LCH and other Helicopters Discussion Thread

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SagarAg
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Re: LCH and other Helicopters Discussion Thread

Postby SagarAg » 30 Jun 2012 12:16

More Photos 8) -
Image

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Re: LCH and other Helicopters Discussion Thread

Postby krishnan » 30 Jun 2012 12:20

I should be able to see the LCH as the sea trials are going to happen near tambaram , just 1/2 hr away from my house :D

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Re: LCH and other Helicopters Discussion Thread

Postby svinayak » 30 Jun 2012 12:29

Comment section

PS: Since some people think China is somehow better at development here are some facts about Chinese WZ-10

By the mid-1980s, the Chinese decided a dedicated attack helicopter was required. At the time, they used civilian helicopters converted for the military; these were no longer adequate in the attack role, and suitable only as scouts. Following this, China evaluated the Agusta A129 Mangusta, and in 1988 secured an agreement with the USA to purchase AH-1 Cobras and a license to produce BGM-71 TOW missiles; the latter was cancelled following the Tiananmen Square protests of 1989 and the resulting arms embargo. The colour revolutions prevented the purchase of attack helicopters from Eastern Europe in 1990 and 1991; Bulgaria and Russia rejected Chinese offers to purchase the Mil Mi-24.

At least three type of turboshaft engines have been successfully tested for WZ-10, all of them foreign built. Russian Klimov VK-2500 turboshaft engine that powers Mil Mi-17s sold to China is among the ones used, and so are the Pratt & Whitney Canada PT6C-67C that powers civilian helicopters of western origin in Chinese service. Ukrainian Motor-Sich TV3-117 that powers Mil Mi-28 has also successfully tested, and Ukrainians are helping Chinese to develop its own indigenous turboshaft engine. It’s rumored that European MTR390 that powers Eurocopter Tiger has also been selected, but this cannot be confirmed. Due to the delay in the developing of Chinese domestic engines, all prototypes and pre-production series of WZ-10 are powered by foreign engines.Pratt & Whitney Canada has admitted to providing the software to convert their engines for military use, in violation of U.S. export control law. They started testing in 2001 and got it inducted after 8 YEARS of testing at around 2009.(no proof of induction)

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Re: LCH and other Helicopters Discussion Thread

Postby ArmenT » 30 Jun 2012 13:10

SagarAg wrote:More Photos 8) -

Is that a photoshop? I thought there are only two prototypes flying and one of them is in digital-camo colors.

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Re: LCH and other Helicopters Discussion Thread

Postby Vashishtha » 30 Jun 2012 13:55

Is that a photoshop? I thought there are only two prototypes flying and one of them is in digital-camo colors.

Same here

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Re: LCH and other Helicopters Discussion Thread

Postby shiv » 30 Jun 2012 14:56

Confucius say "Chinaman see photoshop, smile at inside seclet, and closs post arr over Internet. Indian see photoshop express surprise and let cat out of bag"

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Re: LCH and other Helicopters Discussion Thread

Postby Manish_Sharma » 30 Jun 2012 15:27

^^ :rotfl:

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Re: LCH and other Helicopters Discussion Thread

Postby member_19648 » 30 Jun 2012 17:19

What is going on in the ALH Rudra front? It was supposed to get IOC 1 this may and as per reports was nearly ready!!! any further news on it?

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Re: LCH and other Helicopters Discussion Thread

Postby Zynda » 30 Jun 2012 18:09

Question for Hari or Raghu...when I used to go through Janes back in 2002-2003 time frame, it was mentioned that HAL intends to reduce ALH weight to around 2200 Kg from existing 2500 Kg. Any progress on this?

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Re: LCH and other Helicopters Discussion Thread

Postby tushar_m » 02 Jul 2012 00:09

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_av ... fghanistan

please scroll down & see the losses of CH-47 Chinook very high in Afghanistan

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Re: LCH and other Helicopters Discussion Thread

Postby rohitvats » 02 Jul 2012 01:14

^^^And the point is?

