Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

ShauryaT · Post by **ShauryaT** » 13 Oct 2011 07:20

ramana wrote:Well was thinking of a dozen mini vehicles in clusters based on nags/astra in cluster being released against incoming.

The reentry vehicle distances involved could be quite significant and at high Mach. Nags/Astra based may not be sufficient for such a venture. Would cruise missiles be better, maybe a hypersonic Brahmos type, in this config? Just speculating.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 13 Oct 2011 07:48

the brahmos2 will probably look a lot different...the kind of shape used by scramjet demonstrators probably.

this make it difficult for fighter a/c to carry.

if it "forces" our hand to order 20 Tu160 so be it.

vasu_ray · Post by **vasu_ray** » 13 Oct 2011 08:03

AAD is optimized for ground launch
Astra is for air launch, given that it has the same speed as the AAD about Mach 4.5, its navigation can be programmed for BM intercept

however is a launch altitude of 15-20km from a fighter jet is sufficient for BM intercept? range shouldn't be an issue since the target area/city is covered by the fighter CAP

if only we had a demo for this endo-atmospheric intercept

Ground launched Brahmos booster currently pushes out 2 odd tons to cruise height, that payload capacity can put enough Astras to even cover salvo BM attacks

ShauryaT · Post by **ShauryaT** » 13 Oct 2011 08:06

Singha wrote: this make it difficult for fighter a/c to carry.

The carrying is to be done by SRB type vehicles not fighter aircrafts for BMD purposes. I guess aircrafts would be too slow for the purpose.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 13 Oct 2011 10:24

the F-15 in american service used to field a ASAT weapon. no idea if any experiments with launching BM interceptors have been done.

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 13 Oct 2011 10:31

I recall a recent report somewhere that the Khans were thinking of using AAMRAM seekers for a deploy able boost phase intercept solution.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 13 Oct 2011 10:43

they are working on it...must be nearing IOC by now if funding was maintained:

http://www.defensenews.com/story.php?i=3457386

KiranM · Post by **KiranM** » 13 Oct 2011 12:01

Several mini AADs form the upper stage of a PAD like vehicle. PAD has a radar or lidar that detects incoming MIRVs and assign targets to each AAD. At required time AADs will undergo stage separation with its motor already engaged or 'fired'.

Kanson · Post by **Kanson** » 13 Oct 2011 23:08

FWIW, k-15 was flown at 20 km, 40 & 50 km as reported by the media.

Kanson · Post by **Kanson** » 14 Oct 2011 07:11

So far, none of the commentators, column writers, ghost writers, analysts, opinion makers commented on low altitude profile of the Shourya/K-15 missile. So I'm forced to point it out. While Shourya was reported to be repeatedly flown at 50 km altitude, Naval version K-15 was more often flown at lower altitudes.

The missile's first stage will then ignite and it will climb 20 km in the air before cutting a parabolic path and travelling over a range of 700 km.

Although hypersonic missiles fly at high altitudes, what makes Shourya different is that it can fly at low altitudes. For instance, Agni variants flew at 100 km, 200 km or 500 km altitudes, reaching even Mach 15. “But Shourya flies at a relatively low altitude, even reaching Mach 6. This is the crux of the matter in terms of technology development,” Saraswat said.

Kanson · Post by **Kanson** » 14 Oct 2011 07:26

As someone enquired on canister material,

http://livefist.blogspot.com/2010/07/ph ... for-k.html

Just got this photograph of the R-Glass composite canister for the K-15 Sagarika submarine launched missile (officially, Programme B-05). It's a four-layered thermal protected canister, presumably for India's prospective Arihant-class SSBNs.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 14 Oct 2011 07:33

wow 20km is onlee around 65,000ft....a height at which some fighters can fly....I hope its mach6 speed gives it protection because the bigger SAMs these days reach up to 100,000ft.

it sounds like a ideal foil to the brahmos in launching attacks using EMP & HE devices on enemy radar network sites. if the big S-300/400 radars can be taken out, IAF enjoys a much easier time.

