Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): May 21, 2010

harbans · Post by **harbans** » 26 Jun 2010 11:24

Well, you only make Christin's point which I endorese. If Somalia is not a failed state, how the hell can one say TSP is a failed state. And more importantly, how can India take any comfort that TSP is a so called failed state.>>>>

Precisely. Paki's are winning, they care a damn what happens to them economically as long as they can snitch a piece of flesh of India once a while. Like a Hyena. But remember a Hyena gets the better of too many a big animal because it tires..the 1000 cut policy pukes says we will eat grass...read 'failed state as we tend to think' but we will fck u in the end..goal to achieve. Pukes know they are well on target and so rightly don't consider themselves failed. Fair is obvoiusly 'right' for all the 'wrong' reasons.

PS (added later): Did one hear how Hussain Ombaba and co. reacted when India tabled it's nuclear civil deal in the US? By massive lobbying..calling bills and trying the best through npa'S and NSG and every possible forum on Earth to get India to abandon the deal? Look at how Pukes are cakewalking through the same steps. Heard a squeak from David Halfbright and co yet? or Ombaba? Any bills to prevent the biggest proliferators collaborating in violation to international law again? Where are the pipsqueak countries NZ, Aus, And some of the North European ones that express so much outrage at India and now are deafeningly silent? Hello we have to redefine our notion of ""failed..""

A_Gupta · Post by **A_Gupta** » 26 Jun 2010 11:40

http://www.zimdiaspora.com/index.php?op ... &Itemid=18

Zimbabwean police have identified the suspected international terrorist arrested at Beitbridge Border Post on Sunday night as Imran Muhammad who is wanted in connection with the Mumbai bombings that left hundreds dead.

Muhammad (33), a Pakistani, arrested on Sunday along with fellow countryman Chaudry Parvez Ahmed (39) as they tried to enter South Africa are now in custody as an international terrorist investigations begins. The duo were using fake passports.

The arrest of the two entering South Africa during the 2010 Fifa Soccer World Cup has raised much worry around the world.

The state-run Herald said while authorities would not divulge how investigations were proceeding, the Daily Times of Pakistan in January this year reported that the Special Investigation Group of the Federal Investigation Agency was looking for Imran Muhammad as well as 119 other suspected terrorists.

It could not be determined yesterday if this was the same person who is now in custody in Zimbabwe.

Indications were that the Muhammad wanted in Pakistan was allegedly involved in the terror attacks that rocked Mumbai, India, in November 2008.

However, a search of the online database of Interpol’s wanted persons did not return any matches.

PS: Daily Times article that is referred to above is:
http://www.dailytimes.com.pk/default.as ... 010_pg7_40

LAHORE: The Special Investigation Group (SIG) of the Federal Investigation Agency (FIA) has published the new edition of the Red Book titled “Most Wanted High-Profile Terrorists”.

The book announces a combined bounty of Rs 65.85 million, fixed by the federal and provincial governments. A copy of the book obtained by Aaj Kal enlists 119 terrorists, including those involved in the assassination of former prime minister Benazir Bhutto, Mumbai attacks, Marriott hotel attack and sectarian violence in the country.
....

Terrorists wanted by the Islamabad Capital Territory (ICT) are Rana Ishfaq Ahmed, Ibraruddin Syed and Muhammad Imran.

NYT
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/06/26/world ... BABWE.html

The police in Zimbabwe said Friday that they had detained two Pakistani men heading to South Africa, one of them under an international arrest warrant for terrorism, the state-owned newspaper The Herald reported.

Here is the Interpol Red Notice for a Muhammad Imran (32nd birthday on June 27 - not 33 as in the article above).
http://www.interpol.int/public/Data/Wan ... 9_2250.asp

Present family name: IMRAN
Forename: MUHAMMAD
Sex: MALE
Date of birth: 27 June 1978 (31 years old)
Place of birth: MARDAN, NWFP, Pakistan
Language spoken: PASHTO, Urdu
Nationality: Pakistan

Categories of Offences: CRIMES AGAINST LIFE AND HEALTH, CRIMES AGAINST LIFE AND HEALTH ATTEMPT, TERRORISM
Arrest Warrant Issued by: RAWALPINDI, ISLAMABAD / Pakistan

(Interpol also has a red corner notice for a Muhammad Imran Riaz, born Jan 1, 1981, so 29 years old, probably not the one in the news from Zimbabwe above.)

arun · Post by **arun** » 26 Jun 2010 12:12

X Posted.

arun wrote:No part of the world seems to be immune from the unwelcome attentions of citizens of the Islamic Republic of Pakistan out to indulge in a spot of Islamic terrorism.

