Armoured Vehicles Discussion Thread

Gurinder P · Post by **Gurinder P** » 12 May 2011 15:44

sum wrote:
Considering it would be getting 2 T heavier after the upgrade , most likely this is due to ERA it might increase the ground pressure and reduce hp/ton for the tank.
Ah, well...why do i feel that this very reason will be seen more frequently in coming days in IA press reports?

You guys keep forgetting the 1500 hp engine that is part of upgrade. The current version is a 1400 hp unit from MTU

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 12 May 2011 15:51

No they are using the same 1400 hp engine , i think its turbocharged for 1500 hp like Mk1.

Sanku · Post by **Sanku** » 12 May 2011 17:00

sum wrote:
I missed this, can you please share the link to the story once again? Txs in advance.
Nag induction likely to be delayed

Thanks. This is rather bizarre, how did they get away with it? I would expect some one to shout blue murder.

sum · Post by **sum** » 12 May 2011 17:16

^^ Sanku-ji, so now you know that even passing IA field trial also isn't a criterion for IA accepting the "passed" product?

I see slim chance of Mk-II making it past IA's hoops, given that >1300 T-90s have already been ordered with their warts and all.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 12 May 2011 17:52

how many T90s are actually in use?

Yagnasri · Post by **Yagnasri** » 12 May 2011 19:24

What about the Armoured personal carriers? Any new things. All is quite after Abhay expariment?

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 12 May 2011 19:52

After the MK 2 passes all the trails, the IA will fail it for not being able to fly at mach 2 at 2 feet from the ground.

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 12 May 2011 20:35

Narayana Rao wrote:What about the Armoured personal carriers? Any new things. All is quite after Abhay expariment?

http://ajaishukla.blogspot.com/2010/08/ ... fence.html

suryag · Post by **suryag** » 12 May 2011 21:01

When it comes to DRDO products you guys missed the all important line in Juggi G ji's post

Jai Mata di

Only divine help can secure orders. Even in the current Ex.VijayeeBhava no Arjun, as if its name was not Arjun but KArna and was prevented because of lineage.

Once it passes trials we will see Lord Berwalji with 73 other defects coming up on this forum, his timing of heightened activity is a curious thing

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 12 May 2011 21:33

suryag wrote:<SNIP>Even in the current Ex.VijayeeBhava no Arjun, as if its name was not Arjun but Karna and was prevented because of lineage. <SNIP>

How about using some common sense before passing such gems as above? How do you know Arjun is not part of the exercise? Just because pictures of it has not emerged?

Or, it may simply be the case that formations involved in Ex. Vijay Bhave do not have Arjun MBT in their Orbat?

Please don't pass comments for the sake of it.

Gurinder P · Post by **Gurinder P** » 12 May 2011 23:48

In order to get some serious orders for the Arjun and the IA beaurocrats to give the damn green light without all the BS, Pakistan needs to beg America for M1A2's or other euro tanks that will make the IA armoured corps feel deflated with the 90's going up against depleted uranium shells.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 13 May 2011 00:27

The only way we can do that is by laws.. that is more specified by DPP.

suryag · Post by **suryag** » 13 May 2011 01:29

Yes possibly something on the lines of offsets, for every 3 t-90's purchased order an Arjun.

manum · Post by **manum** » 13 May 2011 02:03

rohitvats wrote:
suryag wrote:<SNIP>Even in the current Ex.VijayeeBhava no Arjun, as if its name was not Arjun but Karna and was prevented because of lineage. <SNIP>
How about using some common sense before passing such gems as above? How do you know Arjun is not part of the exercise? Just because pictures of it has not emerged?

Or, it may simply be the case that formations involved in Ex. Vijay Bhave do not have Arjun MBT in their Orbat?

Please don't pass comments for the sake of it.

http://livefist.blogspot.com/2011/05/wh ... armys.html

I think army needs a knock on the head...

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 13 May 2011 02:05

and why is that ?

manum · Post by **manum** » 13 May 2011 02:08

Rahul M wrote: and why is that ?

Isnt it the best opportunity to get to know arjun platform operating alongside T-72's and 90's...Wont it add to the experience and learning phase of arjun...

manum · Post by **manum** » 13 May 2011 02:29

I've been really thinking of filling an RTI and asking reasons of not ordering enough Arjuns...while ordering 1000 T90, which Russian army chief denounced as outdated and expensive...But then always thought I might be immature to do it.
But Army seems to be hard headed to help this platform succeed and required it to shoved down its throat...if its necessary, anyways they'll fight with whatever they have in the famous hard headed statement...