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Re: LCH and other Helicopters Discussion Thread

Postby member_19648 » 04 Jul 2012 17:18

Nice informative article on LCH and its ongoing trials.

http://www.defencenow.com/news/754/hals-light-combat-helicopter-lch-to-undergo-week-long-trials-in-tamil-nadu.html

HAL’s Light Combat Helicopter (LCH) to Undergo Week-Long Trials in Tamil Nadu
Posted on: June 29, 2012
The Light Combat Helicopter (LCH), developed to cater to the needs of the IAF and the Indian Army, is all set to undergo sea-level trials near Chennai in Tamil Nadu. The LCH is a multirole combat helicopter being developed by state-run Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL). According to reports, the sea-level trials in Tamil Nadu will carry on for a week or more.

As reported by the media, a prototype of the LCH has arrived in Tambaram (Tamil Nadu) along with a Mi-8 helicopter from the IAF’s Yelahanka station. Regarding the trials on the LCH, these will include generic performance and handling at sea-level, calibration of the LCH's air speed measurement system and measurement of forces in terms of stress on various components of the platform, sources indicated.

Like most public sector Defence projects, the LCH has also had its share of delays. The LCH was expected to be ready for the Initial Operational Clearance (IOC) by December 2010 with the Final Operational Clearance (FOC) in 2011. However, as per the new schedules and timeframes, the LCH should be ready for induction only by 2012-2013.

The LCH is a 5.5 tonne multi-role combat chopper and is a derivative of the ‘Dhruv’ ALH already in service with the Armed Forces. The LCH is designed to fit into an anti-infantry and anti-armour role and will be able to operate at high altitudes in the range of 6000-7000 metres. The LCH is powered by the HAL/Turbomeca Shakti turbo-shaft engine and equipped with helmet-mounted targeting systems, electronic warfare systems and advanced weapons systems. With a data link on board, the LCH will be able to carry out network-centric operations. It will have a glass cockpit, gun and rocket pods, air-to-air and air-to-ground missiles to attack and destroy hostile positions high in the mountains.

Sources indicated that two more prototypes of the LCH are under construction in order to achieve its induction into the IAF by this year end. Apparently, a third prototype in on the anvil and it may well be the final LCH in terms of dimension, design and configuration. However, more weapon trials and flight tests will be carried out before the LCH gets inducted in the Armed Forces.

Regarding the project costs for the LCH, the amount is $ 174.8 million and HAL has revealed that the IAF is set to acquire 65 LCHs and Indian Army will acquire 114 LCHs. As of now, off-base trials at sea level have been conducted followed by off-based hot weather and cold weather trials at high altitude in Ladakh. As for the second prototype, the LCH TD-2, it has been weaponized with more sub-systems and over 20 test flights have been conducted to check various flight parameters. The second prototype was flown to a height of 10,000 feet with an all-up weight (AUW) of 4,900 kgs. The parameters included general handling, slow speed handling, basic automatic flight control system (AFCS) checks and 60 degree bank turns.

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Re: LCH and other Helicopters Discussion Thread

Postby nits » 04 Jul 2012 17:47

^^ in every news article; is it mandatory to talk about delays... why can't we focus on good aspects of program and feel proud of the fantastic machine we have built...

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Re: LCH and other Helicopters Discussion Thread

Postby Surya » 04 Jul 2012 18:54

may take ages

but then why blame the DDM when we have people in BRF who indulge in that

we are supposed to be a more informed lot

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Re: LCH and other Helicopters Discussion Thread

Postby shiv » 09 Jul 2012 16:22

Cross post


This photograph illustrates what Hari Nair (IIRC) said long ago in response to a question about the "above the nose" placement of the electro-optical sensor. From the position where the photographer is standing none of the weapons on the LCH can be brought to bear on any target near the photographer, but yet the dome of the EO sensor is fully visible and the photographer will be picked up by the EO sensor looking down . The point really is that the EO sensor is needed to see targets up front and slightly below rather than directly below and behind. Having it under the nose may give the capability to see some degree behind and directly below, but but that is not of great use for targeting , and some aerial targets up front and above the helo will be missed by having the EO sensor below.

