LCA News and Discussions

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ramana
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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Postby ramana » 21 Jan 2011 03:20

WOW!!!

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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Postby SaiK » 21 Jan 2011 03:32

adversarial indeed.

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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Postby Karan M » 21 Jan 2011 04:39

The above is a recollection by AM P Rajkumar, just before the final FRRB which cleared TD-1 for flight, in 2000. After that meeting, where that momentous decision was taken, he had to justify his decision separately to the then CAS.
Also mentions that his posting in Bangalore was not given due importance.

"There was an irrational view at Air HQ that I was having a good time at Bangalore, which happened to be my home town. The fact that I was working on a project which was to deliver a fourth generation fighter for the IAF inventory and crucial for the long-term interest of the aeronautical industry in India, was conveniently forgotten".

Should clear up all the claims of Tejas being 3 Generation.

Then writes:
"Back I went to ACM Tipnis and and said it was upto him to address my very genuine grievance. With great reluctance, he promised to do something".

Thereafter, he had to literally threaten legal action for AHQ to take him seriously, and MOD then supported him with the PM (ABV) invoking a special rule to promote him first and paperwork to follow later.

Also mentions that asked for Kirti Chakra for Shri Kothiyal for his test flight on justifiable grounds - flying a FBW aircraft for the first flight, but was denied by then CAS. Met the CAS, and repeatedly pressed for recognition & finally Kothiyal got it over the much lesser AVSM. Also says about 26 January 2001:

"I scanned the morning papers to see which award Dr Kota had been conferred with. I was expecting him to be conferred with the Padma Bhushan. To my utter horror, I found he had not been given any recognition for the stupendous effort over a period of fifteen years. This was a pity, because like justice, recognition delayed was recognition denied."

Also, please note the reports of the LCA being almost cancelled because a certain important and influential person was against it. This supports the view presented in papers how cautious and risk averse the Team LCA had to be, as a few setbacks would have cancelled the program.

http://www.deccanchronicle.com/bengalur ... k-hole-073

Weeks before the IAF inducts India’s indigenous light combat aircraft, it has come to light that Congress leader Suresh Kalmadi, who quit as secretary of the Congress parliamentary party in the aftermath of allegations of financial irregularities in the recent Commonwealth Games, was ironically concerned about public funding for the ‘Made in India’ light combat aircraft ‘Tejas.’

He told defence scientists to scrap the project well before the jet had even made its maiden flight. The scientists, according to former science adviser to the defence minister V.S. Arunachalam, held on despite threats by Mr Kalmadi that he would ask the Comptroller and Auditor General (CAG) to probe the accounts of the Aeronautical Development Agency (ADA), the nodal organisation for the project. He did not stop with such threats, but moved a private member resolution in Parliament asking the Union government to scrap the project.

Mr Kalmadi’s moves to ground the project when it was in its infancy in 1980s was fuelled by his belief that it was wasteful.


As a sidenote, Mr Kalmadi is ex-IAF. Whether that was a factor, or he genuinely felt what he did, we do not know. Of late, Mr Kalmadi has been in the news for the CWG and the controversy over the use of public funding;

The book also mentions how many IAF officers supported the Tejas & came up with workarounds, suggestions, spent resources & assisted Team LCA. Even the CAS on one occasion circa 2000, managed to get the LCA team a Mirage 2000 trainer.

But clearly, there are also people who were against/not enthusiastic for the project, and were quite political behind the scenes & there has been significant adversity against the Team. I also find Shri Antonys remarks about how many were against the project, yet it succeeded and the developers (PS Subramanyam) noting the same, significant.
Last edited by Karan M on 21 Jan 2011 05:03, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Postby babbupandey » 21 Jan 2011 04:46

WOW!

What will happen if Aaj Tak and India TV got a hint of this kind of news. For once, I won't be complaining about their 8 day "analysis" of such news.

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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Postby SaiK » 21 Jan 2011 04:55

they won't, cause "their advisers" have already said not to publish, even if people talk about it openly. the k word is becoming dirtier and dirtier.

