Are We Ready for a Two-front War ?

parshuram · Post by **parshuram** » 15 Jul 2010 14:44

nukavarapu wrote:How can porkis be this stupid ??? I am simply amazed by the extent of their musharrafs!

Water row key to India Pakistan Rivalry

excerpts:

For Pakistani farmer Ghulam Sarwar, only war with India can overcome the water shortages parching his crops and drying up his profits.

His family owns 85 acres (34 hectares) in northern Punjab, traditionally the bread basket of Pakistan but where the country's sizeable agriculture sector is finding it increasingly difficult to irrigate crops.

"This year water supply is less than last year. Crop earnings decline every year and water shortages have affected 50 percent of our agricultural business. The problems with India can only be resolved with war," said Sarwar.
So the TSP setup has successfully convinced the local junta, who got fooled by god with a musharraf for brain, that India is sucking away their water. Good method for the state militia to put the blame on SDREs for almost every problem in their life. Who knows, one of the jernails might be blaming yindoos for not getting his shaft to work for little ahem-ahem with his begam.

As I posted couple of days before in this very thread, that porki TSP heads will successfully use the water propaganda to divert the thinking of the masses away from their abysmal water management and energy crisis. If the whole porkis start thinking from their musharraf, the state wouldn't be left with any option, but to initiate a war. Something like blowing away the dams on our side. In such circumstances, it would get escalated to a full fledged war !!!

Not surprising though what a common Pakistani is saying it had noting to do with water of course Pakistani media has concatenated two issues just to make things more political , If you ask a common Indian he {like me} too want a war with Pakistan to settle issues for once and all. What a common Pakistani is saying is bound to happen even more in coming future as India grows and as Pakistan cannot.

There pre historic envy is turning into frustration and will grow more and Pakistani establishment simply knowing that they cannot do anything else will blame India and in fact with all ease that they can turn there common public against India with our 50 year old animosity it is rather easy for them and of course then can show world {of course this is there only chance} as masses are agitated and they are under immense pressure from public so either they attack India or India simply release more water under international pressure . A Black mailer will only do what he knows better You see ..

Now Pakistan simply don't have enough guts to blow dams because they know this is not going to solve problem in fact multiply it many folds.

Interesting point is what steps does GOI takes. It has to be stern and crystal clear to them
"Don't even think about it. If You do cross the line Then we are not going to spare you" kind of thing even on a little of provocation .

Kanan · Post by **Kanan** » 16 Jul 2010 21:03

India in talks to buy Iron Dome, David's Sling: http://www.bharatrakshak.com/NEWS/newsr ... wsid=13168

Looks like we are waking up to the cruise missile threats in our region! Definetely a positive step in augmentation of Defence Capabilities!

vivekmehta · Post by **vivekmehta** » 19 Jul 2010 16:52

what are the chances that any big misadventure by Let or any other pak based terrorist group during CWG may lead to war ? should we mobilize forces to build a pressure on pak to stop any kind of unwanted this happening .

Kanan · Post by **Kanan** » 20 Jul 2010 02:39

vivekmehta wrote:what are the chances that any big misadventure by Let or any other pak based terrorist group during CWG may lead to war ? should we mobilize forces to build a pressure on pak to stop any kind of unwanted this happening .

Hmm........If we do as you suggested;tensions will run high and CWG might altogether be cancelled! Athletes might defy a terrorist threat but war...? No way!

IMHO, we would not fare very well in a two front war NOW. But post 2020 (MKIs fully inducted, MMRCA, PAK-FA, Light Howitzers, Self-propelled Artillery, Pinaka, P-8s, Scorpenes, P-75I ,ATVs and Akulas......) ; we would more than give them a run for their money!

Telang · Post by **Telang** » 20 Jul 2010 03:25

Zero level of tolerance should mean, one IED blast by Puki terrorists at the CWG venue at H Hour, Pukistan gets wiped out from the face of the earth at H Hour plus flight time of ballistic missiles to Pukistan. I think all missiles should be armed and kept aimed in sufficient numbers to cover every square inch of Pukistan. I would like to chill in the nuclear winter blowing from Karachi - Islambad axis.

