Armoured Vehicles Discussion Thread

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 17 May 2010 21:24

chackojoseph wrote:Guys before you will mud sling. Arjun Tank cannot be ordered in a single go. It is a new equipment and it will take familirisation. so, the orders "could" be in increments and the tech + design will be tweaked. So, I urge you not to discuss which is not required.

I am using words like "could" , because other than upperwallah, no one knows what will happen tomorrow.

I sincerely hope and wish and pray that this is the case.
Amen.Amen.Amen.

Mark Walpole · Post by **Mark Walpole** » 17 May 2010 21:53

Just a quick question..
Can anyone tell me approximate figures for the pressure inside the barrel of a t90 or even an arjun..also when we mention 120mm or 125 mm are we talking about barrel length or its caliber??
Thanx

MS

putnanja · Post by **putnanja** » 17 May 2010 21:58

rohitvats wrote:The numbers ordered (124) factors 17 tanks extra per regiment as reserves. Each Armored Regiment has 45 tanks. And an Armored Division has 6 Armored Regiments - that makes it 270 tanks. What IA has ordered is tanks for 4 Armored Regiments. My guess is that they'll convert the 140 (I) Armored Brigade into Arjun Brigade. It already has the 75th Armored Regiment - balance two can have these new tanks. Makes sense from logistics perspective. That leaves one extra Arjun Regiment.

What tanks does the other regiments of the 140(I) brigade operate? T-72s?

tejas · Post by **tejas** » 17 May 2010 22:49

http://www.domain-b.com/defence/land/in ... nks_2.html

Look at the second to the last paragraph on page two. When all the extras are added in the Tin Can-90 actually costs MORE than the Arjun despite being inferior to it in every quantifiable parameter. Once the engine, tarasmission and FCS are made in India along with economies of scale the price of the Arjun should also drop dramatically.

If Avadi can't keep up, rope in TATA, L&T or Mahindras now with substantial orders so infrastructure can be built and hopefully big numbers of Arjun mk II delivered in 3-4 years. Anyway you slice it, the IA comes up smelling like rotten eggs in this deal.

Once again, this deal is orders of magnitude greater in sleaze than Bofors. 248 vs 1600 gimme a very large break!!

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 17 May 2010 22:51

putnanja wrote:
rohitvats wrote:The numbers ordered (124) factors 17 tanks extra per regiment as reserves. Each Armored Regiment has 45 tanks. And an Armored Division has 6 Armored Regiments - that makes it 270 tanks. What IA has ordered is tanks for 4 Armored Regiments. My guess is that they'll convert the 140 (I) Armored Brigade into Arjun Brigade. It already has the 75th Armored Regiment - balance two can have these new tanks. Makes sense from logistics perspective. That leaves one extra Arjun Regiment.
What tanks does the other regiments of the 140(I) brigade operate? T-72s?

No idea, sirji. That ^^^ was just a guessestimate...However, either the existing regiments can be converted to Arjuns (in case they are with older tanks which are due for replacement) or other regiments can be brought in which are due for conversion.

RoyG · Post by **RoyG** » 17 May 2010 23:19

Can we on BR create mass awareness about Arjun?

How about a petition, facebook group, youtube?

Vivek K · Post by **Vivek K** » 18 May 2010 00:27

Based on what Tejas has pointed out, the acquisition must be probed on a) why the Army tried to mislead the public by claiming that the T-90 was only about a third of the Arjun in cost terms? b) Why the Army persisted with ordering follow on numbers when a local, superior product that would be cheaper than the import? c) Who all were party to this decision and investigation of their assets in proportion to known sources of income.

Sanku · Post by **Sanku** » 18 May 2010 00:42

Vivek K wrote:Based on what Tejas has pointed out, the acquisition must be probed on a) why the Army tried to mislead the public by claiming that the T-90 was only about a third of the Arjun in cost terms? b) Why the Army persisted with ordering follow on numbers when a local, superior product that would be cheaper than the import? c) Who all were party to this decision and investigation of their assets in proportion to known sources of income.

