Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

sunny y · Post by **sunny y** » 16 Jul 2010 23:43

Nag's final validation trials completed

http://www.hindu.com/2010/07/16/stories ... 531500.htm

Balle Balle

Kartik · Post by **Kartik** » 21 Jul 2010 04:55

In the latest issue of AW&ST, there are a few more details on the Astra missile project. Can’t scan it so typing it out.

The recent ground-launched tests were intended to assess control systems, maneuvering performance and lateral acceleration. The Astra test team is currently investigating 2 data-link related “incidents” observed during trials where the missile did not behave as expected. Preliminary findings indicate that there may have been certain sub-system compatibility issues that will need attention before the next series of tests, which are scheduled for around September.

Good news is that the problems are not thought to be serious enough to delay the next series of firings, and a post-committee is already looking into the issues and scientists are confident that these will be resolved without delaying the next set of tests.

Seven captive-carry trials of the Astra have already been carried out on a Su-30MKI. First firing of an Astra from a Su-30MKI is likely to take place by year-end or early next year.

A Mk.2 version of the Astra is being specified which has a significant increase in the missile’s engagement range. A scientist said that “We are drawing up various parameters and hope to have a clearer picture of the new missile by early next year. Our mandate is to keep the missile design as similar as possible to the Astra Mk1. At this stage it appears that Astra Mk2 will be slightly larger than the Astra Mk1, with modified electromechanics. We hope to keep the airframe design changes to an absolute minimum.”

Astra length is 3.7 m, diameter is 178 mm and weight is 160 kgs (350lbs). The basic version also has a claimed engagement range of 80 km (50 mi), although its actual engagement envelope against maneuvering targets would be far less than this.

One aim of the Astra Mk2 is that a lofted trajectory firing should give it a range in excess of 130 km, but these parameters have still to be identified and frozen. Different laboratories within the DRDO are devising a technology roadmap for this purpose, the scientist said.

While there were indications that Astra may be getting help from European missile house MBDA, it now appears that New Delhi is looking at Moscow for guidance.

Russian radar-seeker Agat has apparently been supporting Astra development since 2007. Agat offers a family of active-seekers under the generic export banner of the 9B-1103M, a variant of which is compatible with the Astra.

The recent tests involved both un-guided and guided firings, with the latter involving a missile fitted with a Russian seeker. Industry sources say that discussions between DRDL and Agat involve the Astra Mk2, although there is a focus on bringing a nationally developed radar seeker up to test standards.

The team has set a deadline of 2011 to begin running the Indian radar seeker through a series of tests. Further guided shots of Astra Mk1, however are expected to continue to use the Russian guidance seeker.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 21 Jul 2010 09:39

So they dropped the J band seeker of Meteor for Astra as was originally planned ?

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 21 Jul 2010 11:31

was meteor tech ever for sale? why would mbda hit their own legs with axe? looks like something went sour in the talks with mbda or too high price was asked...

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 21 Jul 2010 11:34

But weren't we dancing and singing some days back when a co-development of seeker with MBDA was proposed and how the seeker which was a J band meteor seeker was superior to the Agat offer on table.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 21 Jul 2010 11:37

I dont recall that discussion. what report was it based on ?

I only recall an early claim that mbda was roped in as consultant due to external similarity of astra and mica (mid body long fins).

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 21 Jul 2010 11:39

Well it was there some time back , there was a news report of co development of seeker with MBDA , I remember Sumeet was there in that discussion.

I am sure you too would have been there , but these days there are too many things to discuss.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 21 Jul 2010 11:44

http://www.business-standard.com/india/ ... ht/373650/

this oct2009 reports says the seeker is a agat import. I tried searches in google but couldnt locate chatter of meteor seeker
on astra. there are many reports that all the 3 MRCA EU planes will offer meteor ofcourse.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 21 Jul 2010 14:58

Well even I could not locate the exact chat we had on this , but may be if Sumeet is looking at this thread he will remember the chat we had.

But there is some reference I found on MBDA & Astra Seeker

link

March 19/06: DRDL scientists say they will sign a pact with MBDA to develop a dedicated active seeker-head system for the indigenous Astra beyond-visual-range missile, which is being developed in Hyderabad.

