India-US Strategic News and Discussion

somnath · Post by **somnath** » 05 Apr 2011 12:41

RajeshA wrote: So basically India should stop playing poodle to USA, stop having expectations that USA would solve India's problems with respect to Pakistan, or China or any other issue!

It is time to leave the shadows of others, and to face the sun!

Of course, why should the US pull any of our chestnuts out of the fire? That doesnt mean that we cant have a profitable relationship with it, cut deals whenever it is to our interests...Tautological, well almost...

RajeshA · Post by **RajeshA** » 05 Apr 2011 12:47

somnath wrote:That doesnt mean that we cant have a profitable relationship with it, cut deals whenever it is to our interests...Tautological, well almost...

It means that we cannot go on acting like Hyenas feeding on the carcasses left over by the Lion. We have to kill our own game, including the game, that the Lion protects!

devesh · Post by **devesh** » 05 Apr 2011 20:47

RajeshA wrote:
somnath wrote:That doesnt mean that we cant have a profitable relationship with it, cut deals whenever it is to our interests...Tautological, well almost...
It means that we cannot go on acting like Hyenas feeding on the carcasses left over by the Lion. We have to kill our own game, including the game, that the Lion protects!

very well said. the attitude of hanging back and letting the US handle is a loser attitude. ultimately, US will shaft us. their goal is to return to pre-9/11 equilibrium. this requires that Paki-stain become the inheritor of Afghanistan situation. that is a bad outcome for India. anything that entrenches Paki-stain even more into the Power equations of Af/CA is bad.

svinayak · Post by **svinayak** » 05 Apr 2011 20:57

RajeshA wrote:
Basically Perkovich too is of the view, that USA cannot make India great, and ultimately it is the Indians that will decide India's strength.

So basically India should stop playing poodle to USA, stop having expectations that USA would solve India's problems with respect to Pakistan, or China or any other issue!

It means that we cannot go on acting like Hyenas feeding on the carcasses left over by the Lion. We have to kill our own game, including the game, that the Lion protects!

This business of making India great is not even funny anymore. India had given the image making business to others instead of itself.

This alignment with US IMO will be only in the areas that is of Indian interest and in others it will be non-alignment!
US will not be able to maintain the force projection at the same level and India has to build its own alliance.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 05 Apr 2011 21:26

RajeshA there is slow Niagara of opionion about how India has to standup coming from US chatterati. Its in wikipees, in op-eds, financial columns seminars what not. Its too single-minded to be a realization. It also builds on decades of social research on crafting the message to Indian ears.

svinayak · Post by **svinayak** » 05 Apr 2011 21:46

ramana wrote:RajeshA there is slow Niagara of opionion about how India has to standup coming from US chatterati. Its in wikipees, in op-eds, financial columns seminars what not. Its too single-minded to be a realization. It also builds on decades of social research on crafting the message to Indian ears.

From George Perkovich article

As Abraham writes, “Th e tremendous impact of soft power in
shaping how we all live, especially as the world becomes more globalised,
carries the message and promise of India in ways that a traditional foreign
policy built around force and fi nance can only dream of doing.”7

First they do cultural social engineering on India.
See how Indian soft power is to be used for social engineering of the rest of the world. If it results in Indians getting abused and it s religion getting violent response is of no consequence.

China is also brought under the US India relations

China is relevant here. Since the 1980s, it has successfully pursued a
strategy of societal mobilization in pursuit of economic growth without
diverting national energy and resources to military confl ict. Its economy
has grown to more than twice the size of India’s.9
No friendly outside power purposefully helped China to rise. Th e Chinese government
designed and implemented policies that mobilized the great talent, energy,
and savings of the Chinese people.

Proliferation by PRC is ignored.

UBanerjee · Post by **UBanerjee** » 05 Apr 2011 23:52

RajeshA wrote:
somnath wrote:That doesnt mean that we cant have a profitable relationship with it, cut deals whenever it is to our interests...Tautological, well almost...
It means that we cannot go on acting like Hyenas feeding on the carcasses left over by the Lion. We have to kill our own game, including the game, that the Lion protects!

