LCA News and Discussions

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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Postby uddu » 25 Nov 2010 06:57

It's computational aerodynamics.
Link
See the aerodynamic section
In the LCA video it seems that the blue colour represents lower pressure over the upper part of the wings when it's pulling upward.

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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Postby shukla » 25 Nov 2010 09:18

LCA Tejas Falls Short of Earlier Expectations
Aviation Week

“We are still working to get the platform on track for initial operational clearance,” says an air force officer. “It appears the exercise of resolving certain performance parameters will spill over into the post-induction phase,” he notes. “There was a very committed effort toward envelope expansion, though we have fallen short in certain key specifications, which we will continue to work on.”

Former air force chief Srinivasapuram Krishnaswamy, who first pushed the idea of a limited induction of the homegrown fighter even if it did not fully meet service requirements, argues that the aircraft needs to be delivered without any further delay. “Once it is delivered, all outstanding issues can be ironed out and our pilots can get a chance to see what it is capable of. It is important to get it into service. That is the key.

Initial deliveries of the aircraft early next year will be to the Indian air force’s Aircraft & Systems Testing Establishment in Bangalore, where the platforms will be tested before formal induction into squadron service for a year-long exercise in defining a role for the Tejas. The service has ordered 20 Tejas Mk.1 jets (and is processing an order for 20 more), powered by the GE F414-IN20 for two inaugural squadrons that will be established at peninsular air bases after the Aero India show in February.

The Tejas program has embarked on putting the ostensibly more capable Tejas Mk.2 on track, as well. An ADA team is optimizing the Tejas airframe for the F414 powerplant and has initiated studies on the aircraft’s proposed operational envelope, fluid dynamics studies of new components and analysis of new engine components. The team is also producing fresh numerical master geometry and inboard drawings, a new digital mock-up of the entire Mk.2, and a wind tunnel model in collaboration with the National Aerospace Laboratory. The Tejas Mk.2 is scheduled to make its first flight in 2014, with full-rate production to follow two years later.

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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Postby geeth » 25 Nov 2010 09:23

I mean how would someone not associated with the program and the intake design know what amount of CFD analysis went into that design and what issues (if any) were seen? Or how does someone not associated with the test program know what is holding them back from high alpha tests as of now (aside from Ajai Shukla's claim that it has a chance of flame out at high alpha, there is no information on this). It will be quite like the blind men touching various parts of the elephant and trying to ascertain what it looks like based on that. It might end up misleading more than enlightening.


You are quite right on that point. IIRC, it took more than one month non-stop operation in the most powerful super computer at BARC to get a CFD solution for the LCA air intakes. What I mean to say is that it is a highly complex design and may not be possible to discuss beyond generalities.

People who are interested can get some idea about the flow around and inside the air-intakes of various types of aircrafts from the link I posted before.

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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Postby shiv » 25 Nov 2010 09:23

Looking at the Airshow performance, clearly the IAF set the bar high. And more power to them. The PAF and PLAAF are happy to accept what they get. There is nothing that is visible in the LCA's performance that puts it behind either Bandar or J-10 and I am dead certain that it will score over both in reliability, and availability and sortie rates because those are the things that were built into the design but cannot be seen in airshows.

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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Postby vic » 25 Nov 2010 09:51

IMHO The IAF will only be able to appreciate LCA in its true sense after it gets the first SPs, with the removal of excess weight of test & measuring instrumentation etc. I wonder whether LSP 7 & 8 will continue to have test & measuring instrumentation?

In addition it seems that an amount of almost Rs. 5000 crores has been budgeted for LCA Mark-2 four PV for IAF & IN which shows that this programme is being taken very seriously.

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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Postby vina » 25 Nov 2010 11:40

Has there been any official release that the LCA intakes would be modified on Mark II for want of higher AoA. I read somewhere that they will have to modify it for the new engines.


Normally I dont respond to such basic problems in reading comprehension , but I can give you a hint here, newer engine, higher mass flow rate , newer and larger intake. Check out the FA-18 E/F vs FA-18 A/B.

In fact, given the higher bypass of the GE-404/414, the mass flow rate will be higher than if the Kaveri was put in the fuselage. The auxiliary door probably accounts for that , given the intake was primarily designed for Kaveri, but can work mostly with the GE 404 (given the similar mass flow rates), but simply wont work with a much higher flow rate 414.

