Armoured Vehicles Discussion Thread

Rahul.ka · Post by **Rahul.ka** » 23 Jul 2011 23:23

http://img696.imageshack.us/img696/9792/arjunmkii.jpg

khukri · Post by **khukri** » 23 Jul 2011 23:41

On popular demand and Singhaji's order, i have been authorised to release advance information on the latest development in mechanised infantry transportation system.
1. this is the basic version for mechanised infantry: http://www.ohgizmo.com/2006/04/23/offro ... ank-chair/
2. This is the Special Forces version: http://elitechoice.org/2008/01/09/15000 ... pecial-rue.[/quote]

Are you taking orders, where do I sign up?

pralay · Post by **pralay** » 25 Jul 2011 09:21

India conducts trials on its Arjun MBT MK-II

The defence establishment of the country will be keeping a close watch as India’s Main Battle Tank Arjun Mark II, which can fire missiles to destroy long range targets, goes through trials in the dessert environs of Pokharan.

The pre-induction trials, which started Saturday, are about the efficacy of scientific and technological up gradation of features of Arjun II, which is under developmental phase.

“Such trials will be undertaken quite frequently till the time it is handed over to the Army,” said Col SD Goswami, Defence spokesperson.

Weighing 62 tonnes each, the Army has placed an order for 124 such tanks at a cost of Rs 5,000 crore.

DRDO is working on Arjun Mark II at the CVRDE (Combat Vehicles Research & Development Establishment) with an immediate task of demonstrating it to the user and ensure the delivery of the first batch comprising 30 tanks by 2013-14.

One of the vital features of the tank is that a missile can be fired from it to destroy long range targets and bring down helicopters. It is also equipped with a panoramic night vision.

The tank will also have an automatic target tracking system, which will add to accuracy while firing on a moving

Shrinivasan · Post by **Shrinivasan** » 25 Jul 2011 09:34

sameer_shelavale wrote:India conducts trials on its Arjun MBT MK-II
The pre-induction trials, which started Saturday, are about the efficacy of scientific and technological up gradation of features of Arjun II, which is under developmental phase.
One of the vital features of the tank is that a missile can be fired from it to destroy long range targets and bring down helicopters. It is also equipped with a panoramic night vision.

What does Pre-Induction trials mean?Has CVRDE built couple of tanks and is testing out along with the Army? In June we were told that "Testing has started" .. Any Paanwala information on this?

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 25 Jul 2011 09:43

my guess would be the new Mk2 chassis and turret is not yet made, but they are testing rest of new features using a couple of modified Mk1 vehicles....the Mk1 for instance had already demoed lahat, new comms gear/BMS, commander CITV, self protection sensors etc can all be tested out using Mk1.

even the new engine and gearbox can be tried on a Mk1 as the engine bay volume likely is the same for Mk2.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 25 Jul 2011 09:47

I wonder if instead of a manned turret on FICV, a unmanned turret with a 20mm cannon firing a mix of automatically fed rounds (HE, KE, anti-helicopter) and a 0.50cal HMG, is the way to go? as it is the sdre thin turrets of ICVs hardly afford any extra advantage of protection vs sitting inside the hull.

the saving on turret can be used to improve the hull and top armour.

sometimes even a robotech type twin 20mm cannon loadout can be tried for a dedicated fire support/AAA vehicle, using the space in back for extra ammo and a small phased array radar atop middle of turret...a kind of next gen ZSU-23-2 ... our 23-4 must be getting long in the tooth by now.

pralay · Post by **pralay** » 25 Jul 2011 10:15

Singha wrote:my guess would be the new Mk2 chassis and turret is not yet made, but they are testing rest of new features using a couple of modified Mk1 vehicles.....

I agree with you singha ji.
Turret design is very less likely to be changed so quickly. but we may see add-on ERA(or NERA) plates.
Now we can expect the tank to look more decorated with gadgets

rajanb · Post by **rajanb** » 25 Jul 2011 11:46

What does Pre-Induction trials mean?Has CVRDE built couple of tanks and is testing out along with the Army? In June we were told that "Testing has started" .. Any Paanwala information on this?

These are systems trials. The user trials will be done mid 2012.

Shrinivasan · Post by **Shrinivasan** » 26 Jul 2011 01:59

^^^ Thanks Rajan and Singha, Hopefully IA raises all it queries now and gets it resolved soon. The User trials should literally be a trials to give the users some hands on experience before actual induction and not a "Trial of fire" or a "Trial and error" process stretching for years.