Well despite being educated on the correct items on various parts it is truly sad that some people still resort to low level mud slingling on IA based on complete falsehood.

Anyway there already exists a probe in Arjun saga and its all documented, too bad it doesnt show the mud on IA as some people would sorely like.

Misraji · Post by **Misraji** » 18 May 2010 00:51

Where is the official report on the Arjun T-90 tussle?? Buried deep in the testing range, I suppose

Bloody hell. This is history all over again. IA intends to keep Arjun in pipeline only.
I wouldn't be surprised if we see another 1000 tank T-90 order quoting obsoleteness, compatibility, sheer aura and what not.

Enough is enough. Its time DGMF's head rolled for this mess . If the Army doesn't have the balls to do it, send him over and we will take care of it....

.
I don't know whats worse. The Army or its puppets.

~Ashish.

nikhil_p · Post by **nikhil_p** » 18 May 2010 00:59

All of us are going ballistic about the 'only 124 order'. Can we all please focus on some important points...
1) DRDO gets some more time to work on the Mk2.
2) If not for this order AVADI would have run out of work and the infra would have been idle till the Mk2 was tested and certified.

There are also some basic shortcomings in the current version that needs to be worked on...
1) There is a distinct lack of sloped armour (almost all the new tanks - Merkava, M1A2, Leclerc, Leopard2, chally have sloped armour) which is essential to counteract KE rounds.
2) The weight of the tank is to be reduced and dimensions also.
Also, the support logistics required for this tank will take time

More importantly....

One Arjun is better than 4 T72's!!!

RAHUL!!!!

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 18 May 2010 01:05

high profile ?!

Paul · Post by **Paul** » 18 May 2010 01:14

BTW....they may also need to order extra railway wagons to carry the Arjun to Rajasthan.

Secondly, what about tank transporters, will the current ones suffice to carry these 60T behemoths across western India.

Sanku · Post by **Sanku** » 18 May 2010 01:15

Misraji wrote: I wouldn't be surprised if we see another 1000 tank T-90 order quoting obsoleteness, compatibility, sheer aura and what not.
.

And if you dont then what? Whats your time frame for another 1000 T 90 order? (considering that only 600 of the 1600 tanks are delivered right now and the current order is expected to run till 2020 at least?)

If you dont will you come on the forum and say "I am a person who indulged in pointless mudslinging against IA despite being told exactly how I was wrong I wanted to keep at it for some reason?"

Sanku · Post by **Sanku** » 18 May 2010 01:19

The motto of this thread seems to be why understand if you can rant

Since people are still flogging the dead horse of numbers remember just yesterday it was predicted that GoI is not going to leave the production line empty it was obvious that there was going to be a follow on order.

Now ONCE again

1647 tanks vs 124 tanks? Not quite. Lets look at the rate of intake -- whats the rate of intake of T 90s per year? Around 100 best case, practically including the knocked down kits et al, its more like 50-60 per year. It compares with what Arjun line is supposed to do, of 50 per year. So its not that drastic difference.
The difference comes from
1) Early availability of T 90 (in 2000) -- thus longer tenure
2) Available from Russia in addition to Avadi

An external order makes more sense to make in one shot (since you negotiate for tech transfer etc) in case of Indian purchase more flexibility in terms of order schedule is present.

As Arjun production issues and Mk II etc become further streamlined, I expect same rate of induction and eventual similar numbers (a wish a view expressed in at least two parliamentary committee reports by MoD)

Cain Marko · Post by **Cain Marko** » 18 May 2010 01:28

Hmm 124 more. Quite frankly I was hoping 500 or so. but still, 124 is not too bad....it'll take Avadi a while to roll out the current order - 1 year or so, and then probly 2-3 years for the remaining 124, all in all, this gives the IA about 3 years for familiarization.

The real crunch time will come then - will the IA order a massive amount or start looking for flying saucers elsewhere?

