LCA News and Discussions

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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Postby chackojoseph » 02 Sep 2010 16:44

naird wrote:Question to folks out here ---

Will IOC comprise of AtoG testing also ? Or the first target will be only AtoA (Like Typhoon) ?


AFIK IOC is for getting the planes to Sulur for IAF to familiarize.

AtoG has already been demonstrated

So, LCA has demonstrated both A2A (Tejas fires its first missile) and A2G LCA Tejas can now move more mud.

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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Postby Singha » 02 Sep 2010 16:55

r73 has been fired yes. but the weapons trials of the radar & bvr missile do not seem to have commenced because the radar itself is a bit unclear - atleast to me...the mounted radar and its details and future plans have not been released so far. ofcourse we are told its a derivative of EL2032 - the israelis considered it good enough to ask permission to replace the APG68v9 in Sufa with it, but sher khan declined...so it should be a good set on par with RDY2...but problem is Derby is thorougly outmatched by even a older amraam....so either r77 or mica has to be integrated....some mooli and gajaar will need to be thrown to obtain co-op.

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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Postby chackojoseph » 02 Sep 2010 17:18

IMO, they have shown the "proof of concept" for a2a and a2g. Now we need to give time for munna to walk. IMO weapons have been decided.

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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Postby Gaur » 02 Sep 2010 20:07

Dmurphy wrote:What in the name of....? http://livefist.blogspot.com/2010/09/ia ... tejas.html

What is this supposed to mean. :shock: Is IAF site some cheap gimmicky blog which has to conduct such polls? Is the IAF not confident enough regarding LCA? Even if for some reason it is not, does it need a poll to make up its mind?
On top of that, what is the meaning of such cheap theatrics when Tejas is about to get IOC? I am not able to make any sense of this.

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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Postby Rahul M » 02 Sep 2010 20:21

Dmurphy wrote:What in the name of....? http://livefist.blogspot.com/2010/09/ia ... tejas.html

I memory serves right this poll is actually from 2005 or 2006 and a lot of us voted on it back then. I guess some genius discovered its existence only now.

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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Postby Gaur » 02 Sep 2010 20:27

^^
I see. Then it is my mistake that I took Aroor's word for granted. Nevertheless, I am highly surprised that such a poll was ever conducted by IAF. IMHO, IAF should have restrained itself from conducting this poll.

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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Postby Dmurphy » 02 Sep 2010 20:58

Yeah, IAF website is no news portal and its ridiculous. How come they didn't come out for a poll on the probable MMRCA winner?

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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Postby shiv » 02 Sep 2010 21:11

Just to put a contrarian view - what is wrong if the maintainers of the IAF website - who are probably young people such as many on this forum decided to get a little feedback from those who visit the site? Why does Shiv Aroor have to make it sound like such a crime? His stuffy "old codger" behavior would be more appropriate for some old grouch like me rather than a group of young and interesting people who think differently and do not have to say "Don't do this. Don't do that" Someone does a fun thing and Aroor gets his langoti in a huge twist. Pah!

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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Postby Gaur » 02 Sep 2010 21:22

^^
Shiv,
No one would have minded if it the "young people who maintain IAF site" would have held a poll in their blog. However, this is the official IAF site and not their private blog. Also, I seriously doubt that any poll can be conducted in IAF site without the prior authorization from higher ups (relatively speaking).
So, for once, I find myself in agreement with Aroor.
But then again, RahulM mentioned that the poll is very old. So, maybe I am wrong for flogging a dead horse.

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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Postby Rahul M » 02 Sep 2010 21:28

I see no problem with this poll and it was more or less relevant at that time.

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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Postby Dmurphy » 02 Sep 2010 21:36

Shivji, we need to differentiate between a harmless little experimentation and a needless poll which could reflect badly on our indigenous efforts. How is it encouraging to the ADA/HAL team and everybody who's associated with the LCA development - perhaps the most prestigious effort we've taken so far being judged by lowlifes and n00bs alike, that too on an official military website? And whats more, everybody gets to see it.

And I don't care two hoots about what Shiv Aroor has to say about it. I myself found it way too disgusting for a professional air force that IAF is. Its the same kind of juvenile behaviour which showed an Abram on the DRDO website.

