Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

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Craig Alpert
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby Craig Alpert » 04 Jul 2010 22:26

According to Reports from DEF-EXPO 2010 this is what goes into the MAITRI JOINT VENTURE!!!!

A comprehensive workshare proposal has been put together by DRDO and technology partner MBDA for the MAITRI short range surface-to-air missile (SR-SAM) programme. According to sources at DRDO and MBDA, both sides have identified all collaborative development areas and are are fully prepared to complete development and the first phase of testing within three years from the time the project is given formal sanction by the Cabinet. The partnership began in 2007 as part of the umbrella government-to-government agreement between India and France on missiles. Like at AeroIndia 2009, where it made its public debut, a full-scale model of the Maitri will make a reappearance at DefExpo 2010 which kicks off next week.

The ownership of the Maitri programme is envisaged as being fully Indian. With baseline technologies from the Trishul SAM programme, the Maitri programme basically envisages the sale of certain key technologies by MBDA to DRDO (seeker, endgame avionics, thrust vector control, propulsion modifications), though production will not be under a corporate joint venture on the lines of BrahMos, but would rather be carried out entirely by Bharat Dynamics Ltd (BDL), India's state-owned munitions production agency.

The Maitri is being built in two basic variants -- a ship-borne point defence and tactical air defence version for the Navy and a land-based self-propelled (wheeled and tracked) launcher-based system for the Air Force and Army.


THE KEY being DEVELOPMENT!!! not just manufacturing...

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby vic » 04 Jul 2010 23:09

Craig Alpert wrote:According to Reports from DEF-EXPO 2010 this is what goes into the MAITRI JOINT VENTURE!!!!

The ownership of the Maitri programme is envisaged as being fully Indian. With baseline technologies from the Trishul SAM programme, the Maitri programme basically envisages the sale of certain key technologies by MBDA to DRDO (seeker, endgame avionics, thrust vector control, propulsion modifications) and what is left for DRDO to do?, though production will not be under a corporate joint venture on the lines of BrahMos, but would rather be carried out entirely by Bharat Dynamics Ltd (BDL), India's state-owned munitions production agency.

THE KEY being DEVELOPMENT!!! not just manufacturing...



MBDA has been trying to sell SHORAD programme called FLAADS or some such thing to Europe-NATO for sometime. Now they have got new Murga. Havnt we learnt any lessons from screw driver R&D called Shakti engine?

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby Sid » 05 Jul 2010 00:11

vic wrote:MBDA has been trying to sell SHORAD programme called FLAADS or some such thing to Europe-NATO for sometime. Now they have got new Murga. Havnt we learnt any lessons from screw driver R&D called Shakti engine?


if pictures are to be followed (published on Aroor's blog) it is VL-MICA renamed MAITRI.

I wonder what are we co-developing here. And why it will take 3 damn years from signing of contract to test this already existing missile?

This program has striking resemblance with Brahmos, where officially it is taking 3-4 years to test an already existing air launched version of Brahmos (AKA 3M55 Yakhont) which Russian are offering in market with some Su 27 variant.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby Craig Alpert » 05 Jul 2010 00:36

^^ The key is SELLING the critical technologies.. Once SOLD, it is upto SDRE scientists to figure out the ROCKET SCIENCE Algorithms and develop the necessary software for it all... This takes time, as one has to thoroughly test their Algorithms with the Seekers, TVC and other parameters for Propulsion such as the trajectory, target desginations, and Counter Measures!

SDRE'S will learn to Crawl first, Walk next and Run later!!! Can't break the cycle...

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby Kanson » 05 Jul 2010 09:52

vic wrote:
Craig Alpert wrote:According to Reports from DEF-EXPO 2010 this is what goes into the MAITRI JOINT VENTURE!!!!

The ownership of the Maitri programme is envisaged as being fully Indian. With baseline technologies from the Trishul SAM programme, the Maitri programme basically envisages the sale of certain key technologies by MBDA to DRDO (seeker, endgame avionics, thrust vector control, propulsion modifications) and what is left for DRDO to do?, though production will not be under a corporate joint venture on the lines of BrahMos, but would rather be carried out entirely by Bharat Dynamics Ltd (BDL), India's state-owned munitions production agency.

THE KEY being DEVELOPMENT!!! not just manufacturing...



