India-US Strategic News and Discussion

[Philip]

HA!Ha! The US's great suspension of aid to Pak (immediately welcomed by India) hasn't even lasted a week,and this time supposedly because the Chinese intervened!The amount of space that the US is giving China in the affairs of the Indian sub-continent,no to mention "surrender Singh's " abject grovelling to the Middle Kingdom,is simply scandalous.China has now by default straddled the Himalayas and is firmly embedded in the affairs of Afghanistan,Kashmir,Sri Lanka and elsewhere in Burma and Nepal,where and atheist regime of the PRC is gifting a multi-billion $ project for Buddhism of all things! India being the home of the enlightened one,hasn't even the vision to have offered something to Nepal on these lines.It can do so in Lanka even at this late stage,after the Chinese have gifted so many projects to the island nation including the Bandaranaike international convention centre (BMICH),the Supreme Court,the Colombo art and cultural centre,built Hambantotat Port on soft loans,a huge pwower project at Norocholai,with certainly more on the anvil in time to come.Our MEA and IAS babudom have failed the nation dismally in recent decades and a thorough revamp ineeded but under the overlord ,one specimen called "Surrender Singh",

So much for the great Indo-US strategic dialogue.When the US is afraid of antagonising China and is surrendering to Chinese interests so pathetically,what chance does India have if it ties it sari to Uncle Sam's coattails especially while he is in full retreat in the region?

[Rony]

Indians as "high value" illegal immigrants

From the above article,

Many of the Indians apprehended are Sikhs, followers of India's fourth-largest religion, who tell authorities they face persecution back home and want asylum. Applicants need to convince officials that they have a credible fear of persecution in India. If so, the case is referred to an immigration judge.Such persecution was common in the mid-1980s, when the state battled a Sikh secessionist movement, Kumar said. But today the ruling party in Punjab is Akali Dal, a Sikh party, and Indian Prime Minister Manmohan Singh is also Sikh. "It's all nonsense," Kumar said of asylum claims.

[sanjaykumar]

I am waiting for Panjabi Hindus to claim persecution by Sikhs only.

[Bharath.Subramanyam]

Wanted to post on some surveys done on US population demographics:


Baby Boomers:
Born 1945 to 1964 (roughly age 45 yo 64)
Are peaking on House Hold income
Are switching spending to health and hardware


New Generation X
Born 1965 to 1984 (currently age 26 to 45)
Less in numbers than Boomers - It is an issue for disposable spending
Will be the main buyers by 2016

Gen Y (Millennials)
Born 1985 (er maybe 1980) or later
Very Low spend today - will be main buyers in 2036
Bad news: Born into prior generations debt. How will they overcome?
But born into digital world, so digital natives.


Boomers (Age 45-54) house holds usually spend around 12,600 per year
Boomers (Age 55 - 64) house holds usually spend around 11,100 per year
Gen X (Age 35-44) house holds 12,000 per year
Gen X (Age 25-34) house holds 9,730 per year
Gen Y (Age less than 25) house holds 6,300 per year

- Bureau of Labor Statistics , 2008 Consumer Expenditure Survey



Early Boomers (Age 56 -65) are 36 million in population, 26% multi-cultural, House hold size is 21 Million.

Late Boomers (Age 46-55) are 44 Million in population, 32% multi-cultural, house hold size is 25 million

Early Gen X (Age 36-45) are 41 Million in population, 40% multi-cultural, house hold size is 22 million

Late Gen X (Age 26-35) are 41 million in population, 41% multi cultural, house hold size is 19 million


Gen X will be largest spenders by 2016.

Boomers:
Huge opportunity in Health sector (pharma, healthy food etc.
All products should aim for easy ergonomics for all ages and easy accessibility.

Gen X:
Realistic, work hard, pragmatic. want marriage to work. They like things that are fun, edgy, sarcastic messages.
from 2020 , it will be Gen X domination up to 2035.

Gen Y:
only quarter of graduates have jobs when graduating. Main worry is lingering low wages who start their earning live in recession times. Also worried about supporting a parent.

Usually spends 200 mins in Tv, 50 in computer, 25 in video games, 20 in internet, 13 min in mobile video. Teens text more and talk less in cell phones.
-----------------------------------------------

Mainly multi-generational households are coming back. 16% of house hold are multi-generational households compared 15% (ten years back)

In 2030, there will be fewer big money shopper. By 2030 more elderly (65 above) population than young people (0 to 14).


Division ('conflicts') among people (perception)
- 55% of people feel there is strong resistance between immigrants and people born in US
- 47% of people feel there is strong resistance between rich & poor
- 39% of people fee there is strong resistance between Afro-Americans & Caucasians
- 26% of people feel there is strong resistance between young & old.