Check the specs of Astra and reference to Ku band seeker Astra

The Ku band seeker is used in Meteor missile

Now the seeker Agat Seeker 9B-1103M

Agat Seeker

Though it does not mention the RF band it operates

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 21 Jul 2010 16:11

India eyes Patriots & Javelins
The Patriot evaluation seems to have gone on silently.

ndia is evaluating the advanced Patriot ground-based air defence system for its ballistic missile shield and the US has provided 'classified' material to it on the weapon unit, which was successfully used during both Desert Storm and Operation Iraqi Freedom.

peaking about India interest in the Patriot ground-based air defence system, Joseph Garret, Vice President of the Raytheon's Patriot Programmes, said: "A number of exchanges have taken place between the government of India and the US and information has been given to India at the classified level."

Replying to questions, he said tests of the Patriot system, which has been procured by 12 countries, by India's Defence Research and Development Organisation and other agencies had been "highly successful".

On India developing its own missile defence shield, Garret said, "Patriot system gives a major boost to any country's defence capability. India may be developing its own system, but Patriot is a combat-proven weapon system."

Another senior official of Raytheon, a defence and aerospace major, said Washington and New Delhi have also discussed the issue of India-specific end-user accords.

"If the US government gives a go-ahead, Raytheon will step in," he said.

Taylor W Lawrence, President of Raytheon's Missile Systems, said India is also looking at the 'Javelin' anti-tank and anti-armour missile 'and a 'letter of intent' is expected to be issue soon.

"Javelin has been fully tested by the Indian land forces. We expect a letter of intent from the Indian government," he said.

tsarkar · Post by **tsarkar** » 21 Jul 2010 16:41

Not really, its just a spin.

Replying to questions, he said tests of the Patriot system, which has been procured by 12 countries, by India's Defence Research and Development Organisation and other agencies had been "highly successful".

Most probably, what he means is that DRDO chaps saw test firing of Patriot by Raytheon and those test firings were "highly successful".

IAF & IA chaps evaluated successful VL Mica firings in 2005 and bought Spyder

http://www.mbda-systems.com/mbda/site/r ... ews_id=136

The successful test took place at 13.00 p.m. (local time), in front of an evaluation team from the Indian Air Force as well as Indian Army officers at the Centre d’Essais de Lancement de Missiles (CELM) missile test centre near Biscarosse on the South West coast of France. MBDA, together with its Indian industrial partner Bharat Dynamics Limited (BDL), is offering the VL MICA system as the solution to the Indian Air Force’s expressed requirement for a Low Level Quick Reaction Missile (LLQRM) air defence system.

As we all know from Arjun, "highly successful" tests are no guarantee of procurement

Its time they learnt the same

After MR-SAM/LR-SAM/PAD/AAD, we wont see any long range SAM procurement, unless these programs encounter difficulties.

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 21 Jul 2010 16:43

SSridhar wrote:<SNIP>Taylor W Lawrence, President of Raytheon's Missile Systems, said India is also looking at the 'Javelin' anti-tank and anti-armour missile 'and a 'letter of intent' is expected to be issue soon.

"Javelin has been fully tested by the Indian land forces. We expect a letter of intent from the Indian government," he said.

That is a good weapon system to have - only question is the recent planned import of more than 4,000 Milan-2T.....these are similar systems (in weight and deployment wise) although the Javelin is generation ahead (F&F). May be, the Milan-2T can be for dedicated ATGM Units while Javelin will go to Line Infantry Units

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 21 Jul 2010 16:48

tsarkar wrote:After MR-SAM/LR-SAM/PAD/AAD, we wont see any long range SAM procurement, unless these programs encounter difficulties.

There is a desire and effort going on within GOI circle to procure limited number of PAC-3 , not sure though why we need it.

nrshah · Post by **nrshah** » 21 Jul 2010 16:50

http://i953.photobucket.com/albums/ae20 ... Update.jpg

Scanned copy of the AWST which Kartik mentioned....

tsarkar · Post by **tsarkar** » 21 Jul 2010 17:11

Austin,

All I am hearing is from Raytheon and Lockheed, no one from GoI has said anything.

However, GoI may have a motive - payback for 123. For example, I see no reason for Apache when LCH is going great and upgraded Mi-25/35 with Israeli systems will do great until 2015 when LCH enters service. Same for Chinook, C-17 and god knows what not.