MBDA has been trying to sell SHORAD programme called FLAADS or some such thing to Europe-NATO for sometime. Now they have got new Murga. Havnt we learnt any lessons from screw driver R&D called Shakti engine?


When India was handed a choice of choosing between IAI Barak family of missiles and MBDA Aster family missiles for future Air defence systems, it was reported to have a strong constituency for the Aster family missiles with Indian Strategic planners & developers.

It is well know that, Aster minus pif-paf motor & booster is MICA, both sharing the same seeker tech and one being the variant of another. When IAI was considering various design options for its new gen Barak missile, it was claimed that adopting pif-paf tech on the lines of Aster will not be cost-effective and the same performance can be generated using traditional TVC and other controls.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby vic » 05 Jul 2010 10:01

I wonder why these so called critical tech were not purchased when deal for Sypder, SpyderMR, Barak-IN, Barak-IAF & Barak-IN-ER were signed? It is MBDA saying "let me loot Indians tooo"

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby Udayan pathak » 05 Jul 2010 12:07

Apologies if already posted.

Astra missile likely to be test fired next week

http://www.kalingatimes.com/odisha_news ... t_week.htm

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby Kanson » 05 Jul 2010 21:04

vic wrote:I wonder why these so called critical tech were not purchased when deal for Sypder, SpyderMR, Barak-IN, Barak-IAF & Barak-IN-ER were signed? It is MBDA saying "let me loot Indians tooo"

It is premature to say whether MBDA can loot Indians or the Indians allow MBDA to loot. We will get to know abt this when the deal gets an official stamp. As i could understand, it is India's intiative to go for this Maitri, so this looting whenever happens brings back needed exposure in the related field. Lets take it in the way that we getting best of both worlds...as far as the appropriation and acquisition of tech is considered we have to have faith in what they are doing....and if there is Gov support naturally it must have gone throu various boards for the approval and by the way get vetted in that process.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby John » 05 Jul 2010 22:17

vic wrote:onder why these so called critical tech were not purchased when deal for Sypder, SpyderMR, Barak-IN, Barak-IAF & Barak-IN-ER were signed? It is MBDA saying "let me loot Indians tooo"

I do not think so, It looks like more it is DRDO's attempt to stay in the game and offer a system that can compete against Spyder and Barak-1.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby Austin » 05 Jul 2010 22:35

John wrote:I do not think so, It looks like more it is DRDO's attempt to stay in the game and offer a system that can compete against Spyder and Barak-1.


Nice point never thought along those line , its also a fact that DRDO is up against IAI in this SHORAD game and must come up with better option.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby Surya » 05 Jul 2010 22:46

but if DRDO is already colloborating on other missiles with the Israelis why would then not colloborate in this sector.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby Kanson » 05 Jul 2010 23:46

Austin wrote:
John wrote:I do not think so, It looks like more it is DRDO's attempt to stay in the game and offer a system that can compete against Spyder and Barak-1.


Nice point never thought along those line , its also a fact that DRDO is up against IAI in this SHORAD game and must come up with better option.

Sometimes i'm spellbounded by conspiracy theories. DRDO which is working with IAI for the developement of Barak-NG for both IAF/IN suddenly turned against them for the SHORAD system ?

Anyway, if this make any sense...SPYDER seekers were developed by IAI. It is with same IAI, DRDO is co-developing new Barak missile which includes seeker and other stuff... FWIW, it is the same IAI which develops Arrow ABM seeker...If DRDO goes again to IAI to co-develop SHORAD, its going to involve the same tech again & again.

So it make sense in co-opting MBDA for the SHORAD. By this, you leverage tech & design knowledge from both worlds.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby John » 06 Jul 2010 01:29

Surya wrote:but if DRDO is already colloborating on other missiles with the Israelis why would then not colloborate in this sector.

IAI is collaborating with DRDO on barak-8 simply because they need the $$$ since IDF refused to fund a system they did not need (it was originally supposed to be Singapore which went with Aster instead).

Kanson wrote:.If DRDO goes again to IAI to co-develop SHORAD, its going to involve the same tech again & again.

What would IAI gain in joint venture with DRDO on SHORAD when the system has already been developed (MR is simply a larger booster added onto Derby/Python missile) and IA/IAF has chosen the SPYDER over VL MICA.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby Surya » 06 Jul 2010 06:08

IAI would never turn down more $$$ if thats the argument :)

Its possible the Israeli SHORAD lacks something which the DRDO\MBDA Shorad will have??/

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby Kanson » 06 Jul 2010 17:34

John wrote:
Surya wrote:but if DRDO is already colloborating on other missiles with the Israelis why would then not colloborate in this sector.

