LCA News and Discussions

All threads that are locked or marked for deletion will be moved to this forum. The topics will be cleared from this archive on the 1st and 16th of each month.
Wickberg
BRFite
Posts: 246
Joined: 01 Jul 2008 18:45

Re: LCA News and Discussions

Postby Wickberg » 22 Jan 2011 02:38

Sandeep_ghosh wrote:I wonder why is indian media... especially print media so hell bent on discrediting the LCA. Is it really the cost overruns ...
Often mentioned about the a/c are 30 years to make... failure of kaveri engine, MMR radar... foreign engine etc....

Is there some kind of lobbyist group that wants to shutdown the program and ensure we are dependent on foreign supplies because i never hear them of talking about failures in 5 year plans .. green revolution .. national irrigation project.. national highway development ...national power grid..etc etc etc which apparently have been in development for nearly 60 years now.... but when it comes to LCA suddenly everyone has to draw their swords

Since the ioc of lca times group has been publishing nothing but crap about LCA and the entire program


I don´t know about french or american media. I can only speak for Swedish and "Eurofighter" media. And I promise you. Our media was/still is just as critical as yours. The Gripen have been in service for 15 years and still there are left-wing journalists who demand we "stop this Gripen-project", even tough the last Gripen was delivered to the SwAF a couple of years ago.

And during its development years.. Geezus christ! It did´nt help that when the 1st time media was invited to film the Gripen it crashed in front of them. And the 1st time it was shown to a large public it crashed in the middle of Stockholm in front of media all over the world and millions of audience during the Stockholm Water Festival. Now, THAT is bad luck. Still it carried on. Despite all odds. And now, it is a success.

nachiket
Forum Moderator
Posts: 6808
Joined: 02 Dec 2008 10:49

Re: LCA News and Discussions

Postby nachiket » 22 Jan 2011 02:40

Wickberg wrote:
I don´t know about french or american media. I can only speak for Swedish and "Eurofighter" media. And I promise you. Our media was/still is just as critical as yours. The Gripen have been in service for 15 years and still there are left-wing journalists who demand we "stop this Gripen-project", even tough the last Gripen was delivered to the SwAF a couple of years ago.

And during its development years.. Geezus christ! It did´nt help that when the 1st time media was invited to film the Gripen it crashed in front of them. And the 1st time it was shown to a large public it crashed in the middle of Stockholm in front of media all over the world and millions of audience during the Stockholm Water Festival. Now, THAT is bad luck. Still it carried on. Despite all odds. And now, it is a success.


Wickberg, even if one LCA had crashed during testing, regardless of whether it was in front of the Indian media, the whole project would have been cancelled and buried.

Wickberg
BRFite
Posts: 246
Joined: 01 Jul 2008 18:45

Re: LCA News and Discussions

Postby Wickberg » 22 Jan 2011 04:09

nachiket wrote:
Wickberg wrote:
I don´t know about french or american media. I can only speak for Swedish and "Eurofighter" media. And I promise you. Our media was/still is just as critical as yours. The Gripen have been in service for 15 years and still there are left-wing journalists who demand we "stop this Gripen-project", even tough the last Gripen was delivered to the SwAF a couple of years ago.

And during its development years.. Geezus christ! It did´nt help that when the 1st time media was invited to film the Gripen it crashed in front of them. And the 1st time it was shown to a large public it crashed in the middle of Stockholm in front of media all over the world and millions of audience during the Stockholm Water Festival. Now, THAT is bad luck. Still it carried on. Despite all odds. And now, it is a success.


Wickberg, even if one LCA had crashed during testing, regardless of whether it was in front of the Indian media, the whole project would have been cancelled and buried.


Why? Let me get this straight...
In the beginning of the 80s the IAF understood they needed a replacement for the MiG-21s within the next 15-20 years. They had a list of demands of what this aircraft should perform and a bunch of manufactures sent their offers, HAL was one of those and they got selected to replace to MiG-21s. Probably cause they had the best offer in terms of technology, serviceability, cost (of course) etc.
Would the Indian media have had an equal critic approach if India had chosen to get onboard the Eurofighter (with all its delays and cost overruns) 25 years ago or do you think it is just because it is an Indian project?.It´s funny, cause everything you write here about Indians criticizing their own people should be something unique- it´s not. In Scandinavia we call it "Jantelagen". It translates to something like "- You should not think that you are better then anyone else. If someone shows their better off (in any way) you should criticize that behavior and realize that no one is better then anyone else. If you happen to be rich/smart/strong etc etc etc, don´t show it. "

astal
BRFite
Posts: 158
Joined: 07 Jul 2005 03:06
Location: virtual back bench

Re: LCA News and Discussions

Postby astal » 22 Jan 2011 04:33

Wickberg,

Is it possible to link some of the studies that show the payoff to Sweden from the Gripen Program?

Your calculations of cost do not seem to incorporate inflation. You state that a total of 13 Billion dollars were released for the Gripen so far. It is important to know at what dates these amounts were released and account for inflation.

You also know that Sweden had a far more sophisticated aircraft design program at the outset when the Gripen was conceived. That level of sophistication is worth a lot of money but is not included in the cost of the Gripen.

For Tejas everything had to be pretty much made from scratch. Most of the money for Tejas has been allocated recently and Tejas has been the target of sanctions. So comparison between Tejas and Gripen time lines and cost is an apples to oranges comparison.

Here are some similarities between Tejas and Gripen. (They are actually too obvious to state)
1) Same base engine.
2) Possibly same radar if the ELTA 2052 is denied, India can also go in for the SAAB and SELEX Galileo radar.

Now there are differences in aerodynamics due to presence/absence of canards, different wing designs, different use of composites and other reasons.