Gerard · Post by **Gerard** » 20 Jul 2010 03:31

Pakistani nuclear weapons cannot be wished away. They exist. They are a deterrent.

Kanan · Post by **Kanan** » 20 Jul 2010 05:04

Telang wrote:Zero level of tolerance should mean, one IED blast by Puki terrorists at the CWG venue at H Hour, Pukistan gets wiped out from the face of the earth at H Hour plus flight time of ballistic missiles to Pukistan. I think all missiles should be armed and kept aimed in sufficient numbers to cover every square inch of Pukistan. I would like to chill in the nuclear winter blowing from Karachi - Islambad axis.

wishful thinking at its best!

While I would like to do the same, as Gerrard has pointed out, it is nearly impossible that we can escape their second strike!

But 15-25 years down the line, when the gap between India and Pak becomes very wide, then India might be confident of disarming/neutralizing Pak nuclear assets and then run over them! But even at that juncture, there is always a huge risk!

It is not for nothing that the super powers are trying to stop nuclear prolifaration! Because once you are a nuclear power, nobody would want to mess with you big time!

nits · Post by **nits** » 20 Jul 2010 07:58

Not sure if this is posted here before...

Manishw · Post by **Manishw** » 21 Jul 2010 22:47

Kanan wrote:
Telang wrote:Zero level of tolerance should mean, one IED blast by Puki terrorists at the CWG venue at H Hour, Pukistan gets wiped out from the face of the earth at H Hour plus flight time of ballistic missiles to Pukistan. I think all missiles should be armed and kept aimed in sufficient numbers to cover every square inch of Pukistan. I would like to chill in the nuclear winter blowing from Karachi - Islambad axis.

wishful thinking at its best!

While I would like to do the same, as Gerrard has pointed out, it is nearly impossible that we can escape their second strike!

But 15-25 years down the line, when the gap between India and Pak becomes very wide, then India might be confident of disarming/neutralizing Pak nuclear assets and then run over them! But even at that juncture, there is always a huge risk!

It is not for nothing that the super powers are trying to stop nuclear prolifaration! Because once you are a nuclear power, nobody would want to mess with you big time!

So now we should wait for 15-25 years so that gap can widen further.My 2 cents says no 15-25 yrs are going to be available to us. If we don't have the capability to finish china with nukes then all this talk of economy shikonomy is a waste. Already we are being made to feel like impotent creatures against Pakistan and its 3.5 friends. this not going to change in a very long time, a luxury we don't have. Brahmma chellaney in a fairly recent article wrote that china had a ICBM before they started with liberalization. They achieved whatever they could after that.I hope that our nuclear strike capability is in place and the will to use it should be clearly demonstrated.Our nukes should be china centric because that is how we make the whole world shiver in their pants with global nuclear war.This two front war, action against Pakistan for terrorism and jhatka when time is right(of course situation should be accelerated by us) and giving middle finger salute to unkil will only come to pass as and when we do the needful otherwise we will continue to be a punching bag and the the world will smile as we make a mess of ourselves thinking big but being the ultimate bagholder.Lord Krishna has already shown us the way. Dharma and righteousness lies with us and we should not step back now.

JMT and other standard disclaimers apply.

Kanan · Post by **Kanan** » 22 Jul 2010 02:05

So now we should wait for 15-25 years so that gap can widen further.My 2 cents says no 15-25 yrs are going to be available to us. If we don't have the capability to finish china with nukes then all this talk of economy shikonomy is a waste.

The problem is our strike range at present is 700 kms! Neither Agni-II nor Agni-III is yet inducted! Both will undergo extensive testing before being inducted (easily another two years,atleast)! And you need money for R&D! So, economy is the backbone of any country, including China!

Already we are being made to feel like impotent creatures against Pakistan and its 3.5 friends. this not going to change in a very long time, a luxury we don't have

We, on the BRF, sometimes feel angry and frustrated ;but impotent? No way!