IAI is collaborating with DRDO on barak-8 simply because they need the $$$ since IDF refused to fund a system they did not need (it was originally supposed to be Singapore which went with Aster instead).

Kanson wrote:.If DRDO goes again to IAI to co-develop SHORAD, its going to involve the same tech again & again.

What would IAI gain in joint venture with DRDO on SHORAD when the system has already been developed (MR is simply a larger booster added onto Derby/Python missile) and IA/IAF has chosen the SPYDER over VL MICA.


Yes there were some controversies surrounding the Barak & SPYDER purchase, but i'm not able to get your point of what you are hinting at...BTW SPYDER deal involves tech transfer to BDL for the local manufacture.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby Willy » 06 Jul 2010 20:21

Astra successfully testfired for the first time at nite. News on news channels.


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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby Aditya_V » 06 Jul 2010 21:30

Why is it repeatedlly stated Astra can intercept aircraft at Mach 1.2 to Mach 1.4. Is that for the 110Km range. Does in mean it cant intercept an SU-30MKK for F-7 flying at Mach 2+

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby JimmyJ » 07 Jul 2010 01:35

Why is it that an AA missile need to be tested for the night time, unless it it an IR one?

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby Asit P » 07 Jul 2010 08:28

Aditya_V wrote:Why is it repeatedlly stated Astra can intercept aircraft at Mach 1.2 to Mach 1.4.

It could be the chase speed.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby sathyaC » 07 Jul 2010 09:03

Sid wrote:
vic wrote:MBDA has been trying to sell SHORAD programme called FLAADS or some such thing to Europe-NATO for sometime. Now they have got new Murga. Havnt we learnt any lessons from screw driver R&D called Shakti engine?


if pictures are to be followed (published on Aroor's blog) it is VL-MICA renamed MAITRI.

I wonder what are we co-developing here. And why it will take 3 damn years from signing of contract to test this already existing missile?

This program has striking resemblance with Brahmos, where officially it is taking 3-4 years to test an already existing air launched version of Brahmos (AKA 3M55 Yakhont) which Russian are offering in market with some Su 27 variant.


Evan Astra missile looks similar
Astra
http://www.orissatv.in/UserFiles/FULLPA ... /Astra.jpg
http://www.acig.org/artman/uploads/in_ast_001.jpg

MICA
http://www.militarypictures.info/d/788-2/mica.jpg
http://www.militarypictures.info/d/788-2/mica.jpg

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby Kanson » 07 Jul 2010 09:16

Aditya_V wrote:Why is it repeatedlly stated Astra can intercept aircraft at Mach 1.2 to Mach 1.4. Is that for the 110Km range. Does in mean it cant intercept an SU-30MKK for F-7 flying at Mach 2+

Sir, can the SU-30MKK do a Mach2+ dash at the sea level ?

Three altitudes were noted for operating the missile, 15 km, 30,000' and at Sea level. It could mean at sea level without any further clarification...

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby vic » 07 Jul 2010 13:07

Kanson wrote:Sometimes i'm spellbounded by conspiracy theories. DRDO which is working with IAI for the developement of Barak-NG for both IAF/IN suddenly turned against them for the SHORAD system ?

Anyway, if this make any sense...SPYDER seekers were developed by IAI. It is with same IAI, DRDO is co-developing new Barak missile which includes seeker and other stuff... FWIW, it is the same IAI which develops Arrow ABM seeker...If DRDO goes again to IAI to co-develop SHORAD, its going to involve the same tech again & again.

So it make sense in co-opting MBDA for the SHORAD. By this, you leverage tech & design knowledge from both worlds



Like HAL leveraged Shakti technolgy to learn zilch? or HAL leveraged technology by import assembling of dozens of foreign designs. Or BEL is leveraging night sights or thermal sight screw driver tecnology from various parties. or as DRDO is leveraging Lahat tech. Or as OFB is offering foregin products with Indian sticker. Rather than having 2 half baked JVs; read import under JV label, it makes more sense to completely indigenise one and work on pure Indian seeker for future. As I said this deal looks like "me too" offer from MBDA. If Israel are porking then why we/MBDA should be left behind.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby nrshah » 07 Jul 2010 15:06

http://i953.photobucket.com/albums/ae20/ironmandef/12.jpg

I think we missed this... a report on hyper sonic cruise missile by Indo -Russians...