Cain Marko · Post by **Cain Marko** » 14 Oct 2011 08:05

^ I'd assume a degree of manouverability and rcs treatment would make interception difficult. Otherwise, interception for a S300-400 type does not seem improbable. The hypersonic Brahmos otoh, might go in real low and that might make all the difference.

CM

tsarkar · Post by **tsarkar** » 14 Oct 2011 08:59

Kanson wrote:So far, none of the commentators, column writers, ghost writers, analysts, opinion makers commented on low altitude profile of the Shourya/K-15 missile....

For both land and sea launched missiles, the profile can be shaped, ie conventional ballistic trajectory or a depressed hypersonic trajectory. And as for the Chinese jingoism on ASBM, Shourya offers the better capabilities.

Atleast in strategic missile category, I believe we're qualitatively superior to the Chinese.

Do note that A Q Khan's "labs" cannot come up anything better than North Korean/Chinese alms, and in the last 5 years, have not shown an iota of improvement over the Ghori or Shaheen. Our ABM program needs to stay only on top of these jokers and they're effectively neutered.

Jamal K. Malik · Post by **Jamal K. Malik** » 14 Oct 2011 13:27

Starship enterprise: Data Patterns is harnessing opportunities created by modernisation of India's defence sector

When an advanced version of Brah-Mos, a stealth supersonic cruise missile, was successfully test fired by the Indian Army in August this year at the Pokhran range in Rajasthan, a small company in Chennai, Data Patterns, helped it blast-off and hit the bullseye. Data Patterns has developed an indigenous launch computer and other systems that help the missile to automatically carry out a sequence of logical mission operations.

The missile can travel at nearly three times the speed of sound and hit targets up to 300 km away. BrahMos Aerospace, the $300-million joint venture between India and Russia, has opened up huge business opportunities for small hi-tech companies such as Data Patterns.

The company's founder and managing director S Rangarajan said they have executed projects worth .`100 crore for missile development. The company reached its major inflection point a few years ago, when it bagged a contract to develop fire control or launcher system for BrahMos, which is named after India's Brahmaputra River and Russia's Moskva River.

"We competed along with the big boys such as Tata, Larsen & Toubro and major public sector units. We won the contract because of the niche technology we had developed," says Rangarajan, a former state level table tennis champion.

The missile can carry a conventional warhead weighing 200 to 300 kgs. It can be launched from submarines, ships, aircraft or land.

With annual revenues of over Rs 100 crore and 500 employees, the firm counts Indian Space Research Organisation (Isro) and the Defence Research and Development Organisation and many PSUs among its top customers. It has contracts worth .`150 crore in the pipeline.

"I am extremely pleased with the progress Data Patterns has made over the years. An excellent facility, dedicated team and a visionary management is what I have seen here. It is a right combination to achieve success," said a top DRDO official who did not wish to be identified.

However, it was not easy for Rangarajan, an alumnus of IIT-Madras, to crack the defence market. After a stint at technology major IDM, Rangarajan started Data Patterns in 1985 from a small rented room, with just Rs 11,000. The firm intially made scientific instruments and labaratory equipments.

Being a small hi-tech product company, it was difficult for Data Patterns to compete against imported systems. The tide changed when it bagged a project to make indigenous test equipment for Isro, which it had to buy from foreign countries.

Since the beginning of the first contract, Data Patterns has successfully built the launch count down system for the space agency.

This system continuously monitors the health of onboard equipments inside launch vehicles during the 48-hour countdown of the space missions and the data is sent to launch consoles in real time.

The firm has moved up the value chain by diversifying into electronic warfare systems, microwave defence systems, radars, hardware and software for airborne vehicles. These include key systems that enable the launch of other powerful missiles such as Akash, Nirbhay, Prithvi and rockets of Isro.

tejas · Post by **tejas** » 14 Oct 2011 15:56

These include key systems that enable the launch of other powerful missiles such as Akash, Nirbhay, Prithvi and rockets of Isro.