My guess is the full AoA envelope has not been opened out primarily because of FBW maturity and confidence to do it in one big jump, rather de-risking by doing it incrementally learning along the way. A consultant/advisor can show the way to de-risk and do it in one step.

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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Postby kmc_chacko » 25 Nov 2010 12:48

shukla wrote:LCA Tejas Falls Short of Earlier Expectations
Aviation Week

“We are still working to get the platform on track for initial operational clearance,” says an air force officer. “It appears the exercise of resolving certain performance parameters will spill over into the post-induction phase,” he notes. “There was a very committed effort toward envelope expansion, though we have fallen short in certain key specifications, which we will continue to work on.”

Former air force chief Srinivasapuram Krishnaswamy, who first pushed the idea of a limited induction of the homegrown fighter even if it did not fully meet service requirements, argues that the aircraft needs to be delivered without any further delay. “Once it is delivered, all outstanding issues can be ironed out and our pilots can get a chance to see what it is capable of. It is important to get it into service. That is the key.

Initial deliveries of the aircraft early next year will be to the Indian air force’s Aircraft & Systems Testing Establishment in Bangalore, where the platforms will be tested before formal induction into squadron service for a year-long exercise in defining a role for the Tejas. The service has ordered 20 Tejas Mk.1 jets (and is processing an order for 20 more), powered by the GE F414-IN20 for two inaugural squadrons that will be established at peninsular air bases after the Aero India show in February.

The Tejas program has embarked on putting the ostensibly more capable Tejas Mk.2 on track, as well. An ADA team is optimizing the Tejas airframe for the F414 powerplant and has initiated studies on the aircraft’s proposed operational envelope, fluid dynamics studies of new components and analysis of new engine components. The team is also producing fresh numerical master geometry and inboard drawings, a new digital mock-up of the entire Mk.2, and a wind tunnel model in collaboration with the National Aerospace Laboratory. The Tejas Mk.2 is scheduled to make its first flight in 2014, with full-rate production to follow two years later.


I didn't understand why IAF cann't keep quiet regarding indigenous platforms. They should first induct that platform and try to upgrade it instead speaking in such a way. If their wish list of expectation of requirements are so high then they should convince the GoI to buy either F-22s or F-35s which may satisfy them.

Firstly they should understand where they stand in technologically and numerically. If we compare 3 services IN is far far ahead in inducting indigenous equipments that also through not compromising on their operational capability. Where as IAF & IA always expect high in first batch and get itself into a bad shape. If we compare procurement of Howzards, Tanks, Ships and fighters we can understand that Ships are inducted in good numbers since INs confidence over local ships our ship builders are booked full of orders. Where are IA hesitate to induct Arjun not ready to look at Indigenous Guns and IAF consistently says publically that LCA is not upto its expectation. That will surely decrease the enthusiasm of scientists who work day and night to present a product.

I feel IN should be allowed to build its own airforce like USN because IN supports Naval LCA more than IAF it has even invested and provided mens and lay downed its requirement.

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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Postby Philip » 25 Nov 2010 15:13

Chacko,the IN cannot "build" its own air arm because of the smaller numbers and variety of types.It operates carrier STOVL Harriers,plus LRMP TU-142 Bears,IL-38 Mays,DO-228s,and several ASW,AEW and utility helos.It is now inducting about 48 MIG-29Ks plus is actively pursuing the LCA-N for STOBAR ops from its carriers on order (Gorshkov/Vik and IAC-1).For future carriers,one would expect a stealth aircraft,possibly a naval variant of the FGFA,naval Rafale or even the JSF if affordable and if it comes "fully loaded".The IAF on the other hand can acquire a type in the hundreds making it cost-effective to do so.

PS:Many tx. to Shiv for the video clip comparisons of the LCA and PRC fighters.The LCA's superior agility comes out very well.This is an important fact as if you check out the MMRCA thread,there is an interesting debate going on about the value of WVR combat in the age of BVR.A good comparison of contenders in a post by Kartik.I've also posted a couple of excerpts form western experience of the same.The IAF (Israelis) plave great emphasis on cloe combat and have retained the gun/cannon on their fighters as at least 30% of their kills have come from such combat.