Hints this time we will be working on engines (RAM+SCRAMJET)as well

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby Singha » 07 Jul 2010 16:06

the bolded part understands the night test - the fired since it was raining. missiles got to work in the rain for sure.

Astra test-fired for second consecutive day
PTI
Wednesday, July 7, 2010 14:51 IST

Balasore: India today test-fired 'Astra', the indigenously developed beyond visual range (BVR) air-to-air missile at Chandipur near here, hours after carrying out the first night trial of the weapon.

The sophisticated missile was fired from a launcher at the Integrated Test Range (ITR) complex, about 15 kms from here, at about 2.07 pm, defence sources said.

The second consecutive trial comes after the missile was test-fired for the first time for night trial in inclement weather conditions last night. The data generated were being thoroughly examined by Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) scientists, the sources said.

The single stage, solid-fuelled 'Astra' is more advanced in its category than the contemporary BVR missiles and is capable of engaging and destroying highly manoeuvrable supersonic aerial targets, DRDO scientists said.

The 3.8-metre-long missile, which has a diameter of 178 mm, can carry a warhead containing explosives weighing 15 kgs and can be fitted to any fighter aircraft.

It is intended for eventual integration with the IAFs Sukhoi-30 MKI, MiG-29, Mirage-2000, Jaguar and the Tejas Light Combat Aircraft, the sources said.

Describing 'Astra' as a futuristic missile, the scientists said the weapon could intercept targets at supersonic speed (mach 1.2 to 1.4).

"Before being made fully operational, the complex missile system will undergo some more trials, though tests of its navigation, control, air frame, propulsion and other sub-systems have been validated," the sources said.

Though the exact range of today's trial was not disclosed, DRDO scientists are working to ensure 'Astra' performs effectively at different altitudes - one cruising at an altitude of 15km with 90 to 110km range, another at an altitude up to 30,000 ft, having a range of 44km and the third at sea level with a range of 25km, the sources said.

The trials of Astra, conducted on January 11 this year from the same base, were successful.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby Sid » 07 Jul 2010 16:17

nrshah wrote:http://i953.photobucket.com/albums/ae20/ironmandef/12.jpg

I think we missed this... a report on hyper sonic cruise missile by Indo -Russians...

Hints this time we will be working on engines (RAM+SCRAMJET)as well


Wind tunnel model in the paper reminds of existing GELA hypersonic air vehicle. I this vechicle was a test bed for future missiles AS-19 Koala /SS-N-24 SCORPION / Kh-90 Meteorit-A.

http://www.testpilot.ru/russia/raduga/g ... s/gela.jpg
Last edited by Sid on 07 Jul 2010 19:04, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby parshuram » 07 Jul 2010 17:17


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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby JimmyJ » 07 Jul 2010 18:26

Thanks Singha.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby shiv » 07 Jul 2010 18:44

Sid wrote:]

Wind tunnel model in the paper reminds of existing GELA hypersonic air vehicle.


I am unable to see anything other than a general similarity. The details are very different
Please edit your huge inline image and just post a link.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby Sid » 07 Jul 2010 19:06

shiv wrote:
Sid wrote:]

Wind tunnel model in the paper reminds of existing GELA hypersonic air vehicle.


I am unable to see anything other than a general similarity. The details are very different
Please edit your huge inline image and just post a link.


That's why I said it "reminds" me.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby Kanson » 07 Jul 2010 19:57

vic wrote:
Kanson wrote: By this, you leverage tech & design knowledge from both worlds



Like HAL leveraged Shakti technolgy to learn zilch? or HAL leveraged technology by import assembling of dozens of foreign designs. Or BEL is leveraging night sights or thermal sight screw driver tecnology from various parties. or as DRDO is leveraging Lahat tech. Or as OFB is offering foregin products with Indian sticker. Rather than having 2 half baked JVs; read import under JV label, it makes more sense to completely indigenise one and work on pure Indian seeker for future. As I said this deal looks like "me too" offer from MBDA. If Israel are porking then why we/MBDA should be left behind.
Fundamental problem when someone writing on BEL not able to leverage[yes, i read that piece and it chides BEL for not able to get 3rd Gen tech from the 2nd Gen tech transfer, funny isn't it] from TOT is not understanding how you develop products. It is not to say everything is alright. What i'm saying is you decided to do a TOT one day...and the next day you expect to absorb the tech, master them and work on them to deliver superior products out of them. For an outsider[one who is not related to these tech develop cycle] it is easy to say that. If you ask me problem is the basic policy. You encourage research not by pushing someone in the corner but creating enough environment and encouragement to do that, consistently. Ok, let it be. what is this on lahat you are trying to hint ?