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 21 Jul 2010 17:16

tsarkar Sir,

IMO, it is a fallacy to compare the LCH with something like Apache and/or Mi-28N. Yes, one can argue both do the same thing - but there is a reason it is called LCH. I distinctly remember reading an articel which said the LCH will be proliferated to larger audiences (read Corps) while Apache/Mi-28N will be held by Strike Corps.

Budget permitting, we may see a situation where a Corps HQ holds a Attack Hptr. Brigade with 2 LCH+1 Heavy Attack Heptr. The ratio may other way around for some Corps...but this situation is obtainable in future.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 21 Jul 2010 17:52

its about time we broke the ponderous strike corps into lighter IBGs and retooled and retasked them to fight a war in Tibet.

a mean, overpopulated, food scarce semi-desert populated by millions of goat eating religious nut hillbillies is not the kind of war booty we need at this stage of our empire.

Kanson · Post by **Kanson** » 21 Jul 2010 19:15

Agat is a Ku band seeker.

On Meteor it is J band seeker. Ku & J band intersects. So one might say both means the same.

The active seeker is a joint development between MBDA's Seeker Division and Thales Airborne Systems and builds on their co-operation on the 4A (Active Anti-Air Seeker) family of seekers that equip the MICA and ASTER missiles. Thales contributes its experience and capabilities to MBDA-led definition studies and produces four sub-assemblies representing approximately 35% of the seeker.

26 June 2002

Thales Airborne Systems and MBDA have agreed to pool their expertise in the development and production of anti-air missile seekers including the future beyond visual range air-to-air missile, Meteor.

Under the agreement, signed on 19 June in Paris by Gianni Bongianni, Director of MBDA's Seeker Division and Gerard Christmann, Thales Airborne Systems' Missile Electronics General Manager, both companies will produce the radar seekers for Aster, Mica and Meteor and jointly develop all upgrades and modifications.

Kanson · Post by **Kanson** » 21 Jul 2010 19:26

SSridhar wrote:India eyes Patriots & Javelins
The Patriot evaluation seems to have gone on silently.
ndia is evaluating the advanced Patriot ground-based air defence system for its ballistic missile shield and the US has provided 'classified' material to it on the weapon unit, which was successfully used during both Desert Storm and Operation Iraqi Freedom.

peaking about India interest in the Patriot ground-based air defence system, Joseph Garret, Vice President of the Raytheon's Patriot Programmes, said: "A number of exchanges have taken place between the government of India and the US and information has been given to India at the classified level."

Replying to questions, he said tests of the Patriot system, which has been procured by 12 countries, by India's Defence Research and Development Organisation and other agencies had been "highly successful".

On India developing its own missile defence shield, Garret said, "Patriot system gives a major boost to any country's defence capability. India may be developing its own system, but Patriot is a combat-proven weapon system."

Another senior official of Raytheon, a defence and aerospace major, said Washington and New Delhi have also discussed the issue of India-specific end-user accords.

"If the US government gives a go-ahead, Raytheon will step in," he said.

Taylor W Lawrence, President of Raytheon's Missile Systems, said India is also looking at the 'Javelin' anti-tank and anti-armour missile 'and a 'letter of intent' is expected to be issue soon.

"Javelin has been fully tested by the Indian land forces. We expect a letter of intent from the Indian government," he said.

From news reports, Indian Army showed interest in the PAC system. Before that when PAC-2 was offered, Pranab declined them. DRDO was interested in the sub systems. Behind the screen, there were/are lot of discussions/meetings went/going on. Recently it was reported India is planning to develop radar similar to AN/TPY-2. One wonders what is happening.

shyamd · Post by **shyamd** » 21 Jul 2010 20:45

IOL says India wants the Iron Dome system.

tsarkar · Post by **tsarkar** » 21 Jul 2010 21:42

Rohit, my PoV in the Indian Military Aviation thread, since its OT here.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 21 Jul 2010 21:54

tsarkar wrote:Austin,

All I am hearing is from Raytheon and Lockheed, no one from GoI has said anything.