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 13 May 2011 02:46

manum wrote:<SNIP> http://livefist.blogspot.com/2011/05/wh ... armys.html

I think army needs a knock on the head...

I think it is you who needs a knock on your head along with posters which tend to see CT conspiracy theory in every nook and cranny and who drop any semblance of common sense while posting or pontificating.

First and foremost, why should be there be a question mark at all on Arjun being part (or not) of any wargame? IA conducts exercises as per its requirement and not to please and prove something to internet warriors like you. Just because sh*t head posted a question for the heck of it (and to incease eyeballs on his website), every one and his aunt is going bonkers. And this idiot does not understand that just because the exercise is being conducted in Jaisalmer area does not mean that Arjun (which are part of formation based in Jaisalmer) will also take part.

And btw, what is wrong in the explanation being given by the Corps Commander? Should the Western Army Commander ask for some Arjun tanks just to make people like you happy?

Get your facts clear first.

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 13 May 2011 02:48

manum wrote:
Rahul M wrote: and why is that ?
Isnt it the best opportunity to get to know arjun platform operating alongside T-72's and 90's...Wont it add to the experience and learning phase of arjun...

And how do you know they have already not done that? After all, each Armored Brigade with one regiment of Arjun tanks has other armored regiments equipped with T-72/T-55/T-90 as well.

manum · Post by **manum** » 13 May 2011 03:02

rohitvats wrote:
manum wrote:<SNIP> http://livefist.blogspot.com/2011/05/wh ... armys.html

I think army needs a knock on the head...
I think it is you who needs a knock on your head along with posters which tend to see CT conspiracy theory in every nook and cranny and who drop any semblance of common sense while posting or pontificating.

First and foremost, why should be there be a question mark at all on Arjun being part (or not) of any wargame? IA conducts exercises as per its requirement and not to please and prove something to internet warriors like you. Just because sh*t head posted a question for the heck of it (and to incease eyeballs on his website), every one and his aunt is going bonkers. And this idiot does not understand that just because the exercise is being conducted in Jaisalmer area does not mean that Arjun (which are part of formation based in Jaisalmer) will also take part.

And btw, what is wrong in the explanation being given by the Corps Commander? Should the Western Army Commander ask for some Arjun tanks just to make people like you happy?

Get your facts clear first.

More than facts, as much I see everyone is gunning for Arjun for a change...Look around you, I am also on the same side, but i cant help smelling fishes around me...Arjun deserves Army's attention, whatever reasons they provide.

They have ordered only 124 arjuns, and 1000 T90's...and they couldn't have made use of those 124 in this exercise, what are they keeping it for? Obviously till exercise doesnt happens at Arjun's location, they'll say arjun is not available here, what can we do...as they were avoiding Arjun trials, till it was forced down their throat...as Arjun makers were forced to dare the army...History speaks against the army wrt arjun, and nothing has changed since, except them ordering measly 124 of them and thats it...

if you keep Arjun in Low numbers, most of time it'll be not available.

I've no problem with corps commander reasons, he is doing his job...but army decision makers haven't done anything to prove people like me wrong...What was the problem if MBT was in exercise to make people like me happy, wont an extra step would have helped them too...
Onus is on them to prove they are sincere towards an excellent Indigenous effort, or they will be asked questions again and again, at every seemingly wrong step they take...you like it or not...

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 13 May 2011 03:14

^^^Dude, I think you're smoking something real potent here...please pass that around...at least that'll be of some help.Otherwise, the post above is BS. pure and simple. You have no idea what you're commenting on....but write you must...doesn't matter if do not know jack shit about the subject matter....carry on. you're doing a fine job.

manum · Post by **manum** » 13 May 2011 03:19

rohitvats wrote:^^^Dude, I think you're smoking something real potent here...please pass that around...at least that'll be of some help.Otherwise, the post above is BS. pure and simple. You have no idea what you're commenting on....but write you must...doesn't matter if do not know jack shit about the subject matter....carry on. you're doing a fine job.

Yeah the great mystery of non-committal army and its reasons...how would I know jack shit of subject matters, but I would love to know if you educate me about the great reasons you have. The territory you master.

