Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

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Singha
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby Singha » 14 Nov 2011 10:26

it seems to take BDL and BEL around 1.5-2.5 yrs from getting a confirmed order to setup the production line and start delivering the product. is this the norm worldwide in shifting from final prototype stage to mass production or we take longer?

I recall around nov 2010, the second akash order was confirmed. the first was probably in late 2009.

no word on how many have been delivered yet?

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby Kersi D » 14 Nov 2011 10:37

Singha wrote:>>This time it will carry a warhead weighing 800 kg instead of the normal 1,000 kg. “We are aiming to go for range of 3,000 km this time,

thats a solid data point people can use to x-check against the predicted ranges from rocket simulator.


So with a 500 kg payload the range may go upto say 3500 km ?

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby koti » 14 Nov 2011 10:59

PratikDas wrote:Big news on the BR home page:
DNA: India to test fire sub-sonic cruise missile Nirbhay next year
Nirbhay will be a terrain hugging, stealthy missile capable of delivering multiple warheads as per mission requirements.


What it meant was multiple type of wareheads... From Nuclear to Thermobaric. :)

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby Karan M » 14 Nov 2011 12:18

Shrinivasan wrote:
Karan M wrote:Good news.

Now, some updates on LRSAM, SRSAM, Akash Mk2 etc would be great.

Karan, we need to induct Akash MK1 first.


One has little to do with the other. These projects are being run as follow ons to a product which has already been developed, the Akash and its time some details were noted about these other projects.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby Karan M » 14 Nov 2011 12:20

Singha wrote:it seems to take BDL and BEL around 1.5-2.5 yrs from getting a confirmed order to setup the production line and start delivering the product. is this the norm worldwide in shifting from final prototype stage to mass production or we take longer?

I recall around nov 2010, the second akash order was confirmed. the first was probably in late 2009.


Typical, as we ordered SpyDers and have had to wait quite some time before we got the systems. Same for radars etc. We ordered ELTA MPRs and then had to wait 2-3 years before deliveries began. These systems, despite claims of being ready, are bespoke to some degree & no manufacturer keeps an inventory of them around. They are built to order and there is usually some customization involved.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby Nihat » 14 Nov 2011 13:12

Shrinivasan wrote:
Nihat wrote:Brilliant news about Nirbhay . it'll fill a huge operational requirement of the armed forces if inducted in big numbers.

Nirbhay test is long overdue, induction of a regiment of Nirbhay would indeed be a LUNGI DANCE moment.


Indeed it is long overdue , it should free up a vast majority of our Air force for CAS Ops. and the task of striking command HQ , Air bases, power supply plants, terror camps etc. can be outsourced to nirbhay. In case of China , nirbhay can level out their infra advantage in a matter of days.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby PratikDas » 14 Nov 2011 13:40

koti wrote:---
Nirbhay will be a terrain hugging, stealthy missile capable of delivering multiple warheads as per mission requirements.


What it meant was multiple type of wareheads... From Nuclear to Thermobaric. :)

Very true. I realised that after posting the article but didn't want to prematurely end the party, so I didn't remove the highlight. The party is over now. Thank you, koti ji :P

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby Kanson » 14 Nov 2011 19:44

Addressing a seminar on naval systems ‘Navararms 07’, Avinash Chander, the director of the Advanced Systems Laboratory, Hyderabad, said the cruise missile named Nirbhay is under development and it would fill a critical gap in the missile capabilities of all three services.

The proposed missile would be a terrain-hugging weapon, and would be capable of delivering over two-dozen warheads.


In case of Prithvi missile it has four types of warheads. What are these over two dozen warheads that was talked about?

In order to defeat diversified ground targets ranging from soft targets like personnel in open to hard targets like, runway, industrial complexes and built up areas, four different types of warheads have been designed and developed for Prithvi missile. The pre-fragmented warhead is designed to neutralise soft targets. The submunition warhead incorporating Dual Purpose Improved Conventional Bomblet is effective against AFVs in the top attack mode besides being effective against personnel up to a distance of about 10 m around the point of burst of each bomblet while the submunition incendiary warhead is effective against inflammable targets. The Runway Denial Penetrating Submunition warhead is designed and developed to neutralise hard targets like runways, administration and industrial complexes and marshalling yards.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby Kanson » 14 Nov 2011 19:45

Shrinivasan wrote:I didn't say delayed, only long overdue from an expectation POV.