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Re: LCH and other Helicopters Discussion Thread

Postby joygoswami » 30 Jul 2012 23:50

An Old Report On The ALH Dhruv, and The Limitations Of The Naval Version.

ALH Dhruv: Navy’s Arjun tank?

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Re: LCH and other Helicopters Discussion Thread

Postby pralay » 31 Jul 2012 10:09


LOL,
That is a wallpaper I had made in 2010, looks like my name and credits are removed from it(by Pirates of the India)
It was photoshoped by me and its not of actual weapons trial.

The original is at http://possible.in/wallpapers/2010/wallpaper2.jpg

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Re: LCH and other Helicopters Discussion Thread

Postby wig » 06 Aug 2012 08:48

Each life-extended copter saves IAF Rs 2 crore daily
The Indian Air Force’s (IAF) life-extension programme for its helicopter fleet is paying rich dividends. Each copter that has been cleared for extending its service life is saving the IAF Rs 2 crore per day.

The savings, according to IAF officers, are on account of deferred purchases of new aircraft as well as aircraft components and sub-systems.

The IAF had launched a project at No. 3 Base Repair Depot here to extend the life of its Mi-8 helicopters in five-year phases.

As a helicopter neared the end of its stipulated calendar and technical life, it was put through a series of tests to determine the feasibility of extending its life by a few more years.

Many Mi-8 helicopters were cleared for life extension while some machines were decommissioned due to technical reasons.

The IAF has about 80 Mi-8 helicopters in service, providing medium transport capability along with the Mi-17, its more powerful successor. The earlier versions of the Mi-17, which were inducted in the 1980s, will also undergo life extension.

“Given the number of helicopters involved, the savings incurred on account of life extension is significant,” an officer said. “It is not just the airframe and engine, but a host of other components where replacement can be deferred,” he added.

It is not just the Mi series of helicopters, but also other aircraft that are undergoing life extension.

The IAF’s AN-32 tactical transporter fleet is undergoing the same process after a pilot project was undertaken in Ukraine. The AN-32’s engines, which are overhauled at 3 BRD, have been cleared for life extension by 500 hours.

Life extension plays an important role as it allows for maintaining squadron strength and making aerial assets available for operational requirements in time when the cost of military hardware is sky-rocketing and procurement process remains mired in red-tape and controversies.

http://www.tribuneindia.com/2012/20120806/nation.htm#8

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Re: LCH and other Helicopters Discussion Thread

Postby joygoswami » 23 Sep 2012 03:19


andy B
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Re: LCH and other Helicopters Discussion Thread

Postby andy B » 02 Oct 2012 16:32

Article on LCH : About LCH by Mike Hirschberg

via militaryphotos.net posted by Kunal Biswas onlee! enjoi.

http://i.imgur.com/9SGoB.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/sgQ24.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/79mw3.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/srdXg.jpg

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Re: LCH and other Helicopters Discussion Thread

Postby krishnan » 02 Oct 2012 17:43


Shubham
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Re: LCH and other Helicopters Discussion Thread

Postby Shubham » 09 Oct 2012 18:03

Comparing pics of Mi-35 and LCH , where is the airspeed sensor located on LCH ??

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Re: LCH and other Helicopters Discussion Thread

Postby joygoswami » 09 Oct 2012 22:46

Some New and Old pic of ALH Rudra and Dhruv from FB.

Image

Image

Image

Image

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Re: LCH and other Helicopters Discussion Thread

Postby Shrinivasan » 10 Oct 2012 02:56

krishnan wrote:1 merged PDF of the above images
https://rapidshare.com/files/668164181/1_merged.pdf

Thanks Krishnan, I really enjoyed reading the PDF. do you mind If I host it on Scribd for fellow Jingos?

