Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby tejas » 12 Aug 2010 07:02

There is nothing to prevent India from covertly extending the range of Brahmos. Hopefully they have done so already. Russia is a signatory to this 4 letter treaty and thus no help can be expected ( at least overtly) from them.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby jaladipc » 12 Aug 2010 08:28

To fellow members :

Unfortunately I cant provide the link to my previous post as I received it as a CC through email.

It will certainly show up in an online news portal very soon.

Since I only put the important part while ignoring the other content I realized to mention the name of the missile would be a right decision.

It is a variant of the much touted shourya.In short a conventional variant onlee for surgical strike roles.Again I am confirming the type of the mizzile as a pure hypersonic cruise mizzile( as i was informed so),but not a quasi ballistic or something something else.The only difference is it travels at a much higher altitude( 25-40km ) than a conventional cruise missile and uses a different propulsion instead of a turbofan/turbojet/ramjet/scramjet.
Folks can still expect further refinement in the missile for a pure anti-ship role in the near future.the advantage sought from this hypersonic variant is its devastating speed in surgical role.Will act as a fabulous bunker buster( you know where this one finds its utmost usage :) ),given the speed and warhead .

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby sanjaykumar » 12 Aug 2010 09:37

The missile will be exported to friendly countries

Yeah, Vietnam, Mongolia, Japan and the US :wink:

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby Kanson » 12 Aug 2010 09:47

hnair wrote: er, IIRC he always mentioned it as the first "true multi-purpose strategic missile platform" in the world (or some such thing). Meaning it can be used for a lot of purposes, including I assumed at that time, as a post-PAD first stage too.


Sirji, my thoughts on the multi-purpose missile platform:

You know, we Indian always do juggad to increase the usability of the objects for years and decades. Right from utilizing yesterday's prepared food to preserving the old Victorian era clock to extending the life of CANDU reactors to the aircraft carrier Viraat you can see that jugaad.

Same way in the area of developing missiles too our designers tried to increase the usability in all the platforms developed by make it as multi-purpose. You know that Trishul is not only envisaged as tri-service SAM but also as Air to Surface missile - a true multi-purpose platform. When Maitri joins the Services, it will be a tri-service weapon. Prithvi , a tri-service with different warheads for conventional and also acts as strategic weapon with additional capabilities as Anti-ship missile and PAD with necessary modification - again a true multi-purpose platform. Same as Prithvi, Agni-3, latest variant of Agni, supports both conventional and strategic payload. It could act as both Counter-Force and Counter-Value missile with modifications it also can do the role of ASAT and SLV - another true multi-purpose missile. Same can be said about Brahmos and Shourya which is a cousin of Brahmos. So we have many true multi-purpose missile platform and will be having such platform in the future.

Uniqueness of the Shourya is in its form-factor.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby Kanson » 12 Aug 2010 09:53

jaladipc wrote:
It is a variant of the much touted shourya.In short a conventional variant onlee for surgical strike roles.Again I am confirming the type of the mizzile as a pure hypersonic cruise mizzile( as i was informed so),but not a quasi ballistic or something something else.The only difference is it travels at a much higher altitude( 25-40km ) than a conventional cruise missile and uses a different propulsion instead of a turbofan/turbojet/ramjet/scramjet.


FWIW, the missile was tested at the altitude of ~20km, ~40km and 50km. These are the three tests that was mentioned in your post.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby Singha » 12 Aug 2010 10:03

40km altitude would put it beyond the 100,000ft mark which is the max ceiling of the biggest conventional SAMs around in sa400 family(30km). the PAC3 has a ceiling of only 15km - 45000ft. SM2 - 65000-80,000ft. the SM2-TBMD version is claimed as 33km.

so a 40km cruising phase would be immune from interception by SAMs until it descends below 30km.

only dedicated stuff like thaad (150km ceiling) can try for it....that too if its flying up vertically...in the usual slanted firing it will run out
of its 200km range much before it reaches 150km ceiling...realistically around 50-75km in slant mode. same goes for the SAMs, .... realistically around 15-20km max in slanted mode.

a shourya cruising hypersonic at 40km is today immune to almost anything on earth. assuming range as 600km , it can use first 100km in friendly territory to reach that safe height and minimize the danger area at other end by diving almost vertically once over target region.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby Austin » 12 Aug 2010 10:39

The newer capable SAM should be capable of effectively dealing with Shourya , although she cruises at 40 - 50 km the missile will have to drop to lower altitude when hitting the target , at that time Shourya will become vulnerable to area defence sam like PAC-3 , S-300 PMU2 , S-400 , AAD all capable of dealing with hypersonic target.

