India-US Strategic News and Discussion

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arjunm
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Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Postby arjunm » 09 Dec 2010 22:54

Here is a nice Photograph of her at the White House with Prez Obama

http://www.allvoices.com/contributed-ne ... pi-airport

woww..Krishnaji...don't you know that talking overboard will attract a warning from PMO? so cool down....kuch nahi ukhaada jaayega..we know all this is a "Show of a non-existent spine" quote

Yeah, Krishnaji and it will also build up stress to stammer you more to forget the real.... What?.... i....s..sue, better try to implement some rules like the Brazilian did to take some pounce of arrogance of the Americans , specially worthies like hot shot senators/ Congress man when they try to visit and lecture our "wonderful obedient" PM.

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Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Postby ramana » 09 Dec 2010 23:01

The panchatantra has the story of how the king armed his favorite monkey with a sword. I see the same parable at play here. TSA is filled with a lot of self important people who will exercise their arbitrary powers and violate norms. The Democrats are scared stiff of a repeat of 911 type incident under their watch. So they are dispensing with propriety and going overboard.

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Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Postby ramana » 09 Dec 2010 23:34

I think SM Krishna should call back Ambassador Meera Shankar for 'consultations" and not send her back till US clears up the matter by exempting diplomats or else it will be travesty to the Vienna Conventionon Diplomatic Relations. The physical search is same as the first category. Just as her residence is inviolate her person is too.
Otherwise subject Roemer to reciprocal treatment.

wiki page:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diplomatic_immunity

Vienna Convention of Diplomatic Relations:

http://untreaty.un.org/ilc/texts/instru ... 1_1961.pdf

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Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Postby vera_k » 10 Dec 2010 00:48

I'm not sure its that simple. For example, diplomats can get traffic tickets as that document says.

I think diplomats should increase use of video conferencing and drive or take charter flights as far as possible. Also, in view of technological progress since 1961, its not clear why ambassador has to be physically present in receiving state. Trade relations can well be handled by Nira Radia types.

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Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Postby abhishek_sharma » 10 Dec 2010 00:53

American exceptionalism: a realist view

http://walt.foreignpolicy.com/posts/2010/12/06/american_exceptionalism_a_realist_view

Americans like to think the United States is different (i.e., "better") than other countries. The idea that the United States is "exceptional," a "shining city on a hill," or destined by Providence to play a special role in world history, is a popular theme among politicians and widely embraced by ordinary U.S. citizens. ...

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Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Postby ramana » 10 Dec 2010 01:21

vera_k wrote:I'm not sure its that simple. For example, diplomats can get traffic tickets as that document says.

I think diplomats should increase use of video conferencing and drive or take charter flights as far as possible. Also, in view of technological progress since 1961, its not clear why ambassador has to be physically present in receiving state. Trade relations can well be handled by Nira Radia types.



I disagree. Read the regulations once again. Physical search of an Ambassodor is like arrest. It removes/suspends the diplomatic immunity while being conducted. Physical search is not a traffic ticket. Please get your understanding of leagal violations in order.

I am disappointed that you can think of a coporate fixer as a lobbyist for Govt of relations.

The sad thing with education is it should open your mind and not blur the moral issues.

*BTW after the Ms Clinton's instructions to her diplomats in the wikipees, they lose the immunity and come under espionage.

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Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Postby vera_k » 10 Dec 2010 01:58

The Vienna convention supports either interpretation. The first para supports what TSA has been doing, in light of the creative use of planes on 9/11.

Subject to its laws and regulations concerning zones entry into which is prohibited or regulated
for reasons of national security, the receiving State shall ensure to all members of the mission freedom
of movement and travel in its territory.


vs.

The person of a diplomatic agent shall be inviolable. He shall not be liable to any form of arrest
or detention. The receiving State shall treat him with due respect and shall take all appropriate steps to
prevent any attack on his person, freedom or dignity.


ramana wrote:BTW after the Ms Clinton's instructions to her diplomats in the wikipees, they lose the immunity and come under espionage.


