India-US Strategic News and Discussion

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arjunm
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Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Postby arjunm » 29 Jan 2011 12:35

US may allow India to acquire its fifth generation jets

[quote]WASHINGTON: The US is open to Indian participation in its Joint Strike Fighter programme that would finally lead to its purchase of fifth generation F-35 Lightning II stealth fighter, a top Pentagon official said Thursday.
"There is nothing on our side, no principle which bars that on our side, Indian participation in the Joint Strike Fighter. Right now, they're focused on these aircraft which are top-of-the-line fourth-gen fighters," under secretary of defence for acquisition, technology and logistics Ashton Carter said.

Headed to India in the coming weeks, Carter said the decision to pursue the F-35 is to be taken by India only.
Carter was delivering a key-note address on "US-India Defense Relations" at the Carnegie Endowment for International Peace, on the occasion of the release of a report on India's Medium Multi-Role Combat Aircraft (MMRCA) program.
At a cost of about USD 10 billion for 126 aircraft, the MMRCA competition is the largest Indian fighter tender in years.
Eight countries and six companies eagerly await the outcome of the selection process, which has garnered high-profile attention for its sheer size, its international political implications, and its impact on the viability of key aircraft manufacturers.

Carter argued that US-built F-16 and F/A-18 as being the most technologically advanced aircraft in the competition.

"I think that, without saying anything disparaging about the other entrants, both F/A-18 and the F-16 offers include the best technology," he said.
Authored by Ashley Tellis, the report says that in choosing an aircraft, the government of India must employ a speedy decision process that is focused on the right metrics, taking both technical and political considerations into account.

Tellis in his over 140 page report notes that the European aircraft are technically superb, but the US entrants prove to be formidable "best buys".

If Washington wants an American aircraft to win the game, however, it will need to offer generous terms on the transfer of technology, assure India access to fifth-generation US combat aircraft, and provide strong support for India's strategic ambitions--to counter the perception that the older US designs in the MMRCA race are less combat effective, the report notes.

http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/new ... on/us-may-

Johann
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Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Postby Johann » 29 Jan 2011 22:36

ramana wrote:So far noting has appeared in the wiki pees to warrant the US informing GOI about potential damaging leaks! Either they have more to come or were indulging in strategic ally melodrama!


The vast bulk of the documents have not been released yet.

Every single cable that's been released has been reviewed by Wikileaks - while they relish releasing politically embarrassing information, they claim they try to leave out names and sources that would actually get people killed.

WL has a pretty small staff, and they're all under intense legal, political and economic pressure, so its slowed the flow of cables. That's really the USG's strategy at this point - keep them busy fighting to survive. Assange's threat to dump the entire unfiltered archive on the internet if anything happens to him, or he is sent to prison is probably a serious one.

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Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Postby CRamS » 29 Jan 2011 23:26

India students radio tagged. What a shameful spectacle this, and the sad part is that other than "urging", India has no other recourse.


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Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Postby milindc » 30 Jan 2011 12:57

CRamS wrote:India students radio tagged. What a shameful spectacle this, and the sad part is that other than "urging", India has no other recourse.


What is shameful is that these student let themselves to be radio tagged and not leave US immediately... Its not as if they didn't have a choice

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Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Postby Philip » 30 Jan 2011 14:14

Where is the voice of that great former UN stalwart and Cong.Minister,Shashi Tharoor,infamous for his "cattle class" statement? A deafening silence from him right now while Indian students are treated like cattle by American cowboys? American tourists should be similarly tagged in return, but alas....we all know that our current leadership has been castrated by Uncle Sam!

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Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Postby AKalam » 30 Jan 2011 14:57

http://voices.washingtonpost.com/right-turn/2011/01/during_the_2010_campaign_i.html

Rand Paul neo-isolationism widely condemned
By Jennifer Rubin

During the 2010 campaign I repeatedly raised concerns that Rand Paul, now the Republican senator from Kentucky, was a proponent of a neo-isolationist foreign policy. That concern has now been borne out. In an interview on CNN he proposed cutting off aid to Israel. Ha'aretz reports:

In an interview to CNN's Wolf Blitzer on Wednesday Paul said that "Reuters did a poll, 71 percent of American people agree with me that when we're short of money, where we can't do the things we need to do in our country, we certainly shouldn't be shipping the money overseas."

When asked by Blitzer if he wants to halt an annual $3 billion that go to Israel, Paul replied affirmatively, explaining that Egypt gets almost the same amount adding that "you have to ask yourself, are we funding an arms race on both sides? I have a lot of sympathy and respect for Israel as a democratic nation, as, you know, a fountain of peace and a fountain of democracy within the Middle East. But at the same time, I don't think funding both sides of the arm race, particularly when we have to borrow the money from China to send it to someone else. We just can't do it anymore. The debt is all-consuming, and it threatens our well-being as a country."