Shourya strength lies in she is a small target , can provide little early warning time to EW BM radar and travels very fast but she travels in the middle atmosphere and the modern Tracking and FC Radar of newer SAM will have no problem tracking her for long and then chalking an intercept path.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby Singha » 12 Aug 2010 10:56

thats why I said dive vertically rather than glide down in a shallow path. that way, unless the SAM is sited right at the target , it will expend its range from elsewhere making the T-shaped intercept. radars can track , but without a weapon that can reach the shourya in time, all they can do is pass the info to target area to hunker down.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby Austin » 12 Aug 2010 11:44

Well the way SAM works is they defend a specific area say x by x km by multiple overlapping radar and sam sites and form a protective bubble , any thing within that bubble is a high probability of kill for the SAM any thing outside is probability of intercept is lower

If Shaurya manages to say dive vertically and maintains a hypersonic speed of say Mach 6 ( 2 km/sec ) to cover 30 km 40 km or 50 km depending at which altitude it does a sudden dive for the target she will take out it will take any where between 15 to 25 seconds to reach the target from those altitude and speed

Since Shourya travels at a nice altitude where radar can see her long they will be computing the intercept point and couple of SAM will already be in the air if they are defending the specific area (bubble) travelling between Mach 5 to 7 towards the intercept point of the target , even if Shourya does a unexpected sudden dive a 15 sec time is good enough for sam like S-300 PMU2/PAC-3/AAD to compute the intercept point and be in air , 3 seconds for PMU-2

Even our own AAD is suppose to defend a BM with a range of 2000 km or a speed of ~ 2.5- 3 km per sec at an altitude of 15 to 30 km Shourya still travels at lower 2 km/sec best case , so if it is within AAD protective bubble the probability of intercept is high . AAD still has a lower speed to intercept (Mach 4 ) compared to something like S-300PMU2 which travels at hypersonic speed between Mach 5 and 7

If it is in the protective bubble of THAAD or S-400 Big Missile which have an altitude of interception above 40 km then the probability of interception of Shourya it its hypersonic glide phase is high.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby Manish_Sharma » 12 Aug 2010 11:49

Austin wrote:The newer capable SAM should be capable of effectively dealing with Shourya , although she cruises at 40 - 50 km the missile will have to drop to lower altitude when hitting the target , at that time Shourya will become vulnerable to area defence sam like PAC-3 , S-300 PMU2 , S-400 , AAD all capable of dealing with hypersonic target.

Shourya strength lies in she is a small target , can provide little early warning time to EW BM radar and travels very fast but she travels in the middle atmosphere and the modern Tracking and FC Radar of newer SAM will have no problem tracking her for long and then chalking an intercept path.


For that the SAM has to be right under it, no? if the SAM battery is on Kashmir border and Shourya is falling vertically on chhagai hills, what time sams may have to get it?

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby Austin » 12 Aug 2010 12:12

Manish_Sharma wrote:For that the SAM has to be right under it, no? if the SAM battery is on Kashmir border and Shourya is falling vertically on chhagai hills, what time sams may have to get it?


No it need not be right under it , it has within SAM protective bubble , each sam has its own protective bubble where it is known to be effective and it defends the area within its protective bubble.

And we are not talking of TSP here they hardly have any worth while sam , Shourya is an over kill.

Dont assume SAM is fired only when the target is falling down or when it is coming within its protective bubble , most of the time it is in the air and trying to reach a computed intercept point where the target is predicted to be that is how a ABM system works and have long range radar which compliments that.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby Arya Sumantra » 12 Aug 2010 12:14

Austin wrote:even if Shourya does a unexpected sudden dive a 15 sec time is good enough for sam like S-300 PMU2/PAC-3/AAD to compute the intercept point and be in air


Not if the vertical dive is not a straight line but say a spiral down or unpredictable zig-zag. Although it could still be knocked out but whatever adds more unpredictability. Besides even if a vertical dive is successfully intercepted it still does not mean the target directly below will be spared completely from effects of warhead detonation if a warhead is triggered by impact

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby Singha » 12 Aug 2010 12:30

everytime a missile turns, the tracking radar has to compute its expected new path and send commands to missile to change course, which bleeds the missiles energy - missile is climbing, shourya is falling at mach6. introducing a random serious of turns will make the interception pk less.

but trick is how to turn a missle at mach6? fins wont work I think, esp of the tiny shourya/brahmos type. some type of "cold/hot gas thruster tech" firing sideways ?

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby Arya Sumantra » 12 Aug 2010 12:50

Singha wrote:but trick is how to turn a missle at mach6? fins wont work I think, esp of the tiny shourya/brahmos type. some type of "cold/hot gas thruster tech" firing sideways ?