Two citizens of the Islamic Republic of Pakistan, one of whom is a “wanted international terrorist”, arrested while trying to exit Zimbabwe for South Africa with fraudulent Kenyan passports :

Zim holds 'terrorists' at SA border

25/06/2010 00:00:00
by Staff Reporter

ZIMBABWE says it has arrested two suspected terrorists trying to enter South Africa, raising new fears of a terror plot against the ongoing FIFA World Cup.

The state-run Herald newspaper reported Friday that the two men were Pakistani nationals, one of them a “wanted international terrorist”. {Snipped}

New Zimbabwe

The arrests of Pakistani Islamic Terrorists in Zimbabwe, does apparently have a link to the Pakistan fomented Mumbai 26/11 Islamic terrorist attack.

Imran Muhammad, the citizen of the Islamic Republic of Pakistan arrested in Zimbabwe “is said to be wanted in Pakistan for alleged involvement in the terrorist attacks that hit Mumbai, India in 2008 “.

Our MEA should immediately start working to get us access to these Pakistani Islamic Terrorists before they get deported back to that Islamic Terrorist fomenting cesspit, Pakistan:

Pakistani terror suspects named

abhishek_sharma · Post by **abhishek_sharma** » 26 Jun 2010 14:06

From the comments section

http://blog.dawn.com/2010/06/25/pakista ... ng-genius/

Mohammad Ajmal says:
June 25, 2010 at 19:44
I am Ahmadi Muslim, and was in Navy for 14 years, wore uniform to defend my country. I had to sign at regular interval,(like all others) declaration of being Muslim by saying that Ahmad of Qadian is imposter Nabi. The CO’s would always call me and say, Ajmal this is a form from Top, it is upto you ti sign what ever you like. Ofcourse I never signed it.

Once in Navy, another Officer started shouting on me because of my self being Ahmadi, and in rage he said, “I know your Dr Salam got his Noble Prize with the help of Jews, and if he (this Officer) had also passed Ph.D in science, he could also have got Noble Prize”. Can some body lament the state of mindset of this Nation.

That’s why this massacre of 85 Ahmadi Muslims, in Lahore, all in Islam name.

Keep it up.

Mohammad Ajmal
Canada

Vashishtha · Post by **Vashishtha** » 26 Jun 2010 14:45

Chidambaram presses for action against Saeed during meetings with Malik

Altair · Post by **Altair** » 26 Jun 2010 16:18

Failed state does not apply to Pakistan anymore. It was a failed state in the 70's itself perhaps earlier than that.

Pakistan is a mad dog which could have died out of it own madness decades ago. It has been kept alive medically to keep "Hindu"stan under check by all sundry. As long as this mad dog does not bite other well respected people in the locality, people can live with it.

Pakistan will deny everything they agreed today as soon as Americans exit Af-Pak. It will be naive and suicidal to give Pakistanis anything at face value even if Obama gives his personal assurance.

The only logical solution in dealing with a mad dog is killing it.If you cant kill it overtly at least increase its madness so it becomes unhandlable to even its so called masters and friends Or lets put it out of its misery ourselves.

As was pointed out by Bob Gates when meeting Indians and Pakis after 26/11,In a India-Pakistan war ,Indians would loose industrial infrastructure but Pakis would loose a country(Nothing new for them though!)

Enough of this bade bhai - chote bhai nautanki.

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 26 Jun 2010 16:48

Not so strategic a depth - from TFT

Today I happened to watch a documentary by the famous website http://www.pbs.org. The documentary was shocking enough. Many disgusting and irritating scenes aside, the speech by the then 11th core commander to the militants and the tribesmen was perhaps the most disturbing. The commander was speaking in the same tone as Qazi Hussain Ahmad, Manawar Hasan and such other Taliban apologists. The address was made to a gathering after the deal with the then Taliban commander Naik Mohammad. During the ceremony, garlands were offered both to the 11th core commander and Naik Mohammad, commander of the militants. The former made an interesting remark by saying that America wanted to do with Pakistan what it has done with Afghanistan and Iraq. After him the militants’ chief also spoke in the same tone. Both the military and the militants appeared to be bonded by an ideological marriage.

