LCH and other Helicopters Discussion Thread

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merlin
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Re: LCH and other Helicopters Discussion Thread

Postby merlin » 09 Sep 2014 19:30

So remains to be seen if Apache to Apache communication using US comm links can be easily changes to Apache to LCH using BEL DL/ODL.

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Re: LCH and other Helicopters Discussion Thread

Postby shaun » 09 Sep 2014 19:42

Apache Block 3 AH-64D can control UAV using Unmanned aerial systems tactical common data link assembly (UTA).

BEL is yet to supply tactical data link for UAV,namely C-band LOS and SATCOM base data link system.

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Re: LCH and other Helicopters Discussion Thread

Postby koti » 09 Sep 2014 19:50

merlin wrote:
pragnya wrote:Koti is possibly referring to the BEL datalink2 on the indian P8Is. whether it would be allowed/integrated to the Apaches is a question that needs to be answered. if both LCH and Apaches sport it, they can communicate.


Hmm, I had forgotten about the BEL datalink. Or maybe even the Israeli/Indian ODL?

I was referring to the DataLink II indeed.

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Re: LCH and other Helicopters Discussion Thread

Postby Rien » 10 Sep 2014 18:46

merlin wrote:So remains to be seen if Apache to Apache communication using US comm links can be easily changes to Apache to LCH using BEL DL/ODL.


In that context

DRDO to outsource SATCOM data-link for Rustom-II

So the Rustom 2 is using a new datalink that is two way. That is incompatible with the Apache's US data link. So the ppt giri of the Apache being able to control UAVS is a negative point against it. Only the Light Combat Helicopter, with desi data links can control our UAVs.

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Re: LCH and other Helicopters Discussion Thread

Postby member_28714 » 10 Sep 2014 18:49

Maybe we are buying the Apache's to cannibalize a few for technology. Its not that significant a number when you consider what the real requirement of our forces are.

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Re: LCH and other Helicopters Discussion Thread

Postby abhik » 10 Sep 2014 19:57

So the operators/pilots of the Apache will control Indian UAVs using Indian control mechanisms through an Indian datalink but this is somehow an advantage over the LCH and definitely not PPT-giri.

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Re: LCH and other Helicopters Discussion Thread

Postby koti » 10 Sep 2014 21:51

No abhik. I think we are missing a point here. The LCH is a new addition for IA/IAF. It has its place in the evolving doctrine of IA/IAF.
The Apache's IMO are strictly replacements for the Hinds in the heavy category.

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Re: LCH and other Helicopters Discussion Thread

Postby Picklu » 10 Sep 2014 22:45

Kotiji, the Q is, what capability Hind had as a heavy that needs apache as replacement and not lch? what mythical tank busting or CAS capability they had that lch can not be used as replacement for them? the soldier carrying capability is present in neither of the new options anyway. The heavy has to be replaced by a heavy is not a valid logic imo, we need to see capability of old one vs new options and both apache and lch are over-match, IMO, irrespective of weight class.

Any which way you cut it, apaches don't compute. I can understand chinooks as TINA but apache as either replacement or new capability is way too much of a solution looking for problem. The reasoning provided for apache will even suite death star to be bought by ginormously obscene amount of indian tax payer money.

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Re: LCH and other Helicopters Discussion Thread

Postby vishvak » 10 Sep 2014 23:03

abhik wrote:So the operators/pilots of the Apache will control Indian UAVs using Indian control mechanisms through an Indian datalink but this is somehow an advantage over the LCH and definitely not PPT-giri.

Is it not that the Apaches will be involved in a few RnD integration instead of currently available choppers. What is the need to mix it up when we are already paying good.

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Re: LCH and other Helicopters Discussion Thread

Postby abhik » 10 Sep 2014 23:06

koti wrote:No abhik. I think we are missing a point here. The LCH is a new addition for IA/IAF. It has its place in the evolving doctrine of IA/IAF.
The Apache's IMO are strictly replacements for the Hinds in the heavy category.

There was no such "heavy-light" doctrine before the Apache came into picture. Firstly the competition to replace the Hinds were not restricted to 'heavy' attack helicopters(LCH was probably not considered because it was too early in the development stage). Secondly the IAF has the Hind in service probably because it was the only attack helicopter available to it then i.e. there was no grand design. Today we have a grand total of what 22 attack helicopters? Compare this to the Americans who have over 800 Apaches in an army half our size. What we should be doing is standardising an indigenous solution and producing the hell out of the them like the Americans have.

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Re: LCH and other Helicopters Discussion Thread

Postby koti » 10 Sep 2014 23:12

Noted!
But how apt is it to compare LCH with a platform that carries a heavier payload, a 30 mm cannon and also the LongBow.
I can't think of anything else with out sounding like an import fanatic.