Inshallah more companies like this can prosper as you cannot buy security from abroad. Also never saw a reference to Nirbhay being launched before.

darshhan · Post by **darshhan** » 14 Oct 2011 19:17

Cain Marko wrote:^ I'd assume a degree of manouverability and rcs treatment would make interception difficult. Otherwise, interception for a S300-400 type does not seem improbable. The hypersonic Brahmos otoh, might go in real low and that might make all the difference.

CM

Cain Marko ji , Even after RCS reduction management , hypersonic Brahmos would have a large RCS until unless DRDO comes up with something real revolutionary.I will try to explain.When an aircraft/missile is travelling at hypersonic speeds , the aircraft/missile skin temperature becomes very high.Because of this thermal effect on skin both the radar signature and Infrared signature will be very large.This is exactly what used to happen in SR-71's case.While it was not a true stealth aircraft like F-117 , its frame was designed for RCS reduction(Probably the first aircraft to do so).But because of its extremely high speeds it showed very prominently on radars.For more information.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lockheed_S ... _avoidance

The SR-71 was the first operational aircraft designed around a stealthy shape and materials. There were a number of features in the SR-71 that were designed to reduce its radar signature. The first studies in radar stealth technology seemed to indicate that a shape with flattened, tapering sides would avoid reflecting most radar energy toward the radar beams' place of origin. To this end, the radar engineers suggested adding chines to the design and canting the vertical control surfaces inward. The aircraft also used special radar-absorbing materials which were incorporated into sawtooth shaped sections of the skin of the aircraft, as well as cesium-based fuel additives to reduce the exhaust plumes' visibility on radar. Despite these efforts, the SR-71 was still easily detected on radar while traveling at speed due to its large exhaust stream and air heated by the body (large thermal gradients in the atmosphere are detectable with radar). The SR-71's radar cross section (RCS) of almost 10 square meters[29] was much greater than the later F-117's RCS, which is similar to that of a small ball bearing.[30]

The overall effectiveness of these designs is still debated; Ben Rich's team could show that the radar return was, in fact, reduced, but Kelly Johnson later conceded that Russian radar technology was advancing faster than the "anti-radar" technology Lockheed was using to counter it.[31] The SR-71 made its debut years before Pyotr Ya. Ufimtsev's ground-breaking research made possible today's stealth technologies, and, despite Lockheed's best efforts, the SR-71 was still easy to track by radar and had a huge infrared signature when cruising at Mach 3.2 or more. It was visible on radar since air traffic control tracked it when not using its transponder,[32] and missiles were often fired at the aircraft.

Keep in mind that Brahmos-2 will be travelling at atleast twice the speed of SR-71.Now think of challenges that DRDO will have to overcome in reducing the active RCS of this missiles.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 14 Oct 2011 20:34

imo if a Mach6 shourya chooses to travel @ 60,000ft , a distributed radar system that sees it coming well in time could trigger the launch of "big SAMS" of the S300 type which have a max slant range of ceiling 100,000ft an slant range of around 150km iirc. if the Shourya were flying within such cones, it could be targeted because at Mach6 it is essentially flying in a straight line.

if it however chooses to fly at around 100,000-150,000ft though it could be detected earlier, interception by SAMs is pretty much not possible at today technology.

sivab · Post by **sivab** » 15 Oct 2011 00:05

Singha wrote:if the Shourya were flying within such cones, it could be targeted because at Mach6 it is essentially flying in a straight line.