Perhaps by movement of internally located weights OR some feedback-rotatable gymballed weights thereby shifting the CG of the missile. But such methods would ofcourse add to the weight of missile because you are carrying dead-weights capable of shifting the CG of the system. But the system weight is itself reducing as the stages of missile are being discarded. Such method though will reduce warhead payload carrying capacity.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby nrshah » 12 Aug 2010 13:05

uses a different propulsion instead of a turbofan/turbojet/ramjet/scramjet.


What sort of propulsion is this? Any enlightened guess from Gurus?

It will become interesting if the Shaurya has a mechanism of dropping altitude in say last 100 / 200 Kms of its 2100 claimed range where it will cruise at high supersonic / hypersonic speed of say M 2.5 - 4 just like moskit / sunburn... That will further complicate the task of interception...

Besides, One of the recent Bramhos test said that missile maneuvered at high supersonic speed with flight engine on.. Probably, that was the building block to validate the tech no make missile maneuver at high supersonic / hypersonic speeds..

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby Manish_Sharma » 12 Aug 2010 13:08

Beautifully explained here:

http://www.india-forum.com/forums/index.php?/topic/2357-indian-missile-news-and-discussion/page__st__460

Regarding ABM resistance, worth factoring the following:

1. For a BGRV type hypersonic craft that is flying in complex trajectory toward a group of probable cluster of targets, no radar network can compute what is in the mind of the Shourya's computer (need a psychic's service) ; so forget about firing a SAM to take it down.

2. SAMS are not launched in air waiting for target (like fighter cap). They have a very small kill box that better be accurately projected in time - space.

3. BGRV type hypersonic craft can pull sustained G > 100, coupled with INS guideline/control it can pull the most unpredictable trajectory to its chosen target.

4. Even for Prayduman or AAD it will be very difficult to take on BGRV type target. Forget about S300, S400 style interceptors whose G rate is limited.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby Singha » 12 Aug 2010 13:10

> BGRV type hypersonic craft can pull sustained G > 100

wow. I believe even python5 type aam are limited to 45G. is G-load a factor of high speed too?

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby Klaus » 12 Aug 2010 13:12

Singha wrote:
but trick is how to turn a missle at mach6? fins wont work I think, esp of the tiny shourya/brahmos type. some type of "cold/hot gas thruster tech" firing sideways ?


How about retractable fins, similar in form to the folding wing of aircraft carrier based fighters? These fins could be used in the last 8-10 seconds prior to impact with target, this also maximises destruction of Shourya's target due to more flying shrapnel.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby Singha » 12 Aug 2010 13:42

I am afraid any sharp moves have to start 100-200km away from target because thats the strong AD/TBMD bubble. roughly lets take mach6=6000kmph , implies 1.66km/sec. so 120 sec of dance time.

not sure if fins will work when deployed or get torn off by the air speed or how much wing area would be needed. perhaps best way is some kind of 'set of vanes' in the engine exhaust that steers it like a AAM does. used only for that 2 mins cycle.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby Austin » 12 Aug 2010 14:37

This is a fight of wit or bluff between a BM developer and a SAM/ABM developer , if you ask a Russian BM developer or a DRDO scientist he would say his BM/Cruise missile is capable of defeating any known ABM defence.

On the contrary if you ask a ABM developer be it Almaz , IAI , Lockheed or DRDO they would tell your their ABM system is capable of defeating sophisticated BM.

Both the BM and ABM developer have some trick up their sleeve and they would probably show things in a way that promotes their product best.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby svinayak » 12 Aug 2010 14:39

Singha wrote:I am afraid any sharp moves have to start 100-200km away from target because thats the strong AD/TBMD bubble. roughly lets take mach6=6000kmph , implies 1.66km/sec. so 120 sec of dance time.

not sure if fins will work when deployed or get torn off by the air speed or how much wing area would be needed. perhaps best way is some kind of 'set of vanes' in the engine exhaust that steers it like a AAM does. used only for that 2 mins cycle.

Some source describe how the glide path of the RV takes a sharp turn into a flat trajectory at altitude of 40km or above. Photos are shown in some books of the heat signature of the glide path.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby D Roy » 12 Aug 2010 17:04

some type of "cold/hot gas thruster tech" firing sideways ?