The one point I will grant you is that the Gripen NG is already flying and the Tejas MK2 is still on the drawing board. But to me it appears likely that the Tejas team can close this gap within the next five years and make an aircraft with capabilities similar to the Gripen NG. (You may think this is wishful jingoism and are entitled to your opinion.)

I have lived in Sweden for a year. My opinion is that it is a homogeneous society and a mature democracy with a fiercely independent and patriotic population. Even the left wingers are far more moderate that Indian left wingers. (You do not have a Maoist revolution.)

In India, many politicians and leaders are not mature enough to understand the importance of a weapons program of this magnitude. There are very strong international lobbies that stand to lose a lot of money. They influence corrupt politicians, bureaucrats and journalists. This is far less likely in Sweden.

Finally since HAL are ADA are government undertakings they do not invest in PR, as opposed to say SAAB or Ericsson.

With this array of powerful forces against it, what is surprising is that Tejas has come so far. This is what makes one hopeful for the future . As a European skeptic though, you do not have to share this enthusiasm.

Wickberg
BRFite
Posts: 246
Joined: 01 Jul 2008 18:45

Re: LCA News and Discussions

Postby Wickberg » 22 Jan 2011 05:24

astal wrote:Wickberg,

Is it possible to link some of the studies that show the payoff to Sweden from the Gripen Program?

Your calculations of cost do not seem to incorporate inflation. You state that a total of 13 Billion dollars were released for the Gripen so far. It is important to know at what dates these amounts were released and account for inflation.

You also know that Sweden had a far more sophisticated aircraft design program at the outset when the Gripen was conceived. That level of sophistication is worth a lot of money but is not included in the cost of the Gripen.

For Tejas everything had to be pretty much made from scratch. Most of the money for Tejas has been allocated recently and Tejas has been the target of sanctions. So comparison between Tejas and Gripen time lines and cost is an apples to oranges comparison.

Here are some similarities between Tejas and Gripen. (They are actually too obvious to state)
1) Same base engine.
2) Possibly same radar if the ELTA 2052 is denied, India can also go in for the SAAB and SELEX Galileo radar.

Now there are differences in aerodynamics due to presence/absence of canards, different wing designs, different use of composites and other reasons.

The one point I will grant you is that the Gripen NG is already flying and the Tejas MK2 is still on the drawing board. But to me it appears likely that the Tejas team can close this gap within the next five years and make an aircraft with capabilities similar to the Gripen NG. (You may think this is wishful jingoism and are entitled to your opinion.)

I have lived in Sweden for a year. My opinion is that it is a homogeneous society and a mature democracy with a fiercely independent and patriotic population. Even the left wingers are far more moderate that Indian left wingers. (You do not have a Maoist revolution.)

In India, many politicians and leaders are not mature enough to understand the importance of a weapons program of this magnitude. There are very strong international lobbies that stand to lose a lot of money. They influence corrupt politicians, bureaucrats and journalists. This is far less likely in Sweden.

Finally since HAL are ADA are government undertakings they do not invest in PR, as opposed to say SAAB or Ericsson.

With this array of powerful forces against it, what is surprising is that Tejas has come so far. This is what makes one hopeful for the future . As a European skeptic though, you do not have to share this enthusiasm.



First of all. I am skeptical of the LCA project as I have followed it mine entire life. I remember when I was a little kid at the age of 10-12 buying those Bill Gunston books, specially the ones about fighters of the future and reading about Gripen, Kfir, LCA and such. Back in the days during the cold war we had not only a handful of countries producing fighters, there were 2-3 handfuls. And I loved it- G-91, AMX, the Yugoslavian and Romanian jets and so on. Today is so boring, you got USA, and in the future probably a common European fighter, the Russians and perhaps China. That is a sad future...

About inflation. That has been calculated into these figures. IIRC the last Gripen to SweAF was delivered in dec. 1998 and after that all anti-gripen/left-wing journalists were like hawks and showed how much it had cost us Swedish taxpayers. It landed around 100 billion SEK, and they immediately started to compare how many doctors we could have hired for that sum, or how many day care centers that could have been built etc etc. So that shows journalists are not smarter in Sweden then they are in India.

And yes, I know all about LCA and the struggle about Indias avionics industry. That is why I wrote that part earlier. For every penny Sweden invested in the Gripen we got 2.6 pennies back in our cash register. As always when you start a new business it it will be only costs and no revenues. But if you have the right product, and hang on, it will come back multiplied.

And the difference about Sweden and India. Well, I have never lived in India. But I have had some some dealing with companies in South America. And all this corruption thing.....
What can I say? Corruption is the Nr1 cause that hinder countries from developing and being efficient. In Sweden, there is no corruption. India is on place nr 87 after countries like Albania, Rwanda, Namibia and Georgia.
If India gets rid of corruption, then it will be a superpower.

Edit: About that PR thing that HAL ADA is´nt doing. I don´t know. There are millions of Indians who knows programming and can pull off a decent webpage, it would´nt cost them a dime. Is it because they are a state owned company? (My guess it has something to do with corruption)

shiv
BRF Oldie
Posts: 35017
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: Pindliyon ka Gooda

Re: LCA News and Discussions

Postby shiv » 22 Jan 2011 06:27

Wickberg wrote:Edit: About that PR thing that HAL ADA is´nt doing. I don´t know. There are millions of Indians who knows programming and can pull off a decent webpage, it would´nt cost them a dime. Is it because they are a state owned company? (My guess it has something to do with corruption)


Interesting observation.

My first guess about the answer is as follows. Indian government companies follow a hierarchical system where age is given priority over capability. If you are a great worker and innovator and I am a dud who has been in the organization 30 years - I get seniority over you and if I am worried or jealous about your ability _ I can pull my rank over you and shut you up or ensure that you leave and go to work for a private or foreign company that recognizes talent and pays better.

