Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby Gaur » 06 Mar 2011 15:52

Christopher Sidor wrote:good work. one more step closer to field a rudimentary BMD shield. I certainly hope that this project does not go under long gestation period.

What do you find "rudimentary" about it? Just curious.


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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby shiv » 06 Mar 2011 19:45



The interesting thing to me here is that the missile was intercepted at 16 km. I really don't know what speed the incoming missile was travelling at that point but I would have thought that Mach 4 is not an unreasonable figure? I am guessing something in the region of 1000 to 1500 meters per sec? That means that a missile that is not intercepted at that level will hit in 10-15 seconds.

There is of course an even closer range ABM system - and India seems to have invested in that as well - although imported. That is the Israeli "Iron Dome" and "David's Sling". Photos of the actual missiles exist in the AI 2011 gallery.

Ideally we must have at least a 3 tier system.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby NRao » 06 Mar 2011 20:15

Shiv,

Both those are meant for short range missiles - they were developed with their friends with those Russian "rockets" in mind. Do not know if they will work with BMs.

India seems to have covered the range for BMs: exo and endo. Two layers. For the time being?

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby Vipul » 06 Mar 2011 20:32

More upcoming tests:

DRDO sources said in the next one week more missiles would be tested off Bay of Bengal. On March 9, the K-15 missile would be testfired from Vizag coast while Dhanush, the naval version of Prithvi would be tested off Puri coast from a ship. On the same day, Prtihvi-2 missile would be testfired from Chandipur coast.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby RKumar » 06 Mar 2011 21:40

^^ Cool ... it seems we on the end of steep learning curve ... congrats to every one involved :)

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby shiv » 06 Mar 2011 21:45

Vipul wrote:More upcoming tests:

DRDO sources said in the next one week more missiles would be tested off Bay of Bengal. On March 9, the K-15 missile would be testfired from Vizag coast while Dhanush, the naval version of Prithvi would be tested off Puri coast from a ship. On the same day, Prtihvi-2 missile would be testfired from Chandipur coast.


paging wen

Please note and tip off the chicom party and earn a brownie.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby Baldev » 07 Mar 2011 01:59

drdo should develop anti radar missile as well.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby chackojoseph » 07 Mar 2011 07:39

Baldev wrote:drdo should develop anti radar missile as well.


Once they develop loitering missiles or UAV's then they can. If you are mentioning known permenant radar stations, then our mijjiles are enough. Till then they are using Harpy's.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby chackojoseph » 07 Mar 2011 07:43

shiv wrote:Ideally we must have at least a 3 tier system.


We are developing layed. Sometime back, they were supposed to test the layered system. India to test Layered Missile Defence . They didn't and decided to test it in single layers.

What they are trying to do is conduct the test at various altitudes for validation.

BTW, the 2012 deadline for deployment of ABM system in India is next year..... :mrgreen:

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby NRao » 07 Mar 2011 07:55

I think we missed an important point: it took of from a truck:

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-WvT8Ty3zhXc/T ... 794309.JPG

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby neerajb » 07 Mar 2011 10:17

dinesha wrote:This book can be brought in India from filpkart.com .. for me that was the cheapest place at around Rs.600/-


When did you buy it? It seems they have jacked up the prices, now showing 1150 INR.

Cheers....

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby shiv » 07 Mar 2011 10:37

http://www.thehindu.com/news/national/a ... 515159.ece
Capability to neutralise enemy satellites proved
The fresh success of the interceptor missile mission on Sunday has demonstrated the country's capability to neutralise adversarial satellites in space, according to V.K. Saraswat, Scientific Adviser to the Defence Minister.

India has “all the technologies and building blocks which can be used for anti-satellite missions” in the low-earth and polar orbits. However, “India's policy is that it will not weaponise space, and we are committed to the peaceful uses of outer space,” he said.

Out of the six interceptor missions conducted so far by the Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO), five have been successful.
“Fantastic success”

Dr. Saraswat, who is also the DRDO Director-General, called Sunday's mission “a fantastic success.” The interceptor boasted new technologies such as directional warhead, fibre-optic gyroscopes and a radio-frequency seeker that guided the interceptor to attack the incoming “enemy missile” at an altitude of 16 km above the Bay of Bengal.