- Pew Research Center 'What Divides Americans?'

[nataraja]

I am waiting for Panjabi Hindus to claim persecution by Sikhs only.

I am not sure if anybody else has noticed this or not. But the Sikhs in the US maintain a fairly distinct and segregated identity from other Indians. Not only are they not seen in large numbers in any Indian social or other functions, they mostly claim and identify themselves to the Americans as "from Punjab", as opposed to from India.

There is almost a superiority complex in their dealings with other Indians in the US and a lot of times, they carry an expression of contempt when they meet other Indians, particularly the South Indians.

The Sikh organizations in the US convinced the famed Smithsonian institution in Washington to create a permanent exhibit in the Museum of Natural History labeled "Sikh Heritage Exhibit", which I visited a few months ago. I was shocked to see absolutely no references to India or any relationship with India, just references to Punjab as the homeland of the Sikhs. If one didnt know about South Asian Geography and history, he would come away from this exhibit believing that Punajab is a separate country and the Sikhs have no relation whatsoever with India. I believe it is a permanent exhibit and still is on display at the Musuem of Natural History in Washington DC and anyone can go and see it for themselves. I am also mentioning a link below that may be of interest.

http://www.sikhsentinel.com/sikhsentine ... hfmain.htm

Have not noticed this much at all in places that I have lived in India. Hyderabad, Banglore, Patna, Bhopal etc, Sikhs are very well integrated and act quite normally.

Just my personal observations.

[Rangudu]

^^ Not sure you can generalize like that. I have several close buddies who are Sikhs and we meet, attend each others' functions etc. like any other group of Indian friends here in the US. Bigotry, sub-national identity can be seen in many subsets of Indian Americans but I'm not sure you can generalize.

[nataraja]

^^ Not sure you can generalize like that. I have several close buddies who are Sikhs and we meet, attend each others' functions etc. like any other group of Indian friends here in the US. Bigotry, sub-national identity can be seen in many subsets of Indian Americans but I'm not sure you can generalize.

Agreed.

Not generalizing at all.

Like I said in the post. Just relating my experiences.

Happy to know that others have had better experiences and my own experiences on this issue are a one off.

[CRamS]

R-man,

you are probably right, but I wonder if you have ever lived in NJ/NY area. Most of the gas-station operators are Sikh in NJ, and lots Sikh cabbies in NYC. And as nataraja said, they mostly identify themselves as from Punjab, not India. Now, in my case, I feel more empathy and sorry for them in that they work their asses off, suffer the worst indignities in being mistaken for Muslims etc, and yet soldier on.

I don't know about their loyalty etc, but I have noticed that lots of NRI Sikhs resent this notion that there is similarity between Sikihism and Hinduism. They want their independent identity. And thats why I tell my Hindu friends in US to not push this if it offends Sikhs, whether or not they believe it to be true.

For e.g., there was this function organozed by Hindu community elders at the Venkateswara Temple in Bridgewater, NJ to explain Hinduism to whites and others. Lost of scholarly talks on Vedanta, Hindu philosophy etc. But when when someone suggested how similar Sikhism and Hinduism are, almost all the Sikhs in the audience were livid and created a raucous, they interpreted that as trivializing their faith and robbing it of their identity. It was not the intent of the Hindu scholars, but thats how the NRI Sikhs presnet interpeted it. As I sensitive as I was to their feelings, I sensed a touch of Taliban-style fanatiscism; I mean there was not a prejudiced bone among the Hindus, but yet their virulent anger was ugly. The Americans were naturally amused; they left laughing their asses off, a glimpse of uruly India onlee .

[nataraja]

CRAMS said - I don't know about their loyalty etc, but I have noticed that lots of NRI Sikhs resent this notion that there is similarity between Sikihism and Hinduism. They want their independent identity. And thats why I tell my Hindu friends in US to not push this if it offends Sikhs, whether or not they believe it to be true.

I totally agree with that.

We must be extremely sensitive and not push it.

[Cosmo_R]

@CRS ^^^: "I sensed a touch of Taliban-style fanatiscism; I mean there was not a prejudiced bone among the Hindus,"

Do you realize the irony in that single sentence?

Especially coming after this:

"I don't know about 'their' loyalty etc, ..."

A few choice words come to mind but I'd settle for asking "...to whom? you? or your view of whom 'they' should be loyal to?

When an Indian asks me where are you from? I know what he/she means is what part of India are you from?

If a non-Indian asks me the same question, I know what they are asking is what country are you from?

So to you they would naturally say 'Punjab'. I would respond Bangalore, Kerala. Are my 'loyalties' suspect?