Sure, but that is in GoI control. If GoI does not wish to take a hard line, what can ambassador do except avoid flying?

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Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Postby ramana » 10 Dec 2010 02:02

When there is interpretation it should be to protect the honor and dignity and not the other way around. We are talking of the Ambassoador who represents the President of India. Not a consular official.
And there are signs of potential discrimination of singling her out for wearing her sari.

Anyway I said my piece and understand where you are coming from.

No more from me here.

PS: If on BRF one can't show respect and interpretation in favor of Bharat, I don't know where we will go.

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Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Postby munna » 10 Dec 2010 02:40

Ramanaji this thought from Dasam Pita Guru Gobind Singh ji

Koi Kisi Ko Raj Na De Hai, Jo Mile Hai Nij Bal Se Mile Hai (Power is not granted but snatched by inner courage/fortitude)


explains why our ambassador is humiliated despite protestations and yet see what happens when a Chinese diplomat (mark it not even an ambassador) is touched by two yumreeki pulis thullas.

HuffPo
DALLAS — Three Houston police officers have been restricted to desk duty after they followed a Chinese diplomat into the parking garage of the Chinese Consulate, arrested the man and injured him, the Houston mayor said.

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Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Postby sunnyP » 10 Dec 2010 05:30

Sen sticking up for the Americans:


Security screening for envoys of all countries: Ronen Sen

New Delhi: Reacting to reports that Indian Ambassador to the US, Meera Shankar, was patted down by an American security agent at a US airport, Ronen Sen, a former Indian envoy to US, said security screening at airports is applicable to dignitaries from all countries.

Sen said such screenings were not new and he too faced similar experiences between 2004 and 2009, not only in US but also in Germany.

"Security screening at airports is applicable to dignitaries from all countries, with the exception of Union Cabinet Ministers and above, that too on official visits," he said, adding, "The exception is not applicable on private visits. It is not even applicable for Ambassadors, Governors, Chief Ministers or Ministers of State. It does not apply to former Presidents or PMs."

Security agents claimed Meera Shankar was singled out because she was wearing a sari. But Sen insists that the "screening has got nothing to do with what one's wearing."


http://www.ndtv.com/article/india/secur ... -sen-71536

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Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Postby pgbhat » 10 Dec 2010 06:21

But Sen insists that the "screening has got nothing to do with what one's wearing."

Really? Good old Ambassador is clearly BSing here. :roll:
http://www.clarionledger.com/article/20 ... irs-uproar
TSA spokesman Jon Allen said the agency can conduct additional screenings when passengers wear “bulky” clothing.

“After a review of this passenger’s screening experience, we determined that the TSA officers in Jackson followed proper standard procedure,” Allen said in an e-mail Thursday. “Officers must use their professional discretion to determine if a particular item of clothing could hide a threat object.”

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Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Postby SaiK » 10 Dec 2010 06:26

I can't think of a reason why TSA would pat her down for Sari, only if it had gold jari like in pure kancheepuram sarees where it cause metal detectors keep beeping. Still, the reasoning is not clear. GoI must lodge a strong protest and make sure diplomats are treated per conventions.

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Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Postby pgbhat » 10 Dec 2010 06:31

^ You can always come with potential "risks" like Plastic explosives ityaadi. :|

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Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Postby CRamS » 10 Dec 2010 06:34

pgbhat wrote:
But Sen insists that the "screening has got nothing to do with what one's wearing."

Really? Good old Ambassador is clearly BSing here. :roll:
http://www.clarionledger.com/article/20 ... irs-uproar
TSA spokesman Jon Allen said the agency can conduct additional screenings when passengers wear “bulky” clothing.

“After a review of this passenger’s screening experience, we determined that the TSA officers in Jackson followed proper standard procedure,” Allen said in an e-mail Thursday. “Officers must use their professional discretion to determine if a particular item of clothing could hide a threat object.”