Brahmma chellaney in a fairly recent article wrote that china had a ICBM before they started with liberalization. They achieved whatever they could after that.I hope that our nuclear strike capability is in place and the will to use it should be clearly demonstrated.

Hmm..... And they have never used their ICBMs! Not against Taiwan, not S.Korea, not Japan, not India! That is the way it works, bro! We will not use them unless threatened badly!

Will to use is demonstrated through acute diplomacy,like China's, and not by actually using it!

Lord Krishna has already shown us the way. Dharma and righteousness lies with us and we should not step back now.

I hate to talk religion but here goes............Lord Krishna and Pandavas waited 14 years bearing all the Kaurava BS! Then they made numerous allies and resorted to war as the last resort! We need allies too, bro! To take on many nations, we need a few backing us up! Unless you plan to invade Maldives and Bhutan!

Frankly keep away from religion,friend! You neither seem to know it well nor does it belong in BRF! No offense meant,though! Religion really doesn't belong here!

I am happy that people like you are not running the country! Even the current BS foreign policy is better than going about nuking Pak and China without thinking about the consequences!

Manishw · Post by **Manishw** » 22 Jul 2010 09:17

The problem is our strike range at present is 700 kms! Neither Agni-II nor Agni-III is yet inducted! Both will undergo extensive testing before being inducted (easily another two years,atleast)! And you need money for R&D! So, economy is the backbone of any country, including China!

It is a shame then that since the time of Homi Baba,POK1, pvnr, POK2, , abv upto present we don't have anything beyond 700 K.M.If what you say is true than we are in deeper $hit than I thought but I guess the G.O.I did not send you a specific note.We are already close to a 2 trillion economy now, these things should have been taken care of by now , if not when are we going to take care of them, when we are a 50 Trillion economy? Anyway no offense mate but this is serious stuff , cut the rolleys please, Just a request if you think it is appropriate kindly add more.

We, on the BRF, sometimes feel angry and frustrated ;but impotent? No way!
I guess Its your idea of being funny.

Hmm..... And they have never used their ICBMs! Not against Taiwan, not S.Korea, not Japan, not India! That is the way it works, bro! We will not use them unless threatened badly!
Will to use is demonstrated through acute diplomacy,like China's, and not by actually using it!

Oh so the great Guru has come down from the pedestal to give gyaan to us mentally challenged people.Do you stop to think that all this is known to any body with even a lower I.Q. Who in his right mind will use it.These are for show and not use, any two bit analyst knows that.

I hate to talk religion but here goes............Lord Krishna and Pandavas waited 14 years bearing all the Kaurava BS! Then they made numerous allies and resorted to war as the last resort! We need allies too, bro! To take on many nations, we need a few backing us up! Unless you plan to invade Maldives and Bhutan!

Frankly keep away from religion,friend! You neither seem to know it well nor does it belong in BRF! No offense meant,though! Religion really doesn't belong here!

I am happy that people like you are not running the country! Even the current BS foreign policy is better than going about nuking Pak and China without thinking about the consequences

In case u did not understand it I was not talking of religion.Mahabharata is an epic which everybody in India can understand if china can talk about sun Tzu and 'art of war' and people in china can understand it, Mahabharat is also something that can be used as a template in Indian perspective unless you belong to the so called "secular" school of thought. Pandavas took all bull$hitt for 14 yrs, here we seem to be taking it for 60 yrs and people are asking for 15 -25 yrs more.Sir no need to get up close and personnel, whether I know of religion or not is not important, its more important that we stick to the subject in hand instead of personnel attacks and yes you can be happy since I don't intend running for office anytime in the future. Anyway this is my last post on this thread.

Christopher Sidor · Post by **Christopher Sidor** » 22 Jul 2010 10:25

IMHO, we would not fare very well in a two front war NOW. But post 2020 (MKIs fully inducted, MMRCA, PAK-FA, Light Howitzers, Self-propelled Artillery, Pinaka, P-8s, Scorpenes, P-75I ,ATVs and Akulas......) ; we would more than give them a run for their money!