IMO, it will move in random zigzag fashion to defeat missile defences. Shourya's second stage is a slow burn motor that burns at a rate of ~4.3mm/sec and is long enough to maneuver for entire flight. I think all strategic Indian missiles with possibly the exception of older Agni I and II, do this.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 15 Oct 2011 00:47

why move the mountain to mohammad?

have either a RAM coat or a zig-zag deflectors sandwiched composite casing the missiles..

we are talking only two minutes here to destruction.

sudeepj · Post by **sudeepj** » 15 Oct 2011 02:03

Singha wrote:imo if a Mach6 shourya chooses to travel @ 60,000ft , a distributed radar system that sees it coming well in time could trigger the launch of "big SAMS" of the S300 type which have a max slant range of ceiling 100,000ft an slant range of around 150km iirc. if the Shourya were flying within such cones, it could be targeted because at Mach6 it is essentially flying in a straight line.

if it however chooses to fly at around 100,000-150,000ft though it could be detected earlier, interception by SAMs is pretty much not possible at today technology.

As per my very limited understanding, ABM missiles work by reducing the relative speed at which the two projectiles are closing. If the interception is head on, the relative speeds will be too high for the interceptor to reliably bring down the target. By going in a straight line, Shaurya increases the relative speed at which an interceptor will have to close with the missile and is hence more difficult to intercept. Of course its a race between the sword and the shield, and no one tech. can hope to have an upper hand for a long time.

Kanson · Post by **Kanson** » 15 Oct 2011 04:28

Mach 6 speed quoted for S-300 systems is for a brief period. It is neither its average or intercepting speed. Trying to intercept Shourya missile with S-300 is like firing AAA guns to intercept fighters (not bombers). You may have a very small aperture of opportunity, one chance, if Shourya flies directly over the SAM site in a straight line. You can try to setup an ambush by selecting possible routes and arranging SAM systems through its path. Well you are going to experience surprise of your lifetime. How many times you try or how hard you try, Shourya won't fly through that path.

Further it is reported, measures are taken to give least possible radar imprint of that missile in all its flight envelope. How? You must have heard that Brahmos missile has its own ECCM gear. What is not much publicized is that every missile(* conditions apply) whether Ballistic or Cruise in our arsenal has its own Situational awareness and EW gear. It selects its path in such a way to give least possible RCS. In short, technically, we should call our Ballistic/Cruise missile as Exceptionally Ultra Long Range SAM.

Because it behaves like one.

BTW, S-300? what? who? where? in this world?

Saraswat said: “There are many features in this missile that reduce its radar cross-section to very low values, ensuring that under no phase of its trajectory, Shourya can be detected by state-of-the-art radars

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 15 Oct 2011 04:57

I am guessing that head on would be the best way to intercept this missile but even with a well defended target if the missile appears like it is bypassing that target and then maneuvers to turn at the target from just 15 km away - the time available to intercept will be ~10 seconds. Not easy.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 15 Oct 2011 05:05

BR always leads the way?:

Exceptionally Ultra Long Range SAM

(Near?) boost phase applicability too?

vasu_ray · Post by **vasu_ray** » 15 Oct 2011 06:47

Couple of years back, DRDO complained that the US refused import of materials needed for the scram jet engine forcing it as usual to the local development route

They also said that they achieved a 20s scram jet performance, and were planning to repeat it for another 20s as well as establishing high mach wind tunnels for such purposes, five or six more tests and they will be ready for flight testing

Now with the Shaurya sustaining hypersonic speeds even at lower altitudes, did they develop the needed materials or the intakes and internals of the scram jet engine experience even higher temperatures than a aerodynamic and rolling missile body like Shaurya?

they could attach the scram jet engine to the Shaurya and flight test it without ever releasing it from the missile body and collect it by a parachute at the end of a flight, (the US has lost so many prototypes flying them alone) once they achieve stable flights they can have the scram jet fly on its own

Prem · Post by **Prem** » 15 Oct 2011 06:53

So Basically IM are intelligent Missiles unlike the simple Dumbos of earlier generations .