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 13 May 2011 03:37

If all you can do is post BS and some half baked CT, and that too on a subject matter you have no idea of, then please be my guest. This is my last attempt to put out some reasoning - if you still don't get it,then you never will. Please continue with your tripe.

The exercise is being conducted by the Western Command of the Indian Army. Western Command will deploy assets from formations under its command for this exercise and validate some concepts and hone operational skills. Similarly, others commands and their sub-formations will be conducting their own exercises. The training/exercise season (or cycle) of IA has just started. Arjun tanks are presently with formations which are part of South-Western and Southern Command. Shiv Aroor, for all the claims of being defence correpsodent, does not know that 75th Armored Regiment is with a formation which is part of Southern and not South-Western Command (even though SW Command also has a Arjun Regiment).

As and when the Southern and SW Commands conduct their exercises, armored brigades, of which Arjun are part, will also take part in the exercise. If it assuages you hyper jingo spirits, remember that SW Command (which has one Arjun Regiment under X Corps), also commands the I Strike Corps. As and when I Corps gets into exercise mode, X Corps will be the Pivot Corps supporting the I Corps and Arjun will be part of any such maneuvers. For both XII Corps (under Souther Command) and X Corps (under SW Command), Arjun Regiments are part of important offensive formations.

D Roy · Post by **D Roy** » 13 May 2011 03:50

Yes its positioning in the SWAC does show a certain amount of confidence ... especially in the desert. And mind you we are dealing with a desert which is very different from the firm soil of the Sahara. Low ground pressure does help here.

Folks are definitely reading too much into this Arjun exercise thingy...

of course a future exercise replete with pictures of Arjuns will do no harm to India's PR effort either.

and just the way the dhruv is now making it regularly to photo ops, the Arjun will too I guess.

manum · Post by **manum** » 13 May 2011 04:00

rohitvats wrote:........ Arjun tanks are presently with formations which are part of South-Western and Southern Command. Shiv Aroor, for all the claims of being defence correpsodent, does not know that 75th Armored Regiment is with a formation which is part of Southern and not South-Western Command (even though SW Command also has a Arjun Regiment).

As and when the Southern and SW Commands conduct their exercises, armored brigades, of which Arjun are part, will also take part in the exercise. If it assuages you hyper jingo spirits, remember that SW Command (which has one Arjun Regiment under X Corps), also commands the I Strike Corps. As and when I Corps gets into exercise mode, X Corps will be the Pivot Corps supporting the I Corps and Arjun will be part of any such maneuvers. For both XII Corps (under Souther Command) and X Corps (under SW Command), Arjun Regiments are part of important offensive formations.

The Arjun regiment (75th Armoured) comes under the Army's South-Western Command, headquartered in Jaipur, a theatre formation that apparently had nothing to do with the current exercise in terms of asset contributions. The Vijayee Bhava exercise currently deploys a large number of T-90 and T-72 tanks from regiments under the Western Command.

I put the question on Thursday afternoon to the Army's Western Commander Lt Gen Shankar Ghosh, under whose command (HQ: Chandimandir) the exercise is being conducted. He said, "It's very simple. I don't have any Arjuns at Western Command. I cannot use what I do not have under me."

http://livefist.blogspot.com/2011/05/wh ... armys.html

Well there can be more questioning...but I'll stop here, as I'll admit I am handicapped in my data to get clearer.

Craig Alpert · Post by **Craig Alpert** » 13 May 2011 04:14

Sorry folks, but JUST COULD NOT RESIST! courtesy LiveFist!

Naidu · Post by **Naidu** » 13 May 2011 04:52

^ Bhat is this CHANGAGE? What does it mean? Thx.

D Roy · Post by **D Roy** » 13 May 2011 05:01

It's just 'Changez' i.e Genghis spelt that way.

Naidu · Post by **Naidu** » 13 May 2011 05:24

So it's a nickname the crew has given their tank? Nice.

Gurinder P · Post by **Gurinder P** » 13 May 2011 05:47

It almost looks like a Mongol warrior too.

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 13 May 2011 08:52

manum wrote:
Rahul M wrote: and why is that ?
Isnt it the best opportunity to get to know arjun platform operating alongside T-72's and 90's...Wont it add to the experience and learning phase of arjun...

do you really understand what rohit said and livefist confirmed ?

the exercise is being done by WC, II strike corps in particular. they CANNOT just bring in any weapon system they like, an exercise is meant to test battle readiness in realistic scenarios and that means they fight with what they actually have in their roster.

try to make sure that your criticism is valid and not made unjustly.

manum · Post by **manum** » 13 May 2011 09:28

yup I am trying best to understand it...that is why I am here...growth of my understanding will happen through such discussions in due course of time...and I thank Rohit and you to be vigorous in replies...there is no short cut to it.

might take a year or so of my lingering around and understanding the matter more intently...