The incoming missile, a modified Prithvi, blasted off at 9.32 a.m. from the launch complex III of the Integrated Test Range at Chandipur, Orissa. It mimicked the trajectory of a ballistic missile with a 600-km range. In no time, radars at different locations swung into action, tracking the “enemy” missile, constructing its trajectory and passing on the information in real time to the Mission Control Centre (MCC) to launch the interceptor, an Advanced Air Defence (AAD) missile. It had a directional warhead to go so close to the adversarial missile before exploding to inflict the maximum damage on it. The interceptor had state-of-the-art guidance systems to achieve a manoeuvrable trajectory.

The MCC identified the attacker as a ballistic missile and assigned it to the Launch Control Centre (LCC) on Wheeler Island. After making quick calculations, the LCC launched the interceptor “right on the dot at the required instant,” Dr. Saraswat said. The AAD soared into the sky at 9.37 a.m. from Wheeler Island to take care of the “threat.”

The interceptor manoeuvred in the direction of the target, which was called the “least energy manoeuvre,” he said. The interceptor raced into the sky at 4.5 Mach. In the terminal phase of the attacker's flight, as it was hurtling towards the earth, the interceptor's radio frequency seeker “acquired the target, rolled the interceptor in the right direction and, when it was a few metres from the target, gave the command to the directional warhead to explode,” Dr. Saraswat explained.

The warhead detonated, blasting the attacker to pieces. The ground-based radars and the sensors on board the targeted missile tracked the debris, which rained down over the Bay of Bengal, “confirming a very good kill,” the DRDO Director-General said. “Based on the data from the target, a 100 per cent kill was achieved.” The radars were located at Konark and Kendrapara, near Paradip, in Orissa.

V.L.N. Rao, Programme Director; Avinash Chander, Director, Advanced Systems Laboratory, DRDO, Hyderabad; K. Sekhar, Chief Controller (Missile Systems and Low Intensity Conflict), DRDO; and S.P. Dash, Director, ITR, were present on Wheeler Island. Defence Minister A.K. Antony congratulated the DRDO missile technologists on the successful demonstration of the ballistic missile defence system.

Dr. Saraswat said the next test would be done later this year to intercept a 2000-km-range incoming missile at an altitude of 150 km. India's plans for putting in place the first phase of the two-layered ballistic missile defence shield by 2012 and the second phase by 2016 were on course. This would be done by integrating it with the Air Defence System of the Indian Air Force and the Army.

Only the U.S., Russia, France, Israel and India have the capability to put in place a ballistic missile defence shield. China is still developing it. It conducted an anti-ballistic missile test on January 11, 2010. The target missile, launched from Xichang, was intercepted and destroyed at an altitude of 700 km by a KT-2 variant missile that took off from near Korla in Xinjiang province.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby Christopher Sidor » 07 Mar 2011 12:05

Gaur wrote:
Christopher Sidor wrote:good work. one more step closer to field a rudimentary BMD shield. I certainly hope that this project does not go under long gestation period.

What do you find "rudimentary" about it? Just curious.


The Hindu is reporting that this Interceptor was used against a missile with a range of 600 kms and the interception was done in the terminal phase and not boost phase.
....
The interceptor boasted new technologies such as directional warhead, fibre-optic gyroscopes and a radio-frequency seeker that guided the interceptor to attack the incoming “enemy missile” at an altitude of 16 km above the Bay of Bengal
....
The incoming missile, a modified Prithvi, blasted off at 9.32 a.m. from the launch complex III of the Integrated Test Range at Chandipur, Orissa. It mimicked the trajectory of a ballistic missile with a 600-km range.
....
In the terminal phase of the attacker's flight, as it was hurtling towards the earth, the interceptor's radio frequency seeker “acquired the target, rolled the interceptor in the right direction and, when it was a few metres from the target, gave the command to the directional warhead to explode,”


For practical purpose currently we need to tackle Chinese missiles with ranges of 1500-2500 kms. Missiles which are placed in the heartland of China. Current BMD capability which was demonstrated will not be able to target the boost phase of these missiles. The phase when the missile is most vulnerable as its speed is slow and provides a juicy target to the IR sensors.
Also with this interceptor we can protect our east, north-eastern and north-western civilian regions from the missiles as they are launched from Tibet and to a certain degree from Xianjing.
But to truly have a BMD capability which will shoot down 60% of incoming missiles we will have to migrate to next level, i.e. lasers. Right now we will make the Chinese pause and think and force them to take counter measures against Indian BMD capability. But we will not be able to stop a majority or all of the incoming Chinese missiles.
That is why I said Rudimentary. Essential but still rudimentary.