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Re: LCH and other Helicopters Discussion Thread

Postby krishnan » 10 Oct 2012 06:04

ok with me

do we really have 231 active members ??? :-o

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Re: LCH and other Helicopters Discussion Thread

Postby arijitkm » 24 Oct 2012 00:00

HAL’s Light Utility Helicopter (LUH) taking shape

HAL’s In House Publication have Informed that the first Bottom Structure and Tail boom for Ground Test Vehicle of Light Utility Helicopter (LUH) has been Launched in Presence of HAL chairman and MD , it was also informed that LUH assembly Jigs are modular and gaugeless jigs , concurrently designed along with structure design using CAD 3D .
Light Utility Helicopter (LUH) will replace the fleet of Cheetah and Chetak helicopters in Indian air force and Indian army , Both Military forces have requirements of 187 helicopters. Light Utility Helicopter (LUH) will be powered by single engined HAL/Turbomeca Shakti turboshaft, Twin engined HAL/Turbomeca Shakti turboshaft currently powers ALH Dhruv Helicopters and currently HAL and France are developing a Single engined Power House for LUH based on Shakti turboshaft.

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Re: LCH and other Helicopters Discussion Thread

Postby VinodTK » 21 Nov 2012 07:48

Boeing Could Win Another Indian Helicopter Contract

NEW DELHI — When it comes to selling military aircraft to India, Boeing is on a roll.

After winning a $1.3 billion Indian Air Force contract for 22 AH-64D Apache attack helicopters last month — and getting selected as the preferred vendor for India’s $1.4 billion heavylift helicopter competition with its Chinook CH-47F — Boeing could get another contract, this time for more Apaches to be used by the Army, Indian Ministry of Defence sources said.

The Indian MoD chose the 22 Apache helicopters for the Air Force over Russia’s Mi-28 helicopters.

U.S. firms have already won contracts worth more than $8 billion in the past four years, and most of the weapons and equipment supplied to India have come through the Foreign Military Sales (FMS) route. India contracted 10 Boeing C-17 aircraft for $4.2 billion, 12 Boeing P-3I maritime surveillance aircraft and six Lockheed Martin C-130J aircraft. The other major suppliers in the FMS route have been the Russians.

While the Indian Army had been demanding attack helicopters independent of the Indian Air Force, the Air Force has opposed the plan. A senior Air Force official described the move as the creation of a mini air force within the Army.

The MoD, however, decided last month to allow the Army to use attack helicopters but has not publicly said which service will get the 22 Apaches ordered last month. MoD sources said the Air Force will receive the 22 helicopters.

For Boeing, the order book could remain active, as the Indian Navy has proposed ordering an additional 12 P-8I — for a total of 24 aircraft — through FMS.

The method has become the preferred purchase route for India, as opposed to open competition.

And the FMS route could get busier if the U.S. agrees to dilute legal conditions that include restrictive clauses governing the placement and use of U.S.-bought weapons, an MoD official said.

India has signed restrictive clauses when buying U.S. weapons, a move opposed by senior Indian Navy and Air Force personnel, the official said.

India’s comptroller and auditor general, in a 2008 report, raised doubts over agreeing to such conditions regarding the purchase of an amphibious ship.

“Restrictive clauses raise doubts about the real advantage from this deal,” the report said. “For example, restrictions on the offensive deployment of the ship and permission to the foreign government to conduct an inspection and inventory of all articles transferred under the end-use monitoring clause of the letter of agreement.”

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Re: LCH and other Helicopters Discussion Thread

Postby Singha » 21 Nov 2012 08:34

I think for now the IA is better off investing heavily into WSI Dhruv and LCH because both should have superior hi-alt perf compared to the heavier apache and be cheaper as well. this is optimizing for the next war we are likely to fight which is not against TSP but Cheen.

later on when a good situation is attained in the himalayas, icing and cherries like apaches could be sought for "red guards shock armies" and "operational manouver groups" poised to advance on kashgar, urumqi and lhasa :)

I dont know how nimble and fast the apache will be with 16 hellfires at 15,000ft vs at sea level though.