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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Postby Nihat » 25 Nov 2010 15:48

shukla wrote:LCA Tejas Falls Short of Earlier Expectations
Aviation Week

“We are still working to get the platform on track for initial operational clearance,” says an air force officer. “It appears the exercise of resolving certain performance parameters will spill over into the post-induction phase,” he notes. “There was a very committed effort toward envelope expansion, though we have fallen short in certain key specifications, which we will continue to work on.”

Former air force chief Srinivasapuram Krishnaswamy, who first pushed the idea of a limited induction of the homegrown fighter even if it did not fully meet service requirements, argues that the aircraft needs to be delivered without any further delay. “Once it is delivered, all outstanding issues can be ironed out and our pilots can get a chance to see what it is capable of. It is important to get it into service. That is the key.

Initial deliveries of the aircraft early next year will be to the Indian air force’s Aircraft & Systems Testing Establishment in Bangalore, where the platforms will be tested before formal induction into squadron service for a year-long exercise in defining a role for the Tejas. The service has ordered 20 Tejas Mk.1 jets (and is processing an order for 20 more), powered by the GE F414-IN20 for two inaugural squadrons that will be established at peninsular air bases after the Aero India show in February.

The Tejas program has embarked on putting the ostensibly more capable Tejas Mk.2 on track, as well. An ADA team is optimizing the Tejas airframe for the F414 powerplant and has initiated studies on the aircraft’s proposed operational envelope, fluid dynamics studies of new components and analysis of new engine components. The team is also producing fresh numerical master geometry and inboard drawings, a new digital mock-up of the entire Mk.2, and a wind tunnel model in collaboration with the National Aerospace Laboratory. The Tejas Mk.2 is scheduled to make its first flight in 2014, with full-rate production to follow two years later.


The IAF wants the moon and the HAL, ADA , DRDO et all promise to deliver it too - this is just a big huge circus. I don't know how reliable this article is as it quotes only "sources" and that should never be blindly trusted as it can only mask the writers opinions (good or bad).

@ kmc_chako - I concur with you in letter and spirit, there is a reason why IN has surged ahead in self dependency and IAF is only getting its head out of the sand now. The only solution to this is is the forces and DRDO + other agencies work with each other and understand what the force wants and what can be realistically delivered. I reckon that's happening now a little bit with the IAF and associated LCA programe but IA is lagging waayyy... behind.

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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Postby kmc_chacko » 25 Nov 2010 17:53

Philip wrote:Chacko,the IN cannot "build" its own air arm because of the smaller numbers and variety of types.It operates carrier STOVL Harriers,plus LRMP TU-142 Bears,IL-38 Mays,DO-228s,and several ASW,AEW and utility helos.It is now inducting about 48 MIG-29Ks plus is actively pursuing the LCA-N for STOBAR ops from its carriers on order (Gorshkov/Vik and IAC-1).For future carriers,one would expect a stealth aircraft,possibly a naval variant of the FGFA,naval Rafale or even the JSF if affordable and if it comes "fully loaded".The IAF on the other hand can acquire a type in the hundreds making it cost-effective to do so.


So from your point LCA-N is only for its Aircraft Carriers i.e., Gorshkov/Vik and IAC-1 & 2 let me calculate how many LCA-N will IN need
Gorshkov - 16-20 Mig29/LCA
IAC-1 - 25-30 Mig29/LCA
IAC-2 - 30-35 Mig29/LCA

a maximum of 100 fighters on which IN already inducted 45 Mig-29Ks and RFI is requested for further air arm to Boeing & LM (reference from wiki)

Is that right ? If Yes, then there is option not more that 20-30 LCA-Ns and not more than that.

IN which need approx 50 LCA-N is so keen on project (even invested & deputed person for testing) and there is another guy IAF who is running shortage of fighters and beating drum around and saying LCA is not upto the expectation. Yes, I cannot compare IN with IAF, because their requirements are different, but fact is IAF is more keen on getting materials Imported than developing it. if IAF was keen on this project they would have fully cooperated and inducted LCA and speed up the upgradation process. If so Mk2 would be realized in 2012 instead of flying in 2014 (Just look how Chinese inducted J-10Bs upgraded to J-10B). for information Chinese have already have more than 100 J-10s (production started in 2004)

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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Postby SaiK » 25 Nov 2010 18:39

IAF is perfectly correct in stating the requirements and asking for the delivery of the same. They will work on getting those deficiency corrected in phases. Relax, and trust our developers.