Just as China is deploying missiles with the range of 2500-1500 kms against India right now, as the decade progresses, we will see Chinese use their SLBM against us also. Or use the Chinese north-eastern region to target missiles against India. Let us hope that in the next 2-3 years we begin to deploy this capability. As we gradually deploy our BMD capability, China might migrate to using longer range missiles or SLBMs against India.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby Narad » 07 Mar 2011 13:03



I Look forward to some analysis from gurus on technical part (+3:45 sec) :D
Last edited by Narad on 07 Mar 2011 13:07, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby sum » 07 Mar 2011 13:05

The Hindu is reporting that this Interceptor was used against a missile with a range of 600 kms and the interception was done in the terminal phase and not boost phase.

^^ Newsreports mentioned that the next test will be against 2000 km range missile after the 600 km was successfully done..

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby Singha » 07 Mar 2011 13:09

>> Dr. Saraswat said the next test would be done later this year to intercept a 2000-km-range incoming missile at an altitude of 150 km

this cannot be the PAD. it will be the AD-1 of of the ad1 and ad2 pair they talked of earlier. this weapon if it works could target ghauri/shaheen class missiles.

I am expecting something the size of Shaurya for this, with reused components perhaps but new seeker and algorithms. this will also be our ASAT weapon one would expect.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby nrshah » 07 Mar 2011 13:10

Singha wrote:>> Dr. Saraswat said the next test would be done later this year to intercept a 2000-km-range incoming missile at an altitude of 150 km

this cannot be the PAD. it will be the AD-1 of of the ad1 and ad2 pair they talked of earlier. this weapon if it works could target ghauri/shaheen class missiles.

I am expecting something the size of Shaurya for this, with reused components perhaps but new seeker and algorithms.


It will be pdv as per some news reports. Not a part of AD pair as they are for 5500Km class...

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby Singha » 07 Mar 2011 13:13

found it from mid-2010:

http://indiatoday.intoday.in/site/Story ... chief.html

The Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) would be testing a new missile interceptor in Balasore by the end of this month, DRDO chief Dr VK Saraswat told India Today. "We will have a test in end June or early July and are calling this new missile the PDV and it will have two solid stages," Dr Saraswat said. He revealed that the DRDO would begin ground-testing of AD-1 next year, a missile meant to shoot down intercontinental ballistic missiles (ICBMs).
............................
The PDV is a modified version of stage 1 missile interceptors which can shoot down intermediate range ballistic missiles (IRBMs) of upto 2,000 km range like Pakistan's Ghauri and Shaheen missiles. "The PDV will be the mainstay of the defence shield," Dr Saraswat said.

DRDO officials say this system will be the backbone of the missile defence shield until Phase 2 missiles are fully deployed. Phase 1 of the system is to be completed and ready for induction by next year.

Dr Saraswat said that the AD-1 and AD-2, extended range missiles meant to shoot down ICBMs, were on the drawing board and would be fielded by around 2012 under Phase 2 of the missile shield. "Ground testing of the AD-1 will begin next year and the AD-1 missile will be test-fired in 2012," Saraswat said. These would be capable of shooting down missiles which have ranges greater than 5,000 km. Phase 2 is far more challenging because it calls for detecting ICBMs hurtling at twice the speeds of intermediate range missiles. It not only requires bigger interceptor missiles flying at hypersonic speeds of between six and seven times the speed of sound (present missile interceptor speeds are between Mach 4 and Mach 5) but also radars to detect incoming ICBMs at ranges of over 1,500 km as opposed to the current detection ranges of over 600 km

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby dinesha » 07 Mar 2011 14:33

neerajb wrote:When did you buy it? It seems they have jacked up the prices, now showing 1150 INR.
Cheers....
Sept 2010 @ 626/- to be exact

