Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

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Kanson
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby Kanson » 30 Nov 2010 22:00

http://ajaishukla.blogspot.com/2010/11/ ... neers.html

A press release from the DRDO, issued today, is attached below:

PUNE BASED DRDO LAB MAKES MOST POWERFUL CONVENTIONAL EXPLOSIVE

New Delhi: Agrahayana 09, 1932
November 30, 2010

Move over RDX! That’s passé for the needs of the Indian Armed Forces. The DRDO is developing a powerful explosive, --- the CL-20, that can substantially reduce the weight and size of the warhead while packing much more punch. In fact, the RDX is not the standard explosive in use with the Indian Armed Forces; the warheads are mostly packed with HMX, FOX-7 or amorphous Boron.

Scientists at the Pune-based High Energy Materials Research Laboratory (HEMRL) have already synthesized adequate quantity of CL-20 in the laboratory. “It is the most powerful non-nuclear explosive yet known to man,” says Dr. AK Sikder, Joint Director, HEMRL, who heads the High Energy Materials Division. The compound, ‘Indian CL-20’ or ICL-20, was indigenously synthesized in the HEMRL laboratory using inverse technology, he added. “The HEMRL has taken India to an elite club of countries with advanced capabilities in the field of Energetic Materials,” said Shri Manish Bhardwaj, a senior Scientist with the HEMRL. In fact, the CL-20 is such a fascination for the HEMRL that a larger-than-life size model of the compound occupies the pride of place as one enters the portals of the main building of the DRDO's premier lab in Pune.

CL-20, so named after the China Lake facility of the Naval Air Weapons Station in California, US, was first synthesized by Dr. Arnold Nielson in 1987. CL-20, or Octa-Nitro-Cubane, is a Nitramine class of explosive 15 times as powerful as HMX, His/Her Majesty Explosive or High Melting Explosive or Octogen. The HMX itself is more than four times as potent as the Research Developed Explosive or Royal Demolition Explosive or Cyclonite or Hexogen, commonly known as RDX.

“CL-20 offers the only option within the next 10-15 years to meet the requirements of the Indian Armed Forces for Futuristic Weapons,” said Dr. Sikder. “CL-20 based Shaped Charges significantly improve the penetration over armours,” he said, adding that it could be used in the bomb for the 120-mm main gun mounted on the MBT-Arjun. “But the costs of mass production of ICL-20 are still prohibitive,” said Dr. Sikder. Compared to Rs.750 per kilogram it takes to produce RDX in the factory today, the HMX is worth about Rs.6,000 per kg while a kilogram of CL-20 costs a whopping Rs.70,000 per kg.

“We have a tie up with industry partner for intermediate commercial exploitation of ICL-20,” said Dr. A. Subhananda Rao, Director, HEMRL. About 100 kgs of ICL-20 has been produced by HEMRL in collaboration with the Premier Explosives Limited (PEL). The CL-20, which looks like limestone or grainy talcum powder, is being manufactured by the PEL factory at Peddakanlukur village in Nalgonda district of Andhra Pradesh. The Rs.60 crores Hyderabad-based company bagged the DRDO’s Defence Technology Absorption Award, 2007 worth Rs.Ten Lakhs, presented by Prime Minister Dr. Manmohan Singh on May 12, 2008, their most prestigious award, claimed company sources.

“The advantage with the CL-20 is its Reduced Sensitivity,” said Dr. Sikder, enabling easy handling and transportation of the lethal weaponry. In fact, the HEMRL is concentrating on the Reduced Shock Sensitivity (RSS) explosives, such as RSS-RDX, which costs about Rs.1,500-2,000 per kg, and RSS-HMX. “There is a whole array of low sensitivity material or Insensitive Munitions we are working on,” said Dr. Rao. “The world around there is a lot of R&D being pumped into what are called the Green Explosives, as also the advanced Insensitive Munitions (IM) and RSS explosives,” added Dr. Sikder, which reduces the chances of mishap and loss to M4, - Men, Money, Materials and Machines.
======================================================================