Please spare us the Clouseau-like bumbling. You are spreading FUD with the best of uninformed intentions and wreaking havoc.

The Hindu Scholars at Bridgewater Temple (I've been there) also need a lesson in diplomacy: Hinduism shares (repeat shares) certain common values with Sikhism and Buddhism and .....Or we share many beliefs/principles...

And not Sikhism and Buddhism are based on Hinduism which is what the Sikh audience hears.

CRS, I know you have vast experience with/of the US, India, etc. and I am humbled. So I say this tentatively, caringly and with unbounded trepidation: " Lighten Up!" Please!

[Rangudu]

If I were a Sikh, I'd be offended too to hear someone equate my faith with another (even if there is historical links). The assertion of differences is more pronounced in diaspora in many cultures - this is not just a Hindu-Sikh thing.

[nataraja]

If I were a Sikh, I'd be offended too to hear someone equate my faith with another (even if there is historical links). The assertion of differences is more pronounced in diaspora in many cultures - this is not just a Hindu-Sikh thing.
If I were a Sikh, I'd be offended too to hear someone equate my faith with another (even if there is historical links). The assertion of differences is more pronounced in diaspora in many cultures - this is not just a Hindu-Sikh thing

Why would you be offended if someone equated your faith with their own. It would seem to me, that it is an act of granting respect to you, if I said that my faith is akin to yours. In essence, I am saying that I have as much respect for your faith as I have for mine.

Why would anyone get offended with that, no matter how you interpret that statement ?

Also, you misread what CRams has said. Let me quote him below for your benefit. He did not say that someone equated their faith with Sikhism. He said that someone suggested similarities between Hinduism and Sikhism. What is offensive about that ? Dont you think there are similarities between Hinduism and Sikhism ? Just like there are between Buddhism and Hinduism and Jainism and Hinduism ?

Would it have been more correct to assert that Sikhism and Hinduism have nothing in common. Would that not be patently false. Would that also not create a divide, rather than bringing people together ?

R-man,
But when when someone suggested how similar Sikhism and Hinduism are, almost all the Sikhs in the audience were livid and created a raucous, they interpreted that as trivializing their faith and robbing it of their identity. It was not the intent of the Hindu scholars, but thats how the NRI Sikhs presnet interpeted it. -).

[SaiK]

Our local sardarji is a role model. He is more yindoo than me, and knows more tamil than I can read or write. He is a carnatic music fan, and hindustani singer. He is an ardent devotee at the hindu temple.

Generalization is bad habit for many "only born once" desis.

[nataraja]

@CRS ^^^: "I sensed a touch of Taliban-style fanatiscism; I mean there was not a prejudiced bone among the Hindus,"

When an Indian asks me where are you from? I know what he/she means is what part of India are you from?

If a non-Indian asks me the same question, I know what they are asking is what country are you from?

So to you they would naturally say 'Punjab'. I would respond Bangalore, Kerala. Are my 'loyalties' suspect?

Please spare us the Clouseau-like bumbling. You are spreading FUD with the best of uninformed intentions and wreaking havoc.

The Hindu Scholars at Bridgewater Temple (I've been there) also need a lesson in diplomacy: Hinduism shares (repeat shares) certain common values with Sikhism and Buddhism and .....Or we share many beliefs/principles...

And not Sikhism and Buddhism are based on Hinduism which is what the Sikh audience hears.

CRS, I know you have vast experience with/of the US, India, etc. and I am humbled. So I say this tentatively, caringly and with unbounded trepidation: " Lighten Up!" Please!

Cosmos......why a personal attack ? Why did his post bother you, when you ourself misread it and also make blatantly illogical statements.

1. Sikhs dont just respond to other Indians that they are from Punjab. In fact, my dear Watson, almost no Indian needs to ask most Sikhs where they are from. They wear where they are from on their person, which is visible from a mile away. I have seen them respond to Americans by saying they are from Punajab. And I have seen it over a 25 year period. In fact, I have not seen a single Sikh responding to an American by saying that they are from India in the last 25 years of my experience. I stress my experience, someone else's may be different.

2. You are saying that when a Hindu scholar says that there are similarities between Hindu and Sikh faiths, the Sikhs really hear that Sikhism is based on Hinduism. Is that a problem of the Hindu scholars not being diplomtic that the Sikhs hear something totally different than what is being spoken to ?

3. The Sikh exhibit in Smithsonian which barely mentions India, is meant for all the people in the World, not Indians. This is not an exhibit in Jaipur or Agra, but here in Washington that anyone can go and see.

I just find it amusing that you choose to feign false anger in the interest of what you falsely consider political correctness, while making so many illogical and factually incorrect statements.