JMT


Added later:

*PJ alert*

Mods, lets have an opinion poll here on BRF to see how many us BRFites think that poll was a good/harmless thing. :mrgreen:

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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Postby shiv » 02 Sep 2010 21:43

Dmurphy wrote:a needless poll which could reflect badly on our indigenous efforts. How is it encouraging to the ADA/HAL team and everffyybody who's associated with the LCA development



The LCA has been condemned and cursed by so many over so many years including by members of the IAF - so I don't believe a public poll of internet mouse clickers would make a whit of a difference.

LCA: Latest Confusion in Aeronautics, Last Chance Aircraft
"Khadi gramodyog" technology. 20 years late

Look at the poll results. Assuming it was not rigged (which is unlikely) it gives a real thumbs up to the LCA doesn't it.

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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Postby Jagan » 02 Sep 2010 21:46

shiv wrote:[

Look at the poll results. Assuming it was not rigged (which is unlikely) it gives a real thumbs up to the LCA doesn't it.



Sorry, but the results were rigged. I remember the poll from the thread.. one night it was 3000 votes. next day morning it was 90,000. by two days it was 200,000 You gotta be friggin kidding me. Someone said there was some kind of script battle going on BRF :mrgreen:

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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Postby Surya » 02 Sep 2010 21:51

This is a stupid slippery slope to walk down considering the quality of defence knowledge out there.

Does the IAF next want to ask if the Mig 21 is considered a "flying coffin"??

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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Postby Rahul M » 02 Sep 2010 21:54

oh it was rigged alright ! more than one culprit IIRC. :mrgreen:

p.s. who knows, may be this poll finally convinced IAF to support the LCA project ! :lol:

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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Postby shiv » 02 Sep 2010 22:05

Surya wrote:This is a stupid slippery slope to walk down considering the quality of defence knowledge out there.

Does the IAF next want to ask if the Mig 21 is considered a "flying coffin"??


Well it's their site. They decide what they want to ask.

Having said that - one hears, from time to time about traditionally serious media (western) in which something funny is done on April 1st or some appropriate time. The anglophone world prides itself on its sense of humor - check the humor that McChrystal's speech was peppered with. I doubt if Indians are allowed to do something for fun - we are such a dour bunch aren't we? Aren't we expecting that official site to be serious and non fun - or at least we don't like their idea of a fun thing? We are a pretty serious bunch. Where's the sense of humor?

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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Postby Dmurphy » 02 Sep 2010 22:09

Surya wrote:Does the IAF next want to ask if the Mig 21 is considered a "flying coffin"??
:rotfl:
But, IAF, if you're watching, I called first:
Dmurphy wrote:How come they didn't come out for a poll on the probable MMRCA winner?

Sorry for the OT, couldn't resist. :mrgreen:
shiv wrote:Well it's their site. They decide what they want to ask.
Naa, Shivji, naa. Its not a private website. Its an official website of the air force of the republic of india and the president is the commander in chief onlee. :evil:

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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Postby chackojoseph » 03 Sep 2010 06:06

Rahul M wrote:oh it was rigged alright ! more than one culprit IIRC. :mrgreen:

p.s. who knows, may be this poll finally convinced IAF to support the LCA project ! :lol:


I was talking to IAF wallah other day. (some 3 months back).

He was saying the No's must be from IAF personnel :rotfl:

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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Postby Surya » 03 Sep 2010 06:38

shiv

as you mention if it is intended to be humorous then its normally put on april 1st. unless its one of those Onion type sites.

But that is not the realm of official websites to the best of my knowledge (other than NORAD tracking Santa :) )


I have a great sense of humour and here is my next suggestion for a poll

Do you think that we are painting all our aircraft grey because the paint supplier is related to one of our chiefs?

Let them put that and I accept that the LCA was just a humorous poll

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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Postby shiv » 03 Sep 2010 07:44

Surya wrote:shiv

as you mention if it is intended to be humorous then its normally put on april 1st. unless its one of those Onion type sites.