Hyenas can often drive a Lion from a kill working in packs.

devesh · Post by **devesh** » 06 Apr 2011 08:38

so who are the other Hyenas who will be join our pack?

Sanku · Post by **Sanku** » 06 Apr 2011 13:57

devesh wrote:so who are the other Hyenas who will be join our pack?

Thats the tragedy, that we are sidelining the other Hynea's which we need in our pack and trotting along the heels of the lions with its pack of emasculated dogs.

So from at least a Hyena we are now moving down full speed.....

And 6 years back we thought that the time to throw off the false coat and show true leonine colours and come.

joshvajohn · Post by **joshvajohn** » 07 Apr 2011 00:10

US lawmakers tell Obama, dump Pakistan and go with India
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/worl ... 886263.cms

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 07 Apr 2011 00:26

If it was so easy they would have done it so long.
And TSP is needed for other purposes.

Colud be part of realignment and go with a winner.

jiteshn · Post by **jiteshn** » 07 Apr 2011 01:45

Self deleted

Cosmo_R · Post by **Cosmo_R** » 07 Apr 2011 03:00

^^^Lawmakers tell Obama to dump Pakistan...

Ackerman and Rohrbacher are in soliciting campaign contributions mode..

Ackerman is part of the India Caucus and Rohrbacher is being worked on. See #11

http://www.vedicfriends.org/tips_for_po ... action.htm

asprinzl · Post by **asprinzl** » 07 Apr 2011 06:19

There are a billion plus Indians. You dont need any other packs of Hyennas.

RamaY · Post by **RamaY** » 07 Apr 2011 06:32

Bravo asprinzl!!!

Take a bow!

arun · Post by **arun** » 07 Apr 2011 07:08

joshvajohn wrote:US lawmakers tell Obama, dump Pakistan and go with India
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/worl ... 886263.cms

The part about US legislators reportedly believing that America is being “taken for suckers" and "looked at as patsies" by the Islamic Republic of Pakistan is amusing

.

The comment section of the article is a bee hive of activity.

D Roy · Post by **D Roy** » 07 Apr 2011 10:12

I don't know how many know this. But predator night studies have shown that Hyenas are anything but scavengers. Most predators hunt at night with the Hyenas being no exception.

What happens is that, Hyena kills are often contested by largish lion prides who sometimes successfully grab defeated prey. Typically you have the lions feasting well into the day of what was a hyena kill with the overmatched hyenas milling about their stolen prey!

Of course the great british wanted to see the lions as majestic and noble with the native hyenas waiting for the scaps.

Manny · Post by **Manny** » 08 Apr 2011 03:41

What Americans have done to India

http://www.joshuaproject.net/global-progress-scale.php

Look at Kerala, West Bengal, North East and Tamilnadu. They are gone. the focus is on Andra and other states.

svinayak · Post by **svinayak** » 09 Apr 2011 01:55

Same people

http://www.guardian.co.uk/media/organgr ... ed-his-ass

Stewart himself must be at least a teeny bit sad that Beck is leaving Fox News, given how much material he has provided over the past couple of years. Perhaps most memorably, in March 2010 the first half of the Daily Show was given over to a 15-minute spoof by Stewart of Beck's presenting style and conspiracy theories.

---------------

krisna · Post by **krisna** » 09 Apr 2011 06:04

Indian-Americans on U.S. tax authorities’ scanner

Indians resident in the United States and holding offshore bank accounts in India and elsewhere via the Hong Kong and Shanghai Banking Corporation (HSBC) are likely to face questions from the U.S. federal tax authority on whether they have been evading taxes.

Requesting court permission to issue what is called a “John Doe” summons on HSBC the DoJ said that these orders would help the IRS obtain information about possible tax fraud by people whose identities were as yet unknown. However if approved, the summons would “direct HSBC USA to produce records identifying U.S. taxpayers with accounts at HSBC India, many of whom are believed by the government to have hidden their accounts from the IRS.”

