Thread

Postby Hari Nair » 20 Jul 2011 20:59

Shrinivasan wrote:...Bala, neither example I showed is a 12.7mm gun, the RU one is a 23mm and the JSF one is a 25mm gun. the Pod absorbs the recoil, which is the beauty of this podded gun.


The problem with a podded gun is that it cannot be aimed independent of the fore-and-aft axis of the aircraft. There are a whole lot of advantages in being able to slew the cannon to a desired direction.

@ Shiv - the basic principles may have remained the same- however there are tremendous, exponential degree of improvements, as far as weight, calibre, accuracy, penetration capability and specialised warheads are concerned. And that's where the 'Bang-for-the-buck' really is!
Last edited by Hari Nair on 21 Jul 2011 08:33, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: LCH and other Helicopters Discussion Thread

Postby shiv » 20 Jul 2011 21:07

Hari Nair wrote:
The problem with a podded gun is that it cannot be aimed independent of the fore-and-aft axis of the aircraft. There are a whole lot of advantages in being able to slew the cannon to a desired direction.

@ Shiv - the basic principles may have remained the same- however there are tremendous, exponential degree of improvements, as far as weight, calibre, accuracy, penetration capability and specialised warheads are concerned. And that's where the 'Bang-for-the-buck' really is!



Welcome back stranger. Hope things are progressing well in your street. That digital camo is terrific.

Yes I am sure you are right about guns - but I was skeptical that a Gatling is the way forward - particularly for a helo.

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Re: LCH and other Helicopters Discussion Thread

Postby Hari Nair » 20 Jul 2011 21:38

Thanks Shiv! The team is trying to do its best - the camo scheme appears to have hit the mark.

The Gatling certainly increases rate-of-fire. However, one also needs a minimum 'weight-of-fire', so to speak. Light or medium calibre Gatlings are okay to integrate on helicopters. However, the required penetration capability needs a higher calibre and the recoil force is the main stumbling block. Another way out is to have a single or twin-barrel heavier calibre cannon with good accuracy, with the acceptable trade-off being the lower rate-of-fire

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Re: LCH and other Helicopters Discussion Thread

Postby vasu_ray » 20 Jul 2011 22:49

choti mooh badi baath,

Are there plans for a removable, retractable, refueling boom? which seems to be a low hanging fruit in the overall feature set

and for handling gun recoil, the following concept may be helpful

http://wiki.answers.com/Q/How_the_speed ... lectricity

allowing for total mechanical decoupling of the gun recoil motion on the heli the downside being accommodating the additional weight of the dynamo setup, draining this power can be done by the on board electronics


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