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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Postby Philip » 25 Nov 2010 18:49

Chacko,the IN hasn't the aerospace R&D facilities.They have great expertise at designing warships and now N-subs too.The problem is that aircraft dsigning is in the hands of the ADA/DRDO/HAL/NAL,etc.,take your pic.NUmbers being so small they have to rely upon the other agencies for their indigenous fighter,the LCA-N.That the IN is pushing the development of it hard,is an indication of its committment to possessing an indigenous naval fighter.Where they should look further and more ambitiously is in developing carrier UCAVs,as the US is doing and also a manned carrier stealth fighter,which could be achieved if the IN also joins the FGFA programme,which it should.With the IAF acquiring 250-300 FGFAs,another 60-100 for the IN would bring down cost considerably and commonality with the IAF in combined ops.

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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Postby Kanson » 25 Nov 2010 18:57

shukla wrote:LCA Tejas Falls Short of Earlier Expectations
Aviation Week

“We are still working to get the platform on track for initial operational clearance,” says an air force officer. “It appears the exercise of resolving certain performance parameters will spill over into the post-induction phase,” he notes. “There was a very committed effort toward envelope expansion, though we have fallen short in certain key specifications, which we will continue to work on.”

Former air force chief Srinivasapuram Krishnaswamy, who first pushed the idea of a limited induction of the homegrown fighter even if it did not fully meet service requirements, argues that the aircraft needs to be delivered without any further delay. “Once it is delivered, all outstanding issues can be ironed out and our pilots can get a chance to see what it is capable of. It is important to get it into service. That is the key.


I guess, they are rehashing the old news again & again.

it still will not be the fighter the air force had agreed to accept for limited squadron service. Performance specifications that the Aeronautical Development Agency (ADA) has not been able to attain include sustained turn rate, speed at low altitude, angle of attack and certain weapon delivery profiles. Exactly how far off the performance is from the specification remains classified.
This was already covered and accepted by both parties on standards in which IOC will be obtained. Nothing new.

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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Postby Lalmohan » 25 Nov 2010 20:01

you see, the dhoti shivering LCA sdre is 1/10th of an idli eating phiter...
whilst tfta jf17 thandaar is 10 x supadupa bifeating phiter
all makes ferpeckt sense

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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Postby Sancho » 25 Nov 2010 22:23

kmc_chacko wrote:
Philip wrote:Chacko,the IN cannot "build" its own air arm because of the smaller numbers and variety of types.It operates carrier STOVL Harriers,plus LRMP TU-142 Bears,IL-38 Mays,DO-228s,and several ASW,AEW and utility helos.It is now inducting about 48 MIG-29Ks plus is actively pursuing the LCA-N for STOBAR ops from its carriers on order (Gorshkov/Vik and IAC-1).For future carriers,one would expect a stealth aircraft,possibly a naval variant of the FGFA,naval Rafale or even the JSF if affordable and if it comes "fully loaded".The IAF on the other hand can acquire a type in the hundreds making it cost-effective to do so.


So from your point LCA-N is only for its Aircraft Carriers i.e., Gorshkov/Vik and IAC-1 & 2 let me calculate how many LCA-N will IN need
Gorshkov - 16-20 Mig29/LCA
IAC-1 - 25-30 Mig29/LCA
IAC-2 - 30-35 Mig29/LCA

a maximum of 100 fighters on which IN already inducted 45 Mig-29Ks and RFI is requested for further air arm to Boeing & LM (reference from wiki)

Is that right ? If Yes, then there is option not more that 20-30 LCA-Ns and not more than that.

IN which need approx 50 LCA-N is so keen on project (even invested & deputed person for testing) and there is another guy IAF who is running shortage of fighters and beating drum around and saying LCA is not upto the expectation. Yes, I cannot compare IN with IAF, because their requirements are different, but fact is IAF is more keen on getting materials Imported than developing it. if IAF was keen on this project they would have fully cooperated and inducted LCA and speed up the upgradation process. If so Mk2 would be realized in 2012 instead of flying in 2014 (Just look how Chinese inducted J-10Bs upgraded to J-10B). for information Chinese have already have more than 100 J-10s (production started in 2004)


Migs and N - LCAs are only for Gorshkov and IAC1 (1 mixed airwing each and 1 in reserve), IAC2 is planed to be a CATOBAR carrier and IN has issued an RFI for carrier fighters that could be used on it (most likely Rafale, or F18SH).
It's doubtful that IN will induct big numbers of N-LCA, simply because it is not capable enough and will have very limited payload only, just like the Sea Gripen that Saab is planing.