Groups ranging from J Street to the Republican Jewish Coalition have raised the alarm. That is a good sign that Israel enjoys widespread political support across the political spectrum. (J Street's position is a bit confusing, however. J Street wants to give Israel money but condemn the Jewish state in the U.N.? Can't quite fathom that one.)

Paul is outside the mainstream of elected leaders and the American public. Both are overwhelmingly supportive of the aid we supply to our democratic ally and understand that the U.S. cannot withdraw from the region. A final note, Rep. Nita Lowey (D-N.Y.) attempted to fan partisan fires by asking "whether Rand Paul speaks for the Tea Party, the Republican Party, or simply himself." He surely doesn't speak for Republicans (in fact is not on the Foreign Affairs, Appropriations or Budget Committees) on this, just as Democrats like Rep. Pete Stark (D-Calif.), Rep. John Conyers (D- Mich.), and Rep. Jim McDermott (D.-Wash.) don't represent mainstream Democrats on Israel. Shame on her.


The comments for the article in above link are interesting to say the least.

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Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Postby Philip » 30 Jan 2011 15:58

Yes,funding an arms race between India and Pak too,but this time the US is not borrowing from China to fund the Egyptians and Israelis,but using the profits of arms sold to India to gift the arms sold,sorry....sent to Pak! This is a win-win situ for the US and Pak (becasue it hrlpd neutralises any Indian miliatry advantage-posseessing similar US weaponry) and cannot happen unless some in India at the highest level are indulging in treason.

Johann,the US can stop interfering in the internal affairs of other nations first.It has no God-given right to do so.Here in Egypt,it has effectively destroyed a potential enemy of Israel,beggaring it in the process,dividing the country and wanting to put in place a puppet like El Baradei! The flames it has helped lit in Egypt will spread far into the Arab/Muslim world and while their might be short-term gains,in the long term it will only help Islamic extremism to spread faster and in a more deadly manner.

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Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Postby nvishal » 30 Jan 2011 20:53

I thought i remembered reading about this man before. Here is the previous post on him on BRF

A picture of him from june 22, 2009 at the Mahatma Gandhi national monument
Image

American political activist who idolised Gandhi dies after setting fire to himself in India
American political activist Jeff Knaebel has committed suicide by setting himself on fire in northern India.

The 71-year-old was found by villagers on Wednesday at an ancient Buddhist chapel in Virat Nagar, a town 90 miles north of Jaipur, police said.

Knaebel, who idolised Gandhi, left a suicide note blaming cruel incidents in both the United States and India.

He did not give any further explanation for his death, but did leave behind around 48,000 rupees ($1,000).

He also left a shoulder bag containing glasses, books on Gandhi and a note asking that the money was given to poor widows and farmers, according to police.

He had been spotted in the town three days earlier and was seen by villagers wearing an Indian-style long cotton shirt, woolen sweater and a scarf.

It is understood he may have timed his death to coincide with India's Republic Day, which celebrates the signing of the country's constitution.

He had previously been denied asylum in the country and had had an application for citizenship denied.

Knaebel was travelling across the country to avoid being arrested for not having any documentation.

'Citizenship denial and harassment by police ... made him a very desperate person, but he continued to believe in the principles of Gandhi and often said he would never return to the U.S. and would die in India,' his friend and fellow engineer V.K. Desai told the Associated Press.

Desai remembered Knaebel as an intelligent and honorable man who delighted in nature, gave his money to the poor, and worried increasingly about inviting police action against his friends if he stayed with them on his travels.

Knaebel was identified from a passport issued in July by the World Government of World Citizens, an organisation based in Washington, D.C..

His body now lies in a hospital morgue, police said. The U.S. Embassy declined to comment for privacy reasons.

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Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Postby Hitesh » 30 Jan 2011 21:44

Setting fire to himself over policies of US and the western world isn't gonna do anything but deflect away the real problem, which is that he was mentally unstable and thus whacko.

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Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Postby Abhi_G » 30 Jan 2011 22:05


RamaY
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Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Postby RamaY » 30 Jan 2011 22:22

^MMS can sleep now

nvishal
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Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Postby nvishal » 30 Jan 2011 22:33

Hitesh wrote:Setting fire to himself over policies of US and the western world isn't gonna do anything but deflect away the real problem, which is that he was mentally unstable and thus whacko.

Probably yes. He wasn't looking to become a citizen of india but had utopian aspirations of how the world should be.