CM.

nachiket · Post by **nachiket** » 18 May 2010 01:39

nikhil_p wrote: 2) The weight of the tank is to be reduced and dimensions also.
Also, the support logistics required for this tank will take time

Why? The Arjun is heavy because it is more heavily armoured than the tin cans which gives the crew a lot more protection. The only weight reduction that can occur is if the DRDO manages to develop a lighter 1500hp engine or we manage to beg/borrow/steal the new 1500hp Leopard engine from the Germans. And that would not be a significant reduction, neither is one needed.

And you cannot reduce the dimensions of the tank without redesigning the whole thing.

The Arjun does need a few upgrades like a BMS, Commander's Independent Thermal sight, APS, etc. which can be incorporated in the Mk2. Please don't rehash the old "big/heavy" argument. It is a red herring. The weight and dimensions are as per the Army's GSQRs.

nikhil_p · Post by **nikhil_p** » 18 May 2010 01:57

nachiket wrote:
nikhil_p wrote: 2) The weight of the tank is to be reduced and dimensions also.
Also, the support logistics required for this tank will take time

Why? The Arjun is heavy because it is more heavily armoured than the tin cans which gives the crew a lot more protection. The only weight reduction that can occur is if the DRDO manages to develop a lighter 1500hp engine or we manage to beg/borrow/steal the new 1500hp Leopard engine from the Germans. And that would not be a significant reduction, neither is one needed.

And you cannot reduce the dimensions of the tank without redesigning the whole thing.

The Arjun does need a few upgrades like a BMS, Commander's Independent Thermal sight, APS, etc. which can be incorporated in the Mk2. Please don't rehash the old "big/heavy" argument. It is a red herring. The weight and dimensions are as per the Army's GSQRs.

It is heavier for a lot of other reasons than the Armour alone. More importantly, there is no ERA externally, which means that the tank will be heavier by a tonne atleast. a sloping armour can reduce the weight significantly while keeping the tank well protected.
I know the dimensions are per the GSQR, however, imagine what a reduction of 5 inches in width can do to the weight.
The weight also has to do with the transmission and its components which can be made lighter by using new age materials (read alloys which are llighter but have the same characteristics of current materials).
That is the main reason why the Mk2 was envisaged.
Moreoever when I talk weight I am referring to the logistic backbone that is required to support this tank force. Tank transporters for example, road bridges, rail bridges, Rail carriage width, etc...This will take time to develop...MK2 will be a tank with active protection in addition to the current armour...which will also reduce the weight.
I am not rehashing the weight argument, but we live in the real world dont we?

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 18 May 2010 02:12

>> a sloping armour can reduce the weight significantly while keeping the tank well protected.

boss, that wrong. do you really think if it was that simple the guys at CVRDE are such idiots that they don't even know that ? sloped armour is irrelevant against APFSDS rounds, the primary enemy of tanks these days, what matters is the thickness and thickness alone. sloped armour was at its prime during WW2, it is effective only against HEAT and similar rounds.

IF arjun had sloped armour, to maintain the same protection level against APFSDS rounds, they had to
either a) increase the width of the turret (clearly not acceptable to the army)
OR
b) expand inwards and thereby decrease cabin space and hence crew comfort.

FYI, DRDO did put forward a tentative proposal for sloped armour in mid 90's but the then top brass went ahead with the boxy turrets because they didn't want to compromise on crew comfort. moreover, the protection level provided by the 'boxy' kanchan armour already trumped a number of sloped armour on other tanks. IOW, kanchan as it existed was considered more than enough and state of the art.
if sloping is to be done, it should be done with external slap-on ERA bricks, not with the basic armour.
btw, even the T-90 has boxy armour.

nikhil_p · Post by **nikhil_p** » 18 May 2010 02:26

Sloped Armour like they have on the current Merkava, Leopard Mk2...etc are basically extensions of current turrent in the frontal plane. Is it better to have a 60 degree sloped armour which will richochet most RPG's and similar ammo than a flat armour plane which will be damaged to certain extent.