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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Postby Sid » 26 Nov 2010 10:45

VAYU - Wisdom Courage An Assessment Of The LCA Tejas

Prof Prodyut Das

http://www.scribd.com/doc/39718239/VAYU-Wisdom-Courage-An-Assessment-Of-The-LCA-Tejas

Another article very critical of complete LCA program (damn... even calling the whole design BS).

Wazzup with so many -ve reports when LCA is almost at the goal-post.

In contrast ALH program was much better handled, it silently got commissioned. Even with glitches its still going strong.


Take my words back. Thanks Sriman.

Rahul, I do follow this thread but missed its earlier posts. No need for such a tone.
Last edited by Sid on 26 Nov 2010 11:25, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Postby Sriman » 26 Nov 2010 11:00

Sid, that article has already been posted..

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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Postby Rahul M » 26 Nov 2010 11:00

it's not another article, it's the same article that has been posted a dozen pages and more than a month back (and shredded if I might add). please do not keep posting the same old articles without bothering to read the thread.

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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Postby vic » 26 Nov 2010 19:55

I call for more orders for LCA Mark-1!! After-all it will be better than our oldest Mig-21s(?)

If we think that LCA Mark-2 will be roughly in league of Gripen NG and Sea Gripen, then its MTOW may go upto 16,000kg with increase in payload and increase in range. LCA N Mark-2 launched from catapault may be give the performance equivalent to Mig-29K from a STOBAR

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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Postby Gagan » 26 Nov 2010 20:10

Marten wrote:Three FOUR(!) flights since this morning. Something is up!

Yay !!!
vic wrote:I call for more orders for LCA Mark-1!! After-all it will be better than our oldest Mig-21s(?)

But why go in for more Mark-1s?
By the time the 20+20 Mark-1s roll out of the lines and join the IAF, Mark-2 will be ready for mass production.
Makes more sense to acquire the more capable Mark-2 phyter instead of the earlier tranche.

In fact I would suggest the opposite - If the Mark-2 comes in sooner, convert the remaining Mark-1s still to be built into Mark-2 planes. That is as long as it doesn't mess up servicing and spares in a squadron - Don't want to add to an IAF squadron's difficulties by having two different engine types, different levels of aircraft.

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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Postby SaiK » 26 Nov 2010 21:40

Squadron a year or two is what I want.. and the previous year's ones gets back for upgrades. Let's get into business here. Romp in other public/private sector for LRUs.

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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Postby Gagan » 27 Nov 2010 06:43

Sometimes one gets the feeling that there are some in the defence forces who are too perfectionist in their approach.

I'll bet if the IAF acquires the PAK-FA, F-22 or the F-35, there will be people who will have somethings to say about the inadequacies of the three aircraft.

So let us listen to the storm in a tea cup that is being raised about the LCA. What part of Light and small agile fighter did some people didn't understand is beyond me.

I for one don't give too much attention to such undue criticism, I would request others to not get worked up over this either.

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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Postby Gagan » 27 Nov 2010 06:47

Because of the different engine, and the different level of tech going into the mark-2, I suspect the mark-1 won't be upgradeable to the mark-2 levels. We might have a mark-1+ as an upgrade though.

But correct me if I am wrong.

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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Postby Indranil » 27 Nov 2010 11:12

Gagan wrote:Because of the different engine, and the different level of tech going into the mark-2, I suspect the mark-1 won't be upgradeable to the mark-2 levels. We might have a mark-1+ as an upgrade though.

But correct me if I am wrong.


I can speculate as much as you can.

But I am almost sure that Mark1 will not be upgradable to Mark II. Mark II is structurally wider and longer and with different intake structure.

Mark-1+ will only carry avionics/radar/EW upgrades similar to Mark II.

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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Postby Mihir.D » 27 Nov 2010 11:26

I don't know if this is a valid idea but since we are going for the LCA MK2 with structural changes can't we put some more effort and develop it into a silent eagle type platform ?
I might be talking out of my musharraf here but is that a feasible idea? Its a newbie question.. Please don't kick my musharraf .

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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Postby Indranil » 27 Nov 2010 12:51

What would you like to go silent on the LCA?

