And I am very sure that they are very well informed. My claim or post was to be sarcastic and not literal.
You were making a point, and you are yet again making the same point that Chinese people are uninformed with regard to that incident. I am rejecting that viewpoint based on contact with actual Chinese people corroborated with outside information. Tell me, how many Chinese people have you asked about the incident?
Spare me, I never talked about liberalization, I talked about socio-economic progress and shinning glitters of modernization. A person being liberal is nothing to do with his economic stature. And I agree completely that liberalization would definitely backfire the leadership. Its the charms of modernization that can people amazed in materialistic offerings.
I rejected both definitions of liberalization. The opening up of China was an ongoing process that began in the late '70s, not the late '80s.
There is a economic gap in India between the rich and the poor but not the way it is in Chipanda. In india the economic gap is because of the socio-development and infrastructure between urban and rural areas. More to do with government planning and conducive environment. There is no deliberate motive of GOI to keep the poor poor and create a class. In fact the GOI is taking every step possible to bridge the gap. The gap has been gigantic is because of the lack of infrastructure in rural areas and lack of basic amenities like primary/secondary education. In India, though we have a rather socialistic labor laws, but the labor class decides, then they work, for how much they work and when they won't work. A person can stay a laborer if he decides to be a laborer all his life or else he can very well chose a different destiny. That is the root of Indian socialism. The only things that stop him is the absence of education or opportunities. If we had the kind of infrastructure that you chipanda has put in, I am more than 100% sure, the gap will never be that gigantic. Even with such poor infrastructure and all the possible lack of opportunities, our rural class is actually doing very well. During the recession this class was the one which drove the economy and not the urban class.
This makes no sense. If the GOI is doing all they can to bridge that gap, then why are rural areas' soco-development and infrastructure so far behind? Not all areas develop at the same rate in developing nations, that's the truth. What evidence do you have that Chinese rural areas' infrastructure is much better than Indian ones vis-a-vis Chinese and Indian urban areas respectively? You are trying to force this argument, I hope you can keep an open mind in this discussion. You obviously have a perception of China, but try not to force everything you may or may not know into that perception.
I agree to you whole heartedly and that is what is the main pinch in the entire 21st century picture of China. A country with higher GDP than India, lesser population than India, better infrastructure than India, is still very poor compared to India in terms of healthcare. In india no matter what kind of Revolution we have, nobody can stop us from going to college or create our own future. Its been like that and it will be like that as long as Indian society and our way of life exists.
The same goes for China, which is why the Chinese people love the direction of the country. I'll agree with you on the healthcare issue tho, I've heard some disgusting stories over the years. I don't think healthcare will ever be as good as India's though, it's partly a cultural issue. Based on what I've heard, doctors in India have very high pay and status, that's simply never been the case in China. Heck, I'm going into medicine myself and all my Chinese relatives tried to persuade me to do engineering instead! (based on what my Indian friends tell me, that should sound pretty ridiculous to an Indian)
I will take your claim with a pinch of salt about 90% literacy. There is no UN report to claim that unless if you can provide. When it comes to chipanda, I will believe only reports from UN because they only compile a report if they are allowed to do their work freely without any restrictions. But I do agree that the literacy rate has improved. One question, if the so called literacy rate is 90% and chipanda is doing so good in improving the socio-economic status, how come they are having such a huge no. of cheap laborers? You mean to say people attending colleges and doing graduation still end up as laborers? Is just having a basic literacy to write/read letters and count numbers guarantee a better career? Is it the lack of opportunities? How can that be with the kind of GDP growth and industrial revolution going on?
So now you're picking and choosing which statistic to believe? It's very rare to meet an illiterate younger person in China, most of the illiterate people are pretty old. It's obvious that you have little real knowledge of China, go walk around in the country, see if you can find many illiterate people. How come they have such a huge no. of cheap laborers? Competition. In case you forgot, there are 1.3 billion people in China. Divide China's GDP by 1.3 billion, what do you have? You have what the west would consider a poor man. Is there a lack of opportunities? Of course there is. China wouldn't be a developing country if there wasn't. In order for the average Chinese person to make as much as an average American, China's GDP needs to quadruple America's. China is still many decades away from having as many opportunities per capita as the U.S.
Thats the biggest joke I heard all day. It seems you have no idea about the 10% GDP growth during recession. Its an inflation created by rampant investment in Real Estate creating a huge bubble, far bigger than Dubai or Greece. When exports fell, that was how 10% GDP growth achieved. If you wanna better understand what I am saying, you should hang out in the China Economy thread. Or economy gurus like RamaY explain to you. You have no idea how big risk this bubble carries.
China has a very long way to go to become a consumer driven economy. You can counter my claims by saying the Car sales etc. We also have records which prove that the record cars sails may be false. If even they are true, a self-sustaining economy based on domestic consumption cannot be declared in 1 - 2 years. It needs to have a consistent record of atleast 10 years, where domestic consumption played for more than 50% of GDP and atleast more than 60% in the actual GDP growth. BTW domestic consumption during recession to boost GDP Growth numbers cannot be called as a true domestic consumption.
I seriously hope that this bubble does not burst the way it looks right now. Keeping geo-politics and national pride aside, it might bring a very tough time to the people of Chipanda. Well, being your neighbors we won't be left unscathed by this bubble.
How incredibly ironic! While making fun of my post, you made THE gigantic joke. I mean, come on! A bubble real estate economy is the cause of a TEN PERCENT increase in GDP? Are you serious? Do you realize how much 10% of China's GDP is? That's, nominally, 400 BILLION dollars! In one year! Do you really think that inflated real estate in a handful Chinese cities can result in that much GDP growth? One of the worst real estate bubble cities, Beijing, happens to be where many of my relatives live, so I know what the prices there are like. Yes, it's sky high, but it's been that way, space is precious in eastern China. But I was in the states when the American bubble economy was booming. My landlord sold my apartment for $100,000 about 10 years back. It was resold 5 years later at $350,000. Now THAT's a bubble economy. How much did America's GDP grow during that period? Anywhere even near 10% a year? Nope.
Please you, or RamaY, explain to me how that happens!
I agree that domestic consumption doesn't happen in a year. In fact I stated that it is a part of CCP's long term vision. However, increased domestic consumption has been an ongoing process in China. When I left China ~15 year ago, owning a car was unthinkable. My parents would've had to save up for 10 years while spending $0(obviously unrealistic) to buy one. When I went back last summer, I had no trouble getting around in any city, because we could always find a relative or a friend who has a car and has time to help us out. I don't know if the numbers are fudged, but car ownership in China is exploding and that's a fact. Now, with that said, I agree that China has a LONG way to go to become a consumer-driven economy, but you are seriously underestimating the rapid changes China has undergone.
As for the bubble economy, it won't have a dramatic burst like the U.S. one. Chinese legislators are much more proactive than their American counterparts. Just a few years ago, I could've gotten a loan to buy a house in the U.S. without any money nor even a job. In China, a recent law prohibits a person from buying more than 1 residence and the housing loans are much more difficult to obtain.
My friend, you really need to open your mind. I know you already have a pretty deeply ingrained notion of how China is and what it is about, but things change quickly and if you filter all new information through your existing web of perception, you'll always skew your views toward your preconceived ones. There is a funny saying among the Chinese nationals in the states, "in China we'd spend all day trashing our government, but in America we spend all day defending it!" That's because China has many problems, problems that Chinese people know all too well, but all these problems are magnified 10x by the western media and Chinese people living in the west have to often go "wait a minute, it's bad, but not THAT bad!"