The retirement age in a government company is perhaps 60 or 62. The CEO of a Indian government organization is likely to be - say 59-60 years old on 2011. That means he finished college about 35 years ago - in 1975. He is most likely computer illiterate. Indian with computing skills are those Indians who were about 10 or 12 years old when the computer revolution took off in India - that is about 1990. The CEO of today would have been about 40 years then and would consider that fancy new-fangled stuff that he cannot handle. The oldest seriously computer literate person in India with programming skills is most likely to be in his mid to late 30s. (except me 8) ) ) In India this generation of old codgers has to retire, and the juniors have to become more senior. Maybe 5-10 years. It will happen in my lifetime, I am happy to say.

Also want to point out that in 1992 an Intel 486 based computer with 80 MB hard disk and 4 MB RAM cost over Rs 1 lakh (100,000) - which was more than the monthly salary of most Indians. I could not afford a 486 in 1992, I bought an Intel 286 with 1 MB ram, 80 MB hard drive, MSDOS 3 and was told by a computer literate relative that 80 MB was too much and that a 20 MB hard drive would have been enough for me. I paid Rs 45,000 or so which is about US$ 1000 at today's exchange rates.

Singha
BRF Oldie
Posts: 66406
Joined: 13 Aug 2004 19:42
Location: the grasshopper lies heavy

Re: LCA News and Discussions

Postby Singha » 22 Jan 2011 07:15

> Also want to point out that in 1992 an Intel 486 based computer with 80 MB hard disk and 4 MB RAM cost over Rs 1 lakh (100,000) - which was more than the monthly salary of most Indians

sir my gross ANNUAL salary in 1997 "top" pvt sector IT co after PG from a "top" eng school was 1.8 lakhs...you probably meant ANNUAL not monthly salary.

Gurneesh
BRFite
Posts: 470
Joined: 14 Feb 2010 21:21
Location: Troposphere

Re: LCA News and Discussions

Postby Gurneesh » 22 Jan 2011 07:22

shiv wrote:
Wickberg wrote:Edit: About that PR thing that HAL ADA is´nt doing. I don´t know. There are millions of Indians who knows programming and can pull off a decent webpage, it would´nt cost them a dime. Is it because they are a state owned company? (My guess it has something to do with corruption)


Interesting observation.

My first guess about the answer is as follows. Indian government companies follow a hierarchical system where age is given priority over capability. If you are a great worker and innovator and I am a dud who has been in the organization 30 years - I get seniority over you and if I am worried or jealous about your ability _ I can pull my rank over you and shut you up or ensure that you leave and go to work for a private or foreign company that recognizes talent and pays better.



Another reason would be the mindset of most government employees have (or made to have).

Firstly, there is this developing nation notion that every one has. So, all government creations (websites, buildings, bridges etc.) are most likely to be extremely dull. The reason being that since we are a developing nation, we should be happy that there is a building and not crib about how it looks or how well it was built. Same with the ADA website. It works and gives some information, so who cares if it looks cheap. You know the whole "bechara" dhoti shiver attitude.

Secondly, most government employees are referred to as (some even referred themselves as) public servants. This means the work done is their duty so they do not get to brag about or advertise it. This stupid "over humility" still kills India.

Then there are the antiquated rules and guidelines that they have to follow.

These (along with what shiv mentioned) are very big factors why government establishments are such boring places to work and also why their work efficiency is poor.

Ex. there was some food quality related issue in our univ so we complained. The immediate reply from the mess official (gov employee) was that we should be thankful to be studying here as there are lakhs of students who would want to be in our place. After much pestering and involvement of professors we got what we wanted though.

But times seem to be changing for the better now...

aditya.agd
BRFite
Posts: 174
Joined: 28 Apr 2010 00:37

Re: LCA News and Discussions

Postby aditya.agd » 22 Jan 2011 07:30

we should not pay attention to the news reporters who are publishing paid articles from vested interests. It is better to develop and use our own technology than to pay more money abroad.

SaiK
BRF Oldie
Posts: 36292
Joined: 29 Oct 2003 12:31
Location: NowHere

Re: LCA News and Discussions

Postby SaiK » 22 Jan 2011 07:58

In a democratic setup, one can't just ignore articles no matter who pays for them. As a responsible citizen who regards the right of speech, must share his/her views in any open forum. Internet is a blessing!, so is BR. "WE" ignore does not solve the problem.

Pogula
BRFite -Trainee
Posts: 41
Joined: 22 Jan 2011 08:04

Re: LCA News and Discussions

Postby Pogula » 22 Jan 2011 08:35

After a tortuous journey of 27 years, with over 1,500 flight-tests and almost 3,000% jump in overall developmental costs, the much-touted but long-delayed Tejas Light Combat Aircraft has finally taken the first step towards induction as a supersonic fighter into IAF.

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/india/27-years-3000-cost-hike-later-Tejas-takes-off/articleshow/7254769.cms

This really annoys me. Both the editor and the journalist at TOI must have been paid off to write such BS. Let us do a rough (partially scientific) investigation of this "3000% jump" claims.

Rs.500 Crores were sanctioned for the project in 1985 and the current R&D cost as of 2010 is around 3,300 crores.
Source:
In 1985, the defence ministry decided to build a light combat aircraft to replace the ageing MiGs. A sum of Rs 500 crore was set aside for it. (The final bill is Rs 3,248 crore.)

http://www.bharatrakshak.com/NEWS/newsrf.php?newsid=14247

According to currency exchange rates of 1985, $1 = Rs.12.369. Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_rupee#Valuation_history
Hence, the Rs.500 Crores would have been valued at $404.236397 Millions.
As per American inflation, those $404.2364 Millions would be worth $829.0071 Millions. Source: http://www.dollartimes.com/calculators/inflation.htm
This sum, as per today's exchange rate (rounded estimation) would be around Rs.3780.2723 Crores. Source: http://www.advfn.com/currency-converter/us-dollar-to-rupee.html

Ok, so basically after all the beating around the bush, my point is that Rs. 500 crores in 1985 is worth more than Rs. 3,780 crores today. :eek:

Wait a minutes!!! Does this mean HAL saved some money? :roll:

But again, one would realize after the smoke clears that in today's funding terms, HAL was given Rs. 3,780 Crores to start their project and then more sums were added to it in intervals. If we calculate their net worth in today's market, I am sure it will hit Billions of Dollars.