It is possible that HSBC itself may be implicated in any potential lawsuits filed by the U.S. government, particularly as documents filed with the government’s petition, on January 26 2011 suggested that employees of HSBC assured one of their clients, Vaibhav Dahake of Somerset, New Jersey, “that accounts maintained in India would not be reported to the IRS.”

Under U.S. federal law U.S. taxpayers are required to pay federal income taxes on all income earned worldwide. U.S. taxpayers must also report foreign financial accounts if the total value of the accounts exceeds $10,000 at any time during the calendar year, the DoJ said.

kmkraoind · Post by **kmkraoind** » 09 Apr 2011 13:08

Pact on India-Japan-U.S. trilateral in the offing - The Hindu

Christopher Sidor · Post by **Christopher Sidor** » 09 Apr 2011 18:30

^^^^
This is good. We should have more consultations like this. As long as, no military/defense pact is presumed we should definitely have this discussion. We will have to manage the perception that this is a prelude to some sort of military understanding. This also shows our maturity. We have moved beyond the nuclear pact and have not let it take us hostage. There are alternatives to Japan and even if the Indo-Japanese nuclear accord is not forthcoming, we need not fret. Japan is welcome to hold its opinions.

There is one thing that India has to take care. We are leaving South-Koreans out of this. As the South-Koreans will eventually be the lords of a merged Korea and are also a significant player in Indian economic scene, we will need them also. I would have hoped that this would have been a south korea-japan-india-us disucssion.

devesh · Post by **devesh** » 09 Apr 2011 18:39

^^^
the proposal is spearheaded by Uncle. Uncle doesn't want all his allies to come under one single umbrella to form a military agreement with a rising power. Uncle chose Japan b/c Japan is still under Uncle's shadow. SK, not so much, therefore harder to control if they form a military agreement with India.

RajeshA · Post by **RajeshA** » 09 Apr 2011 18:46

Christopher Sidor wrote:I would have hoped that this would have been a south korea-japan-india-us disucssion.

Difficult to get Japanese and South Koreans on the same page military wise. It is okay if India pursues Japan and South Korea separately.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 10 Apr 2011 17:33

Testimony before the House Foreign Affairs Committee, Subcommittee on the Middle East and South Asia

Testimony
Robert O. Blake, Jr.
Assistant Secretary, Bureau of South and Central Asian Affairs
Washington, DC
April 5, 2011

svinayak · Post by **svinayak** » 11 Apr 2011 12:09

http://home.comcast.net/~christine_fair ... ntests.pdf

Learning to Think the Unthinkable:
Lessons from India’s Nuclear Tests
C. CHRISTINE FAIR

This is an elaborate article going back to sequence of events on India. Not too much details on PRC proliferations and
covert expansion.

Such interviewees
argued that India was being treated as an up-and-coming power, and
that this fulfilled New Delhi’s demands for status. One individual, still
unable to understand India’s motivations to test well into 1999,
declared “Looking back … we can’t figure out why in the hell they
would jeopardize all of this that we were promising.”

Lot of naive questions when at the same time ignoring all the nuclear expansion of PRC and its client Pakistan.
Looks more like a charade to show PRC that US was actively trying to curtail India for 30 years.

JE Menon · Post by **JE Menon** » 11 Apr 2011 12:24

I wonder what that individual would say now. Of course, on BRF we immediately predicted the outcome, in fair detail and there were accurate predictions of timelines too.

And what did we jeopardise ?

kittoo · Post by **kittoo** » 11 Apr 2011 13:32

Manny wrote:What Americans have done to India

http://www.joshuaproject.net/global-progress-scale.php

Look at Kerala, West Bengal, North East and Tamilnadu. They are gone. the focus is on Andra and other states.

Cant open the page. Any proper link?
And I thought WE didnt have much presence of these kind of projects etc. Was I wrong?

jiteshn · Post by **jiteshn** » 11 Apr 2011 13:54

Feb 2008

Jan 2009

Aug 2010

abhischekcc · Post by **abhischekcc** » 11 Apr 2011 15:39

Jitesh,

Do you have these photos of earlier periods as well?

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 11 Apr 2011 16:23

if they are that intrested and passionate at what they do, they should try thier hand at countries located at India's immediate North west. Huntinton's thesis will be put in practice.

