Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby sivab » 03 Jun 2011 20:15

http://livefist.blogspot.com/2011/06/in ... r-end.html

Minister Orders, India's Agni-V To Fly Before Year End

Indian Defence Minister AK Antony today said the country must have a ballistic missile with 5,000-km range. After presenting the DRDO awards today, Antony called upon the organisation to quickly deliver the Agni-V missile.

"DRDO must demonstrate its capability to reach the range of 5,000-km at the earliest. The interceptor missile development programme has taken India to an elite club of nations that possess the capability to demonstrate and deploy missile defence. DRDO should now work towards developing a credible ballistic missile defence for our country," Antony said.

Speaking to reporters later, DRDO chief Vijay Kumar Saraswat said that the Agni-V test launch will take place before the end of this year.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby Singha » 03 Jun 2011 20:18

AK sir must be privy to strategic news and plans we do not know about, hence this unusual and frank order.

most probably someone like taiwan or japan has picked up news of lizard-pak plans through their sources and tipped us off.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby Shrinivasan » 03 Jun 2011 21:11

Singha wrote:AK sir must be privy to strategic news and plans we do not know about, hence this unusual and frank order.

What DRDO was looking for was clear direction from the political class for Agni V, they got more than they bargained for, A clear order to do it this year, which is less than 6 month. this shows 2 things
1) DRDO-BDL are in advanced stages of development of the missile
2) Antony has confidence in Agni-V's development plans/roadmap

Great news, but there is more. In all this Hulla-Bulla about the V, we are missing a news about the IIIs.
India has also inducted its latest 3,000-km Agni-III missile into the armed forces and has begun serialised production of the weapon system.

Agni-III, Saraswat pointed out, is an inducted missile. "So there is no confusion whether or when it will be inducted. Agni-III is an inducted missile. It has completed its complete development and is under production," he added.

This is a "Lungi Dance" moment!!!

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby Gagan » 04 Jun 2011 00:14

Huge lungi dance moment !!!

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby Vipul » 04 Jun 2011 05:43

Finally, India to test its own ICBM Agni-V in December.

With armed forces already inducting the two-stage 3,500-km Agni-III missile, India is now eyeing its most ambitious strategic missile, the Agni V.NEW DELHI: India finally plans to test its most ambitious strategic missile Agni-V, with near ICBM (intercontinental ballistic missile) capabilities, this December after some delay.

With high road mobility, fast-reaction ability and a strike range over 5,000 km, Agni-V would even bring China's northernmost regions within its nuclear strike envelope if it is ever required.

The armed forces are already inducting the two-stage 3,500-km Agni-III after completion of its developmental and pre-induction trials last year, having earlier operationalised the Pakistan-specific Agni-I (700-km) and Agni-II (over 2,000-km) missiles.

The Agni-V, in turn, is meant to add some much-needed credible deterrence muscle against China, which has a massive nuclear arsenal with missiles like the 11,200-km Dong Feng-31A capable of hitting any Indian city.

For one, it will be quite easy to store and swiftly transport the 17.5-metre tall Agni-V by road since it's a canister-launch missile system, unlike the earlier Agni missiles. If fired from the North-East, for instance, it would be able to hit China's northernmost city of Habin.

For another, Agni-V would also carry MIRV (multiple independently targetable re-entry vehicles) payloads being concurrently developed. A single MIRVed missile can deliver multiple warheads at different targets even if they are separated by long distances.

"We have tested the three (solid-propellant composite rocket motor) stages of Agni-V independently...all ground tests are now over. The integration process is now in progress. We want to test the missile in December, not let it spill over to 2012," DRDO chief V K Saraswat told TOI on Friday.

This came after defence minister A K Antony, addressing the annual DRDO awards ceremony, asked defence scientists to "demonstrate" the 5,000-km missile's capability "at the earliest".

With a "launch mass" of around 50 tonne and a development cost of over Rs 2,500 crore, Agni-V will incorporate advanced technologies involving ring laser gyroscope and accelerator for navigation and guidance. It takes its first stage from Agni-III, with a modified second stage and a miniaturized third stage to ensure it can fly to distances beyond 5,000 km.

An ICBM, incidentally, usually denotes a missile capable of hitting targets over 5,500 km away, and has largely been the preserve of the Big-5 countries till now.