Of course it is. :)

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby Shrinivasan » 14 Nov 2011 22:00

^^^ I think we will be running repeated tests on the Nirbhay to test various sub-systems (ALA the hundreds of Prithvi tests) which would then find their way into other missiles. Nirbhay is going to be a moniker for a family of missiles with different range, flight profile, munitions and above all launch platforms. We would be seeing the same versatility we see with Brahmos today.
Nirbhay being a Cruise missile does not entail warning the Pigs before a test... Wonder if they would test it from Mahajan / Chandan firing Ranges in Rajasthan?

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby ramana » 14 Nov 2011 22:19

Kanson, All those Prithvi payloads are submunitions type.

Does that mean
- The cluster bomb technology is now masterd by DRDO?
- Also is the role away from delvering unitary payload? There was mention of unitary payload and FAE version
- And does submunitions mean the accuracy issue is still there?

Bigger question does this mean the Prithvi is finally a TBM for Corps use?

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby Shrinivasan » 15 Nov 2011 03:35

ramana wrote:Bigger question does this mean the Prithvi is finally a TBM for Corps use?
Ramana, Prithvi Regiments became part of Arty Divisions many moons back, I presume the control would have been passed on from the IA HQ to Command and Corps level by now. I think there is a strategic ambiguity WRT Prithvi (which I presume is deliberate) and only in Prahaar's case has it been clearly delineated as a Theater Ballistic Missile.
For all intent and purposes the Strategic role has been taken over by the Agni missiles (here too I would place Agni II and above in strategic and Agni-I in Tactical category). Anyone has seen pictures of Prithvi TELs with formation signs other than IA HQ Command? I haven't.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby VinodTK » 15 Nov 2011 05:32

India Prepares for Trial of Advanced Agni 2 Missile
Monday, Nov. 14, 2011

India is preparing to conduct on Tuesday another trial launch of its nuclear-ready Agni 2 ballistic missile, the Press Trust of India reported (see GSN, Sept. 30).

The next-generation missile is an improvement over the original Agni 2, as the newer weapon's 1,864-mile reach exceeds that of its predecessor by nearly 50 percent.

An initial test-firing last December of the Agni 2 Prime was unsuccessful.

"We are planning to test-fire an advanced nuclear-capable Agni 2 Prime missile by November 15 from a test range in Odisha," Indian Defense Ministry officials said (Press Trust of India/The Hindu, Nov. 13).

Meanwhile, the Indian military is now fielding a new regiment of short-range BrahMos cruise missiles that can travel at supersonic speeds to precisely hit targets at a maximum distance of approximately 187 miles, the Times of India reported on Thursday (see GSN, Aug. 15). The missile has been modified in some cases to accommodate a nuclear warhead, according to previous reports (Vinod Nayanar, Times of India, Nov. 10).

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby uddu » 15 Nov 2011 06:56

^^^Please don't post anything from NTI. They are the biggest liars after Pakistanis.
Meanwhile, the Indian military is now fielding a new regiment of short-range BrahMos cruise missiles that can travel at supersonic speeds to precisely hit targets at a maximum distance of approximately 187 miles, the Times of India reported on Thursday (see GSN, Aug. 15). The missile has been modified in some cases to accommodate a nuclear warhead, according to previous reports (Vinod Nayanar, Times of India, Nov. 10)

There is no mention of any nuclear warhead for the Brahmos. I read the whole TOI article and i can only see conventional, conventional warhead etc. Even a blind person is far better than NTI.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby SSridhar » 15 Nov 2011 09:59

Shrinivasan wrote:Nirbhay test is long overdue. . ..

ASL had always maintained that Nirbhay would be tested in 2012.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby RoyG » 15 Nov 2011 10:00


sarabpal.s
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby sarabpal.s » 15 Nov 2011 10:07

AGNI tested according to PTI tweeter, not sure about which version but PTI say advance hence AII prime IMHO :)

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby rohitvats » 15 Nov 2011 10:37

Shrinivasan wrote:
ramana wrote:Bigger question does this mean the Prithvi is finally a TBM for Corps use?


Ramana, Prithvi Regiments became part of Arty Divisions many moons back, I presume the control would have been passed on from the IA HQ to Command and Corps level by now. I think there is a strategic ambiguity WRT Prithvi (which I presume is deliberate) and only in Prahaar's case has it been clearly delineated as a Theater Ballistic Missile.