Yes I think there is every possibility of that. Remember in Brahmos vertical launch videos we have seen similar stuff.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby negi » 12 Aug 2010 18:58

Shaurya during the terminal phase of its descent will be unpowered so to maintain a respectable CEP figure while traveling at hypersonic speed it can afford to maneuver only so much . Whatever evading maneuvers it might do will have to be executed before the second stage is expended.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby Hari Seldon » 12 Aug 2010 19:55

Not if the vertical dive is not a straight line but say a spiral down or unpredictable zig-zag. Although it could still be knocked out but whatever adds more unpredictability. Besides even if a vertical dive is successfully intercepted it still does not mean the target directly below will be spared completely from effects of warhead detonation if a warhead is triggered by impact


Which is why it is critical that shourya's 're-entry' (if singha's description of a near-vertical kill run could be termed that) needs to be equipped not just with zig-zag matazz but also some kinda MIRV capability....imagine the warheads itself splitting into 6-8 petals (with another 6-8 high rcs decoys) 20 secs to impact point...?

/OK, I'm way out of my depth in these hallowed threads. Pls to pardon if my hyperimaginative 'contribution' comes across as utterly ridiculous. Only.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby hnair » 12 Aug 2010 23:57

Kanson-saar, the way you explained "multi-purpose" is not what IMO, Arun_S-saar meant. But this conversation is getting boring on that front, what with him not being around to enlighten us with his valuable insights, that I personally appreciate highly. :)

Kanson wrote: So we have many true multi-purpose missile platform and will be having such platform in the future.

Uniqueness of the Shourya is in its form-factor.


What do you mean by the form factor?

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby VinodTK » 13 Aug 2010 04:36

Expanding India’s Nuclear Options

This is illustrated by theannouncement last week of a new Agni II missile in development with a projected range of 2,750-3,000km. The reach of this missile sits between the present Agni-II model and the Agni-III, with a range of 3,500km. The new Agni-II missile program has been revealed not long after the announcement of the development of an Agni-V model, the first Indian ICBM, with a projected range of 5,000-6,000km.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby Kanson » 16 Aug 2010 19:05

hnair wrote:Kanson-saar, the way you explained "multi-purpose" is not what IMO, Arun_S-saar meant. But this conversation is getting boring on that front, what with him not being around to enlighten us with his valuable insights, that I personally appreciate highly. :)

I can understand that. :wink: OTOH, if you are wondering about my position, it is the concern about the continous hype created on our missile programme, whether real or imaginery which is only meant to be knocked down later when actually our missile programme is not upto the hype created leaving to the situtation much miserable than before the hype was created. Problem is, anyone who grown up on hearing these hypes when came to know that it is not what it is, imagine who will be blamed? It is not the person who created the hype but the programme itself and the people behind it.

If i take history as yardstick, they will be treated here as if they dont know how to design the missile.

What do you mean by the form factor?

From various commentaries, it is the way it is packed. Can we say that as compactness ?

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby David Siegel » 16 Aug 2010 19:28

India to approach US for anti-tank guided missile system
http://www.dnaindia.com/india/report_india-to-approach-us-for-anti-tank-guided-missile-system_1424249


India will send a request to the United States for procuring the Javelin anti-tank guided missile system, Lok Sabha was informed today.

"The defence ministry proposes to issue a letter of request (LoR) to the US government under their foreign military sales (FMS) route for procurement of third generation anti-tank guided missile along with transfer of technology," defence minister AK Antony said in a written reply to a query.

He added that after issuing the LoR, India will take further steps for procuring the missile system.

Both countries have been in talks for the sale of the missile system to India after it was recently showcased to the Indian troops during a bilateral exercise involving mechanised forces of the two Armies in Babina Cantt near Jhansi.

Under defence deals through the FMS route, India doesn't have to issue a global tender and the deal is done between the two governments.

Javelin is a fire-and-forget missile with lock-on before launch and automatic self-guidance. The system takes a top-attack flight profile against armoured vehicles (attacking the top armour which is generally thinner) but can also take a direct-attack mode for use against buildings or fortifications. This missile also has the ability to engage helicopters in the direct-attack mode.

Answering another query, the minister said during the recently-held Indian Ocean Naval Symposium (IONS) in the United Arab Emirates (UAE), discussions were held on the existing modalities of coordination in anti-piracy patrol and sharing of capacities and expertise in disaster relief.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby David Siegel » 16 Aug 2010 19:41

India To Progress Javelin ATGM Deal, "Enormously Expensive" Gaffed US Soldiers In India Last Year
from Livefist
http://livefist.blogspot.com/2010/08/india-to-progress-javelin-atgm-deal.html :evil: :cry: :oops: :-? :eek:

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby rohitvats » 17 Aug 2010 09:46

Has the number of out-right purchase and over-all procurement+domestic numbers been mentioned anywhere?