DRDO is also gearing up for another test of its two-tier BMD (ballistic missile defence) system, designed to track and destroy hostile missiles both inside (endo) and outside (exo) the earth's atmosphere, around this August with a new interceptor missile called PDV to add to the existing ones.

Antony, on his part, said, "The interceptor missile development programme has taken India into an elite club of nations that possess the capability to demonstrate and deploy missile defence. DRDO should now also work towards developing a credible BMD for our country."

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby Rakesh » 04 Jun 2011 06:46

^^^ What does PDV stand for?

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby SaiK » 04 Jun 2011 06:55

Prithvi Developed Version /janes
http://articles.janes.com/articles/Jane ... India.html
A third project, known as PDV (Prithvi Developed Version), has also been reported, and was described as being a two stage solid propellant missile capable of intercepting Intermediate-Range Ballistic Missiles (IRBM) with ranges up to 1,500 to 2,500 km. It is possible that PAD or PDV might be considered as a future Anti-Satellite weapon (ASAT) system, although an Agni variant has also been mentioned by DRDO.


but DNA is out of sequence:, says it as Defense Vehicle.

thakur saab says, it has kill vehicle,, so.. Destroy Vehicle?

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby Singha » 04 Jun 2011 07:29

naming a 2 stage solid fuel missile after prithvi makes no sense.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby Shrinivasan » 04 Jun 2011 11:02

cheenum wrote:
Singha wrote:AK sir must be privy to strategic news and plans we do not know about, hence this unusual and frank order.

What DRDO was looking for was clear direction from the political class for Agni V, they got more than they bargained for, A clear order to do it this year, which is less than 6 month. this shows 2 things
1) DRDO-BDL are in advanced stages of development of the missile
2) Antony has confidence in Agni-V's development plans/roadmap

Confirming my theory on AgniV, DRDO chief V K Saraswat told TOI on Friday...
"We have tested the three (solid-propellant composite rocket motor) stages of Agni-V independently...all ground tests are now over. The integration process is now in progress. We want to test the missile in December, not let it spill over to 2012,"
This means, the missile is ALMOST ready!!!
BRAdmins, we urgently need a lungi dance smilie!!!

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby Shrinivasan » 04 Jun 2011 11:06

I have been wanting to ask this for a long time..."What happened to Agni II Prime/Plus"?"
This was Tessy Moll's baby, meant to be cannisterized, road mobile and with a 2.5K range, bridge the gap between AII and AIII. AII-P would give tremendous operational flexibility and it being cannisterized is a huge advantage. It was also meant to test some technologies which were to be incorporated into AV. After AII-P in Dec 2010, no news of this. :(

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby SaiK » 04 Jun 2011 21:26

Singha wrote:naming a 2 stage solid fuel missile after prithvi makes no sense.



perhaps the codename is based on:-

The DRDO was also integrating “a unique directional warhead” developed by its laboratories into the interceptor. “It is called P-charge [projectile charge] warhead which can penetrate thick steel and cause damage with a high hit [repeat hit] density. That means the number of holes you create per unit area is very high,” he explained.


LINK

?

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby Ravi Karumanchiri » 04 Jun 2011 23:33

A lot has been written about the ranges and classes of Indian missiles built under the IGMDP, and I will not rehash all that in this post.

However, one item of news was mentioned about two years ago, and then not again since, so I was wondering about it, because it has direct relevance to the ranges claimed for all of these missiles. Drawing from the Wikipedia page for the Agni...

In May 2008 Indian scientists announced they had developed and patented a path-breaking technology that increases the range of missiles and satellite launch vehicles by at least 40%.[11] The enhanced range is made possible by adding a special-purpose coating of chromium based material to a rocket's blunt nose cone. The material acts as a reactive-ablative coating that forms a thin low density gaseous layer at the tip of the rocket as it approaches hypersonic speeds; this super-heated gas layer reduces drag by 47% (at mach 7-8), thereby allowing range enhancements at least 40%.[12][13] It has been announced that this technology will be incorporated in future Agni deployments after having undergone ranging and calibration tests.

[11] Indigenous technology to increase range of Indian missiles by a third

[12] Indian-developed technology to boost range of missiles and protect re-entry vehicles

[13] New tech to boost missile range by 40%


QUESTION 1: Does this mean that the stated ranges for all of the higher-speed IGMDP missiles is actually 40% greater than initially claimed?

