LCA News and Discussions

Arya Sumantra · Post by **Arya Sumantra** » 30 Sep 2010 17:02

All price and no ToT makes deal a dull buy.

Shame really. What wrong did my country do to deserve MMS and AKA?

And do force projection on their own cousins in oz with their own remote controlled F18 ? The WASPs must be laughing their butts off behind our backs.

When the deal with EJ200 is close to finalizing then the news is prematurely leaked out, but when unkil is about to get it, it is finalized and date of commencement of production is announced. Tells you something about unkil's men in MoD and media. God save this country now.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 30 Sep 2010 17:13

I think the EJ200 being lowest bidder etc etc was a paid news by vested interest , now formal statement from DRDO clears the doubt.

So 414 being the lowest bidder doesnt come as a surprise and consequently the winner by L1

Considering the long standing relation that GE shared with ADA , ADA would have a long working relationship with GE and this would be helpful for Mk2 development.

shukla · Post by **shukla** » 30 Sep 2010 17:15

GE offer also included redesigning the LCA Tejas to accommodate the GE- F 414.

However it was felt that this offer defies the very Air Staff requirement (ASR) for the light weight, small aircraft. GE- F 414 is heavier engine, LCA dimensions will drastically change and it will push back LCA development for at least 3-5 years. Also the past experience dealing with US on LCA weighed heavy on the Indian minds.

This time US decides not to cooperate midway, the Tejas project will be non recoverable.

http://frontierindia.net/ge-with-ge-f41 ... ate-engine

Jamie Boscardin · Post by **Jamie Boscardin** » 30 Sep 2010 17:55

What this selection tells you is that the government is serious about the "Lowest bidder wins the day". This also goes to say that the Gripen stands a definite chance in the MMRCA race and no way is a dark horse anymore, specially when now its known that they

To all folks who have a unkil-untouchable syndrome, kindly analyze how India is shaping up and how USA needs India, the same way we need USA. Look at the future and work in present, leave the past baggage's behind. Been apprehensive means you work your way through those sore points and find a solution, not lie down in a corner and cry all life.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 30 Sep 2010 18:04

livefist update:-

Eurojet Gmbh has accepted defeat in the Tejas Mk-II engine competition. Just received this statement from the company:

"We respect the decision taken by the Price Negotiating Committee. However, we regret that the Committee has decided against the most capable & latest generation engine on offer for the LCA-Tejas. Together with our consortium partner companies and their respective governments we will carefully study the decision and its implications. We expect further details from Indian authorities and more information about the process leading to the announced selection. This decision does not affect our strong commitment to India. We will continue to explore true and trusted partnerships here which will support the development of a strong Indian aerospace and defence industry."

JimmyJ · Post by **JimmyJ** » 30 Sep 2010 18:06

Jamie Boscardin wrote:What this selection tells you is that the government is serious about the "Lowest bidder wins the day". This also goes to say that the Gripen stands a definite chance in the MMRCA race and no way is a dark horse anymore, specially when now its known that they

To all folks who have a unkil-untouchable syndrome, kindly analyze how India is shaping up and how USA needs India, the same way we need USA. Look at the future and work in present, leave the past baggage's behind. Been apprehensive means you work your way through those sore points and find a solution, not lie down in a corner and cry all life.

There is no untouchable syndrome, it is the bitter experience in the not that distant past that makes many a people bit more cautious while dealing with USA.

Gaur · Post by **Gaur** » 30 Sep 2010 18:18

Jamie Boscardin wrote:What this selection tells you is that the government is serious about the "Lowest bidder wins the day". This also goes to say that the Gripen stands a definite chance in the MMRCA race and no way is a dark horse anymore, specially when now its known that they

To all folks who have a unkil-untouchable syndrome, kindly analyze how India is shaping up and how USA needs India, the same way we need USA. Look at the future and work in present, leave the past baggage's behind. Been apprehensive means you work your way through those sore points and find a solution, not lie down in a corner and cry all life.