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Re: LCH and other Helicopters Discussion Thread

Postby shaun » 10 Sep 2014 23:59

the big Q is WHAT IS THE STATUS OF LCH ? when will the 3rd prototype fly ? is it coming out with weight reduction ? some posters here is comparing apache with LCH , a mature product with a prototype ! whether the apaches are needed in Indian context, what i feel is such few apaches will have very low contribution to any full scale war and there wont be any TOT for our advantage. so LCH needs to come out quick and in large numbers.

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Re: LCH and other Helicopters Discussion Thread

Postby Ranjani Brow » 11 Sep 2014 15:16

Image

Ka-52 :eek:

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Re: LCH and other Helicopters Discussion Thread

Postby Pratyush » 11 Sep 2014 16:19

Dude WTF???

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Re: LCH and other Helicopters Discussion Thread

Postby vic » 11 Sep 2014 16:52

i think that IAF should adopt SATCOM, DIRCM, towed decoys across the whole fleet so that we are not caught with our pants down in Kargill type situation again. I think there is sorely lacking sense of urgency for any these equipment.

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Re: LCH and other Helicopters Discussion Thread

Postby titash » 11 Sep 2014 18:33

Pratyush wrote:Dude WTF???


Let it be sirjee...seeing that pic, I can already feel the jihadi browning his shalwars :eek:

Unfortunately the LCH trades off armor & firepower for speed & altitude. As always, there are design trade offs and one can't have everything.

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Re: LCH and other Helicopters Discussion Thread

Postby member_23360 » 12 Sep 2014 05:06

Shaun wrote:the big Q is WHAT IS THE STATUS OF LCH ? when will the 3rd prototype fly ? is it coming out with weight reduction ? some posters here is comparing apache with LCH , a mature product with a prototype ! whether the apaches are needed in Indian context, what i feel is such few apaches will have very low contribution to any full scale war and there wont be any TOT for our advantage. so LCH needs to come out quick and in large numbers.

^^^^

1 Big push towards lahore supported by these Apaches, will bring paki's to their knees or can push them towards tact. nuke.

They can't stop t90 armour supported by these apache's.

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Re: LCH and other Helicopters Discussion Thread

Postby shaun » 12 Sep 2014 06:58

you didn't get my POV about apaches , few of these won't suffice in a full blown out war with porkis reason the chin factor will divide our resources. LCH being home grown can be in sufficient numbers. 22 apaches are meant to replace the ageing hinds and if AAC's order is sanctioned then the scenario you depicted may come true but with the combined might of IA , where t90s and apaches just playing their parts with other pieces of hardware. how are the present HIND deployed and for what role ?

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Re: LCH and other Helicopters Discussion Thread

Postby P Chitkara » 12 Sep 2014 10:10

Per wiki, the IA has a requirement of 114 LCHs. Going by the pattern of past acquisitions, one would expect the number to rise with time. So, within a decade of it's induction to IA, each of the strike corps may have a healthy number of LCHs - not the grand numbers, khan style though whose resources we in any case will not be able to match for decades to come.

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Re: LCH and other Helicopters Discussion Thread

Postby Indranil » 16 Sep 2014 01:25

First pictures of Rudra MkIII with the EO/IR Pod (underneath the chin) and IDAS systems, but without any weapons.

Image
Image

Best looking Dhruvs, in my opinion.

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Re: LCH and other Helicopters Discussion Thread

Postby Dennis » 16 Sep 2014 01:52

Are these Rudras?
Rudras should have the EO ball above the nose and weapons
I think they might be Dhruv MkIIIs.

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Re: LCH and other Helicopters Discussion Thread

Postby Indranil » 16 Sep 2014 02:13

I have come across many nomenclatures. So not sure. But I stick to Dhruv MkIII for base version without the IDAS and EO systems; Rudra MkIII for version with with the EO ball and IDAS only; and Rudra MkIV for the version with EO ball, IDAS and weapons.

Anyways, I forgot about this video I had seen many moons ago. Shows the wheeled version with the same arrangements.

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Re: LCH and other Helicopters Discussion Thread

Postby deejay » 16 Sep 2014 09:22

^^^ Stupid question may be - Wouldn't these systems be removable. So one configures as the mission profile requires? So basically, IMO, all helicopters may be weaponised to Rudra set up or 'weapons removed' to be converted in to Dhruv. The MK II, MK III etc would essentially be for greater capability fitment and improvements to cockpit, airframe, avionics, additional pods or newer weapons fitments.

This is how it is for the MI-8 / 17 family machines. Helps in not having dedicated machines for only dedicated roles. Thereby improving inter operability.