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Re: LCH and other Helicopters Discussion Thread

Postby rohitvats » 21 Nov 2012 10:29

^^^The additional AH-64D news ties in with the excerpt I had quoted from recent article in FORCE Magazine by ex-LTG from AAC. IA is looking at Apaches for its Strike Corps and 7-8 Squadrons of WSI Dhruvs for Pivot Corps. LCH would be added to the melee from 2015-2016 period when it becomes available.

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Re: LCH and other Helicopters Discussion Thread

Postby Singha » 21 Nov 2012 11:17

>> IA is looking at Apaches for its Strike Corps

er but I thought the entire rationale of IAFs Hinds and now apaches was to support the strike corps?

what will the IAF apaches do if the IA dedicates its apaches to the 3 strike corps.

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Re: LCH and other Helicopters Discussion Thread

Postby Bala Vignesh » 21 Nov 2012 12:56

IAF ones could be used for SEAD/DEAD ops in conjunction with their fighters..

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Re: LCH and other Helicopters Discussion Thread

Postby Kersi D » 21 Nov 2012 13:24

nits wrote:^^ in every news article; is it mandatory to talk about delays... why can't we focus on good aspects of program and feel proud of the fantastic machine we have built...


OF COURSE
We have to regularly prove that the white man and yellow man and Russian man and ...... man is superior to us SDRE.

K

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Re: LCH and other Helicopters Discussion Thread

Postby Singha » 21 Nov 2012 18:45

Bala Vignesh wrote:IAF ones could be used for SEAD/DEAD ops in conjunction with their fighters..



its very risky for helicopters to be doing this - lack of range, ceiling, speed, vulnerable against enemy fighters.
fighters and ARMs do it much better. we also have harpy and harop for this launched from jags and mirages. the apache in any case features no special ability like stealth to deeply penetrate enemy airspace - now if we had 50 ShadowHawks of the abbotabad variety with internal bay containing hellfires and HARM-NG that would be something.

http://defense-update.com/20090614_harop-order.html

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Re: LCH and other Helicopters Discussion Thread

Postby Brando » 21 Nov 2012 18:48

Does anybody have the specifics of the EO/IR package on the LCH ?? I've been hoping for more information on it. Can anybody point me to an article or link that specifies the hardware ?

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Re: LCH and other Helicopters Discussion Thread

Postby Brando » 21 Nov 2012 18:58

Singha wrote:
Bala Vignesh wrote:IAF ones could be used for SEAD/DEAD ops in conjunction with their fighters..



its very risky for helicopters to be doing this - lack of range, ceiling, speed, vulnerable against enemy fighters.
fighters and ARMs do it much better. we also have harpy and harop for this launched from jags and mirages.


Actually one of the specific roles of the AH-64s in the US military is SEAD. They used them in Operation Desert Storm against Iraqi SAM sites. So while Apache's might not have stealth or long range ARMs they do posses the ability to fly low - below radar coverage to sneak up on a SAM site and take it out with minimal fuss. In fact the opening salvo of Operation Desert Storm was an Apache "DEAD" strike on the Iraqi SAM network.

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Re: LCH and other Helicopters Discussion Thread

Postby Singha » 21 Nov 2012 19:46

that was the only instance I have read of apaches in that role. are there any other material that speaks of this as a standard operational tactic?

it could have been done with a tomahawk salvo or ALCMs from B52s I suppose...the iraqi radars were all compromised and rivet joints could have jammed them.

carlo kopp has a glowing report on his demo flight and confirms something we had thought of - longbow apaches handing targets off.
http://www.ausairpower.net/longbow-aa.html

The mast mounted radar and RFI allow the Apache Longbow to remain masked behind terrain, only exposing the rotodome and RFI to detect targets. MMWI Hellfires can then be fired from a concealed location, with the pylon angles automatically adjusted by software to clear the rotor and terrain. An opponent will see the missiles pop up over the horizon and dive down to hit. Since the weapons are fire and forget, ie fully autonomous, once they are launched the helo can immediately move away to avoid "counter-battery" fire.