The nature of the the beast is such that by 2020, China will also have acquired capability which would be at par, if not more than what you have pointed out. And in 2020 whatever china has, it will share with Pakistan. Dito, Pakistan will share with china whatever it has. Moreover the problem with all of the above weapon systems is that most of it is foreign supplied or controlled. If France can supply scorpenes to india, then it has supplied agosta submarines to Pakistan. Forget about which is superior, Scorpenes or Agosta, the point is that Pakistan has submarines which are capable of wrecking havoc on India, and it will continue to have access to such weapon systems. The same applies to China, non withstanding the EU and US ban on weapon systems export to china.
Till 2020, even if we are able to acquire capability to go on the offensive in EAST as well in the WEST, we will not be in a position to go on offensive on both the fronts simultaneously. One of these fronts India will have to be on the defensive and on the other front we will be in an offensive state.

It depends on the Indian economy, whether we will be able to fight an effective two front war. It will be a sustainable economy which will provide us the capability to buy/develop weapon systems. It will be the economy which will help us sustaining hostilities on both the fronts. Pakistan's economy is a basket case. It will not change much in the future. But it can be easily kept on life support by China/US/Saudi Arabia. And a Pakistan on life support will still have its nukes, its 5Lakh strong army. It is assumed that China's economy will be bigger than India's by 2020.
Unless and until there is a economic meltdown in China or Pakistan we will still be constrained by 2020 in a two front war.

Yagnasri · Post by **Yagnasri** » 22 Jul 2010 21:16

sustain growth, active preparation is a must from India to deter any war other wise we may be looking at war as early as 2012

chaanakya · Post by **chaanakya** » 22 Jul 2010 21:41

Manishw wrote: In case u did not understand it I was not talking of religion.Mahabharata is an epic which everybody in India can understand if china can talk about sun Tzu and 'art of war' and people in china can understand it, Mahabharat is also something that can be used as a template in Indian perspective unless you belong to the so called "secular" school of thought. Pandavas took all bull$hitt for 14 yrs, here we seem to be taking it for 60 yrs and people are asking for 15 -25 yrs more.

Anyway this is my last post on this thread.

Manishw, I am sure many of us would not realise, how deeply ingrained Mahabharat and Ramayan ethos are in our society.So far I have not found a situation in real life which does not have parallel in either of the epics. It can certainly act as a template, in fact , it does in subtle ways though we may not realise it. The problem is sekloor education do not include teachings from these epics and try to spoon feed ideas transplanted from elsewhere.( if you want to enslave a country, subvert its education system) There is urgent need to get in touch with our roots and search for directions out of our current predicaments. Probably you could have expounded on this "Template idea" but alas you said its your last post. Loss is to us only.

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 23 Jul 2010 11:31

chaanakya, Slightly OT but what is you opinion on the proliferation on the Telly of the various relegious shows starting with Ramayan. Do these help in connecting with the cultural roots.

chaanakya · Post by **chaanakya** » 24 Jul 2010 00:52

Pratyush wrote:chaanakya, Slightly OT but what is you opinion on the proliferation on the Telly of the various relegious shows starting with Ramayan. Do these help in connecting with the cultural roots.

The answer can not be a simple Yes or No. I could get a doctorate if I do research on this seemingly simple question of yours.
I would organise my ideas and post here in response.
Suffice to say, for the time being, that Ramayan and Mahabharata did touch a chord deep within the psyche of this country. I have been witness to strange actions while these serials were telecast. However , same was true with those serials which promoted "Indic ethos" and values. Now a days, people watch serials and get sick of it playing same type of drama day in day out.
I would endeavor to give detailed response later.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 24 Jul 2010 01:08

Not in this thread. Do that in the Indian movies thread.

D Roy · Post by **D Roy** » 24 Jul 2010 11:57

I had a feeling India was interested in the Iron Dome system ever since the 'Shadows in the Cloud' report. Remember that?

http://www.stratpost.com/india-under-ma ... ack-attack
It also mentioned Project Shakti and Pechora upgrade.