PA went to FATA in circa 2004, when Gop decided to send the Army to FATA, to deflect criticism. When the PA suffered massive casualties after boasting the Army operation would be over in a few days, it was forced to sign a peace deal as per Nek Mohammed's terms. PA disingenuously claimed that it did not sign a deal with the Taliban, but only with the tribesmen ! Of course, all those who signed the deals from the Taliban side were also tribesmen ! The reference above is to Lt. Gen. Safdar Hussain, Corps Commander, Peshawar, who had to personally meet Taliban commander Nek Mohammed to sign the peace deal (at Shakai in South Waziristan in April 2004) and even give him USD 540,000 {a fact he admitted in the press meet}. The humiliating part was Nek Mohammed promised the Lt. Gen. a safe passage in what is supposed to be his own backyard !

This week's TFT is devoted to trashing the LSE report by Waldmann, BTW, except for the above article.

chetak · Post by **chetak** » 26 Jun 2010 17:06

Pathetic losers with petty insults!

http://www.zopag.com/news/indian-flag-u ... 21609.html

'Indian flag upside down during Chidambaram, Malik meeting'
ANI
Published Sat 26th Jun 2010 16:03:17

E-mail | Print | Comment | Feedback | Text
Islamabad, June 26 : Home Minister P Chidambaram said that the upside down display of the Indian flag during his meeting with Pakistani counterpart Rehman Malik is a minor issue, and added that the flag was put right after the fault was pointed out.

Chidambaram is the first Indian Home Minister to visit Pakistan in three decades. He met Malik at the Interior Ministry in Islamabad, where he was accorded a red carpet welcome and given a ceremonial Guard of Honour on Friday.

“Visuals in one of the channel showed that the Indian flag had been upside down when there was one on one meeting between me and Rehman Malik. That was the first visual, but immediately after we sat down I noticed the error and skewed the flag mast and it was put right,” Chidambaram said.

“I think if you also show the visuals of delegation joining flag was flying right I think its a minor mistake and I don’t think we should make much of it. The flag was put right I therefore request the channel to show the second visuals taken when the delegations were meeting,” he added.

Chidambaram arrived here on Friday to attend the South Asian Association for Regional Cooperation (SAARC) Home Ministers’ Conference.

In a special gesture, Malik went to the Chaklala Air Base in Rawalpindi and personally received Chidambaram on Friday.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 26 Jun 2010 17:29

CRamS wrote: Fact that it is a failed state or not isn't of any consolation to India.

This is correct. But there is worse news. Pakistan is not about to disappear. We have to live with Pakistan or its component parts and all the people it has whelped right next door.

Ultimately guns don't kill people. People kill people.

We can hate Pakistanis as they hate us.

But wtf are we going to do about them? That is the privilege that the failed have. We must sob, moan and gnash our teeth. That is natural. But after that is done, we need to sit up - maybe have another little moan and weep, and then think about wtf we going to do about the people who all hate us almost uniformly?

I do understand that moaning and cursing makes me feel much better, but by the time I finish my moan another 200 Pakis are born. So where are we heading?

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 26 Jun 2010 17:58

Najam Sethi says that the world is 'generally unhappy about Pakistan' (TFT Editorial this week).

Three recent global surveys are harbingers of bad news for Pakistan.

Foreign Policy magazine’s survey ranks Pakistan as the 10th most failed state among the 177 countries of the world, just behind the likes of Afghanistan, Sudan, Chad and Zimbabwe, but worse than Burma and Nepal. By contrast, India (87th) is happily placed in the midway house of “second world” states gearing up to challenge the “first world” in many ways.

A BBC survey in April lends support to these conclusions. Twenty-three out of 27 countries surveyed gave Pakistan a negative ranking – the anti-Pakistan average is 51% in all the 27 countries. Interestingly, Iran and Israel are in the same negative category as Pakistan. But, significantly, only one third of the countries surveyed have a negative opinion about India!