I started out trying to defend HAL, but that math has confused me. :shock:
Looks like HAL did suck up a lot of tax payers' money for Tejas. :cry:

Kanson
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2949
Joined: 20 Oct 2006 21:00

Re: LCA News and Discussions

Postby Kanson » 22 Jan 2011 09:08

Pogula wrote:
After a tortuous journey of 27 years, with over 1,500 flight-tests and almost 3,000% jump in overall developmental costs, the much-touted but long-delayed Tejas Light Combat Aircraft has finally taken the first step towards induction as a supersonic fighter into IAF.

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/india/27-years-3000-cost-hike-later-Tejas-takes-off/articleshow/7254769.cms

This really annoys me. Both the editor and the journalist at TOI must have been paid off to write such BS. Let us do a rough (partially scientific) investigation of this "3000% jump" claims.


ADA explained how they completed their Phase-I within the budget. You may google for the document.

Evey idiot who mindlessly go on rampage to shout out of the lungs as cost-overrun must be shamed and a$$ handed back to him. Whoever might be the gentlemen who cry hoarse at the top of the lungs, whether it is Adm Arun Prakash or just another two bit lifafa journalist like Shiv Aroor, they must be asked to explain how that is so and why that is significant to highlight that at every juncture.

ramana
Forum Moderator
Posts: 52335
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30

Re: LCA News and Discussions

Postby ramana » 22 Jan 2011 09:25

I think a group within are trying to tarnish it. Its not outsiders.

Rahul M
Forum Moderator
Posts: 16757
Joined: 17 Aug 2005 21:09
Location: Skies over BRFATA
Contact:

Re: LCA News and Discussions

Postby Rahul M » 22 Jan 2011 09:52

Pogula wrote:I started out trying to defend HAL, but that math has confused me. :shock:
Looks like HAL did suck up a lot of tax payers' money for Tejas. :cry:

the final budget includes the original 500 Cr.

AJames
BRFite -Trainee
Posts: 43
Joined: 23 Feb 2002 12:31

Re: LCA News and Discussions

Postby AJames » 22 Jan 2011 14:04

nachiket wrote:
AJames wrote:There is a cardinal rule in aircraft development that says that you should never develop a completely new airframe to go with a completely new engine. A new airframe should always use a known existing engine. The reason is that the power requirements for new airframes always go up, ...

But if the power requirements for a new airframe always go up, even the pre-selected existing engine will fall short eventually, since it will be selected based on the earlier power requirements.


Yes, but it is a lot easier, quicker and cheaper to switch one existing engine for another, like the F414 is being switched for the F404. Of course it doesn't need to be so dramatic - most developed engines have several lifetime upgrades, so you can pick upgraded versions of the same existing engine if power requirements go up. If you have to do this with a new engine, you have to dump what you have done already and start again and it takes a lot longer to do that than simply switch engines.

shiv wrote:
AJames wrote: There is a cardinal rule in aircraft development that says that you should never develop a completely new airframe to go with a completely new engine



You know James, I have often made this statement myself and after making it 20 times on the forum some new thoughts began to occur to me.

If you look at some of the earliest aircraft developments - when desperate nations were at war and in desperate mortal danger (and I am referring to WW1 and WW2) many countries have actually put new engines on new aircraft and faced consequences. It is only after doing this that they have developed enough expertise to cockily lecture SDRE newbies that new engines must not go in mew airframes. Nothing fundamentally wrong in the advice - but it serves as one experience of foreign rule that Indians will cling to.

Fast forward to the 21st century and hey presto the F-35 is going to have a brand new engine. the excuse is that the engine makers are experienced and will produce something safe. But the Chinese Project 718/J-20 too will certainly have a new engine if it is not already being tested on a new engine. So at some stage India will have to become bold and do what needs to be done.



The F35 is a good example of this principle. Yes it has a new engine, and is has the corresponding delays, cost overruns, and engine problems to prove the principle - the VTOL version's engine in particular has lots of problems, and the UK has cancelled the VTOL version and gone for the CTOL version as a result, but even that is delayed. The F35 is the USA's LCA in effect.

Taking a risk by doing both at the same time is sometimes necessary, but if you do that, expect delays, cost over runs etc. that's part of the course, and it isn't fair to be overcritical of those involved in development if these happen subsequently. The criticism should be reserved for those who chose that path in the first place if the requirement to replace MiG 21s was time critical.

Cain Marko
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3474
Joined: 26 Jun 2005 10:26

Re: LCA News and Discussions

Postby Cain Marko » 22 Jan 2011 14:48

AWST article crosslinked from Naval Discussion THread:
The navy’s apprehensions over platform thrust are much more apparent now, with service sources suggesting that even the F414 is not powerful enough to satisfy the flight envelope they would like for carrier operations.

http://www.aviationweek.com/aw/generic/story_generic.jsp?topicName=india&id=news/awx/2011/01/20/awx_01_20_2011_p0-284536.xml

Talking of trouble due to TWR, increased empty weight of Naval Tejas would mean a challenge for sure, but not unsurmountable imho. One assumes that an a/c requires uber thrust to manage STOBAR ops (as on the Gorky/IAC) - but this requirement is not too dramatic; the current MiG-29K for example, can manage a max payload of 5500kg externally with an empty TWR of 12300:18000 ~ 1.46. At MTOW for stobar ops, it has a TWR of 0.70. The Su-33 is in similar shape, and actually has a lower TWR comparable to NLCA.