By the way Carlo Kopp on his site has a whole age dedicated to various levels of Pechora upgrades:
http://www.ausairpower.net/APA-Legacy-S ... ocId292453

also the main page on the S-125
http://www.ausairpower.net/APA-Legacy-S ... ocId292453

kittoo · Post by **kittoo** » 24 Jul 2010 16:02

chaanakya wrote:
Manishw wrote: In case u did not understand it I was not talking of religion.Mahabharata is an epic which everybody in India can understand if china can talk about sun Tzu and 'art of war' and people in china can understand it, Mahabharat is also something that can be used as a template in Indian perspective unless you belong to the so called "secular" school of thought. Pandavas took all bull$hitt for 14 yrs, here we seem to be taking it for 60 yrs and people are asking for 15 -25 yrs more.

Anyway this is my last post on this thread.
Manishw, I am sure many of us would not realise, how deeply ingrained Mahabharat and Ramayan ethos are in our society.So far I have not found a situation in real life which does not have parallel in either of the epics. It can certainly act as a template, in fact , it does in subtle ways though we may not realise it. The problem is sekloor education do not include teachings from these epics and try to spoon feed ideas transplanted from elsewhere.( if you want to enslave a country, subvert its education system) There is urgent need to get in touch with our roots and search for directions out of our current predicaments. Probably you could have expounded on this "Template idea" but alas you said its your last post. Loss is to us only.

I was fortunate enough to have Ramayan in our Hindi course in standard 6th and Mahabharat in standard 7th. Even though I was in a CBSE school (A Navodaya to be precise), we had this good fortune. I passed from that school in 2004 and I am sure they were teaching Ramayan and Mahabharat even at that time too. And since all Navodayas have same course, I guess I can be a little happy over the fact that there are at least these 500 schools in India that still teach these great epics.

Edit: Damn I thought we were in Indian Epics thread! Please move.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 27 Jul 2010 23:35

Another data point:

Looks like this item was missed.

Nightwatch, 26 July 2010

India: For the record. The Indian Finance Ministry on 26 July approved a restructuring plan for the Indo-Tibetan Border Police (ITBP), the Press Trust of India reported. Home Affairs Minister P. Chidambaram said the modernization plan, which was proposed by the Home Ministry in 2009, gives the ITBP 15 new battalions, three recruit training centers, a counterinsurgency and jungle warfare school, a high-altitude medical training center and additional materiel. The plan also allows ITBP to recruit additional support staff, ITBP chief R. K. Bhatia said. ITBP plans to conduct more short-range patrols along the borders, unnamed sources said.

Comment: The Indo-Tibetan Border Police (ITBP) is a paramilitary force established on 24 October 1962 for providing security along India's border with Chinese-occupied Tibet. It has more than 60,000 policemen in 55 battalions which areresponsible for 2,115 kilometers of border in the Himalayas. The expansion should take it to about 75,000 personnel, about 10,000 fewer than the Sashastra Seema Bal (SSB), which guards the mountain borders with Nepal and Bhutan. These two are the largest police forces, specializing in mountain police and combat duties.

The ITBP and the SSB are components of the more than half-million strong Central Paramilitary Forces which would come directly under the command of the Indian Armed Forces in wartime.

From time to time, Indian media will report piecemeal about upgrades to various forces along the China border. There are three kinds: Indian armed forces, Central Police Organizations and Central Paramilitary Forces, of which the ITBP is one of the most elite units.

The significance of today's report is that it reinforces that all forces along the China border from Kashmir to Burma are being upgraded. Upgrades to Indian Army units were featured items in Indian reporting last summer.

NightWatch uses as a predictive hypothesis that India expects to confront China in less than two decades. In some scenarios, this confrontation is part of a two front war with Pakistan, according to Indian strategists. Several years ago the Singh government ordered the start of long term preparations for a showdown.

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 28 Jul 2010 09:31

ITBP comes closest to IA in terms of training.....they man some of the toughest terrains in the world and do a commendable job. Along the LAC, more often that not, it is the ITBP post which is the last post before the LAC....they man the LAC shoulder to shoulder with IA.

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 28 Jul 2010 09:36

Rohit, If ITBP comes closest to IA in terms of training then what bout Assam Rifiles. Cause as i understand they are controled by the MOD.