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby kit » 07 Mar 2011 17:10

Singha wrote:found it from mid-2010:

http://indiatoday.intoday.in/site/Story ... chief.html

The Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) would be testing a new missile interceptor in Balasore by the end of this month, DRDO chief Dr VK Saraswat told India Today. "We will have a test in end June or early July and are calling this new missile the PDV and it will have two solid stages," Dr Saraswat said. He revealed that the DRDO would begin ground-testing of AD-1 next year, a missile meant to shoot down intercontinental ballistic missiles (ICBMs).
............................
The PDV is a modified version of stage 1 missile interceptors which can shoot down intermediate range ballistic missiles (IRBMs) of upto 2,000 km range like Pakistan's Ghauri and Shaheen missiles. "The PDV will be the mainstay of the defence shield," Dr Saraswat said.

DRDO officials say this system will be the backbone of the missile defence shield until Phase 2 missiles are fully deployed. Phase 1 of the system is to be completed and ready for induction by next year.

Dr Saraswat said that the AD-1 and AD-2, extended range missiles meant to shoot down ICBMs, were on the drawing board and would be fielded by around 2012 under Phase 2 of the missile shield. "Ground testing of the AD-1 will begin next year and the AD-1 missile will be test-fired in 2012," Saraswat said. These would be capable of shooting down missiles which have ranges greater than 5,000 km. Phase 2 is far more challenging because it calls for detecting ICBMs hurtling at twice the speeds of intermediate range missiles. It not only requires bigger interceptor missiles flying at hypersonic speeds of between six and seven times the speed of sound (present missile interceptor speeds are between Mach 4 and Mach 5) but also radars to detect incoming ICBMs at ranges of over 1,500 km as opposed to the current detection ranges of over 600 km


The currently deployed modified Greenpine with India has a range over 1500 km ?

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby nrshah » 07 Mar 2011 17:54

If my memory does not fail me, Greenpine has a range of around 600Kms which was later enhanced to 800 kms in our LRTR which will be enhanced to 1500 km by end of 2011 as per the report...

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby Nihat » 07 Mar 2011 18:25

nrshah wrote:If my memory does not fail me, Greenpine has a range of around 600Kms which was later enhanced to 800 kms in our LRTR which will be enhanced to 1500 km by end of 2011 as per the report...


That's right and hopefully this 1500Km range will be more than enough to cover the entire TSP and detect BM launches in boost phase itself. A BMD deployed in any capacity will make TSP think long and hard before going nuclear.

I wonder though, whatwill be the deployment pattern of the BMD, will it be city / target specific for Eg. - a range of Missiles in place to protect Mumbai or Delhi. Or it'll be a theatre centric deployment with the entire India divided like a grid map and a certain no. of missiles deployed to protect each grid with their individual tracking systems and lauch mechanism to ensure that one malfunction effects only a small part of the system.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby SaiK » 07 Mar 2011 21:31

For longer range interception either in the boost phase or mid course, it would be ideal to have the interceptor carry dual (/ multi) anti-missile warhead so that it could be very reassuring on two counts: 1. As a backup striker just in case the initial one being a dummy, and 2. ready to strike say, if there is a MIRV launch by the enemy. Now, we could come up with multiple strike warheads depending on which type of missile we need to counter. That would be long way to go indeed.

Congrats drdo!

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby Austin » 09 Mar 2011 23:01

Agni-V next
T.S. Subramanian

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby Hiten » 09 Mar 2011 23:07

wasn't there tests of K-15, Dhanush & Prithvi-2 scheduled for today? had added a reminder stating so. Entered the wrong date?

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby VinodTK » 10 Mar 2011 07:40

Group believes India will perform anti-satellite test
“A missile defense program can very easily be used as a technology demonstartor program for an ASAT capability,” said Victoria Samson, director of SWF’s Washington office.

The United States demonstrated this in 2008 when they fired a modified SM-3 missile from a Navy ship and destroyed a military satellite named USA 193 in orbit.

Space security is a growing interest in India.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby shiv » 10 Mar 2011 08:17

VinodTK wrote:Group believes India will perform anti-satellite test
“A missile defense program can very easily be used as a technology demonstartor program for an ASAT capability,” said Victoria Samson, director of SWF’s Washington office.