The current Tejas is approximately 6500kg. For the mk2 version, they intend to drop some weight, however, there will be weight additions as well - AESA, engine, (possible strengthening if they want to increase payload capacity). So if the IAF Tejas mk2 version settles at 6500kg, I'd be mighty pleased. This gives an empty TWR of 6500:10000 ~ 1.53. If the internal fuel weight stays the same - 2500kg, we are looking at an MTOW of 15000kg (payload ~ 5500kg) giving you a TWR of 0.70.

Now the NLCA is a different ballgame altogether - it'll require additional landing gear strengthening and hook/arrestor, normally a weight increase of about 500-700kg resulting in an empty weight of ~ 7200kg+, TWR ~ 1.38. I would think that this would most definitely hamper its ability to carry a payload matching the landbased version possibly a good 20-25% ~ 4000kg @ a TWR of 0.70 ~ similar to the MiG-29K. The other problem is the fuel fraction (2500:7200 is not particularly awesome). HOwever, if they some how manage to increse internal fuel capacity ala GripenNG, it will help. Of course, this means a lower payload, but still around 3500-4000kg.

THis is not too bad at all, and compares rather favorably with the SU-33, emtpy TWR of 1.35 and MTOW TWR of 0.75. As such the NLCA should definitely do a nice job of providing A2A support for the CBG with 2 X EFTs + 4-6 odd AAMs or even antishipping duties. Challenging, but nothing new or unsurmountable. Definitely a performance jump over the Shar. OTOH, if they expect heavier carrier based fighters to carry loads comparable to land based versions, ditch the Stobar ops and get some cats!

CM.

nrshah
BRFite
Posts: 574
Joined: 10 Feb 2009 16:36

Re: LCA News and Discussions

Postby nrshah » 22 Jan 2011 15:42

With respect to DDM, it think just cribbing on BR will not be enough...

I took the following approach to fight DDM (Our first rate and very current threat)... Dont know if it will help, but still i will fight...

Nitin Shah
Dear Mr. Pandit,Please clarify whether the while highlighting cost inflation from 560 crs to over 17000 crs, have you considered time value of money?

Was the 560crs total budget or was it just of project definition phase?

Have you compared the time frame for other countries developing comparable aircraft before showing it a very delayed... project? Notwithstanding this is our first venture of this scale...

Had you bothered to ask if it is already Bison why are we placing order only for 40? Ideally we should have replaced all "FLYING COFFINS" as you call it, by BISON

Your comments about Kaveri cost is not even half informed to be very polite... You yourself have said it to be around 600 mn USD... compare the same with EJ 200, or Snecma m 53... all
have cost over 2 bn usd...

Do you understand the enormous capability it has added to infrastructure and industry?

Lastly, thanks for such poor reporting...See More
Tejas has just reached semi-final stage: Antony - The Times of India
timesofindia.indiatimes.com


The above comment was added by me on the FB and comments section of the story as well and it recd 3 agreements... Also go thru the article and see comments section... gives you a hope that masses have started realizing what DDM is and how the same should dealt with...

Wickberg
BRFite
Posts: 246
Joined: 01 Jul 2008 18:45

Re: LCA News and Discussions

Postby Wickberg » 22 Jan 2011 20:19

astal wrote:Wickberg,

Is it possible to link some of the studies that show the payoff to Sweden from the Gripen Program?

Finally since HAL are ADA are government undertakings they do not invest in PR, as opposed to say SAAB or Ericsson.

With this array of powerful forces against it, what is surprising is that Tejas has come so far. This is what makes one hopeful for the future . As a European skeptic though, you do not have to share this enthusiasm.


I will try to find the link to those studies (it was 2-3 years ago) but they were all in Swedish. Perhaps google translater can make it into comprehensible Indian.

Ericsson Microwave Systems (and all Ericsson military connected products) were bought by SAAB a long time ago.

The fact that I am european should´nt count. I´m a aviation fighter jet nerd and would love to see a new fighter in the air (LCA). But sitting at outside the fences and looking at this project with unbiased eyes mine enthusiasm have diminished over the years, heck we´re now talking about decades...

Wickberg
BRFite
Posts: 246
Joined: 01 Jul 2008 18:45

Re: LCA News and Discussions

Postby Wickberg » 22 Jan 2011 21:09

Marten wrote:Wickberg:
As your very keen eyes might have also noticed, most Indians speak a language called ENGLISH, not INDIAN.
Thank you.


I´m sorry. Mea culpa :oops:


But english is not the 1st language is´nt it? I am not gonna google or Wiki this. Is it called Hindu? Indian-Hindu?

shiv
BRF Oldie
Posts: 35017
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: Pindliyon ka Gooda

Re: LCA News and Discussions

Postby shiv » 22 Jan 2011 21:11

Wickberg wrote:But english is not the 1st language is´nt it? I am not gonna google or Wiki this. Is it called Hindu? Indian-Hindu?


Hindi. Spoken by about 60% of Indians.

Wickberg
BRFite
Posts: 246
Joined: 01 Jul 2008 18:45

Re: LCA News and Discussions

Postby Wickberg » 22 Jan 2011 21:39

shiv wrote:
Wickberg wrote:But english is not the 1st language is´nt it? I am not gonna google or Wiki this. Is it called Hindu? Indian-Hindu?


Hindi. Spoken by about 60% of Indians.