While main thrust seems to be increasing the insensitive of the explosive/propellants, we are ever increasing the envelope of propellants typically custom designed.

we moved from conventionally used propellants like HTPB/Al/AP to various Nitro amines (RDX, HMX, etc) and Nitrate esters (PETN, NEPE etc) based propellants. CL-20 is one such newly developed Nitro amine. Modern ICBMs are known to use such poly nitro group based propellants.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby Juggi G » 01 Dec 2010 04:53

China, US Find Mention In Most Powerful Conventional Explosive Indigenously Developed For Indian Armed Forces !!!
Chindits
Image
Image
Image
Move over RDX! That’s passé for the needs of the Indian Armed Forces. The DRDO is developing a powerful explosive, - the CL-20, that can substantially reduce the weight and size of the warhead while packing much more punch. In fact, the RDX is not the standard explosive in use with the Indian Armed Forces; the warheads are mostly packed with HMX, FOX-7 or amorphous Boron.

Scientists at the Pune-based High Energy Materials Research Laboratory (HEMRL) have already synthesized adequate quantity of CL-20 in the laboratory. “It is the most powerful non-nuclear explosive yet known to man,” says Dr. AK Sikder, Joint Director, HEMRL, who heads the High Energy Materials Division. The compound, ‘Indian CL-20’ or ICL-20, was indigenously synthesized in the HEMRL laboratory using inverse technology, he added. “The HEMRL has taken India to an elite club of countries with advanced capabilities in the field of Energetic Materials,” said Shri Manish Bhardwaj, a senior Scientist with the HEMRL. In fact, the CL-20 is such a fascination for the HEMRL that a larger-than-life size model of the compound occupies the pride of place as one enters the portals of the main building of the DRDO's premier lab in Pune.

CL-20, so named after the China Lake facility of the Naval Air Weapons Station in California, US, was first synthesized by Dr. Arnold Nielson in 1987. CL-20, or Octa-Nitro-Cubane, is a Nitramine class of explosive 15 times as powerful as HMX, His/Her Majesty Explosive or High Melting Explosive or Octogen. The HMX itself is more than four times as potent as the Research Developed Explosive or Royal Demolition Explosive or Cyclonite or Hexogen, commonly known as RDX.

“CL-20 offers the only option within the next 10-15 years to meet the requirements of the Indian Armed Forces for Futuristic Weapons,” said Dr. Sikder. “CL-20 -based Shaped Charges significantly improve the penetration over armours,” he said, adding that it could be used in the bomb for the 120-mm main gun mounted on the MBT-Arjun. “But the costs of mass production of ICL-20 are still prohibitive,” said Dr. Sikder. Compared to Rs.750 per kilogram it takes to produce RDX in the factory today, the HMX is worth about Rs.6,000 per kg while a kilogram of CL-20 costs a whopping Rs.70,000 per kg.

“We have a tie up with industry partner for intermediate commercial exploitation of ICL-20,” said Dr. A. Subhananda Rao, Director, HEMRL. About 100 kgs of ICL-20 has been produced by HEMRL in collaboration with the Premier Explosives Limited (PEL). The CL-20, which looks like limestone or grainy talcum powder, is being manufactured by the PEL factory at Peddakanlukur village in Nalgonda district of Andhra Pradesh. The Rs.60 crores Hyderabad-based company bagged the DRDO’s Defence Technology Absorption Award, 2007 worth Rs.Ten Lakhs, presented by Prime Minister Dr. Manmohan Singh on May 12, 2008, their most prestigious award, claimed company sources.