Also should the ITBP not be controled by MOD as well considering where they operate?

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 28 Jul 2010 09:45

ITBP, unlike AR, is not officered by the IA. AR, for all practical purposes is like an Infantry Regiment of the IA. So, the comparison is not relevant. As for the control of ITBP - all is maya onlee when it comes to Indian Bureaucracy.....but since, ITBP is an Para-Mil force, it should be under the HM.

Christopher Sidor · Post by **Christopher Sidor** » 30 Jul 2010 22:55

Comment: The Indo-Tibetan Border Police (ITBP) is a paramilitary force established on 24 October 1962 for providing security along India's border with Chinese-occupied Tibet. It has more than 60,000 policemen in 55 battalions which areresponsible for 2,115 kilometers of border in the Himalayas. The expansion should take it to about 75,000 personnel, about 10,000 fewer than the Sashastra Seema Bal (SSB), which guards the mountain borders with Nepal and Bhutan. These two are the largest police forces, specializing in mountain police and combat duties.

If this news item is true, then it points to a crucial item, namely the strength of ITBP. It would be better if its strength be raised to least 1 Lakh or more. After all guarding 2115 kms of mountainous frontier is no mean feat. This dramatic increase would strain the budget of MHA. Also it would be better to shift ITBP's control from MHA to MoD. MHA which concentrates predominantly on internal threats, will not be able to provide ITBP the focus that it sorely needs. MHA's penchant for asking all of forces under its control to take part in internal security and counter terrorism is a folly.

ITBP should be removed, from duties which are not part of its original mandate, namely being the guardians of our mountains. It was supposed to be the first trip wire along the chinese border. Duties, like guarding Indian Embassy in Afghanistan, should ideally be taken up CISF or other paramilitary organizations like CRPF. I know that Afghanistan is a tough case with ground situation much akin to a war, and CISF might not be able to cope with it. But the solution is not to push ITBP to take this up. Rather, certain battalions of CISF can be upgraded to the required level and the responsibility handed over to it.
Basically guarding of all the fixed and stationary assets like airports, government installations, metro stations, our embassies, etc should be in the hand of CISF. ITBP should go back to focusing on what it was meant to do, keeping the Himalayas safe for India.

Rupak · Post by **Rupak** » 31 Jul 2010 01:15

As I noted elsewhere, it would be fallacy to say that the ITBP is trained to the same standard as the Army. They are primarily a police/border enforcement force and structured and oriented in that fashion. Yes they do operate in difficult terrain, but their orientation, morale and training is certainly not on par with the armed forces, or indeed the AR.

Christopher Sidor · Post by **Christopher Sidor** » 02 Aug 2010 23:01

The point I was making is that ITBP can serve as a force multiplier to the Indian Army, comparable to the legendary alpine troops of Europe, but even better. It is said in certain quarters that ITBP units have more fire power than an army infantry unit. (http://www.hindustantimes.com/ITBP-jawa ... 64538.aspx). As a dedicated Himalayas force, it would not have to worry like the indian army about fighting in the desert or non mountainous terrain. It can focus and become the best among the best at mountain fighting.

For example let us assume that 1/3rd of Indian Army is guarding our eastern and northern fronts, 1/3rd of the Indian Army is guarding our western front, while 1/3rd of the army is held back as reserve and is recuperating from active duty. Here active duty is posting on the western or eastern or northern front.
Now if a war were to break out in the east or tensions were to rise as they did in the late 1980s, then obviously 2/3rd of the army would concentrate on the eastern and northern front. It would not be feasible to shift 1/3rd of the army from western front to the eastern front and leave our western defences depleted. In such a situation, having ITBP, as a additional force will be a big boost for the Indian Army. We should ideally have ITBPs strength at least equal to 1/3rd of the Indian Armys strength if not more.

From the above example it should be clear that I am hoping that Indian Army gets pulled away entirely from internal security duties and concentrates on only two things, how to defeat the PLA and the Paki Army. Unless that happens, we will not be able to fight a two front war.