PratikDas · Post by **PratikDas** » 15 Oct 2011 08:30

vasu_ray wrote: they could attach the scram jet engine to the Shaurya and flight test it without ever releasing it from the missile body and collect it by a parachute at the end of a flight, (the US has lost so many prototypes flying them alone) once they achieve stable flights they can have the scram jet fly on its own

ISRO: Successful flight testing of advanced sounding rocket

Another close-up image from a different angle.

Advanced Technology Vehicle (ATV-D01), weighing 3 tonnes at lift-off is the heaviest sounding rocket ever developed by ISRO. It carried a passive scramjet engine combustor module as a test bed for demonstration of Air- Breathing propulsion technology.

During the flight, the vehicle successfully dwelled for 7 seconds in the desired conditions of Mach number (6 + 0.5) and dynamic pressure (80 + 35 kPa). These conditions are required for a stable ignition of active scramjet engine combustor module planned in the next flight of ATV.

The successful flight testing of ATV-D01 is a step ahead towards the advanced technology initiative taken up by ISRO in the area of Air- Breathing propulsion.

vasu_ray · Post by **vasu_ray** » 15 Oct 2011 09:39

^^^

Thanks Pratik, yes aware of ISRO's first step, wonder if they still have it as priority when they have bigger fish to fry

Also, we do have two streams the RLV-TD and the Avatar, with the latter hopefully DRDO takes the first step as well using Shaurya as its host vehicle

PratikDas · Post by **PratikDas** » 15 Oct 2011 11:47

vasu_ray wrote:^^^

Thanks Pratik, yes aware of ISRO's first step, wonder if they still have it as priority when they have bigger fish to fry

Also, we do have two streams the RLV-TD and the Avatar, with the latter hopefully DRDO takes the first step as well using Shaurya as its host vehicle

Actually, implicit in my silent post was the fact that this test happened 1.5 years ago. I find it very hard to believe they haven't tried to light that candle again to test sustained thrust.

Kanson · Post by **Kanson** » 15 Oct 2011 19:46

NRao wrote:(Near?) boost phase applicability too?

Yes, that is going to happen.

arun · Post by **arun** » 18 Oct 2011 21:49

With the Agni V launch coming up an interesting slide from a July 2010 presentation by Dr. Bharat Gopalaswamy of SIPRI on the increasing demands in terms of flight altitude, re-entry velocity, maximum deceleration and heat absorption as ballistic missile range increases:

From here:

Clicky

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 19 Oct 2011 00:12

Well the threats are getting farther and that needs those attributes. BTW interesting slide about TOT!

Did you note the sounding station in the A-V splash zone?

Varoon Shekhar · Post by **Varoon Shekhar** » 19 Oct 2011 07:56

[quote="arun"]With the Agni V launch coming up an interesting slide from a July 2010 presentation by Dr. Bharat Gopalaswamy of SIPRI on the increasing demands in terms of flight altitude, re-entry velocity, maximum deceleration and heat absorption as ballistic missile range increases:

SIPRI often makes derogatory or critical remarks about India( and doubtless other developing countries) related to its defense programmes. If they feel they or anyone else cannot halt India's efforts in developing strategic technologies, the next course of action is to denigrate the achievements around those programmes. And the rationale for having those technologies in the first place. They are even presumptuous enough to dismiss India's concerns about China, as if China were next door to Sweden, not India! I once had a little 'exchange' with a fellow Eric Arnett of SIPRI, and I told him, it's for Indians to decide what security concerns India has about China, or any country, not for your organisation sitting in Stockholm, Sweden.

With a name like "Peace" research institute, you would think they would be far more humanistic and universalistic on the question of disarmament and peace, as opposed to ultra-technical. One doesn't expect "flower children" as in the 1960's, but neither does one expect caustic and derogatory remarks about a country's capabilities and its concerns.

merlin · Post by **merlin** » 19 Oct 2011 10:57

ramana wrote:Well the threats are getting farther and that needs those attributes. BTW interesting slide about TOT!