A third survey of 22 countries by Pew Research also arrives at disturbing conclusions. Despite being a major recipient of US aid, only 17 per cent Pakistanis had a favourable view of America. Indeed, 65 per cent think the US is a potential military threat to Pakistan! In sharp contrast, over 66 per cent of Indians, whose country trades with the US but receives no aid, had a favourable opinion of America. {That's how much India runs deeply in their veins howsoever much they pretend to be otherwise. They have to compare with India at every stage. So much for their West Asian and Central Asian identities !}

Pakistan is also out of step with the world as far as perceptions of Iran are concerned. Most countries, including Muslim-majority ones, disapprove of Iran’s president, its regime and nuclear weapons program and support sanctions to bring it into line. But 72 per cent of Pakistanis give a thumbs-up to Iran on all counts!

The biggest delusion is that as many as 40 per cent still think that their country is “generally liked” abroad whereas the truth is quite the opposite as all the surveys demonstrate.

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 26 Jun 2010 18:08

Is ISI Fighting America ? asks Khaled Ahmed in TFT

Everyone in Pakistan knows that for the US, what is happening in Afghanistan is war against terrorism, but for Pakistan it is war against India. Everyone in Pakistan also knows that Pakistan used to look at all Taliban as ‘strategic assets’ till some of them began to kill Pakistanis. It took inordinately long for the Pakistan army to designate the Pakistani Taliban as the enemy to be eliminated. However, it continues to confuse that Pakistani Taliban as ‘enemy’ owe allegiance to the Afghan Taliban under Mullah Umar who are viewed as ‘friends’.

The Quetta Shura whose existence was denied by Musharraf had always existed and Pakistanis were included among those who were deceived by him.

President Zardari is on board: This was the aftermath of the rounding up of the Shura Taliban after it came to light that some of them were willing to talk peace with Kabul. Zardari’s support to this can be understood as a desperate attempt to secure himself against the onslaught of the Supreme Court which will have to rely on the army to oust him from power. The old pattern of power play has returned to Pakistan: the incumbent is under attack from fellow-politicians and will fall only if he refuses to accept the army’s operation of the country’s security and foreign policies. Zardari has been quickly weaned from his ‘normalisation’ policy towards India. Now everyone is endorsing war with India in Afghanistan and, indirectly, against the US as India’s staunch strategic ally.

And the ISI may not be digging too deeply into its own pocket; big money comes in from Saudi Arabia and the Gulf states to support the war to defeat America. The ISI trains warriors in its various camps and sends them into Afghanistan to ostensibly fight America, but in reality it is India that Pakistan wants to pre-empt.

There are glaring contradictions in Pakistan’s twin concepts that guide its behaviour today: Strategic Depth (read non state actors of various stripes) and India-Centrism.

archan · Post by **archan** » 26 Jun 2010 18:55

Dipanker wrote:
ajit_tr wrote:PAK gonna do same with nuke reactors what india is going to do with its ie produce electricity.
Yes, just like Iran!

He has an irrefutable upper hand in matters of pak. He knows these things for sure. How dare you question him!

arun · Post by **arun** » 26 Jun 2010 19:03

SSridhar wrote:Najam Sethi says that the world is 'generally unhappy about Pakistan' (TFT Editorial this week).

Three recent global surveys are harbingers of bad news for Pakistan. {Snipped}

A day of laments for the press of the Islamic Republic of Pakistan brought on by surveys it would seem

.

The News is also carrying a lament based on 3 surveys though the BBC Survey has been replaced by Freedom House's Freedom Survey:

The way the world sees us

Sanjay M · Post by **Sanjay M** » 26 Jun 2010 19:32

CRamS wrote:
Sanjay M wrote:
USA/NATO: Atlanticist-dominated, unable to see national interests
India: Kaangress-dominated, unable to see national interests (aka. "vee kannot achieve our prime goal of hanging onto our jobz and shaking down our own people for cash, unless vee appeaze dis Pak, to get it out of owr hair")
China: authoritarian-dominated and ultra-nationalist
Pak: authoritarian-dominated and religiously ultra-nationalist
So? TSP is a failed state because of this list?

Failure can be a relative term - as well as a temporary one.

Mohammad Ghauri was a failure on his initial offensives against Prithviraj Chauhan. Later on, he became victorious.
With Kaangress in power, following their "party first, country last" ideology, then Pak always has a hope of bouncing back. India, with its navel-gazing near-sighted politicians and its apathetic welfare-addicted public, has the seeds of failure built in.

If an Eisenhower, Schwarzkopf or Petraeus runs for office in the US, he can of course easily win. If a similar Indian war hero were to run in India, he could easily be beaten by some moron who doles out free TV sets to the masses.