AdityaM · Post by **AdityaM** » 26 Jul 2011 02:07

How are these trials different from the T90 faceoff test? a trial after trial

nachiket · Post by **nachiket** » 26 Jul 2011 02:11

AdityaM wrote:How are these trials different from the T90 faceoff test? a trial after trial

These trials are for the MkII version. The T-90 faced off against the MkI (and still came out second best)

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 26 Jul 2011 08:06

with IMI involvement in Mk2, we can expect Lahat integration, good countermeasures, CITV and BMS for sure.
with any luck, the much desired "sloping turret" either Leo2A5+ or Merkava style can be worked out..might even increase some interior room along the sides for electronics and other kit.
and ofcourse merkava style LCD panels and rear parking cameras would be good for psyops if nothing else

electrically charged armour to defeat RPG/LAW warheads is another area to explore, if the simpler rod grating is not desired....
a tidy remote weapon station for the commander with day/night optics is a must to prevent being targeted by sniper or wounded by shrapnel...need not be as fancy as the M1 TUSK which likely costs a bomb and has 200 features and hotlink to f22 and b2.

Shrinivasan · Post by **Shrinivasan** » 26 Jul 2011 10:39

Singha, I wonder why Desh never attempted a remote weapons station for any platform, we could have them in MBTs, APC/ICVs, ISCG Patrol crafts, ICG Cutters, IN Patrol Boats etc. The operator could shoot from an armoured enclosure and fire away based on inputs from different sources.

Shrinivasan · Post by **Shrinivasan** » 26 Jul 2011 10:42

Singha wrote:with IMI involvement in Mk2, we can expect Lahat integration, good countermeasures, CITV and BMS for sure.
with any luck, the much desired "sloping turret" either Leo2A5+ or Merkava style can be worked out..might even increase some interior room along the sides for electronics and other kit.
and ofcourse merkava style LCD panels and rear parking cameras would be good for psyops if nothing else
electrically charged armour to defeat RPG/LAW warheads is another area to explore, if the simpler rod grating is not desired....
a tidy remote weapon station for the commander with day/night optics is a must to prevent being targeted by sniper or wounded by shrapnel...need not be as fancy as the M1 TUSK which likely costs a bomb and has 200 features and hotlink to f22 and b2.

Mk2 has Lahat (demoed even in MK1), many of these other bells & whistles have to wait for MK3 (if there is one) or FMBT (if there is one). My bet would be, Desh would go for MK2, MK3 and so on for a decade or more and then only Army would finalize on the FMBT. Induction might take some more years.

khukri · Post by **khukri** » 26 Jul 2011 15:07

^^^
actually these "bells and whistles" are scheduled for Mk II

http://defenceforumindia.com/indian-arm ... nents.html

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 26 Jul 2011 15:16

aren't. that's BS news.

Shrinivasan · Post by **Shrinivasan** » 26 Jul 2011 15:22

khukri wrote:^^^
actually these "bells and whistles" are scheduled for Mk II
http://defenceforumindia.com/indian-arm ... nents.html

Check whom you are quoting? is it reliable...
The following are getting added in MK2
1) Battle Field Management System (BFMS)
2) Arjun MBT will feature an “Auto Tracker.” - not confirmed
3) Defensive aid like Shotra system for Arjun Tank is getting developed.
4) An 81mm Anti-laser and Anti-thermal Screening Smoke Grenade is also going to be featured.
5) The Lahat missile’s laser designator module will be integrated into fire control computer.
Most importantly There will not be any revolutionary physical changes on the Arjun MBT platform.

I summarized from an article by our beloved CJ. I referred to the LCD panels and rear parking cameras, electrically charged armour to defeat RPG/LAW warheads, remote weapon station for the commander with day/night optics as bells and whistles.

the Idea in Mk-II is to quickly fix some of the easy items, achieve some low hanging fruits and secure some more orders (My Opinion). IMHO, it is a compromise for both IA and DRDO (My Opinion), the imperative is to get sufficient quantities into play (Again My Opinion).

ince, no GSQR exists for this, nothing is concrete, Jingos are making a list based on infrequent statements from DRDO / CVRDE etc.