OT. Just out of curiosity, what language does the other 40% speaks? Pakistanian (I know it´s not arabic, is it Persian?) , or Bangladeshian? (Yes, I know I can google this but I honestly does not have a clue and would like to learn from real people living in the real India). Bangladeshian is´nt even a language I´m guessing...

babbupandey
BRFite
Posts: 180
Joined: 15 Jan 2008 16:53

Re: LCA News and Discussions

Postby babbupandey » 22 Jan 2011 21:55

LOL@Pakistanian and Bangladeshian

Buddy, you need to pay a visit to India soon. I am sure many BRFites would love to provide you with accommodation and guided tours.

uddu
BRFite
Posts: 1829
Joined: 15 Aug 2004 17:09

Re: LCA News and Discussions

Postby uddu » 22 Jan 2011 21:57

Wickberg, you're correct in the sense that they are Indian languages. We Indians are really blessed to have so many beautiful languages. And by the way it's Bengali and not Bangladeshin or something of that sort.

Pogula
BRFite -Trainee
Posts: 41
Joined: 22 Jan 2011 08:04

Re: LCA News and Discussions

Postby Pogula » 22 Jan 2011 22:18

Marten wrote:You mean ADA.

1. You should start with comparisons with other programs.
2. Funding a new program with peanuts, incomplete/evolving ASRs, and optimistic program managers means there will be escalation. Which a/c program doesn't have cost escalations? If you want to build a house, can you start with a budget of Rs 2 lacs and then claim escalation costs when land itself costs Rs 50 lacs and construction costs are Rs 25 lacs?
3. If one starts analysis with improper logic and inadequate information, how will one arrive at a correct conclusion? :roll:

Edited to add: This isn't the first ID you've used on BRF, eh Rocky?


Hi! Marten,

yes, I meant ADA.

1. There is no other similar "4th gen from the scratch" program within the same time period to compare to.

2. I do realize ADA/HAL/DRDO are usually given peanuts for R&D funding. But, if you consider all funds allocated for the Tejas program over the years and correct them for inflation, I am sure the final "real" cost would be much more than what is claimed in public. But again, it is like a squint eyed beauty among the blind :) if you look at EF Typhoon or JSF programs in comparison :evil:

3. I was thinking and calculating while I was typing. It was as if I was thinking aloud. I don't mind being wrong. Informed people will correct me, like you just did, and I'll learn from it :D

Yes! You guessed right 8) I am Rahul Pogula (Rocky is my nickname). I was on this forum early last year, but a hectic life made it difficult for me to visit the site over the past few months. I forgot my ID and password and so created a new one. Any idea how I can recover my old ID?

By the way, if you remember my posts from last year, I have and still am a strong supporter of the Tejas program. I love that bird, after all is said and done.

Pogula
BRFite -Trainee
Posts: 41
Joined: 22 Jan 2011 08:04

Re: LCA News and Discussions

Postby Pogula » 22 Jan 2011 22:24

Rahul M wrote:the final budget includes the original 500 Cr.


Rahul,

I know the final amount includes the initial funds too, but as Rs. 500 crores only, and not re-evaluated to the actual market value of about Rs. 3,700 crores before adding it to the final "figure". The current "figure" being thrown around in the news is just ambiguous and faulty. The real cost of Tejas is much much more than the Rs. 3,300 crores or so that they claim it is. I am just trying to understand the "real" total cost of the Tejas program.

But again, sorry to sound like one of the anti-Tejas trolls. I really am not. I do realize that Tejas is still one of the most cost-effective programs ever if you consider how they jumped from 2nd generation to 4.5 generation in less than 20 years with so many external and internal hurdles.

Wickberg
BRFite
Posts: 246
Joined: 01 Jul 2008 18:45

Re: LCA News and Discussions

Postby Wickberg » 22 Jan 2011 22:43

babbupandey wrote:LOL@Pakistanian and Bangladeshian

Buddy, you need to pay a visit to India soon. I am sure many BRFites would love to provide you with accommodation and guided tours.


I think I have to. Is ganja still legal? Or semi-legal in the tourist spots?

If any BRF meets up I will bring a can of surströmming that we can throw across the Pakistanian border.

Edit: While screaming in Bangladeshian; Eat this you motherf*ckers!"

ramana
Forum Moderator
Posts: 52335
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30

Re: LCA News and Discussions

Postby ramana » 22 Jan 2011 23:04

I don't get the drive o determine the 'true' cost of LCA? Is the true cost of NREGS etc pursued with so much zeal? The plane is ready. The costs include setting up infrastructure and resources. And even then its cheaper than any other fighter plane.

There are some bloody minded 'critics' for whatever reasons want to run it down. And its shame the are everywhere. If given the challenge they can't even design or select an aircraft standard screw fastener joint but can critique it. Is not just "dus number panna and tight karo!"

and for those who want the ture cost do you account for the time value of money and the excahnge rate and the lack of funding at crucial stages?

Eg. when funds are needed at X year and they are provided at X+N years they have to be much more to make up for the program delay.

How come there is little angst from IN officers, retired and serving about ATV than the IAF cohort about the LCA? Inst it due to commitment to a national priority goal? IOW, IAF cohort is glad to fly any plane even if tis crippled at any price so long as its not locally designed and made? And not content with pissing on its coming out parade they feed half baked mis truths to agenda driven media who run with the propaganda for TRPs.

Arya Sumantra
BRFite
Posts: 558
Joined: 02 Aug 2008 11:47
Location: Deep Freezer

Re: LCA News and Discussions

Postby Arya Sumantra » 23 Jan 2011 00:54

We are still lucky that we are a country with lower costs in manufacturing, designing and r&d. But self-reliance is important for everyone. Are the critics telling us that we would not have been into this if not for low costs? Its our own even if the costs were not competitive. That our costs are low is a bonus. Look at the europeans. Everything that france or germany or sweden builds could be bought much cheaper elsewhere. Yet they build their own solutions and push their own expertise. Sure they are more advanced but they had their learning iterations early on so its all hunky dory for them. Soon we too would have it.

One must not look at sums spent on Tejas in isolation. What we spent on Tejas will fetch monetary rewards from exports in second or third product from now. First product is not a blockbuster.