“The advantage with the CL-20 is its Reduced Sensitivity,” said Dr. Sikder, enabling easy handling and transportation of the lethal weaponry. In fact, the HEMRL is concentrating on the Reduced Shock Sensitivity (RSS) explosives, such as RSS-RDX, which costs about Rs.1,500-2,000 per kg, and RSS-HMX. “There is a whole array of low sensitivity material or Insensitive Munitions we are working on,” said Dr. Rao. “The world around there is a lot of R&D being pumped into what are called the Green Explosives, as also the advanced Insensitive Munitions (IM) and RSS explosives,” added Dr. Sikder, which reduces the chances of mishap and loss to M4, - Men, Money, Materials and Machines.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby ShivaS » 01 Dec 2010 05:44

and RSS explosives,” added Dr. Sikder,


There you go again :(( :mrgreen: :rotfl:

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby Prem » 01 Dec 2010 06:38

So the 1000kG Bomb can now become equivalent to 15000k Moab when dropped on Poakroaches !! :D

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby kit » 01 Dec 2010 08:35

Can the CL 20 be used to improve the trigger for a thermo nuclear device ?

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby Singha » 01 Dec 2010 08:56

I wonder about its application on HEAT warheads....since we have to use the full 120mm diameter of barrel, same weight of this new explosive could impart more power to the shell. -- if it can be economically produced in bulk and is safe as conventional explosive - those are the keys.

in mountain regiments, direct fire light guns could benefit.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby Pratyush » 01 Dec 2010 09:32

Can we now build a HE 5.56 mm bulet with the blast effect of 40 MM granade. :P

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby kit » 01 Dec 2010 09:41

A few GPS guided smart shells using this can equal an artillery barrage.Surgical precision :mrgreen:

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby sanjaykumar » 01 Dec 2010 09:43

Interesting molecule-they should try it with a prism type cyclopropane derivative :mrgreen:

(Probably will blow up as it is being looked at)


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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby Raghavendra » 01 Dec 2010 10:30

Pratyush wrote:Can we now build a HE 5.56 mm bulet with the blast effect of 40 MM granade. :P

No, barrel will burst and the person firing would be in danger, there is a reason why high energy explosives are not used in manufacture of bullets.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby Pratyush » 01 Dec 2010 10:43

^^^

ouch......

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby Sid » 01 Dec 2010 11:27

Raghavendra wrote:
Pratyush wrote:Can we now build a HE 5.56 mm bulet with the blast effect of 40 MM granade. :P

No, barrel will burst and the person firing would be in danger, there is a reason why high energy explosives are not used in manufacture of bullets.


hai ji??? why it will burst. Wont that make 40MM too dangerous to be operated?

There are High Explosive rounds/bullets available for AA12.
Image

Also High Explosive Incendiary/Armor Piercing Ammunition (HEIAP) are available for medium-caliber sizes (.5 cal >).

We don't have (not that we know of) any small caliber HEIAP because the explosive power they will carry will not be of any significance.

Image
Last edited by Sid on 01 Dec 2010 11:31, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby jamwal » 01 Dec 2010 11:30

When I last read her posts (Suman Sharma) in BRF, I thought some of the BR members shared some of the blame for her behaviour. But I stand corrected now. Heading of her article is way beyond stupid. God help her and her readers.
Last edited by jamwal on 01 Dec 2010 11:57, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby neerajb » 01 Dec 2010 11:45

Raghavendra wrote:
Pratyush wrote:Can we now build a HE 5.56 mm bulet with the blast effect of 40 MM granade. :P

No, barrel will burst and the person firing would be in danger, there is a reason why high energy explosives are not used in manufacture of bullets.


Didn't he mean to use CL-20 inside the bullet and not as a propellant. Anyway even if used as propellant (assuming the barrel will withstand the pressures), Won't the cartridge need a detonator unlike the primer in cartridges? Do we have detonators small enough to fit inside the 5.56 cartridge?

Cheers....