The provision of a highly automated weapon system with basic sensor fusion is unique at this time to the Apache Longbow, and provides clearly unprecedented lethality in comparison with helicopters using only thermal imaging sights and laser guided missiles. Such systems are limited to engaging one target at a time, unlike the Apache Longbow which can engage many targets concurrently.

The Apache Longbow's capability however extends further, since the IDM datalinking allows an Apache Longbow to hand off targets to non radar equipped AH-64D Apaches. In effect it becomes the notional equivalent of an AEW platform vectoring shooters on to targets. The US Army CONOPS is for a section of baseline AH-64Ds to be led by one or more Longbow equipped aircraft, which will provide wide area situational coverage of the battlefield for the remaining aircraft. The Longbow is the "hunter-killer" and the baseline AH-64Ds the "killers" in the "hunter-killer" package.

This does not preclude the operation of sections wholly equipped with Longbow, or not equipped with Longbow. All aircraft can be fitted with the system, and all crews are trained to use it. The MMWI Hellfire can be carried by all aircraft, although it is most effective when supported by the Longbow.

A textbook "ambush" scenario would see a Apache Longbow led AH-64D section move into position masked by terrain and coordinating via datalink. The lead ship would then raise its Longbow system to detect targets, and then drop back under cover, while the lead gunner distributes the targets via "drag and drop" to the other aircraft in the group, to avoid multiple targeting. At that point, all aircraft can salvo launch their MMWI Hellfires and back out into a new position, while the missiles attack the targets. The software "remembers" the coordinates of attacked targets and flags these on the screen with an X to avoid redundant reattack and wasting of rounds.

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Re: LCH and other Helicopters Discussion Thread

Postby Bala Vignesh » 21 Nov 2012 20:24

The same ambush tactic can be used to hunt for SAM sites too, right?? The choppers fly in under the radar, reach pre designated positions, the hunters put the longbow above the cover to get the targets, which is then distributed to the whole pack and the whole pack attacks simultanously and then get the hell out of there.

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Re: LCH and other Helicopters Discussion Thread

Postby rohitvats » 21 Nov 2012 21:43

Singha wrote:>> IA is looking at Apaches for its Strike Corps

er but I thought the entire rationale of IAFs Hinds and now apaches was to support the strike corps?

what will the IAF apaches do if the IA dedicates its apaches to the 3 strike corps.


Well, for that to be answered, we need to know the holding per Squadron planned for the Apaches. Since, these gunship formations are called Squadrons*, I guess they also have something like 16+2 kind of holding pattern. Based on this logic, I think IA will require something like 60 odd birds. With 22 in kitty, I think rest will be used to raise more squadrons.

As for the current Mi-24/35 gunships, one of the Squadrons is in Suratgarh which I think works in tande with II Corps. Other one is in Pathankot - this would be used to provide offensive firepower in the critical Gurdaspur-Pathankot-Sambha corridor.

So, my guess is that both 21 and I Corps are likely to see organic Apache units of their own.

***From what I understand, the reason M-24/35 units are called Squadrons is because of the number of units held by them. In decreasing order, the nomenclature is Squadron-->Unit-->Flight. Apart from these gunships squadrons, the Mi-8/17 equipped formations are all called Helicopter Units and they I think have 10-12 birds.

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Re: LCH and other Helicopters Discussion Thread

Postby sarabpal.s » 21 Nov 2012 22:11

how many hind in service with IA?

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Re: LCH and other Helicopters Discussion Thread

Postby Bala Vignesh » 21 Nov 2012 22:31

rohitvats wrote:***From what I understand, the reason M-24/35 units are called Squadrons is because of the number of units held by them. In decreasing order, the nomenclature is Squadron-->Unit-->Flight. Apart from these gunships squadrons, the Mi-8/17 equipped formations are all called Helicopter Units and they I think have 10-12 birds.

Rohit Miyan,
By that logic, shouldn't the transport squadrons be titled as units too s they hold 10-12 aircraft only??
And as per the BR's fleet strength list the Gunship squadrons hold around 10 birds per squadron..


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