Did you note the sounding station in the A-V splash zone?

Did you see the SLV3 = Agni contention? Shades of the good Dr. Hoyt defending the original idiot who made that assertion. Wonder what it is about Indians who deliberately spread misinformation about India when they work for foreign entities with an agenda of capping Indian progress on all fronts?

dinesha · Post by **dinesha** » 19 Oct 2011 12:07

Agni V test depends on prime success
http://ibnlive.in.com/news/agni-v-test- ... 0-117.html

BALASORE: The failed mission of December 2010 in mind, scientists pin much hope on the success of test-flight of Agni-II Prime, expected to be conducted on November 10. A smooth test would mean first trial of India’s most powerful and longest range Agni-V missile, scheduled in December.

The Defence Research Development Organisation (DRDO) is planning to test-fire the surface-to-surface nuclear-capable Agni-II Prime from the Wheelers Island near Dhamra. Spade-work for the indigenously built intermediate range ballistic missile has started. The project team from Hyderabad will arrive on October 28 to oversee the final preparations. Usually, a missile is tested after the mission team gets the nod from the Launch Authorisation Board (LAB) of the DRDO and the Cabinet Committee on Security (CCS). An official said if the scientists get green signal from the board and the CCS as per the programme, the missile will definitely blast off on the scheduled date.

“Agni-V, capable of hitting targets at a distance of 5,000 km, would derive most of its sub-systems from Agni-II Prime though they would need sufficient scaling. Besides, there is a plan to develop Agni-IV as an intermediate step between Agni-III and Agni-V,” said a defence scientist. The maiden test of Agni-II Prime was a failure with the missile deviating from the trajectory soon after takeoff. Instead of attaining the desired altitude, the missile plunged down just after a flight of 30 seconds as no stage separation occurred midway.

Sources said this project was handled by a bunch of young scientists and this time they will leave no stone unturned to make the mission a success. Or else, it will be difficult for the DRDO to get the green signal for Agni-V.

Marut · Post by **Marut** » 19 Oct 2011 12:26

Check the slide about the components of ballistic missiles in that SIPRI presentation

The pindigeniously 'developed' Ghauri with a shiny red tip

Sathish_A · Post by **Sathish_A** » 19 Oct 2011 14:18

Wait a minute...this guy Dr. Bharat Gopalaswamy is a Indian by heart turned paki later for his career needs. I know him since engineering days.

He started off as typical SDRE with strict adherence to tradiation and culture on his first academic stint abroad. So much so that he refused to eat Onion and Garlic.

8 years later, I was shocked to see him sipping beer with gori wimmens......all signs of TFTAness.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 19 Oct 2011 14:45

http://www.sassu.org.uk/html/bharat_gopalswamy.htm

sounds like he was a techie who decided on the easier route of being a analyst and think tanker, and think deep thoughts rather than get anything done.

> He is also a visiting reseacher at the South Asian Strategic Stability Institute, London.

has the odor of a HMG+paki funded dept. staff is 90% paki including a ex-PA brigadier.
http://www.sassu.org.uk/html/staff.htm

Neela · Post by **Neela** » 19 Oct 2011 14:56

Singha wrote:http://www.sassu.org.uk/html/bharat_gopalswamy.htm

sounds like he was a techie who decided on the easier route of being a analyst and think tanker, and think deep thoughts rather than get anything done.

> He is also a visiting reseacher at the South Asian Strategic Stability Institute, London.

has the odor of a HMG+paki funded dept. staff is 90% paki including a ex-PA brigadier.
http://www.sassu.org.uk/html/staff.htm

OT but the logo of the South Asian Sissy whatever has a map with no shit1stan!

Sathish_A · Post by **Sathish_A** » 19 Oct 2011 15:30

Vermins latest location and stint...As stated he moves on to sustain his career and ever heard of Chameleon

http://acdis.illinois.edu/aboutacdis/pr ... ml&pid=299