As it is, we are increasingly becoming a country of kursi-tod, suit-dhari power-point heroes and code yuppies, a legacy of over-influence of Uncle and under-influence of Japan, Germany, Korea on our country. Aeronautics is one value-added manufacturing that holds promise wherein we could advance in manufacturing. We need to push this just like we did in automobiles.

------
By now, the game is - Throw a chappal at Tejas and earn some baksheesh. After angoothachhap journos, profs very soon even the clerks retiring from IAF will be writing to us what's wrong with Tejas.

Wickberg
BRFite
Posts: 246
Joined: 01 Jul 2008 18:45

Re: LCA News and Discussions

Postby Wickberg » 23 Jan 2011 02:58

Marten wrote:OT: dude, that is funny, but why are you trying to get banned? :)


Trying to get banned? Heck no, why would I do that? If anything I have written break any rules please inform me. If I come out as hars it´s my Viking-genes, I´m honest and tell the truth. If that don´t suite some people, f*ck them....

Rishirishi
BRFite
Posts: 1042
Joined: 12 Mar 2005 02:30

Re: LCA News and Discussions

Postby Rishirishi » 23 Jan 2011 03:27

Talking about costs. Consider the following.

1
How did Bangalore become the technological hub it is today? Because of some small investments into the defence sector. That is where the employees were recruited from initially.

2
Any dollar spend in India will generate another 4 dollars worth of business activity. A dollar spent abroad is a dollar lost to the economy. So even if the cost is 3 times in India, it is still worth the effort.

3
You cant compare the development time and costs of Gripen with LCA. Because the Gripen team had the benefit of experiance. To design the first fighter, on had to start from scratch. The initial startup costs must be acknowledged. The capability to produce defence equipment costs money. It does not come for free.


Let me be a bit critical as well.
We have seen how misrable the PSU,s have fared. From Scoters, hotels, Airlines etc. The defence labs are managed on similar lines. So failures should not come as a great surprise. To produce tease systems private sector must be involved. GOI should try to study how US and other countries are managing this.

SaiK
BRF Oldie
Posts: 36292
Joined: 29 Oct 2003 12:31
Location: NowHere

Re: LCA News and Discussions

Postby SaiK » 23 Jan 2011 06:29

Most importantly, that is told 100s of times that Gripen's initial design was not on total indigenous plan which Tejas and India took, that later realized it was too ambitious for the technology level we had then. But, the advantage of such a risky proposal gets steroid shots, say when sanctions happen or some one bans sales to India. Nothing to beat that Indian performance oomph when they are threatened of non performance.

I think russians should ban helping Kaveri like Israel has done on 2052., to get that driver in action. But it might not, if there is no national prestige projection on the GTRE project. As of now, it is all bashing and brainless harping.

Yagnasri
BRF Oldie
Posts: 9446
Joined: 29 May 2007 18:03

Re: LCA News and Discussions

Postby Yagnasri » 23 Jan 2011 06:44

Something about PSU's - The Banks in the PSU done well. What every you may say PSU Heavy Eng units done well. But the main thing is the politicos and their useless actions in runing PSU units. Pvt Companies are not so great and if any PSU can be professionally managed it can perform as good as if not better than any private unit. HAL/ADA performence in the case of LCA is not so bad is also an indication in the same direction and points to the dedication and commitment of the people involved.

putnanja
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4421
Joined: 26 Mar 2002 12:31
Location: searching for the next al-qaida #3

Re: LCA News and Discussions

Postby putnanja » 23 Jan 2011 06:50

Another thing to remember is that though Rs 500 cr was sanctioned initially, the whole amount wasn't invested in one go. It was slowly utilized over a period of years. So to take the year the project was sanctioned and to calculate the cost of the program based on the exchange rate at that time is not right. Even if one takes Rs 500 crores at the time the project was sanctioned, the cost of comparative programs in other countries even at that time would have indicated that 500cr was a fraction of other programs at the time.

SaiK
BRF Oldie
Posts: 36292
Joined: 29 Oct 2003 12:31
Location: NowHere

Re: LCA News and Discussions

Postby SaiK » 23 Jan 2011 06:59

If LCA Mk2 gets an AESA MMR, especially with its BVR weapons you all will definitely see bigger smiles. But, it may be a similar tussle as DRDO faced with Arjun vs T90. For LCA, it depends on the config. I am sure it is going to taken on the MRCA candidate especially on RCS and BVR.

shiv
BRF Oldie
Posts: 35017
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: Pindliyon ka Gooda

Re: LCA News and Discussions

Postby shiv » 23 Jan 2011 07:08

I am not about to jump up and claim that PSUs are comparable to the Tatas, Birlas or Infosys. But like gutter cleaning they served a need that would be fulfilled by no one else. India has one of the most ancient capitalist systems in the world - starting with the distribution and sale of agricultural produce and the archetypal Marwari businessman. But they run profitable businesses.

India's public sector undertakings were set up like Intensive Care Units - a lot of money down the drain to keep something alive or breathe life into an almost dead system. Bangalore had ITI which manufactured all the telecom equipment in India's creaky old phone system and a BEL supporting electronics in India. These provided the seed manpower for the new India.

HAL was a private company - Walchand Hirachand (did someone say Marwari?) - which was taken over for WW2. For all its inefficiencies - that place has put India on the map as an aircraft design,manufacture and overhaul hub. There are some things that cannot be done profitably by private concerns. Small production runs of 100 or 150 sophisticated items custom built for a new aircraft that require an entire production line to be built.

Secondly there are some technologies that the private sector just did not have. Oh yes the private sector in the west had that tech. But the west is west, not India. Their history is different. No use asking why Tatas cannot do what McDonell Douglas did. They just did not do it. While we note the presence of small innovative companies that produced unique parts for the LCA we also need to recall that the DRDO is looking for private partners to produce thousand of little items for which they have the tech, but need a private company to set up a large scale manufacturing unit. For a private operator to do that it has to be profitable. For it to be profitable it he has to have volumes. For volumes to happen there should be exports. For exports there has to be some intergovernmental wheeling and dealing.