Prasad · Post by **Prasad** » 18 May 2010 02:41

What happens to dimensions in that case?

Misraji · Post by **Misraji** » 18 May 2010 02:47

Sanku wrote:...

If you dont will you come on the forum and say "I am a person who indulged in pointless mudslinging against IA despite being told exactly how I was wrong I wanted to keep at it for some reason?"

This mudslinging about the Army is not undeserved. They have made completely unjustifiable purchases at the cost of a superior homegrown product.
If they want their names cleared, let them come out with the report of the duel.
Anything positive about Arjun gathers dust somewhere, while the negative is splashed about in all the newspapers.

Its not as if we have not seen this tack from the Army. Its been stalling Arjun for a long time now.
Shukla specifically said that they refused to take the delivery of the Arjun tanks. They specifically
refused to have the duel for 3 years while ordering more T-90s. And now again ordering peanuts while searching
for the mythical FMBT. It's almost to be expected that the next step would be more joyous news for the rodina lovers.

~Ashish

PS: Yeah yeah yeah. Shukla is biased. This has not been written in a GOI document. And its the MOD who is to blame for Arjun .....

nikhil_p · Post by **nikhil_p** » 18 May 2010 02:53

tsriram wrote:What happens to dimensions in that case?

I am talking about the turret and not the chassis...the turret overhang increases...thats all...

VinodTK · Post by **VinodTK** » 18 May 2010 03:30

When Arjun beat T-90

“Shootout at the OK Corral?” The Indian Army would undoubtedly frown at such frivolity, but scattered media reports and Internet chatter indicate that during the recent comparative trials pitching a squadron (14 tanks) of Russian T-90 tanks, currently the mainstay of the Army’s armoured forces, and an equivalent number of India’s indigenous Arjun Main Battle Tank (MBT), the latter is said to have “performed creditably” and “outshot and outran” its Russian competitor. Details available in the public domain are understandably sketchy, but even allowing for journalistic hyperbole, these comparative trials should be of landmark significance as an indicator of the giant strategic strides by indigenous defence research and heavy engineering, something with which the Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) and the Heavy Vehicles Factory (HVF) Avadi would finally have reason to be pleased with themselves. For their part, the Indian Army and its Armoured Corps who had been extremely firm and demanding users accepting no compromises in standards of performance, now perhaps require to revisit their stand, and approve the current successful model of the Arjun for series production and induction into service as the country’s principal Main Battle Tank. It is to be sincerely hoped that when the time comes to take a decision the Indian Army will select the indigenous MBT vis-a-vis the T-90 as the replacement for the T-72 fleet, now well on its way to obsolescence.

a_kumar · Post by **a_kumar** » 18 May 2010 03:30

nikhil_p wrote:MK2 will be a tank with active protection in addition to the current armour...which will also reduce the weight.

All things being same with respect to armor, shouldn't addition of active protection increase the weight?

Kartik · Post by **Kartik** » 18 May 2010 03:42

ASPuar wrote: Looks like nothing satisfies some people! The army and MoD have reacted positively to the successful results of trials. But still, some people take it as a reason to bash the Army/MoD. I dont understand the logic. The army's Damned if it does, and the Army's damned if it doesnt!

Did you want them to order 10000 Arjuns with immediate effect? Wtf? Theyve taken a step in the right direction.

something is better than nothing, for sure, but just 2 more Arjun regiments ? its quite obvious that they're doing this to simply placate the DRDO for now and get them off their back. Seriously when the MoD is now openly admitting that the Arjun did very well during gruelling desert trials and has overcome all its performance issues completely, what is the logic of ordering just 2 regiments worth when we have some many obsolete tanks that need replacing ? Nobody would say that the IA is seriously changing its procurement practices when one sees them ordering 2 more regiments worth of Arjuns. I'm afraid that this whole episode casts a very very poor light on the IA's procurement practices and will make a lot of people talk about corruption in the IA.