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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Postby Karan M » 21 Jan 2011 04:58

I also find the 3G versus 4G comments to be given credence, thanks to the fact we have cretins masquerading as journalists in India. Anybody otherwise should otherwise see the reality:

Bison: 3G upgraded -so called 3G++ versus LCA

Full Glass Cockpit: No (1HUD+1MFD+limited HOTAS+HMCS)
LCA: Yes (3MFD, HUD, full HOTAS, Helmet Mounted Display - better than cueing sight)

Radar: Bison - Kopyo (range limited to 57Km, limited scan angles thanks to Bison nose)
LCA: Elta 2032 & LCA Hybrid MMR - both with ranges >100 Km, wide variety of modes, scan angles of the order of 60 degrees

EW suite: Bison - Tarang MK1, external jammer which if carried, reduces number of pylons (already limited to 5, by 1)
LCA: Integrated internal suite, with both RWR & jamming capability

Propulsion: LCA - modern more reliable powerplant with FADEC
Bison: Older gen powerplant, no FADEC, issues with reliability and maintenance

LCA: FBW for carefree handling and pilot friendlyness; has FBW dictate maneuvering limits with loads, stores, and other criteria preventing errors
Bison: No

LCA: Special measures for reduced signature in design itself - canopy, airframe, use of specific materials, Y shaped intakes displaced for signature reduction
Bison: Original MiG-21 design, only RAM possible, comes with weight penalty, important as weapons add radar signature

LCA: Able to carry dedicated LDP/Special store on dedicated pylon
Bison: No

LCA: Has 7+1 pylons per design
Bison: 4+1, limiting flexibility

Payload: Edge to LCA even using 6400 Kg empty aircraft weight (~900 kg over original 5.5T) and 10.5T, empty weight with 2R73E missiles included. Has payload of 2.5T for 5 remaining pylons

Growth potential: Edge to LCA - items such as Oxygen generating equipment being included, plus In Flight Refuelling

Stores flexibility: LCA has 1760 standard avionics fit allowing for western, Indian, Russian weapons
Bison: No

Avionics: LCA has provision for datalink, has modern avionics, computers etc
Bison: Limited upgrade, few of these are included in current aircraft & it does not have a datalink/no mention of it to get the same

Systems: LCA designed around maintenance friendliness with simulators for crew
Bison: Limited by original MiG-21 design, only part task training

Frankly, anybody sensible spending time on actual technology comparison would have clarity. But in India, journalism is the one field with apparently little to no expectation of competence

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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Postby suryag » 21 Jan 2011 05:06

But in India, journalism is the one field with apparently little to no expectation of competence

All that is needed is some lifted adjectives, some foreign brochures and some fantasy(to pass of as quoting a "knowledgeable source")
Now that IOC is done ADA should come up with a more dedicated PR wing or employ some good ad agency to showcase tejas better.

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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Postby nachiket » 21 Jan 2011 05:18

Karan M wrote:http://www.deccanchronicle.com/bengalur ... k-hole-073

Weeks before the IAF inducts India’s indigenous light combat aircraft, it has come to light that Congress leader Suresh Kalmadi, who quit as secretary of the Congress parliamentary party in the aftermath of allegations of financial irregularities in the recent Commonwealth Games, was ironically concerned about public funding for the ‘Made in India’ light combat aircraft ‘Tejas.’

He told defence scientists to scrap the project well before the jet had even made its maiden flight. The scientists, according to former science adviser to the defence minister V.S. Arunachalam, held on despite threats by Mr Kalmadi that he would ask the Comptroller and Auditor General (CAG) to probe the accounts of the Aeronautical Development Agency (ADA), the nodal organisation for the project. He did not stop with such threats, but moved a private member resolution in Parliament asking the Union government to scrap the project.

Mr Kalmadi’s moves to ground the project when it was in its infancy in 1980s was fuelled by his belief that it was wasteful.




A man like Kalmadi concerned about waste of public money? :lol: I don't buy it. Far more likely that he was paid to get the project cancelled.