Correct and this only reinforces my impression of the dour humorless Indian. A day is set aside every year for pranks in western culture and humor is part of the background scene. Indians take things very very seriously. My personal view is that we need to lighten up. This is OT - but it is deeply related to reactions about what "An official (officious? "harrumph harrumph") website should or should not do and what is not proper". Surely the President of India is not consulted for everything done by the IAF provided it is legal and within the bounds of propriety. It is OK to say "I don't want the IAF website to have any humor". But there are people, with myself among them who believe that it is OK. And yes - if the IAF website maintainers wanted to set a trend and be really sporting they should have polls about MiG 21 and MRCA as well.

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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Postby Dmurphy » 03 Sep 2010 07:46

chackojoseph wrote:He was saying the No's must be from IAF personnel
See thats what i was afraid of :x :(

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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Postby negi » 03 Sep 2010 07:50

^Most of the service personnel do not get enough time to sit in front of the kampyooter.

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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Postby shiv » 03 Sep 2010 08:03

msg deleted to move to more appropriate thread

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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Postby chackojoseph » 03 Sep 2010 08:45

Dmurphy wrote:
chackojoseph wrote:He was saying the No's must be from IAF personnel
See thats what i was afraid of :x :(


Oh! he was only kidding. And I added Pakis and Chinis to it. :D

Added Later......

There is no way he or even webby can know who voted what.

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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Postby Philip » 06 Sep 2010 18:46

Some good news.The MOD/IAF is taking its cue from years of BR's advice it appears! AWST (Aug 23rd.) reports that a second batch of MK-1 LCAs wil be ordered,making 48 in all,as the delay in selecting the engine for MK-2 is delaying the induction.The first sqd. is to be based at Sulur,as well known,second also at Sulur or perhaps at Kayathur,old WW2 airstrip,both locations being upgraded with new ATCs longer runways,etc.The two sqds. will have a limited operational capability though and be used for facilitating "doctrine and operational envelope activity" until Mk-2 arrives.As for the MK-2 engine selection,some changes in fuselage/intakes will be required though EJ say that their engine would require least modifications.These two sqds. will then slowly replace older MIG-21s in srvice.

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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Postby manum » 06 Sep 2010 19:33

The MOD/IAF is taking its cue from years of BR's advice it appears! AWST (Aug 23rd.) reports that a second batch of MK-1 LCAs wil be ordered,making 48 in all,as the delay in selecting the engine for MK-2 is delaying the induction.


Good news...and more sure this MK-2 delay is caused due to delay in MRCA results (may be its a hint)...or they will saperate MRCA too from MK-2 and order separate engines...after a long realized delay...

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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Postby Kartik » 07 Sep 2010 01:11

Philip wrote:Some good news.The MOD/IAF is taking its cue from years of BR's advice it appears! AWST (Aug 23rd.) reports that a second batch of MK-1 LCAs wil be ordered,making 48 in all,as the delay in selecting the engine for MK-2 is delaying the induction.The first sqd. is to be based at Sulur,as well known,second also at Sulur or perhaps at Kayathur,old WW2 airstrip,both locations being upgraded with new ATCs longer runways,etc.The two sqds. will have a limited operational capability though and be used for facilitating "doctrine and operational envelope activity" until Mk-2 arrives.As for the MK-2 engine selection,some changes in fuselage/intakes will be required though EJ say that their engine would require least modifications.These two sqds. will then slowly replace older MIG-21s in srvice.


this is good news and the limited operational capability for a fighter that has just been inducted is nothing new anywhere in the world. The Rafale, Typhoon are just 2 cases for example where the first few variants were operationally limited (not necessarily aerodynamically, but avionics and capabilities wise) and took several years to actually become multi-role fighters.

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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Postby vipins » 07 Sep 2010 02:51

Philip wrote:Some good news.The MOD/IAF is taking its cue from years of BR's advice it appears! AWST (Aug 23rd.) reports that a second batch of MK-1 LCAs wil be ordered,making 48 in all,as the delay in selecting the engine for MK-2 is delaying the induction.The first sqd. is to be based at Sulur,as well known,second also at Sulur or perhaps at Kayathur,old WW2 airstrip,both locations being upgraded with new ATCs longer runways,etc.The two sqds. will have a limited operational capability though and be used for facilitating "doctrine and operational envelope activity" until Mk-2 arrives.As for the MK-2 engine selection,some changes in fuselage/intakes will be required though EJ say that their engine would require least modifications.These two sqds. will then slowly replace older MIG-21s in srvice.