But seriously, what % pop is good enough for growing, because living in TN , I don't see the rationale for the Green in TN or for that matter in the Socialist Republic to the west, wonder what the criteria seem to be?

harbans · Post by **harbans** » 11 Apr 2011 16:41

that this fulfilled New Delhi’s demands for status.

This is a big miscalculation the West/ China is making regards India. Indians don't wan't 'Status' really. They just are satisfied with not being 'bullied'. India's 'status' would probably rise 10 fold more by pulling out of UNSC than trying to get a seat or getting one there after grovelling for starters. If one thinks a little, it's only India's WKK type semi liberal, semi literate TOIlet, DDM types that are hankering after some 'status'. Mostly the feudal elite or the commie, left wing elite that got to the strings of power post Independence India that dream this 'superpower' dream. It is this elite WKK crowd that the West uses, ridicules..and even the folks at Deff n dumb do too with an element of reason. Some of the folks that cannot dish out English well end up in the 'right wing nationalist Hindu' party and end up doing the same. India is not guarding anything today, that a Musharaff or Sherry Rehman as PM of India and yes Pakistan combined would not defend they do (Paki's correctly, sorry to say but yes when they say we are both in it for the same thing against terror) . Therein we as India have to make our red lines clearer. When we actually do that in a normal kind of way, we don't have to 'demand' or seek Status. It will be ours.

So Pakistan says we face the same problem..Yes we do. Because Sherry and Mush would defend an India against the same threat to what extent MMS does? Yes maybe more. Problem one see's here Indian leadership is failing to develop a vision about defending something more core than what a Musharaff or Sherry or Obama would do if any one of these were India's PM. India is not a Private Ltd firm..like it's being run now and these years.

sanjaykumar · Post by **sanjaykumar** » 11 Apr 2011 16:58

Glad the Joshua project site has been outed on BR. I did not want to post it.

The audacity of naming the project by Joshua is identical to the pride of Pakis' choice of nomenclature for their borrowed missiles.

It reveals an unshekable contempt for the other. A loud and vulgar declaration of the invalidity of another's entire culture. When non-cult members have the freedom to treat these same politico-religious imperialisms with equal contempt, the value of freedom will be established.

There is a start made more explicit in the last few years with media exposure including Dawkins as well as the more polemical God Is Not Great, and the almost unreadable In Defence of Atheism.

Of course large numbers of people have silently added to the revolt over the last four decades by choosing to not go to church, in the West. I don't know if they will be burnt eternally in the fires of hell. But by the grace of the Joshua Project many superstitious natives, oppressed by their native primitive culture will be given a fair chance to avoid the fate of the non-Israelites as documented in the Book of Joshua; having escaped summary execution they will have a chance to repent the sin of knowledge and take their chances escaping the afore-mentioned hellfire. Not to mention being spared the embarrassment of their many armed gods. (And move to the head of the line for paradise/the green card).

sanjaykumar · Post by **sanjaykumar** » 11 Apr 2011 17:07

But seriously, what % pop is good enough for growing...

A good question. They rely on criticality just as in fission. To the same potentially destructive ends. A perusal of the history of the Faith in heathen Japan is highly instructive, including the counter reaction lead by Hideoshi.

The creeping conversion of South Korea is a classic study in How to Win Friends and Influence People. South Korea is disturbing. I would not have expected a rapidly industrialising, educated society with a significant imperialist culture to have abdicated its heritage wholesale. We must look to Japan for insights.

ManuT · Post by **ManuT** » 11 Apr 2011 19:24

A Pakistani intelligence official says Gen. Ahmed Shuja Pasha was headed on Monday to the US, where he was expected to meet with the CIA chief.

http://www.dawn.com/2011/04/11/pakistan ... sions.html

merlin · Post by **merlin** » 12 Apr 2011 09:24

sanjaykumar wrote:But seriously, what % pop is good enough for growing...

A good question. They rely on criticality just as in fission. To the same potentially destructive ends. A perusal of the history of the Faith in heathen Japan is highly instructive, including the counter reaction lead by Hideoshi.