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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Postby srai » 21 Jan 2011 05:25

Karan M wrote:I also find the 3G versus 4G comments to be given credence, thanks to the fact we have cretins masquerading as journalists in India. Anybody otherwise should otherwise see the reality:

...

LCA: FBW for carefree handling and pilot friendlyness; has FBW dictate maneuvering limits with loads, stores, and other criteria preventing errors
Bison: No

...


It's probably important to distinguish the FBW being a quadruplex fly-by-wire with no hydraulic backup controls. Other 3rd Gen planes had simpler FBW and a basic hydro-mechanical (analog electrical/mechanical/hydraulic) backup system.

The other aspect of 4th Gen is the extensive use of advanced materials, such as composites, being used on the LCA.

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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Postby RamaY » 21 Jan 2011 05:26

And his IAF background adds credibility. Remember payments for questions in parliament scandal?

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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Postby shiv » 21 Jan 2011 05:39

srai wrote:
It's probably important to distinguish the FBW being a quadruplex fly-by-wire with no hydraulic backup controls. Other 3rd Gen planes had simpler FBW and a basic hydro-mechanical (analog electrical/mechanical/hydraulic) backup system.

The other aspect of 4th Gen is the extensive use of advanced materials, such as composites, being used on the LCA.


Also 4th gen is the use of MMR which can be used in an air to air and air to ground mode - making an aircraft "swing role" or "multi role" unlike the use of "air interception radar" (early MiG 21) and just laser ranger for attack role (early Jaguar and MiG 27)

4th gen is about avionics.

5th gen is about stealth, sensor fusion and new materials.

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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Postby Craig Alpert » 21 Jan 2011 06:47

Image
Tejas, India's first indigenous combat jet, is displayed during Republic Day parade rehearsals in New Delhi.

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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Postby babbupandey » 21 Jan 2011 07:09

Notice that the trailer is from Bangalore - does it mean that Tejas was not flown from Bangalore to Delhi but brought on a trailer?

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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Postby karan_mc » 21 Jan 2011 07:24

Its a Mock of the Trainer and not the real jet :D

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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Postby babbupandey » 21 Jan 2011 07:30

Please excuse my untrained eyes :D

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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Postby Kartik » 21 Jan 2011 08:26

Karan M wrote:I also find the 3G versus 4G comments to be given credence, thanks to the fact we have cretins masquerading as journalists in India. Anybody otherwise should otherwise see the reality:

Bison: 3G upgraded -so called 3G++ versus LCA

Full Glass Cockpit: No (1HUD+1MFD+limited HOTAS+HMCS)
LCA: Yes (3MFD, HUD, full HOTAS, Helmet Mounted Display - better than cueing sight)

Radar: Bison - Kopyo (range limited to 57Km, limited scan angles thanks to Bison nose)
LCA: Elta 2032 & LCA Hybrid MMR - both with ranges >100 Km, wide variety of modes, scan angles of the order of 60 degrees

EW suite: Bison - Tarang MK1, external jammer which if carried, reduces number of pylons (already limited to 5, by 1)
LCA: Integrated internal suite, with both RWR & jamming capability

Propulsion: LCA - modern more reliable powerplant with FADEC
Bison: Older gen powerplant, no FADEC, issues with reliability and maintenance

LCA: FBW for carefree handling and pilot friendlyness; has FBW dictate maneuvering limits with loads, stores, and other criteria preventing errors
Bison: No

LCA: Special measures for reduced signature in design itself - canopy, airframe, use of specific materials, Y shaped intakes displaced for signature reduction
Bison: Original MiG-21 design, only RAM possible, comes with weight penalty, important as weapons add radar signature

LCA: Able to carry dedicated LDP/Special store on dedicated pylon
Bison: No

LCA: Has 7+1 pylons per design
Bison: 4+1, limiting flexibility

Payload: Edge to LCA even using 6400 Kg empty aircraft weight (~900 kg over original 5.5T) and 10.5T, empty weight with 2R73E missiles included. Has payload of 2.5T for 5 remaining pylons