Why were they not ordering T-90s in such small numbers when they went in for direct import purchase agreements ? Twice they did it - at one go they went and bought 6 regiments worth of T-90s, without having rectified issues that blighted them in the desert heat. Now when nearly 1600 T-90s are on order they are not yet fully resolved..But when it comes to the Arjun, all sorts of excuses are being made up, from production size per year to unbelievably absurd arguments about the Arjun becoming obsolete in 10 years time like as if the PA and PLA are in 10 years time going to completely revamp their entire armoured force with some mythical new FMBT. The armyman who makes such an argument should be publicly questioned about what makes the T-90 obsolescence-free in 10 years time..what jantar mantar do they intend to do to in in 10 years time to make it jump from this generation's tank to the "Future"..and why can't that be done to the Arjun ? Who's stopping them ?

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 18 May 2010 04:03

Used google chacha. No help for reports within the year or so, so ........ do we know what "Mk II" consists of by any chance? TIA.

Suppiah · Post by **Suppiah** » 18 May 2010 06:19

This new order is great news indeed for several reasons

- that DRDO has designed a product that beats the one currently in service
- that Army is mature enough to take back their original opinion and give their support instead of sticking to it for prestige reasons.
- that we have a system that puts pressure on DRDO and not dumps anything and everything on Army / iAF just because it is local, unlike in some countries

This is not the time to complain about only 124, I am pretty sure if Arjun is cheaper and better Army will order more if only they can be produced faster. It puts enough cash in the research team's hands to make incremental improvements along the way...I only wish it was 144 ( 72 x 2)

If one day development costs of top 5 things DRDO did can be fully realised through paybacks on equipment cost (even with equal performance) that would be fantastic and I can see that happening once some corporate style management reform is done at DRDO level.

Even without this, DRDO is already probably forcing overseas vendors to be realistic in pricing, hard to calculate the benefits of that..

Manish_Sharma · Post by **Manish_Sharma** » 18 May 2010 07:25

Suppiah wrote:- that we have a system that puts pressure on DRDO and not dumps anything and everything on Army / iAF just because it is local, unlike in some countries

This system is proving to be extremely damaging to national interests. This system makes sure that IA gets to reject a world class home product while keep on buying unproven TinCans. Yes like pointed out here:

Kartik wrote:
something is better than nothing, for sure, but just 2 more Arjun regiments ? its quite obvious that they're doing this to simply placate the DRDO for now and get them off their back. Seriously when the MoD is now openly admitting that the Arjun did very well during gruelling desert trials and has overcome all its performance issues completely, what is the logic of ordering just 2 regiments worth when we have some many obsolete tanks that need replacing ? Nobody would say that the IA is seriously changing its procurement practices when one sees them ordering 2 more regiments worth of Arjuns. I'm afraid that this whole episode casts a very very poor light on the IA's procurement practices and will make a lot of people talk about corruption in the IA.

Why were they not ordering T-90s in such small numbers when they went in for direct import purchase agreements ? Twice they did it - at one go they went and bought 6 regiments worth of T-90s, without having rectified issues that blighted them in the desert heat. Now when nearly 1600 T-90s are on order they are not yet fully resolved..But when it comes to the Arjun, all sorts of excuses are being made up, from production size per year to unbelievably absurd arguments about the Arjun becoming obsolete in 10 years time like as if the PA and PLA are in 10 years time going to completely revamp their entire armoured force with some mythical new FMBT. The armyman who makes such an argument should be publicly questioned about what makes the T-90 obsolescence-free in 10 years time..what jantar mantar do they intend to do to in in 10 years time to make it jump from this generation's tank to the "Future"..and why can't that be done to the Arjun ? Who's stopping them ?

I mean they'd rather upgrade old Tin72s but won't replace them with Arjuns. Can it get anymore ugly then this. Even freshly retired Gen. Deepak Kapoor has said that 90% of Indian Tanks are night blind, while 80% of porki-panda tanks are nightvision capable.