India's sedentary heritage, with its high proportion of basketcases relative to the overall population level, is an ever-present liability that most external adversaries can't help but take note of.

Dipanker · Post by **Dipanker** » 26 Jun 2010 19:48

CRamS wrote:
Dipanker wrote:
Actually it is both i.e. A failed Terrorist State.
Fact that it is a failed state or not isn't of any consolation to India. The fact that it is a terrorist state is. And it is not a failed state because it can terroize India with impuntiy and not face any consequences. On the contrary it is reaping rewards. Thats what Christine Fair is trying to say, albeit indirectly. Tell me something. Somalia is a failed state. Does Somalia command the kind of respect TSP does?

USA/NATO: We can't win Afganisthan without TSP
India: India cannot realize its potential without appeasing TSP
China: nuke deal

Not bad for a so called "failed state" wouldn't you say so?

I don't buy your line of logic, using this mode of logic even Somalia is not a failed state because Somali pirates are collecting ransom money from most of the states.

Pakistan is a miserably failed state and a terrorist one at that. That is what the whole world thinks, just look at the surveys!

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 26 Jun 2010 20:13

Twin blasts at Lahore

svinayak · Post by **svinayak** » 26 Jun 2010 22:36

Dipanker wrote: Tell me something. Somalia is a failed state. Does Somalia command the kind of respect TSP does?

USA/NATO: We can't win Afganisthan without TSP
India: India cannot realize its potential without appeasing TSP
China: nuke deal

Not bad for a so called "failed state" wouldn't you say so?

I don't buy your line of logic, using this mode of logic even Somalia is not a failed state because Somali pirates are collecting ransom money from most of the states.

Pakistan is a miserably failed state and a terrorist one at that. That is what the whole world thinks, just look at the surveys!

That logic is correct and perfectly valid. Pakistan has powerful backers who will never let it fail. So it is not a failed state and never will be.

JwalaMukhi · Post by **JwalaMukhi** » 26 Jun 2010 23:00

^absolutely. Pakistan is a low cost toxic experiment conducted in an area that is earmarked to test experiments which is not possible anywhere else in the world. The results of the experiment could be unacceptable, but the staging ground for all toxic experiments will never be abandoned.
The only worries are about i) the escalation of the cost (relatively still a very low cost affair) associated with the experiment and ii) the outreach of toxic byproducts to other areas not desirable. and finally iii) escalating cost of holding onto the staging area.

svinayak · Post by **svinayak** » 26 Jun 2010 23:16

chetak wrote:Pathetic losers with petty insults!

Islamabad, June 26 : Home Minister P Chidambaram said that the upside down display of the Indian flag during his meeting with Pakistani counterpart Rehman Malik is a minor issue, and added that the flag was put right after the fault was pointed out.

After it has been done many times Indians should understand by now. It is meant to show that Pakistan and Muslims are in charge and they are the dominant rulers.

rajsunder · Post by **rajsunder** » 26 Jun 2010 23:29

chetak wrote:Pathetic losers with petty insults!

http://www.zopag.com/news/indian-flag-u ... 21609.html

'Indian flag upside down during Chidambaram, Malik meeting'
ANI
Published Sat 26th Jun 2010 16:03:17

E-mail | Print | Comment | Feedback | Text
Islamabad, June 26 : Home Minister P Chidambaram said that the upside down display of the Indian flag during his meeting with Pakistani counterpart Rehman Malik is a minor issue, and added that the flag was put right after the fault was pointed out.

Chidambaram is the first Indian Home Minister to visit Pakistan in three decades. He met Malik at the Interior Ministry in Islamabad, where he was accorded a red carpet welcome and given a ceremonial Guard of Honour on Friday.

“Visuals in one of the channel showed that the Indian flag had been upside down when there was one on one meeting between me and Rehman Malik. That was the first visual, but immediately after we sat down I noticed the error and skewed the flag mast and it was put right,” Chidambaram said.

“I think if you also show the visuals of delegation joining flag was flying right I think its a minor mistake and I don’t think we should make much of it. The flag was put right I therefore request the channel to show the second visuals taken when the delegations were meeting,” he added.

Chidambaram arrived here on Friday to attend the South Asian Association for Regional Cooperation (SAARC) Home Ministers’ Conference.