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby KBDagha » 01 Dec 2010 11:50

Just playing devil's advocate:

Is ICL-20 the magic substance which Denil (Cant remember the exact name)the person who claim to be an insider on Arjun project was talking about :P

Regards,
Khambat Dagha

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby Austin » 01 Dec 2010 12:02

I dont know why blogs are claiming the CL-20 news as the latest one , IE broke this news in Dec 2009

HEMRL breaks new ground: powerful explosive in the pipeline
Ranjani Raghavan Posted: Wed Dec 16 2009, 06:09 hrs

High Energy Material Research Laboratory (HEMRL) has initiated a project to create an explosive that is 20 per cent more powerful than the basic High Melting Explosives (HMX). Currently warheads for Indian weapons systems like Agni or Prithvi use either the HMX or the RDX – Royal Demolishing Explosives for ammunition. But the new ammunition promises to be even more powerful. .

The Octa Nitrane Cubane or the ONC, when synthesized would be several steps ahead of HMX and even the China Lake – 20 or CL-20. The CL-20 is currently the most energetic explosive available with India. “We have begun the feasibility study for the synthesis of ONC. It will be at least 10 per cent more powerful than the CL-20 explosive that we synthesized a few years ago at the laboratory,” said Subananda Rao, Director HEMRL.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby dinesha » 01 Dec 2010 17:19

Brahmos likely to be flight tested on Thursday
http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/new ... 021761.cms
BALASORE (Orissa): Brahmos cruise missile is likely to be flight tested from the Integrated Test Range (ITR) at Chandipur off Orissa coast on Thursday.

"Range co-ordination for the trial of Brahmos missile proposed to be conducted is near complete," an official of Defence Research Development Organisation (DRDO) said.

Brahmos, developed jointly with Russia , is a supersonic cruise missile and capable of being launched from multiple platforms like submarine, ship, aircraft and land based Mobile Autonomous Launchers (MAL).

One regiment of the 290-km range BrahMos-I variant, which consists of 67 missiles, five mobile autonomous launchers on 12x12 Tatra vehicles and two mobile command posts, among other equipment, is already operational in the Indian Army.

Similarly, Indian navy has begun inducting the first version of Brahmos missile system in all its frontline war ships from 2005.

The Army, on its part, is in the process of inducting two more regiments of the Brahmos Block-II land-attack cruise missiles (LACM), which have been designed as `precision strike weapons' capable of hitting small targets in cluttered urban environments.

The Brahmos missile is a two-stage vehicle that has a solid propellant booster and a liquid propellant ram-jet system. The missile can fly at 2.8 times the speed of sound. It can carry conventional warheads up to 300 kg for a range of 290 km. The missile can effectively engage ground targets from an altitude as low as 10 meters.

The first flight test of the Brahmos missile was conducted on June 12, 2001 at the Integrated Test Range at Chandipur in Orissa coast and the last trial, "at a supersonic speed in a steep-dive mode" was successfully carried out on Sept 5, 2010 from the same range.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby Kanson » 01 Dec 2010 17:54

KBDagha wrote:Just playing devil's advocate:

Is ICL-20 the magic substance which Denil (Cant remember the exact name)the person who claim to be an insider on Arjun project was talking about :P

Regards,
Khambat Dagha

what is he talking about the magic substance?

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby Kanson » 01 Dec 2010 18:00

Old news, but read in context in light of the show caused achievement in Cl-20(Octa nitro cubane) , the points listed here might show the direction in which we are proceeding instead of treating it as some inconsequential mundane speech rendered at the conference.
Dr. Saraswat said that we need to put more efforts on miniaturization, production, quality control, packaging and systems integration
.

He also encouraged research on high energy dense and energetic materials and also mentioned the futuristic Octanitro Cubane, Poly Nitrogen based systems and Insensitive Ammunition.

Dr. Saraswat stressed at the need for thermobaric warheads including FAEs which are effective in driving out terrorists from caves.