You sound like someone who is hardly aware of the situation but nevertheless likes to talk about it with authority. How much did US need India when it denied the consultancy for Naval Tejas? Or how reliable is US "now" when many of DRDO and ISRO labs are still under sanctions even as you read this post?

And even if we forget the politics, how can one explain the decision to buy an engine for hundreds of fighters with unlikelihood for either TOT or future scope for improvement?

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 30 Sep 2010 18:21

Talk about a political decision. India has proven its procurement managers learn nothing and are liable to repeat the same mistakes all over again. They were given a choice of a decade in their hands, they let it go, and ended up holding their nations most critical aerospace project hostage once again. Stupidity to the nth+ degree.

Clearly also shows that the MMRCA will now go either the GripenNG or F/A-18 EF way. Both prone to sanctions, and one even a paper plane with far less combat capability than several of its peers.

Really shameful.

shukla · Post by **shukla** » 30 Sep 2010 18:25

Gaur wrote:And even if we forget the politics, how can one explain the decision to buy an engine for hundreds of fighters with unlikelihood for either TOT or future scope for improvement?

DRDO chiefs words.. http://www.india-defence.com/reports-4581

REST WILL BE MANUFACTURED IN INDIA UNDER TRANSFER OF TECHNOLOGY TO OUR DEFENCE ESTABLISHMENTS...THE GE-414 ENGINES WILL BE DEVELOPED BY THE GAS TURBINE RESEARCH ESTABLISHMENT (GTRE) IN BANGALORE IN COLLABORATION WITH OTHER DRDO AGENCIES SUCH AS AERONAUTICAL DEVELOPMENT AGENCY AND HAL

Isn't it possible that they could have got assurance of TOT??

Suresh S · Post by **Suresh S** » 30 Sep 2010 18:31

Too many Jaichands paid for by unkil sam in India,s govt and MoD.
We deserve what we get. While India,s real friends the Russians would be real happy .

Yagnasri · Post by **Yagnasri** » 30 Sep 2010 18:35

It is quite problematic go with US just because it is offered cheap. Europian option is more advanced and just because it cost some more bucks we are making a serious mistake

dinesha · Post by **dinesha** » 30 Sep 2010 18:46

Though the order could be for 99 engines initially, India will have the option of order for another 100 engines in the future. GE had offered its GE F-414 engine as an alternative to its GE F-404 engines that are fitted in the first batch of LCAs that IAF would receive in a couple of years from now. Eurojet had offered its EJ-200 engines for the LCA Mk II aircraft that is under development now. The DRDO announcement comes a day after Defence Minister A K Antony returned here after a two-day visit to the US and met American Secretary of State Hillary Clinton and Defence Secretary Robert Gates among others.

http://ibnlive.in.com/generalnewsfeed/n ... 65787.html

Jamie Boscardin · Post by **Jamie Boscardin** » 30 Sep 2010 18:51

JimmyJ wrote:
There is no untouchable syndrome, it is the bitter experience in the not that distant past that makes many a people bit more cautious while dealing with USA.

Question is, are you comparing what US did to a terrorist state in pakistan using its weapons and that's makes you apprehensive?
Or there is something which they have done to us, post 2000 era?

Gaur,
Its all about perceptions, trust me.
1. Our eternal enemy Pakistan's current/future set of fighter jets (Jf17, J10) are powered by Russian engine's.
2. China's entire defense industrial complex is full of Russian inputs (direct/indirect). Russian PM said recently in China that, "Russian's and Chinese friendship is inked in blood".
3. The amount of money we are putting in front of Russians in form of JV's etc are one way of telling Russians that pls some technologies do not transfer to the Chinese. Let some remain in our domain.

So, in your analogy, Russia is a back-stabber to India..????