Christopher Sidor · Post by **Christopher Sidor** » 02 Aug 2010 23:09

Pratyush wrote:Rohit, If ITBP comes closest to IA in terms of training then what bout Assam Rifiles. Cause as i understand they are controled by the MOD.

Pratyush ji,
In case of Assam Rifles the officers are mostly deputed from the Indian Army. So we have the case of Indian Army's officers leading jawans of Assam Rifles. Also Assam Rifles are technically under MHA. While Assam rifles is a capable force in its own right, its purpose is getting diffused over the years. It has started fighting insurgency in north east, It provides manpower to army in case of any external tension in north east. It does relief work in case of natural disasters.

Y. Kanan · Post by **Y. Kanan** » 03 Aug 2010 01:21

Are We Ready for a Two-front War ?

This question is based on the assumption that we're ready for a one-front war...

aditya.agd · Post by **aditya.agd** » 03 Aug 2010 01:40

The irony is that India is ruled by profit mongers and business interests who are just interested in keeping India as their milking cow. There is no real leader who really thinks about the welfare of people. If welfare of people was the real concern then India will sufficiently invest in defence preparedness so that our population lives in peace. Then if it takes to fight a world war with China and Pakistan to win peace, then that be.

Unfortunately Indian politicians do not care and because leaders are blind the general people are following the blind leaders and there is no accountability and responsibility.

Ideally Indians have the brain power and strength to take on both Chinese and Pakistani policy makers and their militaries, but for our fickle uneducated politicians.

Indians should have a 1000 fighter airforce against China and 2 million standing Army to take on chinese and pakistanis together.

aditya.agd · Post by **aditya.agd** » 03 Aug 2010 01:44

At this moment we are not ready and with all the honesty of Anthony, he won't be able to prevent ignonimous defeat of Indian forces at the hands of Pakistn and China.

Thomas Kolarek · Post by **Thomas Kolarek** » 03 Aug 2010 03:24

Unless India has nuclear force levels required for a first strike against the much larger Chinese arsenal. Never think about countering China. Am talking about 200 - 300 operational nuclear warheads.

Vivek Raghuvanshi · Post by **Vivek Raghuvanshi** » 03 Aug 2010 08:41

Should not RAW consider Black Operations

Thomas Kolarek · Post by **Thomas Kolarek** » 03 Aug 2010 08:49

Wild Theory: RAW should preferably equip an Afghani Turk group, give them sophisticated smaller missiles, even smaller nuclear war heads and ask them to hit Pakistani Military establishment. Let Pakistan retaliate on Afghanistan (i.e, USA) and One front will be gone for sure

Christopher Sidor · Post by **Christopher Sidor** » 04 Aug 2010 21:02

The Point of fighting a war is to win. That is why it is recommended that fight only when victory is assured. The opposite of this, is that if you are forced to fight or defend yourself, make sure that your opponent cannot declare victory or does not achieve his or her goals, especially when faced with a more powerful entity.
Against Pakistan, we win. With China at the most we can do is force a stalemate. This is the most important difference. Stalemate. This might not be too the liking of many of us. But it is important one. A victory denied is victory achieved. China knows this. China also knows that its lines of communications are also stretched in Tibet. That is why it is building supply depots and underground bunkers in tibet. China might not make an outright move against India, but it can depend on its allies in South Asia to keep India distracted. Also it might apply a salami tactics. That is take small small bites off your enemy. So it first concentrates on twang, once it acquires that, then sikkim, then ladakh and so on.
Add to this is specter of a proxy war. Indian defense planners have to factor in the internal disturbances, from naxalites to Kashmiri insurgents to the various militant organizations of north east in case of any conflict.
All of our so-called foreign allies, will remain neutral in case of a conflict with china. 70% of our oil is supplied from outside, mainly from persian gulf. Oil/Gas is crucial to modern conduct of war. Hitler shifted the entire nazi army to concentrate on southern russia in 1942, just so that he could get access to the Caucasus oil fields, ignoring moscow and leningrad. This led to his downfall 3 years later. While the Persian gulf countries might not take sides against india, it cannot be assumed that they will help India.
Modern war is not only about weapons, ships, aircraft, etc. It is also about the economy, it is also about the industrial strength of one country, it is also about the cohesiveness of one country. In all of these factors India has a long way to go to catch up with China. Once we have done this, we can start with the next step, a two front war. Not now.

abhishekm · Post by **abhishekm** » 04 Aug 2010 22:52

Christopher Sidor wrote: While the Persian gulf countries might not take sides against india, it cannot be assumed that they will help India.