The creeping conversion of South Korea is a classic study in How to Win Friends and Influence People. South Korea is disturbing. I would not have expected a rapidly industrialising, educated society with a significant imperialist culture to have abdicated its heritage wholesale. We must look to Japan for insights.

Yes, South Korea would make a good study. Any links to further my understanding of how the South Koreans behaved like the Pakis (reject your culture wholesale for an alien one)?

devesh · Post by **devesh** » 12 Apr 2011 10:07

http://www.deccanherald.com/content/151 ... -says.html

ISI continues to support LeT, says US Congressmen

jiteshn · Post by **jiteshn** » 12 Apr 2011 12:33

You don't have to look at north korea to understand the transition. A good example could be found in india itself in the north east states.

The NE people adopted chritianity for 3 significant reasons:

1) To eliminate tribalism and tribal practices. The pain of being known for head hunting, dog eating etc etc

2) The fact that they do not look like mainland indians raises an argument that they will never be fully integrated into indian society. So they reject all indic concepts and adopt the only available prescription; christianity. And as for prefect role models, they look at south koreans who happen to be just like them(christian converts) and even look like them.

3) Modernity. Speaking english makes people modern. Ever come across new indian converts who suddenly and out of the blue start conversing in english with family members? The NE have that trait too.

I think this christian phenomenon in mainland india is mostly a southern obsession. I leave out the dailts in rural maharashtra and UP because i know quite a few of them and they might hang the biggest portrait of ambedkar in their houses but they're purely indic. My guess is that some southern indians have been lectured on the differences between aryanism and dravidianism type of arguments. South is culturally rich so that is not a problem.

The significant problem is poverty. People's faith are being bought and sold. I think the only solution to combat this is to spread the india's economic prosperity to rural areas. Maybe MMS has indeed seen the light.

UBanerjee · Post by **UBanerjee** » 12 Apr 2011 14:01

There is a significant totalitarian force within Christianity and there is a significant force of pluralism as well. IMO the West is in retreat from religious zeal in general - particularly Europe - and the totalitarian strains have metastasized elsewhere (e.g. SK). A major project needs to be undertaken to complete the reformation of Christianity as a force for pluralism by undermining the Nicene Creed and showing the Bible to be a syncretic collection of documents which was arbitrarily edited and made into a authoritarian book by the imperial Romans. Such knowledge is already spreading and there are signs of this. The earliest Christians included both more orthodox and more heterodox elements of all sorts, it was quite chaotic and free for all, many books were proposed, many ideas about God put forth, and a good deal of debate happened. This needs to be promoted as the true Christianity, which lasted a few centuries, before co-opted by Rome.

Protestant belief in the unerring Bible is a fabrication and more virulent strains of Protestant religion depend entirely on this idea, if it crumbles the whole edifice crumbles. And with increasing and scholarship and knowledge we learn more and more about the many books of the Bible left on the cutting floor, the many traditions discarded, the many diverse views shut out in order to create a State Religion. So this belief that this current Bible is a magic document becomes increasingly ridiculous - so long as these points are emphasized.

Catholic ideology is less toxic and has some place as one institution among many in a heterodox Christian world, it has shown the ability to adapt. In any case it is too much of a venerable institution to really fall given all that it has already survived.

The Protestant Reformation was very useful though in that it splintered the power structure of Christianity and created the need for greater pluralism and tolerance of ideologies. The pagan Roman tradition of imperial tolerance towards religions re-entered through the Renaissance and needs to be brought to its culmination.

Sanku · Post by **Sanku** » 12 Apr 2011 15:03

jiteshn wrote: The NE people adopted chritianity for 3 significant reasons:

1) To eliminate tribalism and tribal practices. The pain of being known for head hunting, dog eating etc etc

Oh please most tribes were converted before Independence, and after Nehru stopped the missionary activity from outside, very few new tribes converted.

There is no reason-weason -- its simple tons of money coupled with light and sound show for naive population, who are deliberately exposed to only one strain of light and sound and others not allowed to compete.

Zimble.