But proposal for additional 20 MK-1s was already cleared by MOD as per some old articles(june 2010).
” The Tejas aircraft ,with its current engine and configuration, is expected to be inducted into the Indian Air Force (IAF) from March next year with state-run military plane maker Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd supplying 20 planes initially. The proposal for a second batch of 20 planes has been cleared by the defence ministry and negotiations are on, Subramanyam said.

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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Postby Arya Sumantra » 07 Sep 2010 11:59

Philip wrote:Some good news.The MOD/IAF is taking its cue from years of BR's advice it appears! AWST (Aug 23rd.) reports that a second batch of MK-1 LCAs wil be ordered,making 48 in all


Old news about 20 more planes raising the number from 28 to 48 is repeated time and again as good news. and jingoes get confused whether it had become 68 or 88 now with all those repeated "20 more" periodic shouts. There is no good news for Tejas other than a high production rate facility but it has been shot been down by folks who want to pass off a lab for making Tech Demonstrator(TDs) as a production facility.

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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Postby P Chitkara » 07 Sep 2010 13:21

Rafale and Typhoon took their own time to mature and till then only a limited number were inducted. What is the rational for greater numbers in MK1?

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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Postby Philip » 07 Sep 2010 13:45

True,the LCA may not perform to parameters as designed and planned,but it is a first step forward.48+ MK-1s will enable us to evaluate the aircraft and make whatever changes are required to get MK-2 upto std.In addition,it will enable us to perfect the naval version.As many experts have pointed out,most close-quarter combat takes place at transonic speeds and equipped with both BVR and dogfighting missiles.At the very least the LCA will be more potent than our old MIG-21s which they were meant to replace.I've been a bitter critic of the management of the LCA programme,but it is essential for it to succeed as so much money has been poured into it and it has given us huge learning experience which we can put to good use in the 5th-gen fighter JV with Russia and a future MCA/UCAV.The key decision that we have to take immediately is that of the engine for MK-2.I cannot understand the inordinate delay in doing so.Are vested interests at work here waiting for the Messiah's visit to announce the choice?

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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Postby Pratyush » 07 Sep 2010 14:12

Philip,

What you suggest about the eengine for the Mk2 could well be correct. My reading of the situation is that they are confident of the sucess of Kaveri and are hopeful of ceritifying the engine quite quickly. So they will go for Kaveri engine itself. (I know that I am being optimistice in this regard.)

JMT.

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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Postby Philip » 07 Sep 2010 14:28

Good luck to you! I'm sceptical though and think that the MMRCA contest has a bearing on the MK-2 engine,especially as the IAF appears to be in no indecent haste to induct the LCA,preferring to add more SU-30MKIs to keep capability high.Given the low production rates too,not more than 8-12 a year officially stated,we might not see more than 120+ LCAs built,about the same number as the HF-24.The LCA would've fulfilled its destiny if it can whip the pyjamas off the JF-17!

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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Postby P Chitkara » 07 Sep 2010 14:46

I agree with Phillip on the engine part. We cannot yet speculate on the eventual numbers though. For all we know, the numbers may eventually cross 200 as we have been seeing with MKI, MMRCA (speculation onlee at this point in time). After all, the numbers for jags, m2ks and mig27s as they retire will have to be fulfilled. My best guess is LCA will be the one for that job and form the lo part of hi-lo mix. hi >> MKI, MMRCA, FGFA/AMCA lo >> LCA

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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Postby Willy » 07 Sep 2010 15:05

Philip wrote:True,the LCA may not perform to parameters as designed and planned,but it is a first step forward.48+ MK-1s will enable us to evaluate the aircraft and make whatever changes are required to get MK-2 upto std.In addition,it will enable us to perfect the naval version.As many experts have pointed out,most close-quarter combat takes place at transonic speeds and equipped with both BVR and dogfighting missiles.At the very least the LCA will be more potent than our old MIG-21s which they were meant to replace.I've been a bitter critic of the management of the LCA programme,but it is essential for it to succeed as so much money has been poured into it and it has given us huge learning experience which we can put to good use in the 5th-gen fighter JV with Russia and a future MCA/UCAV.The key decision that we have to take immediately is that of the engine for MK-2.I cannot understand the inordinate delay in doing so.Are vested interests at work here waiting for the Messiah's visit to announce the choice?