No doubt about the fact that India can expect little or no help from the Persian Gulf countries. Of the lot, India enjoys good relations with Oman but the UAE and Saudi might well provide some form of assistance to Pakistan. As far as Iran is concerned it's difficult to imagine them supporting Pakistan although I wouldn't be surprised if they do given India's shenanigans at the UN on Iran related issues. Bahrain, Qatar, etc. are too inconsequential and they don't carry much weight in the Persian Gulf.

Hopefully the day is not far when the coastal republic of Baluchistan will play a vital role in securing India's fuel supplies in the event of a war

ManuT · Post by **ManuT** » 05 Aug 2010 07:33

abhishekm wrote:... but the UAE and Saudi might well provide some form of assistance to Pakistan.

TSP has an agreement with UAE that allows it to requisition UAEs F16s (flown by TSPAF pilots) in case of war.
KSA palaces have been guarded by TSPA in the past.

johnny_m · Post by **johnny_m** » 05 Aug 2010 10:28

With the cold war over and Indo-U.S relations on the mend i doubt the U.S will allow UAE to give the F 16s to PAF. U.S equipment come with strings, I will be more worried about Saudi Typhoons.

Then again Saudi Arabia/UAE is well within range of our ballistic missiles, if push comes to shove we can warn them off any adventure.

Thomas Kolarek · Post by **Thomas Kolarek** » 05 Aug 2010 10:31

johnny_m wrote:With the cold war over and Indo-U.S relations on the mend i doubt the U.S will allow UAE to give the F 16s to PAF. U.S equipment come with strings, I will be more worried about Saudi Typhoons.

Then again Saudi Arabia/UAE is well within range of our ballistic missiles, if push comes to shove we can warn them off any adventure.

Don't worry we have Israel. We have powerful friends now

If we can keep Saudi and Turkey shut or stay neutral, there will be no savior for Pakistan.

Christopher Sidor · Post by **Christopher Sidor** » 05 Aug 2010 15:57

It is amazing that Indians believe that US, Israel, Russia, etc will help us in case on a conflict with Pakistan or China. They will not. Ditto for Iran. Even before India voted in IAEA against Iran, Iran was helping Pakistan. It paid Pakistan millions of dollars, to buy nuclear know-how. Dollars which went directly to enhance Pakistan nuclear arsenal. In 1971, Pakistan sent some of its fighters for safe keeping, not to saudi arabia but to Iran.
Israel has a long history of cooperating with China in weapon systems. Ditto for Russia. Russia sold China Su-30 MK fighters. It also sold china SU-33 naval fighters for the future Aircraft Carrier of China.

Viv S · Post by **Viv S** » 05 Aug 2010 16:18

Christopher Sidor wrote:It is amazing that Indians believe that US, Israel, Russia, etc will help us in case on a conflict with Pakistan or China. They will not. Ditto for Iran. Even before India voted in IAEA against Iran, Iran was helping Pakistan. It paid Pakistan millions of dollars, to buy nuclear know-how. Dollars which went directly to enhance Pakistan nuclear arsenal. In 1971, Pakistan sent some of its fighters for safe keeping, not to saudi arabia but to Iran.
Israel has a long history of cooperating with China in weapon systems. Ditto for Russia. Russia sold China Su-30 MK fighters. It also sold china SU-33 naval fighters for the future Aircraft Carrier of China.

India currently has cordial relations with Iran. Better than Pakistan anyway(read: Jundullah).
link link

Iran under the Shah(1971) doesn't really count. The new government reversed the existing foreign policy, including ties with the then pro-US Pakistan.