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Re: LCH and other Helicopters Discussion Thread

Postby merlin » 16 Sep 2014 10:38

Dhruv Mk1 - original one
Dhruv Mk2 - with Shakti engine
Dhruv Mk3 - with Shakti engine and glass cockpit
Dhruv Mk4 - aka Rudra

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Re: LCH and other Helicopters Discussion Thread

Postby tsarkar » 16 Sep 2014 15:38

http://indianarmy.nic.in/Site/FormTempl ... enkSU72A==
There are three types of ALH being used by Army Aviation –
Conventional ALH Mk - I
Glass cockpit ALH Mk -II (IADS)
Shakti engine ALH Mk –III

http://indianarmy.nic.in/Site/FormTempl ... acSchKMg==

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Re: LCH and other Helicopters Discussion Thread

Postby tsarkar » 16 Sep 2014 15:53

deejay wrote:^^^ Stupid question may be - Wouldn't these systems be removable. So one configures as the mission profile requires? So basically, IMO, all helicopters may be weaponised to Rudra set up or 'weapons removed' to be converted in to Dhruv. The MK II, MK III etc would essentially be for greater capability fitment and improvements to cockpit, airframe, avionics, additional pods or newer weapons fitments. This is how it is for the MI-8 / 17 family machines. Helps in not having dedicated machines for only dedicated roles. Thereby improving inter operability.


No.

Rudra carries sensors & guided weapons that Mi-17 doesn't. Mi-17 rocket attacks are unguided vis-à-vis Dhruv, and inefficient.

Rudra is differently wired and completely different under the skin than Dhruv.

Interoperability? Does it make sense for stripping something specialized & using them in a conventional role? Then why build something specialized in the first place?

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Re: LCH and other Helicopters Discussion Thread

Postby koti » 16 Sep 2014 19:10

tsarkar wrote:Interoperability? Does it make sense for stripping something specialized & using them in a conventional role? Then why build something specialized in the first place?

I too think it makes sense saab.
I see Dhruv/Rudra as multi role utility platform rather then a specialized one. Most of these machines will be stripped off their armaments and sensors for most of their lifetime IMO.

A weapon system integrated variant of the domestically built Dhruv helicopter, Rudra is designed to carry out both utility and attack missions, as well as offer close air support and protection to the ground forces in the battlefield.

Link

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Re: LCH and other Helicopters Discussion Thread

Postby sattili » 16 Sep 2014 19:41

koti wrote:I see Dhruv/Rudra as multi role utility platform rather then a specialized one. Most of these machines will be stripped off their armaments and sensors for most of their lifetime IMO.

Infact its the opposite - Rudra's primary role is armed support and has limited utility scope (due to weight and limited space availability). I guess it can at best pick up a wounded soldier or two rather than ferrying goods.

Both the link posted by tsarkar and the army recognition link by you talk about separate Rudra squadrons, there is no talk of stripping of armaments from Rudra and using them as utility helicopters. These are dedicated weponized platforms. This should not confused with the Mi-17s which have primary utility role and secondary armament role by way of attaching unguided rocket pods or machine guns when needed.

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Re: LCH and other Helicopters Discussion Thread

Postby koti » 16 Sep 2014 19:54

I kind of felt so too when I read about dedicated squadrons of Rudra. And these are attached to individual corps along with other types of heli squadrons.

But your point sounds more apt for LCH then Rudra. Having a huge number of specialized choppers is hard to afford for IA in my opinion and I thought that's why we even have a weaponized utility chopper requirement in the first place.

Can you give me any link about the troop capacity of Rudra? I was assuming it to be similar to that of MkIII when stripped off its armaments.


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Re: LCH and other Helicopters Discussion Thread

Postby rkhanna » 16 Sep 2014 20:59

^^^ and discussed to death :P

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Re: LCH and other Helicopters Discussion Thread

Postby sattili » 16 Sep 2014 21:02

koti wrote:But your point sounds more apt for LCH then Rudra. Having a huge number of specialized choppers is hard to afford for IA in my opinion and I thought that's why we even have a weaponized utility chopper requirement in the first place.

Can you give me any link about the troop capacity of Rudra? I was assuming it to be similar to that of MkIII when stripped off its armaments.

Conversion of Dhruv into Rudra cannot be done at field level, Rudra is a dedicated weaponized variant.

Mr. P. Soundara Rajan, Managing Director of HAL Helicopter Complex, stated that integration of multiple weapon systems simultaneously is a complicated task. “In this particular case it involved four major groups of systems and weapons, involving eight countries: Israel, France, Belgium, South Africa, Germany, Italy, USA and India. Nearly 23 kilometers of cables had been laid and hundreds of hours in flight and ground tests were carried out.” The Indian Army has already received considerable numbers of the Advanced Light Helicopter (ALH), most of it being Mk.IIIs which are formed into a number of utility helicopter squadrons, deployed in various operational areas in northern and eastern India, including at very high altitude bases in Ladakh. The Mk.IV Rudra will endow major strike power to formations on the western borders.