Growth potential: Edge to LCA - items such as Oxygen generating equipment being included, plus In Flight Refuelling

Stores flexibility: LCA has 1760 standard avionics fit allowing for western, Indian, Russian weapons
Bison: No

Avionics: LCA has provision for datalink, has modern avionics, computers etc
Bison: Limited upgrade, few of these are included in current aircraft & it does not have a datalink/no mention of it to get the same

Systems: LCA designed around maintenance friendliness with simulators for crew
Bison: Limited by original MiG-21 design, only part task training

Frankly, anybody sensible spending time on actual technology comparison would have clarity. But in India, journalism is the one field with apparently little to no expectation of competence


Thanks Karan, good post about the Tejas Mk1 comparison to the Bison. More things you can add to the Tejas vs Bison comparison-

-far more modern ejection seat, the Martin Baker Mk16 as compared to that on the Bison which is the KM-1M, one that is unchanged from the Bis.
-Far newer RWR is also planned for the later batches of Tejas called the R118. Will be a very modern system. Existing one is similar though
-Internal EW suite is also going to be integrated which is superior to the Elta 8222 SPJ pod that the Bison can carry with sacrifice one pylon. Already the Bison needs 2 drop tanks for any meaningful range, and with the 8222 pod, that only leaves 1 more pylon for a missile or bomb. Compared to the 7+1 pylons that are free on the Tejas with its internal EW.
-Plus, a self-diagnostic fault detection system to track any faults on the ground, which is not there on the Bison.
-modern avionics like VOR/TACAN. Not seen any mention of such systems on the Bison though it had ILS.

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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Postby Kartik » 21 Jan 2011 08:30

nachiket wrote:A man like Kalmadi concerned about waste of public money? :lol: I don't buy it. Far more likely that he was paid to get the project cancelled.


indeed, but it shows just how easy it is for these foreign firms to find people willing to sell the nation for some money. And why would someone like Kalmadi care about India's aeronautical industry ? A corrupt madar**** and one who was known to be corrupt a long time ago, its only now that his kartoots are being caught red-handed. Probably he wanted it shelved so he could make some money on an imported fighter in place of the LCA.

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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Postby arunsrinivasan » 21 Jan 2011 09:01

Re. Bison vs LCA, while I appreciate this was triggered by ACM's remark, should we not be comparing it with a more modern fighter? e.g. what Pakistan or China will throw at us?

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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Postby babbupandey » 21 Jan 2011 09:10

Kartik wrote:indeed, but it shows just how easy it is for these foreign firms to find people willing to sell the nation for some money. And why would someone like Kalmadi care about India's aeronautical industry ? A corrupt madar**** and one who was known to be corrupt a long time ago, its only now that his kartoots are being caught red-handed. Probably he wanted it shelved so he could make some money on an imported fighter in place of the LCA.


Woah - someone is raging. Let's not stoop ourselves to that level. :)

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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Postby Cain Marko » 21 Jan 2011 09:18

Kartik wrote:[Thanks Karan, good post about the Tejas Mk1 comparison to the Bison. More things you can add to the Tejas vs Bison comparison-

-far more modern ejection seat, the Martin Baker Mk16 as compared to that on the Bison which is the KM-1M, one that is unchanged from the Bis.
-Far newer RWR is also planned for the later batches of Tejas called the R118. Will be a very modern system. Existing one is similar though
-Internal EW suite is also going to be integrated which is superior to the Elta 8222 SPJ pod that the Bison can carry with sacrifice one pylon. Already the Bison needs 2 drop tanks for any meaningful range, and with the 8222 pod, that only leaves 1 more pylon for a missile or bomb. Compared to the 7+1 pylons that are free on the Tejas with its internal EW.
-Plus, a self-diagnostic fault detection system to track any faults on the ground, which is not there on the Bison.
-modern avionics like VOR/TACAN. Not seen any mention of such systems on the Bison though it had ILS.