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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Postby Philip » 27 Nov 2010 12:58

The best way forward in accellerating the LCA's torturous dev. is to get the first two sqds. operational,in whatever form they come.As many have said,at least they won't be worse than the older series of MIG-21s-not the Bisons,that they're replacing.This will give the IAF the luxury of evaluating a large niumber of LCAs and determining what the final profile of LCA MK-2 should be.If the MMRCA choice also brings with it,as it should an immediate transfer of obe or two sqds. of existing fighters from the winning camp,then the numbers gap will to a large extent be kept as narrow as possible in the transitional phase of LCAs replacing the large numbers of MIG-21s.Other than open source info,there is going to be little given away in detail with whatever problems have to be overcome,barring generalities.

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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Postby Gagan » 27 Nov 2010 21:07

indranilroy wrote:Mark-1+ will only carry avionics/radar/EW upgrades similar to Mark II.

:idea:
Indeed, the Mark-1+s can be the 'growlers' in the pack of Mark-2 LCAs !

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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Postby Yagnasri » 27 Nov 2010 22:32

Gurus please tell me what way Mk1 will be bad. We basically need a bread and butter fighter to replace old version mig21's. Mk1 is more than sufficient for that. In a A2A role even with a "weak" eng it will be more than a match for many of the chipanda or TSP bunders. So why not have good no of Mk1 and when Mk2 ready let us have that too.

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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Postby Indranil » 27 Nov 2010 22:33

Philip wrote:.As many have said,at least they won't be worse than the older series of MIG-21s-not the Bisons,that they're replacing.


Philip sir, didn't get the meaning of your sentence properly. Do you mean that the LCAs in their present form are better than the older Mig-21s but not the Bisons?

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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Postby Indranil » 27 Nov 2010 22:37

Narayana sir, Gaganji has answered your question just a couple of posts before yours.

But why go in for more Mark-1s?
By the time the 20+20 Mark-1s roll out of the lines and join the IAF, Mark-2 will be ready for mass production.
Makes more sense to acquire the more capable Mark-2 phyter instead of the earlier tranche.


the mark-1 won't be upgradeable to the mark-2 levels.

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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Postby RKumar » 27 Nov 2010 23:11

<irony>By the time mk2 will be ready there will be some other problem ... then lets wait for mk3. </irony>

Kindly check Su-30MKI versions, what was initially inducted, what we have and what we are going to have in future. Lets go on the same path again. Induct LCA mk1 today when LCA mk2 is there replace them with mk2. May be sell mk1 to some other country which is happy with whatever they can get or use them as advance training platform. In the meantime develop operational experience and find must to close gaps then some fancy star-wars stuff.

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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Postby Drishyaman » 27 Nov 2010 23:44

Mihir.D wrote:I don't know if this is a valid idea but since we are going for the LCA MK2 with structural changes can't we put some more effort and develop it into a silent eagle type platform ?
I might be talking out of my musharraf here but is that a feasible idea? Its a newbie question.. Please don't kick my musharraf .


indranilroy wrote:What would you like to go silent on the LCA?


Mihir guess Indranil spared your musharraf as you wished :rotfl:

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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Postby Cain Marko » 28 Nov 2010 00:38

Marten wrote:
indranilroy wrote:Philip sir, didn't get the meaning of your sentence properly. Do you mean that the LCAs in their present form are better than the older Mig-21s but not the Bisons?

How could ANYTHING be better than Russki maal, eh? Sheesh Indranil, why did you bother asking? :)


Not so fast - the current LCA, while superior in some aspects, still has certain areas that make it rather unready. There is little doubt however, that it will soar past the MiG-21 (bison or not) when it is fully ready, even in Mk1 mode. But that will probably be another couple of years.

CM.

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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Postby Rahul M » 28 Nov 2010 00:39

even right now it is at par better with the floggers. the only area lacking vis-a-vis the bison is a not yet certified radar.

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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Postby Cain Marko » 28 Nov 2010 00:45

Floggers? Probably, since it can carry pretty much the same weight in ordinance and can use Lgbs, and can self escort with R73s. But fishbeds (bisons)? Can it pull 9gs - envelope expansion is still to take place right? No BVR missile either.

Btw, does it have a jammer integrated - EL-8222? How far are they in terms of the internal EW suite?

CM

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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Postby Rahul M » 28 Nov 2010 01:01

I don't think with the way the MC was designed integrating jammers would take too much time. it's even possible it has been done but they haven't bothered to tell us. :D

what is the G-limit of bisons ? 8, 8.5 G ?