Oh really. I will believe your maacho, "concientious" BS Mr. Jon Allen, if you subject someone from a lily white European country, or an Israeli dignitary with the same humiliating treatment, and then say with a straight face that you are your duty bound. Give me a f$%&*ing break.

One thing that amuses me about the TSA patting down debate in the US media. And that is racial profiling as if none exists now. The debate goes, why not profiling instead of this tedious, humiliating pat downs. But the truth of the matter, as this Meera Shankar incident shows is that profiling, especially racial profiling is well underway when it comes it pat downs. Everybody knows about it, and yet this self-righteous cacophony that it does not exist.

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Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Postby ManjaM » 10 Dec 2010 07:12

India should team up with China pitch for Nobel Peace prize for Assange (the wikileaks guy). Anything to needle these arrogant imbeciles.

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Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Postby ramana » 10 Dec 2010 07:21

Is his middle name "Gungadin" ?

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Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Postby ramana » 10 Dec 2010 07:40

Hindustan Times reports:

US regrets pat down of Indian Ambassador Meera Shankar

The US on Thursday expressed concern over the patting down of Indian ambassador Meera Shankar at an airport in Mississippi last week and reached out to her regretting the incident. “We obviously are concerned about it,” said US secretary of state Hillary Clinton. Around the same time the state department reached out to Ambassador Shankar.

“The US department of state has reached out to the ambassador and has regretted what all happened,” said Indian embassy spokesperson Virendar Paul.

Shankar was pulled out of a security line at Jackson airport in Mississippi for a secondary screening despite the fact that she had passed through the metal frame without setting off an alarm. Indian embassy officials said Shankar was singled out for her sari, an unfamiliar dress in this country.

The Transportation Security Administration, which runs security at all US airports, defended the pat down saying no one is exempted.

Clinton spoke about a review on Thursday, but did not elaborate. “But certainly, we will be looking into it and not only responding to the Indian foreign minister but also reviewing the policies.”

Indian external affairs minister S M Krishna had called the incident “unacceptable”.

The pat downs are immensely unpopular with some Americans – recent polls showed that most people feel incovenienced by it but consider it a necessary evil. Some flyers have vowed to not fly till it’s ended.

Not every passenger is subjected to a pat down. It’s a secondary screening administered on a passenger who sets off a metal frame alarm or something is found suspicious during a body screening.

Or if he or she refused a body imaging security check.




However Ms Shankar did not set off any of those redlines. Its clear case of discrimination.

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Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Postby negi » 10 Dec 2010 08:09

We need a Agni X now, the land of p0$nstars* understands only one language.


* If ours is a land of snakes charmers and monkey gods then their's is a land of p0$nstars , no ?

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Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Postby abhishek_sharma » 10 Dec 2010 08:28

Hindu did not comment on this episode in its editorial.
Hindustan Times did not comment in its editorial.

Indian Express writes:

Pat down, grow up

http://www.indianexpress.com/news/Pat-down--grow-up/722821

After speaking at Mississippi State University, Indian Ambassador Meera Shankar was subjected to a “humiliating” extended pat-down at Jackson-Evers Airport. Airport checks are a universally annoying experience, and it may have been hard to Ambassador Shankar to be plucked out of a line and put through an indignity her job has so far insulated her from — but is it really a strain on our bilateral relationship, as it would seem from External Affairs Minister S.M. Krishna’s demand for an immediate apology?In the airport’s defence, the US Transportation Security Administration (TSA) has recently ramped up its rules. Diplomats are not automatically exempted; it’s left to security officers’ discretion. Though many of those offended on Shankar’s behalf reflexively claimed racism, passengers who wear bulky clothing are usually put through a more rigorous search according to TSA rules and Shankar was wearing a sari. The rules are invasive and exasperating (as the furore over the full-body scanners highlights) and it may even be debatable whether the elaborate rings of security serve as reassuring theatre or actually deter terrorists. But that’s not what India’s diplomatic establishment is so agitated about. It’s not even really about the way some individuals are subjected to more oppressive checks. It’s simply about the TSA’s temerity in picking on our ambassador, in not respecting the cordon sanitaire that divides high-ranking officials and ordinary people, and about the prickly insecurity we display when important people in India (George Fernandes, Shah Rukh Khan) are not treated with due reverence in other parts of the world. “Let me be frank, this is unacceptable to India,” Krishna said, holding that he would extract a full accounting from the US government so that such departures from convention didn’t intrude on “the very cordial relationship” between the two countries. Does a simple case of over-vigilant airport security warrant such emotion from India’s foreign minister? Why are we so insistent on two cultures for VIPs and others, where a lucky few float through the processes that hold up ordinary citizens? There are certain exemptions that the diplomatic corps enjoy, but if those conventions are occasionally bypassed, that’s not a grievous injury to India’s self-worth.