QUESTION 2: From what I understand (and please someone, correct me if I'm wrong), if a missile is capable of leaving the atmosphere, then it should not take very much more fuel for it to reach the very farthest ends of the earth. Is it not just a matter of trajectory and conservation of momentum in a vacuum?

QUESTION 3: Given that India has placed many satellites into various orbits, including very high orbits, and also since India has even orbited the moon; is it not now a matter of conventional wisdom that claims of restricted ranges on IGMDP missiles are a little ridiculous?

I realize that the Indian establishment is keen not to raise the hackles of the Americans by 'coming out' about the potential for IGMDP missiles to strike anywhere on earth, but must we on BRF play along as well?

Don't get me wrong, I think the Agni V is a good idea, and I also think the Arihant should have missiles that would permit a second strike originating from any ocean on the planet -- but what I don't understand is the coyness among Rakshaks regarding these matters. I mean, who are we kidding? Ourselves?

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby babbupandey » 05 Jun 2011 00:54

Ravi Karumanchiri wrote:QUESTION 1: Does this mean that the stated ranges for all of the higher-speed IGMDP missiles is actually 40% greater than initially claimed?

QUESTION 2: From what I understand (and please someone, correct me if I'm wrong), if a missile is capable of leaving the atmosphere, then it should not take very much more fuel for it to reach the very farthest ends of the earth. Is it not just a matter of trajectory and conservation of momentum in a vacuum?

QUESTION 3: Given that India has placed many satellites into various orbits, including very high orbits, and also since India has even orbited the moon; is it not now a matter of conventional wisdom that claims of restricted ranges on IGMDP missiles are a little ridiculous?


Although I am not an expert on this but from whatever I have learnt on this forum and otherwise, here are my responses, and I could be 100% wrong in all of these, so take it with a BIG pinch of salt :)

1. I have not come across any article or news piece which mentions the use of this technology for current missiles. So, for all practicals purposes, I would stick with the official figures. May be the technology has not matured enough, maybe it is not so easy to simply "coat" the missile with chromium.

2. No, it is far far far more complex than that. If it were that simple then every country would have had ICBM. This question is fit to be asked in newbie thread (no offence).

3. The only common factor PSLV/GSLV and missile is that they *look* similar and launch in similar manner. An american author was subject of BRF ridicule way back in 2004 when he suggested that India should not be allowed to have cryogenic technology as they will use it to develop ICBM. Think of it this way, a satellite launcher never comes back once it leaves the atmosphere, whereas a missile has to come back. Not only that, it also has to avoid detection, change its path to align itself to target and also avoid interception.

Hope this helps.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby Anujan » 05 Jun 2011 01:02

^^^
Also storage, transportation and filling of cryogenic fuels requires a massive ground support infrastructure. The kind of things that Satish Dhawan Space Centre would have, but not battlefieds.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby chackojoseph » 05 Jun 2011 09:24

HELINA missile's two-way RF command-video data link realised

Edited by Our BRF jingo akimalik. All thanks to him :D

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby svinayak » 05 Jun 2011 10:13

Singha wrote:AK sir must be privy to strategic news and plans we do not know about, hence this unusual and frank order.

most probably someone like taiwan or japan has picked up news of lizard-pak plans through their sources and tipped us off.

read the book the by H Kissinger. 'On China,' by Henry Kissinger. This is the cue to what China will do this decade. Its options will narrow this decade and will try to create alliance to counter the containment

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby SaiK » 05 Jun 2011 10:21

ECCM also tested meaning Helina fired at target in a simulated situation, where helina system met with counter measure jamming? Kinda very brief with a one liner there.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby Shrinivasan » 06 Jun 2011 01:53

How many Helina's will an ALH / LCH carry?

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby nachiket » 06 Jun 2011 02:42

cheenum wrote:How many Helina's will an ALH / LCH carry?

Since each launcher consists of 2 missiles, they can theoretically carry 8 in a Tank Buster config. and 4 HELINA + 2 Rocket pods in regular config.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby Shrinivasan » 06 Jun 2011 12:33

nachiket wrote:Since each launcher consists of 2 missiles, they can theoretically carry 8 in a Tank Buster config. and 4 HELINA + 2 Rocket pods in regular config.