Philip has made a very important point here. It's one thing that we want this and that like AESA and more powerful engines in MKII. But its only when an aircraft enters sqn service and starts being used in the environment its supposed to operate in, that the enduser can really specify what little improvements and tweaks need to be made.

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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Postby Arya Sumantra » 07 Sep 2010 15:54

P Chitkara wrote:Rafale and Typhoon took their own time to mature and till then only a limited number were inducted. What is the rational for greater numbers in MK1?


Who said the greater numbers are for mk1 only. The russkie facility for pakfa is for making BOTH pakfa and Su37. So it is possible with careful planning to create a production facility to make BOTH 4th gen and 5th gen planes with a high degree of commonality and shared infrastructure/equipment. If such planning is followed a facility that makes both Tejas and AMCA with provision of space for different equipments for sub-processes that are different between 4th gen and 5th, is possible.

It takes time to iron out initial wrinkles standardize and ramp up the numbers but ramp up to what final number? mere 12 from 8? or some 25, 30 or 40 planes/ yr type numbers for max output. The greater installed capacity does not mean that MK1s will be produced in big numbers from day1 but by the time we reach MK2 and later AMCA, the capacity will exist with almost everything sorted out except for differences between mk1 and mk2. But surely no one will be able to cry that we can't get them soon enough.

UCAVs are already on the scene and we are fortunate to have a small plane already in our hand. Once the MK2 comes, some of the MK1s could be converted to UCAV variants. That way the risk of older tech and lesser self-protection is shifted to unmanned corps based on ground while manned corps fly the uber planes. Bredator type planes with mere a2g capabilities are only for fighting insurgents. But to take on enemy forces in full fledged war with both a2a and a2g needs ucav'ed variants of an actual fighter.

P Chitkara wrote:the numbers may eventually cross 200 as we have been seeing with MKI, MMRCA (speculation onlee at this point in time). After all, the numbers for jags, m2ks and mig27s as they retire will have to be fulfilled.


Fulfil the gap left by retiring planes, with a 12 planes/ yr stretched out of a prototype making facility? In how many years?

First a bottleneck is forced upon the nation and then everyone cries "look we can't get enough mk2 sooner so let's import or get more of mrca". Who are they fooling?

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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Postby P Chitkara » 07 Sep 2010 17:12

Arya Sumantra wrote:
P Chitkara wrote:the numbers may eventually cross 200 as we have been seeing with MKI, MMRCA (speculation onlee at this point in time). After all, the numbers for jags, m2ks and mig27s as they retire will have to be fulfilled.


Fulfil the gap left by retiring planes, with a 12 planes/ yr stretched out of a prototype making facility? In how many years?

First a bottleneck is forced upon the nation and then everyone cries "look we can't get enough mk2 sooner so let's import or get more of mrca". Who are they fooling?


Did I anywhere in my post say the numbers cannot be ramped up by expanding the facilities later?

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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Postby Arya Sumantra » 07 Sep 2010 18:08

One cannot expand facilities just like that. Every equipment and a line is designed for a max throughput. Every major aerospace manufacturer seeks prior commitment for numbers and sets up facility in accordance. Surely we did not stumble upon something they do not know In a well-coordinated plan the end-user as a stakeholders does not have unlimited flexibility to be unpredictable. Also there are cost advantages derived from economies of scale which cannot be realized from a token order size.

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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Postby P Chitkara » 07 Sep 2010 18:50

My point exactly. When they get the commitment in numbers (for MKII), they will plan and expand accordingly. Till then there is little point in having facilities that are underutilized.

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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Postby SanjibGhosh » 08 Sep 2010 22:18

Flash* : Antony To Declare Initial Operational Clearance For LCA-Tejas On December 27, 2010, In Bangalore !!!

http://chhindits.blogspot.com/2010/09/f ... itial.html

finally ....


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