Gaur · Post by **Gaur** » 30 Sep 2010 18:55

shukla wrote:
Gaur wrote:And even if we forget the politics, how can one explain the decision to buy an engine for hundreds of fighters with unlikelihood for either TOT or future scope for improvement?
DRDO chiefs words.. http://www.india-defence.com/reports-4581
REST WILL BE MANUFACTURED IN INDIA UNDER TRANSFER OF TECHNOLOGY TO OUR DEFENCE ESTABLISHMENTS...THE GE-414 ENGINES WILL BE DEVELOPED BY THE GAS TURBINE RESEARCH ESTABLISHMENT (GTRE) IN BANGALORE IN COLLABORATION WITH OTHER DRDO AGENCIES SUCH AS AERONAUTICAL DEVELOPMENT AGENCY AND HAL
Isn't it possible that they could have got assurance of TOT??

I would like to hope so. But considering that US has "never" provided significant TOT even to its closest allies, it seems highly unlikely to me. However, let us hope against all hope that the unprecedented has happened (nothing that we can do other than that). Will be awaiting details regarding the nature of the TOT.

Also, how credible is india-defence? Isn't it one of the haram sites on BR or am I wrong there? I ask this because Dr. Prahlada's statement or the delivery schedule is not mentioned by any other article. So, if the delivery is to start from 2014 onwards, it would be optimistic to expect that mk2 would be inducted even by 2017-2018.

SriSri · Post by **SriSri** » 30 Sep 2010 19:04

Gaur wrote:Also, how credible is india-defence? Isn't it one of the haram sites on BR or am I wrong there? I ask this because Dr. Prahlada's statement or the delivery schedule is not mentioned by any other article. So, if the delivery is to start from 2014 onwards, it would be optimistic to expect that mk2 would be inducted even by 2017-2018.

Fairly credible I hope.

Those Dr. Prahlada quotes came from the wires (IANS to be specific).

P Chitkara · Post by **P Chitkara** » 30 Sep 2010 19:04

It is not a matter of untouchable etc etc etc. It is a question of reliability and the amount of tech which we may get.

1. Eurojet is more advanced with greater growth potential - the possibility of us getting actually tangible tech was also a real possibility
2. Remember the sea king episode? They were denied to us when we needed them most.
3. LCA itself is an example of delays due to uncle.

The Russians may be providing tech to chinese but they are helping us too - in critical areas (Arihant being a prime example). Isn’t uncle doling out high quality freebies to pukes? Who will the pukes fight with that bakhsheesh - taliban AF, taliban navy?

Overcoming past strains requires some serious commitment to be exhibited by the party that induced those strains.

JimmyJ · Post by **JimmyJ** » 30 Sep 2010 19:05

Jamie Boscardin wrote:
JimmyJ wrote:
There is no untouchable syndrome, it is the bitter experience in the not that distant past that makes many a people bit more cautious while dealing with USA.
Question is, are you comparing what US did to a terrorist state in pakistan using its weapons and that's makes you apprehensive?
Or there is something which they have done to us, post 2000 era?

I look at it policies from 1960s on till day and I don't and won't trust them blindly even if they promise paradise.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 30 Sep 2010 19:06

^^ TOT was never a requirement for new engine , else it would cost a bounty if ever there was an honest TOT attempt by any of the winners.

What they would do is Lic Manuf the selected engine in India in this case the winner GE 414.

Gaur · Post by **Gaur** » 30 Sep 2010 19:09

Jamie Boscardin,
Yes, Russia certainly did back stab India when it sold RD-93 for JF-17s. However, b/n Russia and US, Russia is lesser of two evils. This is because you can at least expect Russia to provide you with the goods till you have $$$ to spare. On the contrary, no amount of $$$ will work with the US.

So, you will always get screwed till you are not independent. But until then, it best to buy with someone over who poses least risk.

BTW, how does this get into Tejas engine selection discussion? The other option was European and not Russian.