That is what all these "offsets" in defence purchases are all about. India agrees to buy fighter X from country Y. In exchange country Y sources Z percentage of components from a private Indian firm that will tie up with country Y. Is it any surprise that this will take time? The private sector in India, contrary to popular opinion just does not have what it takes to make say AESA, MMW seekers or single crystal blades. Either they don't have the tech, or the money, or existing production lines, or the incentive. If they did India would be producing and exporting all that stuff and making a profit.

I must put a personal twist to this. In the 1980s when I first went to the UK I was struck by how (in the UK) when you traveled miles and miles by train, the countryside scenery was frequently broken by industries. At that time in India this was never the case. India was hundreds of miles of unbroken agricultural land or just plain countryside. This is changing now. But that is what "industrialization" means.
Last edited by shiv on 23 Jan 2011 08:50, edited 1 time in total.

ramana
Forum Moderator
Posts: 52335
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30

Re: LCA News and Discussions

Postby ramana » 23 Jan 2011 07:38

Not to mention McDonell Douglas and others did with their govt and services buying from them and not running them down. Read about how Boeing built the early built the early bomber aircraft in the 1930s despite repeated crashes and that lead to the Flying Fortress. They had constant support from the Army Air Force because they envisaged such a weapon and weren't going to give up till they got one! The ones who claimed it costs too much were working for the other companies. Not the service.

Singha
BRF Oldie
Posts: 66406
Joined: 13 Aug 2004 19:42
Location: the grasshopper lies heavy

Re: LCA News and Discussions

Postby Singha » 23 Jan 2011 08:44

ultimately those kind of quantum leaps seen in UK/US/Germany/USSR in defence industry and overall pace of doing things are driven by total war - when the very existence of a nation is at stake (or in the case of US - its main allies and trade markets in europe & its far eastern resource bases like australia). massive funding and big risks were taken as a matter of course, because no other option existed. with most men away fighting, women were trained and put to work assembling planes and tanks and building bombs. kids hardly in their teens went around with panzerfausts blowing up tanks, old men in their 70s took a rifle in one hand and a walking cane in another and went off to fight. english farmers were ready with lathis and pitchforks to defend their farms against hitlers legions. anyone with a boat bigger than dinghy volunteered to sail for dunkirk and bring back survivors.

india general population has been insulated from the ravages of enemy occupation and total war. the sneering people who post comments in media outlets about "why cannot india do what boeing does" and "what is use of tejas , its 30 years behind the curve" are a product of that environment.
Last edited by Singha on 23 Jan 2011 08:47, edited 1 time in total.

SaiK
BRF Oldie
Posts: 36292
Joined: 29 Oct 2003 12:31
Location: NowHere

Re: LCA News and Discussions

Postby SaiK » 23 Jan 2011 08:47

^^(American companies) The support came within because of the desire to use home grown and developed platforms for security and defense. Wherever they felt brain crunch they paid larger salary to imported brains and hired them with lavish lifestyles. Where India can't afford to that. They have to depend on low salaried ragged dhoti shivering sdres to build fantastic systems that rival khan crafts, in the midst of the dorkiest possible media campaign against them aided by foreign vested interests to keep them subdued. India political system also aided such corruption to happen largely on the basis of capability not yet established, hence all that is foreign is simple superb, and all the ragged dhoties create, are inferior crap., hence they would never bump up the investments there.

Thanks to nehruvian IITs and sdre yuppies, who consistently fought many hurdles to improve and some ventured to khan nations to earn better, and some returned back to support home grown systems with total patriotism (and those are the people we are hurting we call Tejas a mig21++, three legged cheetah, etc..). Slowly ITvity improved, and salaries increased.

Sub system based approach brightened up, and MKI was successful. BTW, largely due to LCA projects and bi products in the MKI. It is a stage separation time or paradigm shift time, after the new DPP policy, the setup must gear up towards enhanced investments in local participation and development. It is a struggle covering decades of fight against corruption, continued capitalistic invasions, and subduing traitor media.

The revolution is slow, that it would be slow enough even for organic natural tendencies to overcome ill effects of the larger setup India is in, not just by its wishes and charter, but aided by many a low tendencies towards patriotism.

Singha
BRF Oldie
Posts: 66406
Joined: 13 Aug 2004 19:42
Location: the grasshopper lies heavy

Re: LCA News and Discussions

Postby Singha » 23 Jan 2011 08:52

if there is one failure on part of GOI, its the lack of appreciation that salaries in critical sectors have to match the growing salaries in Pvt sector for similar skills and the need to create org and legislative solns to delink these sectors from rest of the vast GOI salaried system.

if these critical facilities can match the salary of pvt sector (or come near) the attrition problem and recruitment problem would be mostly resolved.

shiv
BRF Oldie
Posts: 35017
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: Pindliyon ka Gooda

Re: LCA News and Discussions

Postby shiv » 23 Jan 2011 08:56

Singha wrote:
india general population has been insulated from the ravages of enemy occupation and total war. the sneering people who post comments in media outlets about "why cannot india do what boeing does" and "what is use of tejas , its 30 years behind the curve" are a product of that environment.

Also the colonized mind that agrees to the characterization that India has more cellphones than toilets but fails to point out that even the UK has more cellphones than toilets and India has more cellphones than all of western Europe combined.

A cellphone, like a hat is a personal item. A toilet is used by many and you do not need a 1:1 ratio of toilets. How many people pass through Heathrow in a day? 50,000? Heathrow does not have 50,000 toilets. There are more aircraft than toilets in Heathrow. Talk about poor bad prioritization and not thinking of human needs. :P


Return to “Trash Can Archive”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 23 guests