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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Postby srai » 28 Nov 2010 03:26

indranilroy wrote:Narayana sir, Gaganji has answered your question just a couple of posts before yours.

But why go in for more Mark-1s?
By the time the 20+20 Mark-1s roll out of the lines and join the IAF, Mark-2 will be ready for mass production.
Makes more sense to acquire the more capable Mark-2 phyter instead of the earlier tranche.


the mark-1 won't be upgradeable to the mark-2 levels.


According to this interview with Air Marshal Philip Rajkumar (retd), LCA Mk.2 will "attain operational capability by 2018 and enter operational service with the IAF by 2020".
...
By when do you see these changes being completed and the LCA Mk-2 taking to the air with the GE-F414 engine?

I will be extremely happy if the LCA Mk-2 flies by 2015 and all these changes are completed in the next five years. If they are changes in chord of wing and length of fuselage, then the FCS will also need changes. All these would again require flight testing, though not as extensive as that of the LCA Mk-1. This will require a flight test schedule that will take 2 to 2.5 years in my opinion. The LCA Mk-2 would then attain operational capability by 2018 and enter operational service with the IAF by 2020. If we can achieve this, it would be commendable.
...


If the LCA Mk-2 is going to be ready around 2018, this would mean that the LCA Mk-1 production line at HAL can continue to manufacture until around 2016/17 before a switch to Mk-2 version, which can take place between 2017 and 2025. At 11 to 13 aircraft per year capacity, a seven year production run of the Mk-1 version would mean around 70 to 90 aircrafts. So I would think that ordering another 40 LCA Mk-1 would be the way to go until the Mk-2 is ready and production switches to it.

Summary of LCA Production run (2010-2025)
  • 2010-2014 -> 40 LCA Mk-1
  • 2014-2017 -> 40 LCA Mk-1
  • 2017-2025 -> 100 LCA Mk-2

Given that the 3 squadrons of MiG-27ML (non-upgraded) and 5 squadrons of MiG-21M/MF are set for an immediate retirement (within the next 5 years), LCA Mk-1 in its current form is more versatile and capable than these retiring MiGs. It would make sense to order more of these LCA in the Mk-1 version to fill-in the immediate force-level gaps until more capable Mk-2 version is ready for induction in around 2018.

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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Postby Karan M » 28 Nov 2010 03:37

SRai,

Exactly why I believe the IAF should order more MK1s asap. Instead, they are again going by their "we shall order the best" when it is available, approach, which ends up leaving unforeseen gaps in the force structure. In the mid-80's, early 90's, while the IAF was hankering for the best equipment there could be (and there were no funds for the same), the PAF managed to keep itself going quite well, by snapping up relatively cheap, surplus Mirage airframes wherever they could find them. They upgraded a few, and used the rest for spares. In contrast, the IAF was locked in a debate whether to get the Mirage 2000 or MiG-29 in numbers, and got neither. Today, the IAF is committing the same mistake, by not picking up a few or even a couple of extra squadrons of the LCA MK1, which could give it a substantial boost over its existing and slated to be retired MiG-21 and MiG-27s (and not even the Bisons) and that too, at prices much less than comparable aircraft worldwide. Even combat capable trainers, like the Hawk went at about 15 Million GBP, which considering inflation and other factors, would come in at the cost of a LCA MK1 today, or even if the LCA MK1 is a third more, expensive, it would be a huge capability boost at the price, considering it would come with modern avionics, including a radar and BVR missiles.

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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Postby Karan M » 28 Nov 2010 03:39

Cain Marko wrote:Floggers? Probably, since it can carry pretty much the same weight in ordinance and can use Lgbs, and can self escort with R73s. But fishbeds (bisons)? Can it pull 9gs - envelope expansion is still to take place right? No BVR missile either.

Btw, does it have a jammer integrated - EL-8222? How far are they in terms of the internal EW suite?

CM


http://www.dnaindia.com/bangalore/repor ... 27_1471748

“We have successfully integrated the present electronic warfare (EW) systems with MiG-27 fighters. It will be operational from 2011. Similarly, we’ll integrate EW systems with MiG-29 fighters and Tejas light combat aircraft (LCA) by 2011. They are likely to be operational by 2012,” said Prahlada.


This includes a jammer.


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