PS: The politics of Russians (or any other politics which has no bearing on the discussion) is OT. So, if you feel the need to continue this line of discussion, I would request you to do so in the appropriate thread.
As for me, this will be my last reply on this topic here.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 30 Sep 2010 19:21

OT but there is no question of backstabbing by US , Russia Europe or anybody.

India does not give any guarantees that it would only buy products from US or Russia or Europe for the other party to reciprocate the same to India , India is free to buy defence product that suits her needs and from any country it wants to , much in the same way these countries are free to sell as per its financial/strategic interest.

Bihanga · Post by **Bihanga** » 30 Sep 2010 19:29

I think, it was somehow a very wise decision to select GE-F-414 in place of more advanced EJ-200 as far as development time and cost is concerned. Designers will certainly have a very hard time in coping with further challanges that will be posed by new engine integration as it will necessary further test flight. Our primary aim should be to get Tejas in big numbers at a lowest possible cost and GE-414 is by noway any less advanced then EJ-200. More so, selection of EJ-200 would have certainly put in more delays to our Kaveri Programme.

vic · Post by **vic** » 30 Sep 2010 19:37

EJ future variants could have gone into AMCA also. With first deliveries of F414 in 2014, we can expect the LCA mark-2 to fly only around 2016, that practically means that LCA is half way to funeral pyre. This smacks of typical babudunm decision where L1 is more important rather than future of the nation

Jamie Boscardin · Post by **Jamie Boscardin** » 30 Sep 2010 19:50

pulling out my post, as what I wanted to say was well captured by Austin in short.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 30 Sep 2010 20:12

the EJ200 of today would not meet the Mk2 thrust demand (around 23,000lb in reheat). Eurojet would have to build the growth version of EJ200 and qualify it which surely would take 3-4 yrs. I have not see a report that they have already prototyped or started testing it - the EF user nations do not yet need such a big motor.

the F414 "EDE" (enhanced durability, less fuel consumption and 15% more thrust) version is probably what mk2 will get. it was funded by GOTUS and work
underway in 2009 ... so likely peak thrust will be 24,000lb hopefully to justify the wait till 2014.

the F414G is ready for Gripen-NG and would be available quicker if we wanted it...but surely we want the more powerful EDE model.
http://www.geae.com/aboutgeae/presscent ... 70619.html

June 19, 2007
GE Launches F414G Engine for Saab's Gripen Demonstrator Program
--LeBOURGET -- Saab has selected GE Aviation's new F414G fighter engine to power its Gripen Aircraft Demonstrator Program. Two F414 Engines are currently being delivered for flight-test and customer demonstration evaluations planned for 2008-2010.

The F414G uses a similar architecture to the popular F414-GE-400 engine powering the F/A-18 Super Hornet, with minor changes to the alternator for added aircraft power, and modified Full Authority Digital Electronic Control (FADEC) software for enhanced single-engine operation. The F414 engine is capable of producing more than 22,000 pounds (96 kN) of thrust.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 30 Sep 2010 20:16

the M2k with the 17,000lb P53 engine and well designed shape and air intakes achieves Mach2.2

the Tejas Mk1 with its fatter body and smaller intake is limited to Mach1.8 even though it has a more powerful IN20 engine.

hopefully the Tejas mk2 will look at airframe changes to increase both the acceleration and peak speed now that a big motor will be fitted.

could permit matching the strong T:W performance of the F16s with its 29,000-32,000lb engine albeit it has greater airframe weight.

Gaur · Post by **Gaur** » 30 Sep 2010 20:23

^^
LCA's limitation of top speed to MACH 1.8 has nothing to do with thrust. Nor is the "fatter" body and "smaller" intakes the cause for the mach 1.8 limit. To go to MACH 2 and beyond, the aircraft needs variable geometry inlet. This 'greatly' increases complexity. So, it would be more complex to manufacture and maintain. Also, the cost would go up.
As the era of high speed interceptors is long gone, mach 1.8 is deemed sufficient for modern fighters when considering the complexity to benefit ratio.
So, IMO, there is little chance that the top speed will go higher for mk2. It is not a big enough issue.

sivab · Post by **sivab** » 30 Sep 2010 20:31

Singha wrote:the M2k with the 17,000lb P53 engine and well designed shape and air intakes achieves Mach2.2

the Tejas Mk1 with its fatter body and smaller intake is limited to Mach1.8 even though it has a more powerful IN20 engine.