In a special gesture, Malik went to the Chaklala Air Base in Rawalpindi and personally received Chidambaram on Friday.

this is not the first time it has happened, but we still never learn.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 27 Jun 2010 00:11

Archan, Dipanker is right about TSP intentions. If you give an Indian and a Paki each a pencil, the Indian will write poetry or even shahiri (syncretic influence) while the Paki will poke the Indian's eye out.

archan · Post by **archan** » 27 Jun 2010 00:29

ramana wrote:Archan, Dipanker is right about TSP intentions. If you give an Indian and a Paki each a pencil, the Indian will write poetry or even shahiri (syncretic influence) while the Paki will poke the Indian's eye out.

Confusion! I am in agreement with Dipanker.

Anujan · Post by **Anujan** » 27 Jun 2010 01:08

I agree with ajit_tr

This India-Pak-China-NSG sniping can be avoided by finding common ground. I propose giving Pakistan a latest Xerox machine instead. Everyone wins!

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 27 Jun 2010 01:22

archan wrote:
ramana wrote:Archan, Dipanker is right about TSP intentions. If you give an Indian and a Paki each a pencil, the Indian will write poetry or even shahiri (syncretic influence) while the Paki will poke the Indian's eye out.
Confusion! I am in agreement with Dipanker.

OOPS!

However thanks for letting me give my reading of Paki intentions!

CRamS · Post by **CRamS** » 27 Jun 2010 01:32

Failed state is in the eyes of the beholder. From western POV, TSP maybe a failed state. And by many social indicators when compared with the west, India is a failed state too. But thats not the point.

From India's persepective, TSP cannot be a failed state. Matter of fact, it is India that has failed wrt TSP. If TSP can brazenly declare, pretty much conceeded by India, overtly by MMS and his like-minded ilk, that TSP cannot go down and if it goes down, it will take India down with it, my goodness, thats no posture of a failed state. Furthermore, India's response to date is not that of a successful state, not by a long shot. Unless of course one defines "success" as receiving a pat on the back from the white boys for "restraint", and accepting Al Queda as the gold standard of terrorism, and hence MMS wearing this "no Indian Muslim is part of Al Queda" as a badge of honoraround his neck.

CRamS · Post by **CRamS** » 27 Jun 2010 02:42

deleted as not topic of the thread.

VikramS · Post by **VikramS** » 27 Jun 2010 03:35

CRamS:
The only question I have for you is: Why are you in the US? Everything the US does seems to rankle you to the extreme.

archan · Post by **archan** » 27 Jun 2010 03:42

CRamS wrote:Allow me a slight diversion, but just as an India TSP cricket match has huge stakes, with massive loss of H&D for whoever looses, it must have been a massive, I mean massive, below the belt kick that Ghana delivered to USA in the WC soccer today. Notice, that just as both India & TSP will claim that its just a game, but knowing fully well the massive H&D is at stake whenever they play, US elites will pompously boast that they don't care much for soccer, but scratch the surface, and you will see them desparate for US to win. I mean, just look at the coverage, US troops follwing the game, Clinton & Co watching; its basically, if US wins, then, Oh, we don't give a shit but we still kick ass; but if US looses, who cares. Now that H&D down the drain, onto NFL/NBA/, and above all "world series" baseball.

Does anybody know what this particular whine has to do with this thread? or is this another way to prove that "India is losing", "India is a failed state" which I cannot fathom?
Is it just me or this thread could do without some of the whiners for a few days?

CRamS · Post by **CRamS** » 27 Jun 2010 03:49

archan wrote: Does anybody know what this particular whine has to do with this thread? or is this another way to prove that "India is losing", "India is a failed state" which I cannot fathom?
Is it just me or this thread could do without some of the whiners for a few days?

Agreed its not the topic of the thread and hence deleted. But I wanted to show that US revels in talking about how much H&D matters in their narrative of India & TSP issues; my point was to show H&D matters to everyone. Thats all.

GaneshK · Post by **GaneshK** » 27 Jun 2010 04:16

Interesting article from the Daily Times...

Punjab government funding Jamaat-ud-Dawa —Naeem Tahir

The chief minister of Punjab has allocated funds of Rs 86 million to the suspected terror nursery of Jamaat-ud-Dawa (JuD) in Muridke, defying the ban on the organisation by the federal government. The JuD is alleged to have been involved in the Mumbai attacks. What message will be delivered to India at a time when peace is being talked about? Is this how we bridge the trust deficit?