Do you see the logic?

One comment from a reader published below the editorial:

now its clear which media agency is bankrolled by the CIA - indian Express. its a yawn inducing practice that atleast one media report will be a contrarian take and self debasing to boot.no credits for this one mr editor .only indians can humilate themselves and you have done just that.



Editorial in Hindustan (Hindi)

Suraksha aur Samman (safety and honor)

http://epaper.hindustandainik.com/PUBLICATIONS/HT/HT/2010/12/10/ArticleHtmls/%C3%80FbS%C3%83FF-A%C3%BCS-%C3%80F%C2%B8%C2%B8FF%C2%B3F-10122010010017.shtml?Mode=1

Bhartiya rajdoot Meera Shankar ke saath amriki hawai-adde par hua sulook rajneetik shistachaar aur mahilaon ke samman ke khilaf hai


Rough Translation: US behavior is against diplomatic protocol and they are not showing enough respect to women.

It also goes on to say that:

Americans are uninformed (agyaani) about other countries.
They are arrogant.
This was done because she is not white.

hume amrika to bata dena chahiye ki mahashakti hone se doosron ka aapmaan karne ki chhot nahi mil jaati hai aur Bharat ki mahila rajdoot ka apmaan humaare liye rashtriya apmaan hai


Rough Translation: We should tell America that their superpower status does not give them any right to insult others. The insult of a woman Ambassador is an insult of the nation.

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Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Postby ramana » 10 Dec 2010 09:35

Do our forum members feel that strongly!

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Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Postby munna » 10 Dec 2010 09:43

ramana wrote:Do our forum members feel that strongly!

Raises two hands.

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Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Postby ramana » 10 Dec 2010 09:43

No go back over last few pages.

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Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Postby Rangudu » 10 Dec 2010 10:02

Two things should happen. A formal apology needs to be given by the SD. Credible assurances also needs to be provided that this type of action will not be repeated. If they are not given, GoI should do something even if it is symbolic.

We all make fun of TSP's H&D obsession but this is one instance where H&D matters. The Hon'ble ambassador is the representative of the Republic of India and needs to be treated as such.

I don't blame the TSA peons for this. They are the equivalent of a pot bellied local police constable in rural India. I'm sure some bubba saw the lady in a Saree and thought "A-raaab" and may even have believed he'll get a commendation.

How does a visiting VIP avoid getting hassled by a constable? His host talks to the Station Sub Inspector and gets the job done from top-down.

Knowing how bad the TSA is, ambassadors and visiting dignitaries should be accompanied by someone from the State Dept who can talk to the supervisors ahead of time and avoid such actions.

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Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Postby vera_k » 10 Dec 2010 10:14

If GoI is serious about it, they can recall Ms. Shankar and send back the US ambassador. That'll get attention given the work it will create in the US system (new ambassador, confirmation hearings). But such reciprocity is complicated because Indian ambassador is a career officer while US ambassador is a politician, and therefore a rung up the chain in the Neta-Babu-Judge-Pandu equation (more chance for ruffled feathers).