Ok, lets come to the agreement that MBDA offer on Maitri is a "me too" offer. But Indians are not "I take whatever is offered" kind of types.. There were instances where we rejected the "me too" offer. Why would they take if there is no use for them. Let just leave any conspiracy theories out of this at this moment. Think rationally and try for answers. If someone coming with "me too" offer, is it not you deal with them from the position of strength where you can leverage to your needs..? As i said before MICA can be considered as Aster-lite. Poland has chosen MICA for short range and Aster-30 for long rage. From the tech aspect in which way you are trying to say the deal stinks?

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby suryag » 08 Jul 2010 19:32

Did we miss this on the Astra

Astra faces glitch after meeting ‘basic objective'

S.K. Chaudhuri, Chairman of Astra's Flight Readiness Review Committee and Associate Director, Research Centre Imarat (RCI), one of the premier laboratories of DRDO told The Hindu that the missile's manoeuvrability went off as expected as it reached an electronically- simulated target in 15 seconds at an altitude of 12 km. “It didn't function as per our expectation after that,” he added. He said the launch happened smoothly up to the target interception stage. The scientists wanted to give one more command to the missile after it intercepted the target. However, one channel didn't function. Similar problem occurred during the night trial on Tuesday following a smooth launch. The missile's new on-board computer, navigation system and other data links performed well.


Very confusing to a layman. What did the expect the missile to do after interception come back ?? :-?

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby Jayram » 08 Jul 2010 20:04

Detonation perhaps.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby Uttam » 08 Jul 2010 20:21

Jayram wrote:Detonation perhaps.


Making a wild guess:

Its probably not detonation. Wouldn't they use the same (similar), proven detonator they have in Akash?

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby tsarkar » 08 Jul 2010 20:23

Datalink didn’t work.

Datalink is important for a BVR missile. Just before launch, the launch aircraft feeds data to the missile to fly out to target location. Now, in the time taken for the missile to fly out to the target location, the target may have changed position. If the target isn’t within missile’s radar cone, missile becomes ineffective.

So the launch aircraft, via datalink, sends data to the missile on updated target location. On receipt of this data, missile alters course and flies to newer location.

In case of these Astra tests, the missile went to the initially designated position. However, it didn’t receive information on updated target location and failed to go there. Indicative of datalink problems.

The “other datalink” referred here, refers to telemetry datalinks. These completely different from command datalinks.

Detonation is via proximity fuse, no need for command

They're giving a spin of part success by claiming missile went up to initially designated position and intercepted target. In the real world, that would have happened if target stayed in its present course and took no evasive action.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby Singha » 08 Jul 2010 20:29

I believe the datalink rod antennas are conformal with the tailfins of AAMs because thats the direction of the launch platform. could be hell of a job to establish a stable data over radio link with a missile receding at mach4. but the Akash exp will help.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby shiv » 08 Jul 2010 21:31

suryag wrote:Did we miss this on the Astra

Astra faces glitch after meeting ‘basic objective'


Well better than "Everything worked well" I always worry when everything works well in tests.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby Kanson » 08 Jul 2010 22:30

>>>Well better than "Everything worked well" I always worry when everything works well in tests.
:)

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby pralay » 08 Jul 2010 23:11

I have strong feeling that the "Astra" missile has "Lock On After Launch/Delivery" mechanism
and that must have failed.

or may be some mechanism to designate waypoints or something like that ?

Otherwise why would they call it futuristic ?

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby pralay » 08 Jul 2010 23:27

yeh thats it
wiki astra says
Guidance system : Inertial, mid-course update and terminal active radar homing (15 km)

So most probably the datalink failed when the missile switched on the radar for final target acquisition OR after the mid-course update.
Last edited by pralay on 08 Jul 2010 23:41, edited 1 time in total.


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