Wrong conclusion. M53-P2 which powers all M2ks has 21,400lb of AB thrust. See this

http://www.snecma.com/IMG/pdf/M53-P2_ang-2.pdf

chackojoseph · Post by **chackojoseph** » 30 Sep 2010 20:36

We use GE-LM engines on Indian Aircraft Carrier. Why not LCA?

Vikram W · Post by **Vikram W** » 30 Sep 2010 20:41

Lowest bidder wins LCA engine deal :

Alas, Eurojet doesnt know how business is done in India.

You have to liason, pay off babus , and then bids are opened for a pre-view and you can put in a lower bid

so who cares if EJ was a better engine. ( and how do we know certain scribes who proclaimed EJ victory were not on EJs payrolls either)

chackojoseph · Post by **chackojoseph** » 30 Sep 2010 20:53

I don't want to look pro GR, but, since 2007 GE knew what LCA wanted even before IAF knew what it wanted. It prepared itself and was there educating IAF. Eurojet with all that Europen high noses was sleeping. Subsequently GE fought hard and won with the lowest price for the same requirement. What wrong with that?

At the same time, GE-404 and GE-404IN powered LCA when all other options were not available. Even ACM Philip Rajkumar writes about a Lebanese GE engineer who was very pro India.

It doesn't matter which is best engine, it matters which is good enough for us with a good price.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 30 Sep 2010 21:00

the europeans do not have a single engine fighter application for the EJ200. the 414 is already into gripenNG and boeing just won another order for 120 F-18 which might have the EDE model same as Mk2 Tejas. overall GE's position on this looked superior even discounting they know the Tejas design via IN20 work.

suryag · Post by **suryag** » 30 Sep 2010 21:07

my stupid brain's chankian wave.

Buy engines from GE get TOT. Award MMRCA to euro guys get TOT for engines. Use these two TOTs and make super T in India.

Willy · Post by **Willy** » 30 Sep 2010 22:00

dinesha wrote:
Though the order could be for 99 engines initially, India will have the option of order for another 100 engines in the future. GE had offered its GE F-414 engine as an alternative to its GE F-404 engines that are fitted in the first batch of LCAs that IAF would receive in a couple of years from now. Eurojet had offered its EJ-200 engines for the LCA Mk II aircraft that is under development now. The DRDO announcement comes a day after Defence Minister A K Antony returned here after a two-day visit to the US and met American Secretary of State Hillary Clinton and Defence Secretary Robert Gates among others.
http://ibnlive.in.com/generalnewsfeed/n ... 65787.html

Maybe this is just to placate the Americians before Bama's visit. Myabe it has been decided that the teens are out of the MMRCA race so the new P8I order of 4 and the LCA engine deal to help Bama save face.

Is that just wishful thinking????? Maybe not!. With recent reports saying that the US will support India for a permanent seat on the UN security council only if they settle the Kashmir problem the talk of geostrategic policies may be loosing steam and the Teens maybe really out of the MMRCA competition.

But having said that the engine deal has not been finalised yet has it. First it was EJ that was the lowest now the 414. Maybe both will be ditched and a Chinese engine will be choosen for the LCA

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 30 Sep 2010 22:07

the good thing is that we now know that the LCA will now have a secure future with the IAF.

suryag · Post by **suryag** » 30 Sep 2010 22:31

Maybe both will be ditched and a Chinese engine will be choosen for the LCA

Then the tejas will have an additional seat for a mechanic to repair the engine every 10 mins.

putnanja · Post by **putnanja** » 30 Sep 2010 22:34

Has the US DoS and DoD signed off on the GE offer? The last time Boeing won the tender to help with LCA-N testing, the US DoD sat on the application for months and denied it, forcing India to go to EU. Hope same isn't repeated this time around.