However, GoI may have a motive - payback for 123. For example, I see no reason for Apache when LCH is going great and upgraded Mi-25/35 with Israeli systems will do great until 2015 when LCH enters service. Same for Chinook, C-17 and god knows what not.

tsarkar sahab , Right now there is no ABM system in place ( if one leaves aside the S-300 rumor ) , the Indian ABM system will take another 5 years to be fully tested and deployed * , which probably makes me think Dilli Billi will opt for PAC-3 system* which remains the only combat proven system though it has intercepted nothing more then Al-Samod ( < 300 km ) missile in GW 2 , still even in worst of the circumstances it remains combat deployed and combat tested.

* means its not going to work any ways for its intended role IMO but thats another story

darshan · Post by **darshan** » 22 Jul 2010 09:17

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=6f5_1256798993
Javelin Missile Firing At Exercise Yudh Abhyas 09

Any guess on total figure in USD that GoI will spend if they acquire this system?

VikB · Post by **VikB** » 22 Jul 2010 11:34

Knowledgable mullahs - what is a 'cruise missile formation' as shown here http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=6e0f843efd ?

negi · Post by **negi** » 22 Jul 2010 11:40

VikB is that link safe ?

VikB · Post by **VikB** » 22 Jul 2010 11:58

^^^ Boss no clue about the safety

Let me know if there is any threat, I have been merrily watching videos there ever since got the link to another news item from a previous post

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 24 Jul 2010 16:37

Software for BrahMos

Researchers at Thiagarajar College of Engineering here {Madurai} have been involved in developing enhanced software capability for the BrahMos missile. The researchers worked on the project for three years and the new software will be evaluated and implemented in future or advanced versions of the missile, according to Mr A. Sivathanu Pillai, Chief Controller (Research and Development), Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO). The software will help the missile ‘view' its target , by correlating the target with satellite images The project was funded by BrahMos Aerospace. Validation of the software will take place within a year, he said

dinesha · Post by **dinesha** » 25 Jul 2010 22:17

Final round preparation for test-firing of interceptor missile in Orissa
http://www.dnaindia.com/india/report_fi ... sa_1414326

nrshah · Post by **nrshah** » 26 Jul 2010 09:41

SSridhar wrote:Software for BrahMos
Quote:
.... The software will help the missile ‘view' its target , by correlating the target with satellite images The project was funded by BrahMos Aerospace. Validation of the software will take place within a year, he said

Is he talking of TERCOM/DSMAC guidance?

naird · Post by **naird** » 26 Jul 2010 10:52

Great News !!
http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/new ... 217915.cms

The target missile, a modified surface-to-surface 'Prithvi' was first lifted off from a mobile launcher at 10:05 am from the launch complex-3 of ITR at Chandipur-on-sea, 15 km from here.

The interceptor "AAD" missile, positioned at Wheeler Island, about 70 km across sea from Chandipur getting signals from radars tracked it a few minutes later and than intercepted at a definite altitude in the mid-air over the sea, the sources said.

aditp · Post by **aditp** » 26 Jul 2010 13:28

Look at the image here

Claims to be an official PTI image. Looks more like a UAV, and what launch vehicle is that, why are the tyres all white?

sum · Post by **sum** » 26 Jul 2010 14:44

aditp wrote:Look at the image here

Claims to be an official PTI image. Looks more like a UAV, and what launch vehicle is that, why are the tyres all white?

That is IN Styx ( costal defence battery) onlee, not a UAV.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 26 Jul 2010 14:58

The Patriot's performance was very patchy.Rather than buy Patriots,we should develop our own systems for ABM defence and look at the latest Russian versions of the S-400 far superior to Patriot. IN fact,let us beggar our neighbour by actually acquiring more Brahmos and other strike missiles instead! This is what the Russians threatened to do when the US planned to station ABMs in Poland.They said that they would defeat the missiles through saturation missile attacks.

Iron Dome is not really required by India,as it is especially designed to prevent the multiple rocket and mortar attacks fired into Israel,which has a very small land mass,where unguided rockets can cause large scale civilian damage.India is the size of a sub-continent and requires a continental holistic missile defence,with layers of anti-missile defences,from ABM systems ,cruise missile systems and anti-air./air launched munitions SAMs/PDMs.For this the sensors able to detect missiles fired into India are the prime requirement.We need sats to spot missile launches-ballistic and cruise,AWACS,long-endurance airships,aerostats,LR radars and a host fo localised radars defending bases,energy/industrial installations,key command centres and population centres.Even the most developed military nation,the US,cannot guarantee 100% success wth all the defences it has and has also embarked ABM SM-3 missiles aboard its major surface ships whcih the Japanese and Koreans are planning to acquire.