What if the war happens in 2 or 4 or 6 years? Maybe IA will send Porki-Pandas a copy of Mahabharta where it was a rule not to fight after sunset, and request them to respect our heritage and refrain from fighting in the night. In a way it stuck me amazing while reading this news that all through the History thread Prithiraj vs Gauri and other fights were lost 'cause of enemy attacking at night while we were sleeping. And now again in this 21st century Bhartiya tanks are nightblind.

This is a national emergency that we should rope in Tatas and L&T to make 2000 Arjuns while cancelling next kheps of 1000 + 1000 Tin 90s and Tin 72s.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 18 May 2010 07:36

Found this on Shiv blog from Ajai , seems this is just a small order before much bigger one

Hi Shiv,

Congrats on fighting the good fight... and coming out tops.

Don't be taken in by the small number of 124. Much bigger orders are ahead for the improved and upMarked Arjun.

Cheers!

Ajai

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 18 May 2010 07:45

Well, a little google found this (perhaps already posted some time ago):

"Arjun In Present Form Can Never Be Our MBT, 2 More Regiments Possible"

(Per that article) These two regiments should have been expected. AND we should expect no more on the Arjun front.

We can expect A FMBT. And on THAT topic:

The Army should share the blame also for not expediting its requirements for a future main battle tank (FMBT). There have been internal studies for years, but to this day, there is no definite picture of what our FMBT should have, look like or be capable of.

ALL that in March, 2010.

So, we have no recs for the FMBT, the Arjun Mark-2 is not going beyond the present acquisition (and is certainly not going to form the basis on which the FMBT will be structured in any shape or form) and the "wish list" that came into view on the previous page of this thread will form the framework of A FMBT.

(Just noticed Austin's post.)

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 18 May 2010 07:51

The night blindness is real cause for concern but the rapid induction of T-90's Bishma will offset that to a great extent if the hyperactive Avadi cannot deliver it on time hopefully the armed forces imports it from Russia to make up for time.

Similarly the big expected order of Arjun in Mark 2 variant as Ajai predicts it plus the 240 plus Mk1 will help in negating that further.

All in All its really great effort from DRDO , IA and GOI to approve the purchase of additional Arjun and fund Arjun mark2 development.

Lets hope the IA/GOI are keeping a close eye on improving the T-90's further like Mark 2 types with similar development of that improved variant currently going on in Russia and keep Mark2 upgrades standard as much as possible for both tanks.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 18 May 2010 07:59

I am beginning to wonder if there is any connection between the T-95 and an Indian FMBT. Not much technical details on the 95 can be found (to be compared with the "wish list"), but my suspicion is that the recs would be fairly close. Around 2007 there was an offer from the Russians to develop a FMBT together.

Dunno. Just speculation on my side.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 18 May 2010 08:05

No there is no connection between T-95 and FMBT , the T-95 project has been cancelled and the designer/builder has been compensated for cancelled project.

Yes there is an offer to co-develop FMBT with Russia from scratch along the lines of PAK-FA project , it would certainly be a good idea imo to co-develop the next gen tank.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 18 May 2010 08:16

Cool - about the T-95. (Do you know why? Funds? Out of pure curiosity, are they thinking of something else. They seem to have just one tank company now, right?)

I am not that sure that an Indo-RU tank would be of much benefit to India. Researching the "wish list" - it seems that much of those technologies are there - which is what led me to state a page ago that it is a matter on integration (a very challenging task to be sure (which by itself could be an understatement)).

More than more orders of the Arjun OR the "FMBT" I would love to see a dynamic increase in R&D funding AND for heaven's sake pray for some dynamite Project Managers too while you guys are at the wishing table.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 18 May 2010 09:35

there is some scope to add spaced wedge shaped armour plates (leo2A5 style) to arjun turret to further increase the protection levels both against darts and heat rounds. the leopard also evolved from the boxy turret to current shape.
http://www.military-today.com/tanks/arjun.jpg
http://www.army-technology.com/projects ... leop19.jpg

there's plenty of scope in front and side (over the tracks) to add the wedge shaped add ons. with the formidable ATGM capability built up
by the PA and PLA its better to be safe than sorry.