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Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Postby Pratyush » 10 Dec 2010 10:22

Regardless of the TSA responsibilities. Any one who is carrying an Indian diplomatic passport should be treated with Honour & dignity as he/she is a represantative of our nation. Regardless of the rank he/she holds. Consequently as a diplomate his/ her dignity is paramount to the maintainence of good coordial relations.


In this case the Indian ambassador was clearly singled out inspite of not having any thing on her person which might be a threat to her fellow travellers.

The actions of the people who put their hands on her person have voilated the dignity and offended the modesty of the Ambassador. This a direct assault and deserves a responce.

Recall the ambassador untill further notice, expell the US ambassador till the indian ambassador does not return to her station.

But the current GOI will take no such step. They will pretend to sleep as they have demonstrated in the past.

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Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Postby Amitava » 10 Dec 2010 10:40

iirc Shri Somnath Chatterjee, then Speaker of the Lok Sabha, turned down an invitation for a visit to Australia because he did not receive an assurance that he wouldn't have to go through extensive security checks.

Yes, a few forum members, a few journalists, a few individuals here and there do feel strongly about this and similar issues.

However, others do not think this is important, and that is the main reason why our government appears to be is spineless.

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Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Postby Sanku » 10 Dec 2010 10:46

Amitava wrote:However, others do not think this is important, and that is the main reason why our government appears to be is spineless.


+1.

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Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Postby Dileep » 10 Dec 2010 11:20

Well, the fact of the matter is, in the LOPS (thanx negi. It should get into the BRF dictionary), the formal feminine dress is very secure. It doesn't even hide what it is supposed to, so no chance for weapons or explosives to be hidden. A sari, in comparison, is indeed bulky garb.

What is the bigg deal about groping, I say?. Every airline passenger (except the more equal nbjprie) in India had been getting groped by the pan chewing pandu for ages. Does anyone complain?

Then, you can't except diplomats. Would you, honestly, be comfortable flying with the Paki ambassador?

Swallow it, baby. Good for your skin!!

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Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Postby Singha » 10 Dec 2010 11:29

:oops: Dileep saar...

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Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Postby Pratyush » 10 Dec 2010 11:38

Dileep wrote:Well, the fact of the matter is, in the LOPS (thanx negi. It should get into the BRF dictionary), the formal feminine dress is very secure. It doesn't even hide what it is supposed to, so no chance for weapons or explosives to be hidden. A sari, in comparison, is indeed bulky garb.

What is the bigg deal about groping, I say?. Every airline passenger (except the more equal nbjprie) in India had been getting groped by the pan chewing pandu for ages. Does anyone complain?

Then, you can't except diplomats. Would you, honestly, be comfortable flying with the Paki ambassador?

Swallow it, baby. Good for your skin!!


Dileep,

The logic and reasoning is unacceptable.

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Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Postby negi » 10 Dec 2010 11:43

Dileep saar the issue here is not about an Indian woman being subjected to pat down we know this has been happening for quite some time the point is about the world supel powel failing to uphold a well known and observed tradition with regards to privileges enjoyed by a diplomat of a foreign country. And oh yes I am fine with pat down searches of diplomats too but then let the rules be amended, made unambiguous and lastly put in place for either parties, hell we have more genuine reasons to be wary of the Headley types visiting India as compared to the LOPS (thanks for shortening it). :mrgreen:
Last edited by negi on 10 Dec 2010 11:45, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Postby Dileep » 10 Dec 2010 11:44

Pratyush wrote:The logic and reasoning is unacceptable.

It is neither logic nor reasoning. It is something called irony, which is a type of humour.

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Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Postby Dileep » 10 Dec 2010 11:52

Negi, LOPS had been doing such things, and they will keep on doing them, even if they fall from the supel poweldom. There is no nice and decent way to counter it, without ourselves becoming an arrogant and defiant nation like them.

I honestly wish we do. We had been the good boys, coveting the browny points all the time. It never helped us. We could very well return the favour, and then make the same BS soundbytes the unkil babus do, including, "This is no way connected to the old incidents" yada yada.