The famous saying "safety in numbers" is what India should remember and if Pak has say 100 strike missiles,we should have 4-5 times that of Pak,plus at least an equal number of what China possesses,as we have to dela with both nations as a single enemy entity.

arun · Post by **arun** » 26 Jul 2010 20:16

T.S. Subramanian and Y.S. Mallikarjun in the Hindu on today’s test launch of the AAD.

Reports that a “P-charge directional warhead”, whatever that is, was used for the first time in the AAD.

Also used in the AAD were electro-mechanical actuators and a ring-based gyro navigation system though the article is not clear if this was used for the first time:

Interceptor missile launch successful

nrshah · Post by **nrshah** » 28 Jul 2010 15:52

I was just going thru earlier reports of Akash Orders and Approval for MK 2 version...

I found payload of Akash very high compared to other SAM of the class... At 60kg it is almost twice as compared to other SAM

While this was primarily to mitigate the risk of missile being not as accurate by exploding a bigger warhead (I assume), considering it was our first project in SAM and also for limited anti ballastic role it was envisaged with it, we dont face the same situations now.. reasons - We are developing dedicated BMD and accuracy of missile has been proved beyond doubt (again my assumption based on large scale induction by IAF and IA)

Thus, i believe we can now do with a smaller warhead of say 25-30 Kg... This will reduce the overall weight of the missile and/or increase the range (dont know what incremental range will be)

can gurus shed light on my thoughts with respect to whether it is feasible and if yes what will be incremental range / how many kgs can be reduced?

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 28 Jul 2010 16:07

well the SA6 per wiki is weight 599kg and warhead 59kg. Akash is 720 kg and 60kg warhead per wiki. the patriot PAC2 is 700kg and carried a giant 90kg warhead.
but amazingly (whether due to some trajectory or better propellant its claimed max range is 150km, almost 6 times more than SA6/Akash.....perhaps this is due to a steep climb and coasting vs the 100% powered straight line engagement of the other two.

nrshah · Post by **nrshah** » 28 Jul 2010 16:15

Singha wrote:well the SA6 per wiki is weight 599kg and warhead 59kg. Akash is 720 kg and 60kg warhead per wiki. the patriot PAC2 is 700kg and carried a giant 90kg warhead.
but amazingly (whether due to some trajectory or better propellant its claimed max range is 150km, almost 6 times more than SA6/Akash.....perhaps this is due to a steep climb and coasting vs the 100% powered straight line engagement of the other two.

I purposefully excluded PAC missiles considering their purpose was missile defense rather than anti aircraft role... but i missed SA6 while posting my message...

However, given the warhead of 20-30 Kg in case of other SAMs and 15-25 kg in AAM (ASTRA has 15kg warhead as per WIKI), can't we reduce the warhead of Akash in MK2 which will help in increasing its range or reducing the weight (more missiles per vehicle)

nrshah · Post by **nrshah** » 28 Jul 2010 16:15

nrshah wrote:
SSridhar wrote:Software for BrahMos
Quote:
.... The software will help the missile ‘view' its target , by correlating the target with satellite images The project was funded by BrahMos Aerospace. Validation of the software will take place within a year, he said
Is he talking of TERCOM/DSMAC guidance?

Please guide

tsarkar · Post by **tsarkar** » 28 Jul 2010 16:46

Brahmos Block II land attack cruise missile uses Scene Correlation and Navigation (SCAN) SAR/ISAR mapping with false positives rejection for detecting target among similar clutter

This news report seems to be further development of the original SCAN algorithm.

The initial ground mapping is provided via http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RISAT-2 and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RISAT.

nrshah · Post by **nrshah** » 28 Jul 2010 17:30

^^^ thanks Tsarkar

Besides, what is the difference between the way SCAN and TERCOM/ DSMAC work?

My understanding is that they are more or less the same - Both has some preloaded pics of the area loaded into their
brains... Algorithm compares the same with pics taken during the flight and navigates itself.

The only difference that i can think of now is that whereas SCAN restricts the same to certain radius of target, DSMAC/TERCOM is for the entire flight path.

However, i sometime feel SCAN is the INDIAN term for TERCOM / DSMAC)