I suggest you can correct people more gently rather than personally attacking them or their motives. In my experience, that saves a lot of embarrasment later on, if one is wrong.

[nataraja]

Our local sardarji is a role model. He is more yindoo than me, and knows more tamil than I can read or write. He is a carnatic music fan, and hindustani singer. He is an ardent devotee at the hindu temple.

Generalization is bad habit for many "only born once" desis.

Where do you see what you term, "generalization" ? Please be intellectually honest and fair, rather than slandering someone.

[SaiK]

Damn.. the weather is so hot & humid in USA.. what is happening? This year drastic weather pattern changes from scary freezes, terror tornadoes, no spring (none of my crab apples, peaches, and dwarf apples flowered), and now it is hot like hell.

IB4TL/100

[abhishek_sharma]

Continued Primacy, Diminished Will: Indian Assessments of U.S. Power

See Pages 56-65

[svinayak]

^^ Not sure you can generalize like that. I have several close buddies who are Sikhs and we meet, attend each others' functions etc. like any other group of Indian friends here in the US. Bigotry, sub-national identity can be seen in many subsets of Indian Americans but I'm not sure you can generalize.

How it is presented to the western audience is the problem. This is like Yoga with no reference to India at all in most publications. There is a baggage but also they want to remove the "idea of India" in the mind of the US people.

Some of this is long term but there is a focused effort to change the perception. There is money and money in the US political process for the problems in India such as asylum, persecution and seperatism = khalistan, etc.

[JE Menon]

Nataraja,

I'm not sure about the purpose of your post about your quarter century of personal experience with Sikhs who told Americans they were from Punjab - rather than India. As you have yourself mentioned, you may be quite unique in this respect. Others have immediately confirmed that, indeed, their experience does not match yours. Neither does mine, not by a long shot. I'm skeptical about the purpose of the question itself to begin with because certainly we can each justify our own prejudices on the basis of personal experience - a bit like meeting an outspoken racist in America now. While they exist, I would be loath to classify all Americans, or even most of them, in that category.

What do you expect to hear? That others had similar experience to yours? Well, I'm sure that you will find some. Just as there are Hindus who can be complete oiseaules without any sort of sensitivity towards the feelings of Sikhs (it appears CRamS is unique in meeting Hindus "without a prejudiced bone" as well), there are Sikhs (and others) who feel they must distance themselves from India and all things "Indian"; but this is a dying breed, quite literally. On the other hand, if you ask who are among the most nationalist people in India, chances are the Sikhs will be right up there as well.

So the purpose of your post is quite mystifying to me.

[CRamS]

it appears CRamS is unique in meeting Hindus "without a prejudiced bone" as well

I meant those gathered at the event. Not in general.

[JE Menon]

I know what you meant.

But how do you know there was no prejudiced bone on any of the Hindus there? There is no way of knowing whether a person is entirely un-prejudiced from an event of I guess a few hours, given that you must have interacted extensively with all of them. What you mean is that you did not see anything among all the Hindus attending that event that indicated to you that they were prejudiced. But this does not mean that they were not. You know, and I know that Hindus can be as prejudiced, or not, as anyone else. There is nothing special about us Hindus that makes uniquely without prejudices.

Similarly, I find it difficult to accept that there is something about the Sikhs in the US that make them uniformly prejudiced against India, or Indians, "particularly South Indians".

[SaiK]

This wrong information and misinformation about India by many firangs is bewildering.. these are the following I hear, every time, even over a happy hour mug of beer. I counter these scums so badly, and they immediately take it to caste system. I was also p!ssed by my fella desi Indian (SI/malloo/IITian), would not support me, rather join the firangs about caste system and untouchability evils still exists in desh...btw, it always ends in snake charmer nation, and I am losing the battle with many elites if I go with fella deshman, on such views.

snake charmers exists, so do red necks.
untouchability exists, so do you don't blindly give me a hug or will not allow me to dine without formals.
hindu caste system is evil, so do you abrahamics have so many sects, that are evil against liberalism.

african americans have been subdued, and only a few have flourished by the theory of chance.
under the capitalistic banner, trillions are swindled.. health care system is a scam. social security is eaten, and there is no genuine equal oppty on race.

native americans still live in segregated areas.. no genuine freedom. their history smells worse than Indian caste system.
--
btw, I am happy not all share the same view. It is more on the east coast and especially north-east.

[RajeshA]

Well sometimes Germans say, "Ihr habt ja viele Kasten, oder?" (You've got many castes, right?)
And I just answer, "Man braucht viele Kasten, ansonsten ist Bier gleich allee!" (One needs a lot of crates otherwise Beer is soon finished)!

A little wordplay does the trick!

Probably in English, I might say something like "our films are big-budget and we can afford many!"