Sanku · Post by **Sanku** » 18 May 2010 10:00

Updates from news paper -- so far 75 Arjuns have been delievered, the current order is expected to be met in mid 2011.

So the next order should begin in mid 2011.

Austin -- I fully expect this will be more of Arjun Mk I (not Mk II), for next three years, 2011-2014, Arjun Mk II will start only from 2014.

I hope and pray that at that time it will be a 100 tank line, the remaining content will be Indianized, and next items will see its place on Arjun.

So far its playing out exactly as expected.

@NRao -- the article you posted quoting "unnamed senior sources" is frankly the usual fishing in troubled waters for journalistic eyeballs. There is nothing in that to be given credence.

Arjun will be inducted at the rate Avadi can make them, that has ALWAYS been the case since the project was started, much as people would not like to believe it.

Sanku · Post by **Sanku** » 18 May 2010 10:12

Manish_Sharma wrote: I mean they'd rather upgrade old Tin72s but won't replace them with Arjuns. Can it get anymore ugly then this.

No it makes a lot of sense. The Indian forces for better or for worse use the most in any given equipment. Upgrading T 72s is a very cost effective method to get good tanks, ITS NOT coming at the cost of Arjun's.

Even freshly retired Gen. Deepak Kapoor has said that 90% of Indian Tanks are night blind, while 80% of porki-panda tanks are nightvision capable.

I am not sure if 80% of Porki-Panda tanks are not night blind. For Porkis certainly not 80%. Max 400 out of their entire inventory

Panda I dont know about but surely not 80%, unlikely.

This is a national emergency that we should rope in Tatas and L&T to make 2000 Arjuns while cancelling next kheps of 1000 + 1000 Tin 90s and Tin 72s.

While all that wishing that happening for Tata's magically helping with Arjun is fine. IN REALITY the fastest path to most non night blind tanks is to upgrade T 72s.

More than enough for next few years.

Meanwhile none of these issues is new -- IA was raising it since 1990s.

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 18 May 2010 10:13

HVF is not the only Indian org that has the capacity to manufacture tanks, it is merely the only one doing so right now. there is no reason why a project as critical as arjun has to be tied in perpetuity with the fortunes of an under-performing OFB factory.

incidentally, http://www.dynamatics.com/news28.shtml#4

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putnanja · Post by **putnanja** » 18 May 2010 10:15

Sanku wrote:Arjun will be inducted at the rate Avadi can make them, that has ALWAYS been the case since the project was started, much as people would not like to believe it.

Avadi can produce at higher rate if IA orders more. Remember that the current production line will break even only if IA orders at least 500 tanks, and that is taking the development costs too into account. Avadi can ramp up the production rate if IA says that it will order more. Why will Avadi take more loss to complete 124 tank order in 2 years, and then sell the machinery for scrap?

Sanku · Post by **Sanku** » 18 May 2010 10:17

Misraji wrote:
Sanku wrote:...

If you dont will you come on the forum and say "I am a person who indulged in pointless mudslinging against IA despite being told exactly how I was wrong I wanted to keep at it for some reason?"
This mudslinging about the Army is not undeserved. They have made completely unjustifiable purchases at the cost of a superior homegrown product. .

Nonsense -- all this mud slinging is because of total lack of basic knowledge on issues and rants being prefereable to understanding.

Meanwhile I see that you have done down hill sking when asked to put your money where your mouth is -- making inane comments trashing some one is easy -- when asked to take a modicum of responsibility for your statements, all the "hot air" goes right out.

As it happens you had no clue that the current order is supposed to be fulfilled over 10 years or more but felt free about the need to make the prediction -- more T 90s will be acquired.

Sorry boss reality check.