Isn't this very less, considering the fact that we have a small fleet of attack helos? it would be great if we create a Helina pod like a rocket pod which can be carried by our helos and ground attack aircrafts.
Imagine a Mig-27 or a Jaguar swooping down and firing 32 Helinas at an advancing Tank column!!!

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby Singha » 06 Jun 2011 12:56

that would be a brimstone mod of hellfire thing. very desirable and hopefully on the radar map - tripe tubes of helina would mean Jag/Tejas/M2k/Mig29 could carry 12. and a MKI atleast 18 :)

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby Pratyush » 06 Jun 2011 13:36

Considering that the LCH derives its liniage from the ALH. it should be capable of carrying simmilar kind of loads compared to the ALH. Even if the additional armour takes up half the cargoo capability as available with the ALH. It should still have sufficient capability to carry 16 Helina.

The weight ought to be as follows.

Helina weight (Musharrafstimate ) = 60 Kgs
so for 16 missiles 16* 60 = 960 Kgs.

This ought to be within the design limit for the LCH.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby Shrinivasan » 06 Jun 2011 15:12

Pratyush wrote:Considering that the LCH derives its liniage from the ALH. it should be capable of carrying simmilar kind of loads compared to the ALH. Even if the additional armour takes up half the cargoo capability as available with the ALH. It should still have sufficient capability to carry 16 Helina.

16 Helina showered with love on a Paki Armoured column would be sweet. Imagine what joy a flight of LCH & Druv WSI can spread among an Armoured Brigade charging down Cholistan Desert...

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby sankum » 06 Jun 2011 15:42

A two helina launcher with cooling system for seeker weighs 170Kg. Therefore only 8 helinas in four launcher will be carried which will weigh 4*170=680Kg.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby prabhug » 06 Jun 2011 15:43

Hi
Any videos of the latest tests revealed.This is definitely a killer in urban warfare

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby Pratyush » 06 Jun 2011 17:21

sankum wrote:A two helina launcher with cooling system for seeker weighs 170Kg.
Therefore only 8 helinas in four launcher will be carried which will
weigh 4*170=680Kg.


Is the cooling requirement present for the standard NAG as well. As I understand the HELINA wll use the seeker amd the warhead from the standard NAG.

If not then some thing similar to the PARS 3 launcher of the Tiger can be designed for the HELINA quad packing it. In that case the pack along with the missiles should not weigh more then 250 Kgs each. to approx 1000 kgs.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby chackojoseph » 09 Jun 2011 09:53


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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby shijo » 09 Jun 2011 10:13

wht is the need for repeated testing of prithvi, when agni series is not undergoing same levels of trials.....
parayu chackochi...

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby chackojoseph » 09 Jun 2011 10:26

shijo wrote:wht is the need for repeated testing of prithvi, when agni series is not undergoing same levels of trials.....
parayu chackochi...


User is testing this in multiple modes with production lot. They are testing the high's, lows of the missile based on usage and strategy. This is a tactical missile. Hence, it requires tactics like salvo, low flight, maximum altitude etc. Agni is more strategic in nature and in past the tests have been simulated for the intended.
Last edited by chackojoseph on 09 Jun 2011 10:28, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby Will » 09 Jun 2011 10:27

shijo wrote:wht is the need for repeated testing of prithvi, when agni series is not undergoing same levels of trials.....
parayu chackochi...


shijo wrote:wht is the need for repeated testing of prithvi, when agni series is not undergoing same levels of trials.....
parayu chackochi...



You can never be sure its the prithvi :D. They have been reports of newer missiles being tested under the guise of a prithvi test even before . The K-15 being a prime example. Suddenly info came out that it had been test fired 7-8 times without even a wiff of the same before.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby Virupaksha » 09 Jun 2011 10:55

because of an agreement with Pakistan, we have to notify them whenever a ballistic (not cruise) missile is tested and vice versa, to avoid unforeseen nuclear escalations. So the launch of the missile is never kept a secret.

Without that agreement , I doubt whether they would have made public whether a missile was launched.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby Will » 09 Jun 2011 11:16

ravi_ku wrote:because of an agreement with Pakistan, we have to notify them whenever a ballistic (not cruise) missile is tested and vice versa, to avoid unforeseen nuclear escalations. So the launch of the missile is never kept a secret.