Add the OBOGS as well. And that is just mk1. And what about the industrywide beneifits gathered via the Tejas program. Even though it would be difficult to list all the subsidiary benefits, all the above along with Karan's post should be put up on the web somewhere and jackass DDM should be sent links to the same.

LCA - 101 anybody?

CM.

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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Postby Cain Marko » 21 Jan 2011 09:22

babbupandey wrote:Woah - someone is raging. Let's not stoop ourselves to that level. :)


Frankly, I think calling a spade - a spade, is a fine thing!

CM.

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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Postby SaiK » 21 Jan 2011 09:32

what about the open system architecture, avionics and mission computing and other mil standards stores management[endless possibility of air launches from astra to harpoons]? reconfigurable MFDs, and possible future AESA MMR (compare to elta2052), Kaveri, etc. don't forget the sudh desi ghee comms with no firangi controls. FLIR/IRST/MAWS/LDP, inflight refueling, supersonic at all altitudes, naval version, and most importantly the spin offs and baseline for NG AMCA platform.

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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Postby Sid » 21 Jan 2011 11:15

It doesn't matter how much we defend LCA project on BRF. Damage was already done on IOC day. Plus DDM kept on harping on same old issue, over-priced, old, will never fly blah blah blah. And we can bet even after it joins the IAF with full FOC, they will still find some problems with it.

Guess a self reliant dhoti shivering India is not in interest for some outside powers.

So lets leave it like it is, we know its gonna kick some enemy butt when time is right :mrgreen:.

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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Postby Singha » 21 Jan 2011 12:23

delhi based politicians probably have sons/relatives running lucrative 'import-export' houses or acting as agents of foreign suppliers and using political contacts to make the introductions and golf lunches necessary to cut deals. it a natural career for these people just like kids of film industry people following their parents into it.

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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Postby jai » 21 Jan 2011 12:31

babbupandey wrote:
Kartik wrote:indeed, but it shows just how easy it is for these foreign firms to find people willing to sell the nation for some money. And why would someone like Kalmadi care about India's aeronautical industry ? A corrupt madar**** and one who was known to be corrupt a long time ago, its only now that his kartoots are being caught red-handed. Probably he wanted it shelved so he could make some money on an imported fighter in place of the LCA.


Woah - someone is raging. Let's not stoop ourselves to that level. :)


:evil: The rage is justified. :x :x :evil: :evil:

Just look at the number of scams coming out (one every week ??) in the last 10 years...and just see how much the current Govt has acted against the accused and its clear that they do not seem to want to - obviously the real benefactors of these scams have been the high and mighty and clearly every attempt is being made to scuttle all ongoing investigations.

If you just add up the amounts of money under currently known scams (Commonwealth games + UP food scam + 2G Spectrum + money parked outside the country+++), it would be enough to complete the modernization of all three defense forces and have left over to fund indigenous defense industry and research as well.

I am sure nothing will come out of the current "MMRCA file case" as well. That lobbies are at play at the highest levels in the govt is a justified apprehension when you see incidents like specs for the BSF aircraft being changed within IAF/Def Min; and the "brass" opposing Indian products, while end users - test pilots in this case - seem to be saying something else. Same is the case with Arjun as well - the folks using it love it, while we see the comments of the generals and the number of orders being given.

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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Postby babbupandey » 21 Jan 2011 12:47

The good thing is that at least the scams are no longer getting successfully buried under papers, files and bribe money. Who knows how many scams of even greater magnitude took place and could not be brought in front of public.
While the rage is very much justified, my point is that we should not be stooping down to the level of Kalmadi, they are the dregs of our society.
Lobbying is common everywhere, no polity can ever be immune to lobbyists. Even USA, UK have lobbyists; but I think the defence minister has got his head in the right place and he is supportive of indigenisation, so the generals and marshals will have to at least listen even if they do not agree.

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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Postby Singha » 21 Jan 2011 13:25

the 1st squadron of Tejas @ Sulur should be named "The Cheetahs" and adopt as their logo a 3 legged picture of the noble beast. there is a plan afoot to reintroduce this extinct species in India using cheetahs gifted from friendly african governments.

the 2nd squadron of Tejas "The Dholes" should have a 3-legged Dhole as the logo.