Would we? All of us know the answer already. Hence the last quip. Take solace in the (imaginary) dermatological benefits.

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Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Postby Pratyush » 10 Dec 2010 11:54

ohh.....

I am a bit dense in the head when it comes to both. :P

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Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Postby CRamS » 10 Dec 2010 12:56

For those including that odious US mouthpiece "Indian" express, they have no clue on how US works. All these bogus tough pat downs are in place to do racial profiling without actually saying so (and then pompously "debating" on why racial profiling while better, is neverthless immoral and other self righteous crap). Meera ShankarJi, such a gentle woman, was nothign but a victim of hateful, disrespectful, victim of racial profiling; she was treated with contempt and disdain. It is pissing on India, no other way to characterize it. Anybody who denies the obvious needs to have his/her head examined. Can you imagine what would have happened if a European or Israeli dignitary were subject to such disdainful treatment? Do you think its even possible?

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Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Postby arjunm » 10 Dec 2010 12:58

Dileep wrote:Well, the fact of the matter is, in the LOPS (thanx negi. It should get into the BRF dictionary), the formal feminine dress is very secure. It doesn't even hide what it is supposed to, so no chance for weapons or explosives to be hidden. A sari, in comparison, is indeed bulky garb.

What is the bigg deal about groping, I say?. Every airline passenger (except the more equal nbjprie) in India had been getting groped by the pan chewing pandu for ages. Does anyone complain?

Then, you can't except diplomats. Would you, honestly, be comfortable flying with the Paki ambassador?

Swallow it, baby. Good for your skin!!

This is a classic case of racial profiling went too far. First of all when she showed her diplomatic papers, they should know that she is not an ordinary flier and the sergeant who was escorting her also told to the TSA people that she was the Indian Ambassador. Secondly, when she understood that these red necks won't budge , she politely asked for a private room but she was denied. if you see her photo with Obama in White house, where it looks bulky?, a thin single drape of silk? I think Hillary Clinton looks bulkier with her gown than her in true sense. And after all these what was the rational of picking her from the line of 30? An ambassador of a country, a prospective terror suspect hiding something under her single drape Sari to blow up American citizens? Is they want to do their job as a serious security guard or they want some publicity ? Besides, the body patting has already been questioned by both male and female passengers for these TSA agent's tryst in feeling too much in the area of one's private restricted zone. Last year one white lady complained that one TSA lady was improperly feeling her breasts and in SF Airport many harassed male thought few of them are from Castro district.

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Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Postby arjunm » 10 Dec 2010 14:57

Czar at Large- a hilarious video on TSA's questionable feel good groping by Glenn Beck's program

http://www.glennbeck.com/content/articl ... 198/48484/

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Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Postby MChandraSekhar » 10 Dec 2010 16:10

http://www.hindustantimes.com/Ambassador-Shankar-s-frisking-CPI-M-advises-tit-for-tat/Article1-636733.aspx
Atleast someone in the political spectrum is talking harshly. Are these guys capable of bringing about this change in our airport security policy? If they introduce a bill in Parliament for this matter, wont the opposition support it?

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Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Postby Pratyush » 10 Dec 2010 16:33

Shudders: never thoght I will say this but the communists for whaterver reasons are the ones who may just end up saving the day. Shudders

sumishi
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Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Postby sumishi » 10 Dec 2010 16:41

arjunm wrote:Czar at Large- a hilarious video on TSA's questionable feel good groping by Glenn Beck's program

http://www.glennbeck.com/content/articl ... 198/48484/

That really sums it all. Not only do they put their "latexed" hands inside your pants in some airports (grope private parts) for those who opt out of the full body scanners (which give very high doses of radiation), but some reports claim that they often do not change the latex gloves between victims. Nice for spreading VDs, what?
There has been widespread outrage in the US over this.
TSA Hit With Lawsuits As Revolt Explodesl


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