A_Gupta · Post by **A_Gupta** » 27 Jun 2010 04:50

I'm a hobbyist gardener. I constantly have to fight weeds. There is no permanent solution, only measures that work temporarily. The garden is always dynamic and takes constant care and attention. It is not a weakness or a moral deficit (such as a lack of courage) to have a weed problem, it means the garden has good soil. Perhaps the problem posed by Pakistan is analogous. Are you looking for a cessation of weeds, or are you looking for effective ways to keep the weeds insignificant?

CRamS · Post by **CRamS** » 27 Jun 2010 05:24

Equal equalitis from TOIlet has reached its zenith. Now it seems LET and ISI are a threat to both India and TSP. Is this USA's latest narrative?

In a chilling disclosure with serious ramifications for India, Pakistan and the international community, 26/11 accused David Coleman Headley told the National Investigation Agency (NIA) earlier this month that Lashkar-e-Taiba and ISI are virtually inseparable as far as the pan-Islamic terror agenda is concerned.

harbans · Post by **harbans** » 27 Jun 2010 06:01

David Coleman Headley told the National Investigation Agency (NIA) earlier this month that Lashkar-e-Taiba and ISI are virtually inseparable as far as the pan-Islamic terror agenda is concerned.

Cramsji this is the exact opposite of ='itis.....

Is ISI not an integral part of Paki Governance?

Brad Goodman · Post by **Brad Goodman** » 27 Jun 2010 06:05

ISI is part of TSPA governence. Civilian jokers have no idea whats going on.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 27 Jun 2010 06:14

When you are in school, a person who fails drops out of sight as he joins a junior batch. States that fail do not drop out of sight.

A 'state" is a virtual structure and organization of people who agree to abide by rules they set themselves and agree to impose those rules in an area of land - or that "agreement" is forced by one ruler or an oligarchy.

The state "fails" when different sets of people follow different and conflicting rules and there is no single controlling entity to exert power over everyone. The "failure" of Pakistan has been in its inability to exist as a single coherent state but actually function as multiple overlapping states with more than one power center.

In a sense the US has lost the plot. The Pakistan army used to be the singe power center that had both clout and popularity. Both are now gone. The popularity remains reasonably intact but the clout is gone. Different power centers have now grabbed different parts of land/resources in Pakistan. Each power center has some source of income and human support and the leaders of each power center manage to survive along with their supporters, but it is what happens in the sidelines that leads to additional chaos.

What is happening in the sidelines is a human problem (you can cal it a human tragedy - but they are Pakis). Gradually - over the years there have been 20 million, 30 million, 40 million and now 60 or 70 million people who are affected by lack of development or education. If any of you drives in India - you might find that on a busy day when traffic is heavy a cow or dog may walk across the road that everyone tries to avoid. Similarly a beggar or drunk in rags may do exactly the same thing. Seeing such a guy causes anger - you wonder if he does not have more sense than a dog. The fact is he does not care. You still can't kill him. You slam on your brakes just like you did for the dog.

When you have 60-70 million unarmed people, often women and children in a failed state next door and they start walking in their thousands across the border because of strife you cannot shoot them. Well you can, but ask whether India would be right in shooting them. This is where Pakistan is heading. Every one of those Paki faces that you see in the media cosying up with Clinto or something is a person who has no real control over the land. They cannot implement things, collect taxes or control the actions of the people. Not even Kiyani. That is what "failed state" means.

CRamS · Post by **CRamS** » 27 Jun 2010 06:20

harbans:

If you recall, during the early days of Holbrooke on AfPak, he came up with this sophistry and kept repeating it until Indian babus showed him the middle finger: "for the first time since independence, India, TSP, and USA face a common threat in Al Queda bla bla"; and in his narrative, LET was left out, a formulation that suited TSP just fine. Now, by suggesting that LET is a threat to both India & TSP, the equal equalitis formulation, its another ploy to get India to continue talking irrespective of what TSP does.

Prem · Post by **Prem** » 27 Jun 2010 06:28

If Poakis keep poking indian eyes then we have no chice but to kill all those who try to cross Wagha with the germs of Pakistaniat in their bloodstream . It might sound cruel but how do u take care of contageous disease Doc? Guess ,we let in Women and female children and keep the rest of Abdfools at bay to be fed upon by Talibans. Aint we looking at 400 Millions Poakies by 2040 with no water, food , education and abandoned by the 3.5 " Poikevins" of Poakees who has fathered them .