For all intent and purposes the Strategic role has been taken over by the Agni missiles (here too I would place Agni II and above in strategic and Agni-I in Tactical category). Anyone has seen pictures of Prithvi TELs with formation signs other than IA HQ Command? I haven't.


I don't share this opinion about Prithvi's being TBM for the Army.

I'm yet to see a single picture of Prithvi missiles with formation sign of any of the Arty Divisions. Remember, when these missiles were inducted, these were the only weapons IA had for delivery of nukes - and we're just about now seeing the induction of Agni series of missiles. Brahmos and Prahaar missiles are going to be the Theater level missiles for the IA - I expect Prithvi's to maintain the strategic role in foreseable future - till such time more mature missiles and their warheads (size wise) become available. All the missile groups carry a very distinct formation sign and tactical numbers - different from those of arty divisions.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby Vipul » 15 Nov 2011 10:44

Agni-II Prime nuclear-capable missile successfully test-fired.

Adding teeth to its nuclear deterrence, India today successfully test-fired an advanced variant of nuclear-capable Agni-II ballistic missile with a strike range of 3,000 km from an island off Odisha coast.

"The surface-to-surface intermediate range missile was test-fired from a mobile launcher" at 0900 hours from the Integrated Test Range (ITR) at Wheeler Island, about 100 km from here, defence sources said.

Christened "Agni-II Prime", the new missile is a two-stage weapon system powered by solid propellant. It is 20 metres long and launch weight is 17 tonnes. It can carry one tonne pay-load.

A Defence Ministry spokesman said in Delhi that from now on, the missile will be called 'Agni-IV'.

Describing the test-firing as "successful", defence sources said the missile’s exact performances will be known after all data was collected and analysed from different telemetry and tracking stations as well as naval ships positioned near the terminal point.

"The indigenously developed new variant of 'Agni-II' series missile would have better accuracy and improved range", the sources said.

"While the Agni-II missile has a strike range of 2000 km and Agni-III can hit a target at a distance up to 3500 km, this new variant with a strike range of 3000 km would bridge the gap between Agni-II and Agni-III," they said.

In terms of accuracy, "some more improved features have been incorporated in it," a DRDO scientist said.

The first developmental trial of Agni-II Prime, conducted on December 10, 2010, had failed due to some technical problem in the control system. It deviated from its trajectory within seconds of its lift off from the same base and had plunged into the sea.
Last edited by Vipul on 15 Nov 2011 10:49, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby krishnan » 15 Nov 2011 10:48

Hmmmm

Wouldnt a missile which flies upto 3500 km also fly upto 3000km?

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby Singha » 15 Nov 2011 10:52

perhaps idea is A2P to replace the A2 and cover between 700km-3000km.
A1/Shourya to cover 150-700km
A3 - 3000 - 4000km
A5 - 4000+ km
Prahaar - 10-150km

eventually we might just have Shourya, A2Pmk2 and A5 in 2020 ... with a1, a2, a3 being retired.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby a_bharat » 15 Nov 2011 10:59

Agni IV successfully test fired
Y. MALLIKARJUNT. S. SUBRAMANIAN

Giving a boost to India's strategic defence preparedness, missile technologists successfully test-fired the 3,000 km plus nuclear weapons capable ballistic missile, Agni 2 prime, which has now been renamed as Agni-IV, from Wheeler Island off the Orissa coast on Tuesday.

The advanced surface-to-surface ballistic missile fired from a road mobile launcher zeroed in on to the pre-designated target in the Bay of Bengal with a high degree of accuracy after a flight duration of about 20 minutes.

Designed to increase the kill efficiency of the vehicle with a higher range performance, the missile was equipped with state-of-the-art technologies, including indigenously developed ring laser gryo and composite rocket motor.

The missile's payload was reduced from 1,000 kg to 800 kg to give the missile better range.

The two stage surface-to-surface missile is 20 meters-tall and weighs 17 tonnes.

All the radars, telemetry and electro-optical instruments tracked the entire flight of the missile until its splash down.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby krishnan » 15 Nov 2011 11:01

They are hiding something, and its not just the extra range

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby Aditya_V » 15 Nov 2011 11:02

Singha wrote:perhaps idea is A2P to replace the A2 and cover between 700km-3000km.
A1/Shourya to cover 150-700km
A3 - 3000 - 4000km
A5 - 4000+ km
Prahaar - 10-150km

eventually we might just have Shourya, A2Pmk2 and A5 in 2020 ... with a1, a2, a3 being retired.