Shrinivasan · Post by **Shrinivasan** » 26 Jul 2011 15:22

Rahul M wrote:aren't. that's BS news.

Rahul Khukri didn't know PS == BS

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 26 Jul 2011 15:36

boss, could you not make consecutive posts ? you can say the same thing in the earlier post.
it increases thread page unnecessarily.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 28 Jul 2011 01:06

http://www.bharatrakshak.com/NEWS/newsr ... wsid=14988
The upgraded version of Arjun, which has been fitted with 58 tonne German engine, was inducted in the Indian Army over a year ago.

Now, it is time BR Webmasters give serious thoughts into linking such news.

--

Alright... where is the pic?

VikB · Post by **VikB** » 28 Jul 2011 10:57

Wasnt the engine this time supposed to be Indian?
though I wonder who in India has the capability to manufacture own engine. I guess there was talk of Cummins bringing the 800 HP + engine to India. Any one has connected-dots view?

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 28 Jul 2011 20:02

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=otZw9_1n ... ion_723766

what do armour gurus think of the german army Fennek from KMW as a wheeled light recce vehicle?..this is something we sorely lack unless you consider the jonga as the equivalent in the IA!

looks way better to me than the crapware hummer (with hajji armour) kind of rice n fish shack vehicles.

remote weapon station , raisable optronic mast upto 13ft, BMS to transfer target data, full NBC protection, full x-country capabilities, 1000km range, 110kmph top speed, crisp and effective looking german style controls, run flat tires with monitoring and adjustment system, rear camera ...

manum · Post by **manum** » 28 Jul 2011 20:26

I think looking at Fennek with a amateurish observation...It is the go between the hummer class and bigger class which are equipped to directly go to war...
Hummer is more of a military police, Fennek can be used as lone wolf scout, which is self sufficient to defend and run away...They both have their own role...I guess Fennek came out after realizing where hummer type is deficient and can not be improved by simply upgrading the armer.

added later
another thing is that Fennek can not really carry too many persons in it...but it can fill a large amount of support for a crew of 3-4, whereas hummer is moreover a personnel carrying vehicle in fringe area of combat, not in midst of it, so there is tactical divergence between the two vehicles...I might be wrong though.

Surya · Post by **Surya** » 28 Jul 2011 23:19

beautiful machine

one reason why german recce troops frequently manage to get around their opposition during NATO exercises.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 29 Jul 2011 03:42

Man, I saw that vid about the Fennec and fell in infatuation with it.

Germany is to armor what India is to spirituality

negi · Post by **negi** » 29 Jul 2011 03:46

Mechanical engineering boss.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 29 Jul 2011 04:01

Negi, oucchhhh!! You are so right, as usual.

Man, I am in luvvvvv with Germany. They have these set ups where they can get diploma (in Indian eqvt) get hands on experience, set up their own compnay etc and provide excellent stuff what it takes a SME in India to give. Amazing man...
Thales, EADS hold "Open Days" for SMEs to share their ideas..

Panzer IV/Leopard/TigerI and II/ Leopard 1, 2- A4,A5,6,7- "bows in respect to German armour"

I know Nazis and all- thats a huge black mark, but man these guys defined armour warfare...
German tank aces
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8oG1LBNPDxo
Michael Wittmann
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nyu1r70VVb0

Instead of depending on Russia for T-xx, the Germans make Leopard. May my country understand what Arjuns are. Or Karans

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 29 Jul 2011 04:09

Israel had Israel Tal for Merkava....in India, the local guys have to jump through hoops for support..

Panther had weak armour, exposed tanks (flammability) in order to be the German equivalent to T-34, yet even at wartime (zero margin for error), less than a tenth of the criticism directed at Indian efforts.

Wait for the day, Indian cavalry decides power resides w/in India, not Russia

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 29 Jul 2011 06:13

not just fennec but their other vehicles like boxer and dingo are pretty smooth looking too. I find their fleet to be the best looking one among the EU part of nato.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kxO1cho97jY
just look at the rafaleish interior of the boxer!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nBDKBgZf ... re=related

these people have a natural talent for steel beasts the way french have a talent for winemaking and maths.

from the dingo video note how they use the gepard 2x AA vehicle as a camp protection asset - I guess its EO system works for ground targets too...and those AA cannons can likely shred any faithfools trying to creep up out to a range of around 4km.