The United States demonstrated this in 2008 when they fired a modified SM-3 missile from a Navy ship and destroyed a military satellite named USA 193 in orbit.

Space security is a growing interest in India.


Despite what these "experts" say I bet my left testimonial that India will not do anything so stupid as to fill up space with debris.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby ramana » 10 Mar 2011 08:18

I don't know why this bogey is being raised. India doesn't need to prove it can shoot its own satellite. Also all its sats are in stable orbits so cant do the US stunt. PRC did that stunt to warn those who needed it that they have precision interception capability.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby NRao » 10 Mar 2011 09:04

Mar 8, 2011 :: India's ABM test: proven ASAT capability or a paper tiger?

I am getting the distinct feeling that the web is producing many who want Oscar nominations.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby chackojoseph » 10 Mar 2011 09:18

An exo tests raises debries. IMO, a leo sat can be blown up.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby kit » 10 Mar 2011 12:53

Why not have a dysfunctional Indian satellite change its trajectory towards earth and then blow it up .. and save the world :mrgreen: Nobody is going to complain :D

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby jamwal » 10 Mar 2011 12:57

It'll be a lot more like intercepting a bus in a free fall rather than any useful demonstration of anti-satellite or anti-missile capability.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby disha » 10 Mar 2011 12:59

NRao wrote:Mar 8, 2011 :: India's ABM test: proven ASAT capability or a paper tiger?

I am getting the distinct feeling that the web is producing many who want Oscar nominations.


Raise bogey, increase pressure - call GOI napunsak to force GOI to show its testimonials and then castigate them for not being a mature power. And all ye jingoes, why shiver in your dhotis? [this is for lurking dhoti-shivering yindoos].

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby kit » 10 Mar 2011 13:01

it would be more challenging to hit a run away satellite than hit one in stable orbit , to say the least (and of course saving the world also important you know :mrgreen: .. unless DRDO manages to botch it up ) ... oh by the i think there wont be any pressure not to blow up a errant satellite :D
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby disha » 10 Mar 2011 13:05

Ramana Sir, PRC test does not prove anything. It is definitely *not* precision test. Precision test will be tracking a partially determinate object in real time and shooting it down. Like shooting a bullet with bullet, not a falling bird with bullet.

PRC test does not hold a candle to the AAD/PAD tests.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby pralay » 10 Mar 2011 13:20

Akash Mark-II version will be ready by 2012 : DRDO
DRDO with its recent success in getting orders worth Rs 23,300-crore from Indian air force and Indian army for its Akash SAM ,is currently working on a improved Mark-II version of the surface to air missile and will have its first flight test by end of 2012 .

Akash Mark-II version will carry Minor critical improvement over Mark-1 variant and will not be a completely new missile , DRDO for this reason has not asked for any additional funding from the center for this improvement . New MK-2 will have better accuracy and will also be little faster then the current variant.

Mark-2 variant will also will have faster reaction time to cover the threat and will have an minor extended range to the missile which will be 10 to 12 km improvement over the Mark-1 variant . Mark-2 variant will be replacing old soviet union acquired SA-3 GOA (Pechora) SAM systems.

India’s plans to fortify North Eastern border area with China by installing Akash MK-1 close to the border there , DRDO expects Air force and Army will order more of Akash MK-1 and MK-2 SAM batteries to cover lot of non covered area in North east and western Borders .

DRDO still has not proposed any longer range variant of SAM yet , but Barak-8 which DRDO is developing jointly with Israelis for the Indian Navy might have a Land based variant to cover this requirement in future .

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby Cybaru » 10 Mar 2011 18:57

12KMS is minor for a 27KM ranged missile ???? That's almost 50% range of the current missile. 37-40Km for Akash II will be pretty serious change and a welcome addition.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby ramana » 10 Mar 2011 20:18

disha wrote:Ramana Sir, PRC test does not prove anything. It is definitely *not* precision test. Precision test will be tracking a partially determinate object in real time and shooting it down. Like shooting a bullet with bullet, not a falling bird with bullet.

PRC test does not hold a candle to the AAD/PAD tests.



Precisely.

India does not have to show any ASAT capability for it has shown a much harder capability.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby abhik » 10 Mar 2011 20:34

^^^
But to be frank 27 Km for a 700+ Kg ramjet missile was on the lower side.


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