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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Postby Lalmohan » 21 Jan 2011 13:30

the wild/hunting dog is a very formidable predator
nothing escapes them

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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Postby Rahul M » 21 Jan 2011 13:57

ramana ji, what else was available in IAF inventory ?


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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Postby Abhibhushan » 21 Jan 2011 16:35

^^^ There is no need to take the trouble of reading this trash. It is an unsigned article full of recycled crap.

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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Postby P Chitkara » 21 Jan 2011 18:41

When will the IAF squadron pilots start flying the LCA or at least start getting a feel of it?

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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Postby SaiK » 21 Jan 2011 19:48

getting back to jingo mode, lets start interpreting the way we wanted to appear.

3 legged Cheetah : ground attack, anti surface and the all supreme Air force version.
mig21++ : advisers of mig21s have been plus-plus-ed strengthened. {now we know, we can plan a counter attack}
3G aircraft: Not Guilty until proven - 3 G : engine, radar and incomplete stores.

..let's move on

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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Postby Rahul M » 21 Jan 2011 20:13

P Chitkara wrote:When will the IAF squadron pilots start flying the LCA or at least start getting a feel of it?

they have already started if things are going according to plan.

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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Postby sankum » 21 Jan 2011 22:43


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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Postby NRao » 21 Jan 2011 23:04



After that, why are people complaining I wonder!! Ascharyawat!

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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Postby SaiK » 22 Jan 2011 00:08

because of k-force.

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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Postby ramana » 22 Jan 2011 02:12

One lesson learned from the constant distancing of the IAF command to the LCA is to appoint a co-head from the air force right at the beginging of the project to ensure service commitment to a national prirority project. One whould never have to request/beg a service chief to witness the first flight of an Indian develop plane. Shows total lack of commitment through the whole life of the devleopment program from higher echelons. If service chiefs are not committed to Indian development of weapons what are they commtitted to? Flypasts?

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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Postby Sandeep_ghosh » 22 Jan 2011 02:22

I wonder why is indian media... especially print media so hell bent on discrediting the LCA. Is it really the cost overruns ...
Often mentioned about the a/c are 30 years to make... failure of kaveri engine, MMR radar... foreign engine etc....

Is there some kind of lobbyist group that wants to shutdown the program and ensure we are dependent on foreign supplies because i never hear them of talking about failures in 5 year plans .. green revolution .. national irrigation project.. national highway development ...national power grid..etc etc etc which apparently have been in development for nearly 60 years now.... but when it comes to LCA suddenly everyone has to draw their swords

Since the ioc of lca times group has been publishing nothing but crap about LCA and the entire program

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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Postby Wickberg » 22 Jan 2011 02:28

I´m just trying to do some math here.

The LCA-project hast cost some 4 billion US$? Is that for 20 or 40 LCA counted for?

Just wanted to get the figures right cause I am comparing them with the Gripen-project. When the last Gripen was delivered to the Swedish Air force a couple of years ago the cost of the entire system (204 aircrafts, the weapons, all the groundsystem etc etc etc etc etc. EVERYTHING that was related to Gripen) was estimated to almost 13.5 billion US$. That means the Swedish taxpayers had to pay some 65 mil. $ / plane. The last batch that was ordered only cost us 31 mil.$ /ac cause the rest of the were already in place.

An interesting note to you Indians. Several institutes have made researches on how the Gripen-deal has influenced Sweden as a whole and Swedish companies. The conclusion is that the Gripen-project have gained 260% back into Sweden in terms of money. That´s 2.6 in interest for every Krona we invested- back into Sweden. And not only talking about military companies. Ericsson for example had an extreme boom with the mobile-net and phones etc etc etc. There were hundreds of Swedish companies that expanded during this era of IT-revolution.
Just something to think about when it comes to LCA. It´s not just about a simple fighter, it´s about a system that can effect an entire country to the better.
Last edited by Wickberg on 22 Jan 2011 20:07, edited 1 time in total.


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