Without that agreement , I doubt whether they would have made public whether a missile was launched.


Yes but you just have to inform them that a missile is being tested and vice versa but not whether it is a new type or the range of the missile.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby chackojoseph » 09 Jun 2011 12:33



I have updated the missile accuracy part.

Other day, I had this thought. IN Ships are capable of detecting ballistic missiles. During IGMDP begening, the IN ships couldn't. Hopefully AAD or PAD is ultimately integrated into IN ships in future.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby SaiK » 09 Jun 2011 17:46

cool.. for prithvi, we need a salvo of 3 to 8 launches in a timespan. [thinking ahead about multiple enemy formations, multiple discrete targets etc].. AoA: what we could call it operation varun!

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby John » 09 Jun 2011 19:48

chackojoseph wrote:


I have updated the missile accuracy part.

Other day, I had this thought. IN Ships are capable of detecting ballistic missiles. During IGMDP begening, the IN ships couldn't. Hopefully AAD or PAD is ultimately integrated into IN ships in future.

Very limited capability not enough to track them at long ranges let alone provide missile guidance for an interceptor, down the line P-15A could provide us limited ABM capability with Barak-8.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby Shrinivasan » 09 Jun 2011 20:06



Some comments Chacko ji.
"India today successfully test-fired indigenously built surface-to-surface strategic Prithvi-II missile" should be "Today India successfully test-fired indigenously built surface-to-surface strategic missile Prithvi-II", too many adjectives muddles the opening sentence.

The liquid propelled, nine meter long, twin-engined nuclear capable Prithvi-II missile can hit a target at a range of 350 km and can carry warhead up to 500 kg.

Remove "one meter diameter", it is sort of becoming Passe...
"..and can carry warhead up to 500 kg." should be modified as "and can carry a warhead of (up to) 500 kg."

All the Radars, Electro optical systems located along the coast have tracked and monitored the Missile throughout the flight path. shoudl be
All Radars and Electro optical systems located along the coast were tracking and monitoring the Missile throughout its flight.

the warship sentence is redundant...
"The missile is already a part of the Indian armed forces under the control of the Strategic Forces Command" could be
"Prithvi-II missile is already part of the Indian armed forces under the control of the Strategic Forces Command"

"and is tested from tme to time" - either explain why or don't state a sentence which is left hanging.
"It is equipped with state-of-the-art guidance system..." should be "It is equipped with a state-of-the-art guidance system" or "It is equipped with state-of-the-art guidance systems"

"and is said to hit target with very high degree of accuracy. " SHOULD BE "and hits its targets with a very high degree of accuracy (or low CEP). ". The way you have written looks like heresay and lacks conviction

"Arrangements were made to monitor all the trajectory parameters of the missile throughout the test-flight. ", this is typical Sarkari statement. It could be "All trajectory parameters of the missile were monitored throughout its flight.

"This fourth successful Prithvi-II user trials within a period of eight months." - this is just hanging in mid-air in aparagraph of its own.
"This is the fourth successful Prithvi-II user trial in an eight month period."

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby ramana » 09 Jun 2011 21:10

So you prefer active voice. I guess you are a techie!

Most arts majors are taught passive voice and hence the long winded passages in Indian media reports.

Another suggestion is to use a pyramid form. The top third should be the main idea and the bottom two-third the supporting details and reinforce the message by repetion at the end.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby chackojoseph » 09 Jun 2011 21:33

I think, we can discuss this over email. Let us not use the threads for other purposes.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby Shrinivasan » 09 Jun 2011 22:21

chackojoseph wrote:I think, we can discuss this over email. Let us not use the threads for other purposes.
Sure Sir, drop me an email. Keep up the GREAT work.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby Shrinivasan » 09 Jun 2011 22:28

ramana wrote:So you prefer active voice. I guess you are a techie!

Most arts majors are taught passive voice and hence the long winded passages in Indian media reports.

Another suggestion is to use a pyramid form. The top third should be the main idea and the bottom two-third the supporting details and reinforce the message by repetion at the end.

great idea... spell check, re-reading / proofing also helps. Extensive reading of other good reporters would definitely help.


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