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby Karan M » 17 Aug 2010 11:02

rohitvats wrote:Has the number of out-right purchase and over-all procurement+domestic numbers been mentioned anywhere?


So far Javelin is the one deal wherein I have not read/heard any talk of it being produced locally aka Milan or Konkurs. Correct me if I am wrong.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby Singha » 17 Aug 2010 11:03

even 44K sounds like a good holding to me, if distributed and maintained well. bunkers are expected to be targeted with ATGMs not just tanks.

javelin is another waste of our tax payer money, instead just focus on man portable Nag, fill in the gaps and save $$/

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby Austin » 17 Aug 2010 11:15

Marten wrote:Pardon my ignorant question, but how many tanks do we expect to destroy with 81,000 ATGMs?


If you apply the sniper lingo of "one bullet one man" , so 81,000 ATGM should destroy 81,000 Tanks/ICV/Bunkers :wink:

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby rohitvats » 17 Aug 2010 11:16

Karan M wrote:
rohitvats wrote:Has the number of out-right purchase and over-all procurement+domestic numbers been mentioned anywhere?


So far Javelin is the one deal wherein I have not read/heard any talk of it being produced locally aka Milan or Konkurs. Correct me if I am wrong.


The report talks about ToT - so domestic production is sure there.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby rohitvats » 17 Aug 2010 11:27

Marten wrote:TOIlet article on Javelin sale via FMS

While the exact number of Javelin systems India will induct is yet to be decided, it could well run into thousands. The Army, after all, has a shortfall of around 44,000 ATGMs of different types. "Though Army has an authorised holding of 81,206 ATGMs, not even half that number is present in its inventory,'' said a source.

Pardon my ignorant question, but how many tanks do we expect to destroy with 81,000 ATGMs?


What is source of those 81K holding strength of ATGM? And the shortfall numbers? Where is TOI getting this from?

Last I checked, the reports said that shortfall is of ~8K ATGM. And was partly filled by Milan-2T production.

I tried to do some maths:

Total BMP-X likely to be in service - 2,200.
ATGM per BMP-X - 5
Active Requirement - 11,000
Reserves - 3*Active Requirement - 33,000
Total - 44,000 (This will be of Konkur-M type+Older ATGMs)

Infantry Battalions - 300
ATGM Launchers per Battalion - 6 (this is a guess)
ATGM per Launcher - 6 (1+5)
Active requirement - 10,800
Reserves - 3*Active Requirement - 32,400

Total ATGM Requirement - 65,400

The fact that we have old generation and multiple type of ATGM missiles may complicate the matter.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby Neshant » 17 Aug 2010 13:19

David Siegel wrote:"The defence ministry proposes to issue a letter of request (LoR) to the US government under their foreign military sales (FMS) route for procurement of third generation anti-tank guided missile along with transfer of technology,"


Transfer of Technology is one of those useless buzzwords that usually means transfer of money from India to a foreign country and little else. India is only paying to subsidize the R&D base of a foreign country at huge expense.

When will the man portable Nag be complete?

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby rohitvats » 17 Aug 2010 13:52

Can you please be more specific in your out-pouring? if the article metions ToT, can you tell me how it is going to completely useless and how this is yet another attempt to rob India. Thanx.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby D Roy » 17 Aug 2010 13:53

There was a report in 2002 that 1200 BMP-2s had been produced till then. There was report recently that Medak has been turning out 100 BMP-2s each year. Now we had about 600-700 BMP-1s to begin with. It could be that the current holding of BMP-X is in the 2600 range.

Also that is the basic figure being put out for the FICV requirement. Naturally all this is highly speculative.

Now 2600 * 5 = 13000
3* 13000 = 39000

Total - 52000

Plus
Infantry requirement : 32,400

Total 84,400 which is close to what TOI is reporting.
Last edited by D Roy on 17 Aug 2010 15:29, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby Pratyush » 17 Aug 2010 14:22

Guys, In all your calculations i thing you are forgetting the gun launched missels of T 72/90. What is thier authorised holdings. IIRC it is 6 rounds / gun.

Considering the numbers of T 90 and 72 in service and on order, it ought to be approx 24000.

adding the numbers from above

52000+32400+24000=108400 ATGMS at minimum :eek: :shock:

Or have I completely lost it.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby Pratyush » 17 Aug 2010 14:34

Singha wrote:even 44K sounds like a good holding to me, if distributed and maintained well. bunkers are expected to be targeted with ATGMs not just tanks.

javelin is another waste of our tax payer money, instead just focus on man portable Nag, fill in the gaps and save $$/



Could not agree with you more.


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