Khalsa · Post by **Khalsa** » 29 Jul 2011 15:24

Pictures of the Arjun Mk II Version are badly needed to quench the undying thirst this man

Surya · Post by **Surya** » 29 Jul 2011 16:15

Its not just designing and building the Germans are good - even the maintenance

I have gone past many a German depot (bus, electric company) and nary a oil spot on sight.

Don't mentione the Boxer

Rohit and I might start crying.

Sigh .. the dream of our infantry in a long line of wheeled IFVs

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 29 Jul 2011 16:34

^^^

This is a dream that even I have. To an extent that I have told my kompani that using the ingeneering background that they have. They can easily build an 8x8 APC. But they are content with their share of the farming tools market.

The IA in the absence of a domestic product will pick up strikers onlee.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 01 Aug 2011 05:01

not sure on the pic.. there are many pics that are floating around resemnling t90s to japanese type 10 tanks look alike for arjun mk2. it must the works of pakis.

imho, it should not be any diff looking other than this one
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-g6jDhOXspGQ/T ... un+Mk1.jpg

S_Prasad · Post by **S_Prasad** » 01 Aug 2011 07:04

SaiK wrote:not sure on the pic.. there are many pics that are floating around resemnling t90s to japanese type 10 tanks look alike for arjun mk2. it must the works of pakis.

imho, it should not be any diff looking other than this one
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-g6jDhOXspGQ/T ... un+Mk1.jpg

If you observe the wheels of the two tanks parked next to one another are different although both of them are Arjun.
Also the naming convention seems to be different (P vs CV).
Can some one throw some light on this.

Gurinder P · Post by **Gurinder P** » 01 Aug 2011 07:06

^^rumours are floating around stating that Israel is helping in redesigning the turret.

uddu · Post by **uddu** » 01 Aug 2011 07:11

Looks like the Tank-Ex.
Now the latest news on Arjun
http://zeenews.india.com/news/nation/tr ... 23301.html
the Mark-II versions of the tanks would have more than 90 modifications in its systems.
Special attention is being paid to the chassis of the tanks to give it speed and extra manoeuvrability over all the terrains.
Compared to the Mark-I variant, the tanks would have an enhanced Auxiliary Power Unit (APU) with a capacity of 8.5 kilowatt, digital control harness, Advanced Land Navigation Systems (ALNS) and Advanced Commander Panaromic Sight (ACPS).
http://tv.vtc.vn/594-295797/ban-ban-tin ... n-mkii.htm

uddu · Post by **uddu** » 01 Aug 2011 07:18

CV 402 is Tank-EX

May be a nice replacement for T-72's in Vietnamese Army.
It's time that we provide this tank as a replacement for T-72's for those armies that still use soviet doctrine of armored warfare. A tank that's light and cheap but with the protection and firepower of Arjun.

chackojoseph · Post by **chackojoseph** » 01 Aug 2011 07:52

Gurinder P wrote:^^rumours are floating around stating that Israel is helping in redesigning the turret.

Every project has consultants. Even your building has been built with consultants, builders, Engineers etc.

Gurinder P · Post by **Gurinder P** » 01 Aug 2011 08:05

chackojoseph wrote:
Gurinder P wrote:^^rumours are floating around stating that Israel is helping in redesigning the turret.
Every project has consultants. Even your building has been built with consultants, builders, Engineers etc.

My response was to Saik who said that the tank shouldn't look different than the Mk.I.
It had nothing to do with consultants or anything

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 01 Aug 2011 08:57

Those Fennek/Dingo/Boxer vids are nice - esp Fennek.

Question is - can they perform from +50 deg C to -30 deg C. If a vehicle is built/released from a store in say Chennai or Pune - could it be sent to either Rajasthan or Leh with no modifications? If a sudden emergency crops in in the Leh region - would the vehicles be transportable from Rajasthan to Leh without modification?

If lubricants have to be changed for operation in 40 deg plus temps as opposed to minus 10 deg, how long does the operation take? Would the airconditioning system need modification for this sort of variation? For a NATO country the vehicle is taken as a "deployment" to an area such as Iraq or Afghanistan where the local weather conditions are taken into account and the vehicle readied. But India has so many geographic regions.

Those beautiful sensors - what about LRUs for them? Would they be standard off the shelf products or custom built by Zinggbingockzeichswerken GMBH for the German army making it necessary to outsource to them and them alone.