Anther way to justify having a large inventory of missiles, oh these are old, we are going to retire only. I think its very good that we are following a Continuous Improvement process with key strategic delivery platforms.

Once or Nukes and Delivery weapons are too numerous enough that we can take out 99% of Paki and Chinese populations and still have some in reserve, the Chinese will understand that any stupid moves by their ALLY can be disastrous for them as well.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby Sid » 15 Nov 2011 11:14

-deleted -

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby sum » 15 Nov 2011 11:21

Giving a boost to India's strategic defence preparedness, missile technologists successfully test-fired the 3,000 km plus nuclear weapons capable ballistic missile, Agni 2 prime, which has now been renamed as Agni-IV, from Wheeler Island off the Orissa coast on Tuesday.

A-III - 3.0-3.5K range

A-IV- 3.0K range?

Surely there is a lot of smoke emanating from ASL and Wheeler Island....wonder what is the true story?

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby Tumba » 15 Nov 2011 11:28

sum wrote:
Giving a boost to India's strategic defence preparedness, missile technologists successfully test-fired the 3,000 km plus nuclear weapons capable ballistic missile, Agni 2 prime, which has now been renamed as Agni-IV, from Wheeler Island off the Orissa coast on Tuesday.

A-III - 3.0-3.5K range

A-IV- 3.0K range?

Surely there is a lot of smoke emanating from ASL and Wheeler Island....wonder what is the true story?



A - 2P / A - IV will replace A - II

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby koti » 15 Nov 2011 11:33

^^ why should it be replaced?

I don't even see the early Prithvi's on line for replacement.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby SSridhar » 15 Nov 2011 11:42

A-IV is supposed to have a new motor in its re-entry vehicle for better manoeuvrability and a flex nozzle in the second stage to avoid anti-ballistic missile defences.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby Tumba » 15 Nov 2011 11:45

koti wrote:^^ why should it be replaced?

I don't even see the early Prithvi's on line for replacement.



Advance version ... with overlapping ranges.. so why continue to build the less advance versions ...

after couple of more tests of Prime and V .... Agni - 2/Agni - 3 production lines will be closed and A - 2P/ A -5 will go on production...


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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby member_20296 » 15 Nov 2011 11:49

If we tried A4 for a full stated range 3k KM (earlier news) which as per today's news was completed in 20 min only that comes to roughly Mach-8, is it normal for BMs to travel at this speed ?

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby Shrinivasan » 15 Nov 2011 12:02


CJ, I fail to understand why you had to mention the failed launch of AII-P in Dec 2010? Can you shed any insignt into why this missile is to be called AIV than A-IIP

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby Shrinivasan » 15 Nov 2011 12:03

Raghuraj wrote:If we tried A4 for a full stated range 3k KM (earlier news) which as per today's news was completed in 20 min only that comes to roughly Mach-8, is it normal for BMs to travel at this speed ?

Raghu, it could me more than Mach8 as the Parabolic path would be > 3000KM which is the horizontal displacement!!!

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby Shrinivasan » 15 Nov 2011 12:05

a_bharat wrote:Agni IV successfully test fired
Y. MALLIKARJUNT. S. SUBRAMANIAN

Hindu article has many hidden gems, hope gurus can decipher them for us Jingos.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby member_20296 » 15 Nov 2011 12:16

Waiting for pics and video of our achievement, hope to see it morphing into an SLBM soon :-)

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby Singha » 15 Nov 2011 12:21

by replace we meant stopping new build of A2 and move that production line to A2P which seems to share most of components but payload and guidance section is different.....that way our lack of soviet union type capacity in churning out missiles is not a bottleneck to get the latest into service quickly.

mach8 is onlee avg speed....for its ascent phase would be a lot slower and for descent somewhat faster. probably around mach12-15 for RV.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby Singha » 15 Nov 2011 12:24

> DRDO is now planning to test launch Agni - V by the end of the year, Dr. Saraswat said.

it looks like shift of A5 date to Feb2012 was a hedge against some A2P system not performing upto the mark. with the launch successful, we are back on original schedule.

above is a direct quote from the chief himself, not a 'unnamed source'

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby chackojoseph » 15 Nov 2011 12:24

Raghuraj wrote:Waiting for pics and video of our achievement, hope to see it morphing into an SLBM soon :-)


I am downloading both. Please wait :)

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby adityadange » 15 Nov 2011 12:36

can it be the case that the weight of new ring laser gyro and/or composite motor contributed to 200kg reduced payload?


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