Source: http://defense-update.com/20130207_rudra-growing-its-claws.html#.VBhasJ26Y5s

I could not find any information about what is the cargo capacity of Rudra- however I found several opinions on other forums mentioning that Rudra can carry its own weapons and don't have any cargo capacity. Mark IV (Rudra) is not built as a armed utility helicopter, it is a dedicated armed platform. The reason for Rudra's existence could be surmised as below (from Wiki):
While flight testing the Light Combat Helicopter, a modified version of HAL Dhruv, the Indian Army came to the conclusion that without making any major modifications to the Dhruv air-frame, an armed variant can also be developed and delivered to the army quickly. This variant was named Rudra.

There were discussions about why LCH and Rudra exist together with so much overlap between them. But there was no discussion anywhere about stripping the weapons from Rudra and using it as regular utility helicopter.

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Re: LCH and other Helicopters Discussion Thread

Postby member_26622 » 16 Sep 2014 22:17

Rudra development is a rare occasion when Indian Army went for most bang for the buck. Armament aside, the logistics and support chain will be highly streamlined for Dhruv and Rudra >> Cost savings and more availability/uptime just through focus.

If LCH and Rudra armament have significant overlaps (which is likely) then that's winning twice in a row. LCH+RUDRA+DHRUV will be feared and envied combination indeed.

But this Apache acquisition will siphon away all $$$ savings > another white elephant purchase to keep us 'grounded'. Import lobby does work hard to kill all emerging buds of 'freedom'.

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Re: LCH and other Helicopters Discussion Thread

Postby koti » 16 Sep 2014 22:18

Thanks for the insight.
sattili wrote:While flight testing the Light Combat Helicopter, a modified version of HAL Dhruv, the Indian Army came to the conclusion that without making any major modifications to the Dhruv air-frame, an armed variant can also be developed and delivered to the army quickly. This variant was named Rudra.

Why would the army be interested in an armed variant of Dhruv when LCH was available?
Both are having similar MTOW and weapons. Even the EW suite seems to be the same.

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Re: LCH and other Helicopters Discussion Thread

Postby PratikDas » 16 Sep 2014 23:01

koti wrote:Why would the army be interested in an armed variant of Dhruv when LCH was available?
Both are having similar MTOW and weapons. Even the EW suite seems to be the same.

From Wiki again...
In September 2010, it was reported that the Dhruv's Integrated Dynamic System (IDS), which combines several key rotor control functions into a single module carrying the engine's power to the rotors,[8] was suffering from excessive wearing and was necessitating frequent replacement; as a consequence the cruising speed had been restricted to 250 km/h and high-altitude performance was lessened as well.[36] HAL contracted Italian aerospace firm Avio for consultancy purposes and they subsequently replicated production of the IDS in Italy in order to isolate the problem with the early testing of the Dhruv subsequently being criticised as "rushed".[36] In June 2011 HAL has reported that the issue had been resolved and not present in the Dhruv Mk III, a number of alterations both to the design and production had been made to improve the IDS. A programme of retrofitting the Mk I and Mk II was completed by June 2011.[37]

The answer could be in the bold portion. For now, the Dhruv is a better understood and more improved aircraft.

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Re: LCH and other Helicopters Discussion Thread

Postby koti » 17 Sep 2014 02:06

That is more circumstantial than technical Das Saab.
Platform aside, I am not sure where Dhruv and LCH have different operational doctrines going by sattili ji's assersion.

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Re: LCH and other Helicopters Discussion Thread

Postby John » 17 Sep 2014 04:04

The key for reason for acquiring AH-64D is longbow radar which would be a great asset and Apache could help direct LCH or other helos. But IMO there other things IA could have spent that money on like artillery, active protection system etc

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Re: LCH and other Helicopters Discussion Thread

Postby koti » 17 Sep 2014 04:33

True but not entirely.
Only a subset(12?) of the 22 on order will have Longbow.

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Re: LCH and other Helicopters Discussion Thread

Postby John » 17 Sep 2014 05:23

^ 12 radars for now additional ones can be procured.

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Re: LCH and other Helicopters Discussion Thread

Postby shaun » 17 Sep 2014 07:45

the reason behind having LCH and rudra , maybe IA thought , LCH will be under IAFs domain because of the spat that was going on that time and also IA thought it will be better and quick way to equip AAC , helping it to train , expand and come up with doctrine with a proven helo i.e. dhruv in its WSI form. LCH is still in testing phase and rudra already inducted.


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