He also talked about today's requirements of smaller size rockets in large numbers which necessities improvements in the manufacturing process and also emphasized R and D in Nanomaterials for micro miniaturisation.{HEMRL has its own nano lab.}

During his speech, Dr. Sarswat sensitized the audience on the need to pay attention on development of eco-friendly high energy materials such as propellants with the help of green chemistry considering the global warming scenario.

He underlined that in view of the graduation from ramjet to scramjet technologies for applications like trans-atmospheric travel, the need to identify non-polluting high speed propellants have become very essential. Lastly congratulating HEMRL for the path breaking research carried out by the laboratory in the field of High Energy Materials in the last two decades he appealed to the HEM community and HEMSI to come out with contemporary and world class missiles, warheads and explosives.

http://news.oneindia.in/2009/12/09/7thi ... ndexh.html


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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby dinesha » 01 Dec 2010 20:16

New rocket system to guard Indian coast
http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/new ... 023228.cms
NEW DELHI: The DRDO is currently testing a new short-range coastal security rocket system for deployment on shore and on board ships to target rogue boats such as those used by terrorists to carry out the Mumbai attacks.

The DRDO's Chandipur-based Proof and Experimental Establishment (PXE) is testing the 4-km range 140mm rockets that can accurately target the smaller boats and sink them, according to S Sundaresh, Chief Controller of Research and Development (Armament and Combat Engineering) of the premier defence research agency.

Developed in collaboration with the Ordnance Factory Board (OFB) and Navy's Directorate General of Naval Armament and Inspection, the rockets' development and likely production are being fast-tracked following the 26/11 terror strikes, he said.

PXE Director Major General P Mathur said the coastal security weapon comes with a launcher and 12 rockets that can be fired simultaneously to rain the warhead over the intended target.

"This is cost-effective weapon system. But it is now in the developmental stage. OFB is the production agency," Mathur said.

The remote operated rocket system is an indigenous development that emerged out of the confluence of the minds from the OFB, DRDO and the Navy, who would be the users of the weapon.

"It has been proposed to deploy these rockets all along the 7,516-km-long coastline of ours including the island territories. We expect the weapon system to go into production within months from now," a Navy officer associated with the project said.

"Apart from being deployed on the shore, the rocket system can be mounted on ships too," he added.

To acquire targets, the user will have to visually identify the rogue or enemy boats and then use his remote control to fire the rocket barrage on them.

Though the three defence agencies were already working on the rocket system project even before the 26/11 attack, the weapon has now become "a hot property" and there is a sense of urgency to get it operational, Navy officials added.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby Pratyush » 01 Dec 2010 21:29

^^^

?? Direct decendent of the NAG??

If not then why not use a standard ATGM such as Konkurs/ Kornet /Nag for the job.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby Rahul M » 01 Dec 2010 21:49

nag is a missile, this is a rocket. I think it is the same as the one fitted on landing ships for shore bombardment.
the name escapes me at the moment. :-?

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby Gaur » 01 Dec 2010 21:50

Pratyush wrote:^^^

?? Direct decendent of the NAG??

If not then why not use a standard ATGM such as Konkurs/ Kornet /Nag for the job.

Cost. From what I understand from the article, it is supposed to be a low cost 140mm rocket without any guidance system whatsoever. This is done so that it could be mass produced and deployed along India's huge coast line. Note how the article uses the word "barrage" which should give some indication regarding the purpose and goals of the project.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby Austin » 01 Dec 2010 21:58

Kanson wrote:Old news, but read in context in light of the show caused achievement in Cl-20(Octa nitro cubane) , the points listed here might show the direction in which we are proceeding instead of treating it as some inconsequential mundane speech rendered at the conference.


Well I was pointing to the news put by blogs and by Ranjani Raghavan , the blog news on CL-20 is GOI dispatch and the one by IE is Rajani own dispatch , the only difference is he reported almost a year back and no one paid much attention , the blogs mentions CL-20 is Octa-Nitro-Cubane while Ranjani states that that HEMRL ONC is 10% more powerful than CL-20
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby Pratyush » 01 Dec 2010 22:32

Rahul M wrote:nag is a missile, this is a rocket. I think it is the same as the one fitted on landing ships for shore bombardment.
the name escapes me at the moment. :-?