Before anyone talks about the current GE 404s, let me say that the current ones were direct buys, no ToT involved. The 414 explicitly has a ToT clause in the tender if I am not mistaken

Arya Sumantra · Post by **Arya Sumantra** » 30 Sep 2010 22:40

suryag wrote:my stupid brain's chankian wave.

Buy engines from GE get TOT. Award MMRCA to euro guys get TOT for engines. Use these two TOTs and make super T in India.

Don't get yours and others hopes high. Such things are possible when you are ruled by leaders for whom nation's interests are paramount above their own wallets. If honest they(leaders) do not have stupid notions like sleeping with enemy and strategic partnerships with a nation that is itself trying to shaft you pushing all putting obstacles for your R&D institutions, pushing anti-national NGOs, agro-imperialist foodgrain companies selling grains with terminator-gene, giving freebies to your enemy, controlling your systems through kill-switches, looking after rights of your terrorists through HR ngos and bribed mediahouses etc. Monetary blackmailing(russkies, french...) is far more tolerable than political blackmailing.

Austin wrote:I think the EJ200 being lowest bidder etc etc was a paid news by vested interest , now formal statement from DRDO clears the doubt.

Not possible. Oiropeans would be themselves concerned about unkil giving a phone call to delhi and changing their lead. They would themselves not put any statement about premature victory.

Will CAG be kind enough to publish the true quoted prices to the public atleast let's confirm whether MoD is really right on this.

Austin wrote:^^ TOT was never a requirement for new engine , else it would cost a bounty if ever there was an honest TOT attempt by any of the winners.

and

chackojoseph wrote:It doesn't matter which is best engine, it matters which is good enough for us with a good price.

Who says? Are we not struggling in our attempts to build our own jet engine. Like that we will never acquire any defence know-how because no ToT will always be cheaper than some ToT. And they will cite L1 and unkil wins everytime. Unkil has been aghast at the very idea of ToT and we give them a winning formula !!!

chackojoseph wrote:We use GE-LM engines on Indian Aircraft Carrier. Why not LCA?

We have some dependence, so we should become even more dependent ?

Singha wrote:the europeans do not have a single engine fighter application for the EJ200.

That is exactly the reason why Tejas MK2 should have been based on EJ200. The plane would get full support for export to 3rd countries and not fall into competition with their own planes. Now we have a plane that will be compared with Gripen everytime a customer shows interest. How intelligent of our planners? Yes, I know talking about Tejas exports is premature but even after we satisfy our internal demands there will be a huge number of countries who will not be able to afford 5th gen planes(at least not their entire fleets) and will continue to buy affordable 4th gen alternatives.

nrshah · Post by **nrshah** » 30 Sep 2010 23:11

Paging Chacko, Aroor, Ananth Krishnan...

Guys will you do us a favor of asking DRDO / DM and babus, what have they thought of regarding attempts to hold deliveries... just as consultancy was stopped?

rgsrini · Post by **rgsrini** » 30 Sep 2010 23:30

suryag wrote:Then the tejas will have an additional seat for a mechanic to repair the engine every 10 mins.

They will also come in handy at time of war, as they can throw noodle packets at the enemy through the window.

saurav.jha · Post by **saurav.jha** » 30 Sep 2010 23:44

Singha wrote:
the F414 "EDE" (enhanced durability, less fuel consumption and 15% more thrust) version is probably what mk2 will get. it was funded by GOTUS and work
underway in 2009 ... so likely peak thrust will be 24,000lb hopefully to justify the wait till 2014.

Sorry to interrupt but in place of Enhanced durability AND 15% more thrust,EDE gives the option of either enhanced durability and less fuel consumption OR, 15% more thrust.