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 27 Jun 2010 06:39

Prem wrote:If Poakis keep poking indian eyes then we have no chice but to kill all those who try to cross Wagha with the germs of Pakistaniat in their bloodstream . It might sound cruel but how do u take care of contageous disease Doc? Guess ,we let in Women and female children and keep the rest of Abdfools at bay to be fed upon by Talibans. Aint we looking at 400 Millions Poakies by 2040 with no water, food , education and abandoned by the 3.5 " Poikevins" of Poakees who has fathered them .

Premji are you going to pick up an AK 47 and shoot them?

The real problem is you will be asking Indian soldiers - disciplined fighting men indoctrinated to fight an armed enemy. giving his life if necessary to shoot a line of women and children approaching the border. They will do it, for a while, because of discipline. Sooner or later some man will think of his own wife and kids and whether he left them behind in his village 3000 Km away to shoot other women and kids.

So while your theory is good - the practice is not going to be right or easy. Apart from all the claptrap we spout about India and dharma and all that crap.

It is better if 400 milion Poakies get their food and water in their land and the women get an education now so they can get a headache on 15 nights a month when bearded hubby has a hard on. With any luck she will have only 4 kids and not 6 and we get 300 mil and not 400 mil.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 27 Jun 2010 06:57

Menstrual period ->2 weeks->egg released->1 week baby possible->1 more week->Menstrual period

The above is a summary (very approximate) of a typical menstrual cycle. Assume that hubby gets a hard on wants wants to have it off every night. It is in the week immediately after egg release that a woman is most likely to get pregnant.

Women too like to live a life. They do not like walking around pregnant or with kids all the time. They too like sex but even that is spoiled by continuous pregnancies. Male dominated society - such as Pooki Islamic society does not allow women to escape. They have to be ready for sex when the man wants it, but if they are unavailable due to pregnancy or ill health, the man gets other wives (or a whore) to visit. Even Gilani and co have more than one wife, as we all know. What about Abdul? Is he monogamous?

If you educate a girl about her own body she can learn to time her menstrual cycles so that sex can be avoided ("headache") in the crucial week after the egg is released. That way she gets a life and her husband does not have a clue that birth control is happening. It's not 100% effective - but even if it is 60% effective it will have a huge impact

Less than 5% of women are being educated in parts of Pukistan.

harbans · Post by **harbans** » 27 Jun 2010 07:06

It is better if 400 milion Poakies get their food and water in their land and the women get an education now so they can get a headache on 15 nights a month when bearded hubby has a hard on.

Shiv Ji, in 60 years Paki's have multiplied from 30 million to 180 million..6 times over in 6 decades. And a lot of Pakistan is mountains and uninhabitable area..and there's no family planning initiative or talk i can see in any media/ forum anywhere. Paki's know they are going to go up 500 million by 2060..this is conservative. India cannot provide that much water..Paki's know deep inside thay have to occuppy Indian territory at some point of time to accomodate these folks. Afghanistan maybe yes..but food comes from where one has major access to water. They have to look East to occuppy.

It's not really important enough for us to stick rigidly to the dogma of the IWT..but put it to Paki's that if they keep growing at the rate of roaches IWT may be just good enough for a decade or 2 maximum. We face a similar problem within BD..they've decided to keep breeding and infiltrating India and the NE. I have had BD's tell me to my face that NE should have gone to them. On this forum itself long back it's been mentioned how bordering areas in WB and Assam have changed in religious demographics in just 30 years. Changes are so fast..what used to happen in 300 years before happens now in just 10-15!

This outbreeding thing is real..project an India in a political and military status quo with Pakistan and BD and what will be the population projections 150 years hence. We will be outnumbered unless there is something we can do today. And no culling is not a solution. IN deff and Dumb it's been addressed..culling Hindu babies to stop their ability to reproduce. It's been raised a few times. There's been no moderation on the 'respected' poster in deff n dumb. It's been tolerated.

In this context it's important to realize/ visualize what things would look like with something that grows 6 times it's size in 60 years on ones Western and Eastern borders..Looking at the past would be probably good enough to look at the nature of the beast and then analyzing what it's implications ae if the beast itself is that many times bigger.