Rahul,

I mentioned nag as the report speaks of accuracy, as far as barage of fire is concerned they may be thinking of a swarm of boats to be taken out simultainously.

But this is just speculation.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby Rahul M » 01 Dec 2010 22:42

no speculation, I'm pretty certain this is related to the shore bombardment rockets I wrote about earlier.
which is a reverse engineered polish design if memory serves right.

added later : found it http://www.lnthed.com/hedhome/DEFENCE1/defence/wm18.htm

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby Pratyush » 01 Dec 2010 23:08

OK.............

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby JTull » 02 Dec 2010 11:25

Breaking news! Brahmos test fired.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby Pratyush » 02 Dec 2010 11:27

WRT the CL 20 discussion. The power of the explosive should make the Indian SDB a reality. With a shaped charge warhead & GPS / Laser guidence.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby Singha » 02 Dec 2010 11:34

one looks forward to multi racks for our strike a/c each carrying 4 small SDB style bombs. even a M2k/Tejas should be able to carry 16 which is a huge boost (nearly 3X their usual number of bombs)
http://www.aviationnews.eu/blog/wp-cont ... 20rack.jpg
http://lh5.ggpht.com/_kIWY2DV0KnE/SrWtc ... 20F-15.JPG

Shiv saar is going to hate this new era of JSF style weapons :lol:

the MKI could likely carry a humongous load of 24 with outboard wing pylons still free for AAMs. a two plane pkg could wipe out a medium size village.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby dinesha » 02 Dec 2010 11:55

BrahMos missile test-fired successfully
PTI
http://www.indianexpress.com/news/india ... le/719153/

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby Rahul M » 02 Dec 2010 12:02

Singha wrote:one looks forward to multi racks for our strike a/c each carrying 4 small SDB style bombs. even a M2k/Tejas should be able to carry 16 which is a huge boost (nearly 3X their usual number of bombs)
http://www.aviationnews.eu/blog/wp-cont ... 20rack.jpg
http://lh5.ggpht.com/_kIWY2DV0KnE/SrWtc ... 20F-15.JPG

Shiv saar is going to hate this new era of JSF style weapons :lol:

the MKI could likely carry a humongous load of 24 with outboard wing pylons still free for AAMs. a two plane pkg could wipe out a medium size village.

I would like a nag derived A2G missile like the brimstone. could be very useful.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby chackojoseph » 02 Dec 2010 12:20

Last edited by chackojoseph on 02 Dec 2010 19:27, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby VikB » 02 Dec 2010 15:01

^^^ it is no more even exciting to read of another Brahmos test. a few months later we will get to know that probably it was the 6th of nth test of a new cruise missile.

One place where I love to be duped :mrgreen:

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby parshuram » 02 Dec 2010 16:14

Shiv arror is saying Brahmos test was Block III + ....
link

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby Austin » 02 Dec 2010 16:24

^^ Quite Amazing ,Brahmos gets better by the day.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby Singha » 02 Dec 2010 17:04

sounds like plans are afoot to deal with caves and SAM sites in Tibet.
....
This landmark test once again established the mountain warfare capability of the supersonic cruise missile with new guidance scheme incorporating large scale manoeuvre and steep dive with precision strike capability......it successfully went through all complicated manoeuvres as envisaged in the battlefield in mountain terrains following the exact flight path given to it, said Dr. A. Sivathanu Pillai, CEO & Managing Director of BrahMos Aerospace.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby Kanson » 02 Dec 2010 17:39

It is the same missile with improved guidance, i think. This steep dive was attempted earlier. And it is rumoured to have influenced by Shourya. Extra feature seems to be the manoeuverability over mountain terrain.


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