But I might criticize again, If I felt so strongly, but not without better info than last...

mikehurst · Post by **mikehurst** » 13 May 2011 09:36

suryag wrote:Yes possibly something on the lines of offsets, for every 3 t-90's purchased order an Arjun.

SaiK wrote:The only way we can do that is by laws.. that is more specified by DPP.

Well offset is an investment to be made by the foreign supplier of armaments. So if offsets are applied as per your suggestions it would mean that the Russian tank maker has to purchase 1 Arjun for every 3 T-90 it sells to India or the equivalent percentage of offsets. Would seem a unlikely process.

The Arjun has to stand on it own, tying its fortunes to the T-90 would only hinder its growth. The T-90 is not the hurdle here.

Do we have an idea what are the offset requirements for the T-90 purchase, what are the components or manufacturers in India who have benefited and what are the products being offered for fulfilling this offset requirement by the Russians.

suryag · Post by **suryag** » 13 May 2011 09:38

MikeHurst ji I was just giving an example, t-90 can be replaced with Sarath/BMP ICV and Arjun can be replaced with Abhay, Nag and Kornet(may not be a right match) hope you get the drift

d_berwal · Post by **d_berwal** » 13 May 2011 11:04

suryag wrote: Only divine help can secure orders. Even in the current Ex.VijayeeBhava no Arjun, as if its name was not Arjun but KArna and was prevented because of lineage.

Once it passes trials we will see Lord Berwalji with 73 other defects coming up on this forum, his timing of heightened activity is a curious thing

actually very curious thing

,,,

Ex.VijayeeBhava does not have Arjuns taking part because they are not part of the formation doing the Ex.

Karna was never prevented, its still under consideration but

it never moved away from R&D phase of programme. It is still under D&M phase. There are some serious difficulties with that upgrade path of T-72, unless some ingenious solution is found. T-72 upgrade with Arjun Turret needs a redesign of turret, its not a plug and play solution as most think.

Sanku · Post by **Sanku** » 13 May 2011 11:35

sum wrote:^^ Sanku-ji, so now you know that even passing IA field trial also isn't a criterion for IA accepting the "passed" product?

Oh no, no need to extrapolate so much please. Things happen and each must be considered on case to case basis.

I see slim chance of Mk-II making it past IA's hoops, given that >1300 T-90s have already been ordered with their warts and all.

But that is always the plan dude, 50:50. 3000 of each "type". They DO NOT come at expense of other.

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 13 May 2011 11:38

Guys,

Arjun can only be excercised if the formation equiped with it is a part of the ex. However in a situation where the orders have been capped at 248 and MK2 as follow on. it is a bit premature to accept that Arjun will be a part of regular formation excersise. AS at its best it will not equip more then 12 to 15 % of the armour formations before the FMBT comes on line.

That being the case the IA will excersise with what it has, however much we wish for Arjun.

Jaeger · Post by **Jaeger** » 13 May 2011 12:17

X-post from Pic. Thread, WRT to T-55s...

Rahul M wrote:they were retained as support in inf div IIRC.

OK so if they're with Inf., are they actually being used as 'Infantry Tanks' as defined in 30s-40s military terminology? Ref: Infantry Tank

If I'm not mistaken, our inf. divs. don't use APCs of any kind: neither BMPs nor wheeled APCs - so can someone illuminate the standard assault tactics using tanks and dismounted infantry? Are there any plans to equip these divs with APCs in any form? Any answers will be appreciated...

chackojoseph · Post by **chackojoseph** » 13 May 2011 12:41

Newer technologies were tested as per the Mod release. Arjun could have been a part of the tests.

D Roy · Post by **D Roy** » 13 May 2011 12:51

CJ,

those newer technologies are all in the realm of C4ISR.

Gentlemen,

I just don't see how Arjun Mk 2 production will stop at 124 regardless of what it seems now. Any T-72 upgrade path is not a viable proposition. I don't think it will be possible for the Army to justify spending billions on a useless upgrade to a useless tank.

i am sure circa 2014 we'll start seeing batch production of Arjun Mk2s .