His last letter
http://www.gandhitopia.org/profiles/blo ... e=activity

Check out his wifes comment at the bottom of the page

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Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Postby JwalaMukhi » 30 Jan 2011 22:44

Quite a bit of murky things have happened here. Are students naive or were they thinking rules could be flouted and they could get away with that?
http://www.mercurynews.com/top-stories/ci_17151508
According to the complaint, more than 95 percent of students were from India. For more than half of them, the university reported their address was a single apartment in Sunnyvale. The apartment manager told ICE agents that four university students lived there from June 2007 to August 2009 and none since.

Investigators believe TVU reported that most of its students live at the apartment to conceal they don't live in the state.

For a student to maintain the immigration status, they must show proof they are making reasonable process toward completing coursework and physically attend classes.

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Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Postby rsingh » 30 Jan 2011 22:55

[b]US may allow India to acquire its fifth generation jets[
WASHINGTON: The US is open to Indian participation in its Joint Strike Fighter programme that would finally lead to its purchase of fifth generation F-35 Lightning II stealth fighter, a top Pentagon official said Thursday.
"There is nothing on our side, no principle which bars that on our side, Indian participation in the Joint Strike Fighter. Right now, they're focused on these aircraft which are top-of-the-line fourth-gen fighters," under secretary of defence for acquisition, technology and logistics Ashton Carter said.

Headed to India in the coming weeks, Carter said the decision to pursue the F-35 is to be taken by India only.
Carter was delivering a key-note address on "US-India Defense Relations" at the Carnegie Endowment for International Peace, on the occasion of the release of a report on India's Medium Multi-Role Combat Aircraft (MMRCA) program.
At a cost of about USD 10 billion for 126 aircraft, the MMRCA competition is the largest Indian fighter tender in years.
Eight countries and six companies eagerly await the outcome of the selection process, which has garnered high-profile attention for its sheer size, its international political implications, and its impact on the viability of key aircraft manufacturers.


India not interested :(( :((
NEW DELHI: India has no plans as of now to either join the US-led joint strike fighter (JSF) programme or buy the F-35 `Lightning-II' fifth-generation fighter aircraft (FGFA) when it finally becomes operational.

"We cannot have two types of FGFA. We have already launched preliminary work for our FGFA after inking the $295 million preliminary design contract (PDC) with Russia last month,'' said a top defence ministry official on Friday.

This comes in the wake of comments made by a top Pentagon official, undersecretary of defence for acquisition, technology and logistics Ashton Carter, in Washington that the US was open to Indian participation in its JSF project.

Interestingly, the comments came during a function where an aggressive sales pitch was made for India to select either the American F/A-18 `Super Hornet' ( Boeing) or F-16 `Falcon' ( Lockheed Martin) over their European rivals in the ongoing IAF's medium multi-role combat aircraft (MMRCA) contest.

The other 4.5-generation fighters in the hotly-contested race to bag the $10.4 billion MMRCA project, under which 18 jets will be bought off-the-shelf and another 108 will be manufactured in India under transfer of technology, are Eurofighter Typhoon, Swedish Gripen (Saab), French Rafale (Dassault) and Russian MiG-35 (United Aircraft Corporation).

The IAF force matrix for the coming years revolves around the 270 Sukhoi-30MKIs contracted from Russia for around $12 billion, the 126 MMRCA and 120 indigenous Tejas Light Combat Aircraft, apart from upgraded MiG-29s and Mirage-2000s.

In the decades ahead, the advanced stealth FGFA to be developed with Russia will be the mainstay of India's combat fleet. "Our FGFA will be cheaper than the F-35. Moreover, the intellectual property rights of the FGFA will equally and jointly vest on both India and Russia, with full access to the source code and the like,'' said another senior official.

With a potent mix of super-manoeuvrability and supersonic cruising ability, the "swing-role'' FGFA will of course not come cheap. The cost of designing, infrastructure build-up, prototype development and flight testing has been pegged at around $11 billion, with India and Russia chipping in with $5.5 billion each.

Over and above this, each of the 250-300 FGFA India hopes to begin inducting from 2020 onwards will cost around $100 million each. In all, India will spend upwards of $35 billion over the next two decades in its biggest-ever defence project till now.

The Indian FGFA will primarily be based on the single-seater Sukhoi T-50, the prototype of which is already flying in Russia, but will include a twin-seater version and a more powerful engine with greater thrust.

"Its complete design will be frozen by the end of the 18-month PDC. Six to seven of its prototypes should be flying by 2017. After that, there will be 2,500 hours of flight-testing over 25 months before the series production begins in 2019,'' he said.


India rejects US offer of JSF
:(( :((

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Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Postby AnimeshP » 30 Jan 2011 23:10

Since the general consensus on BRF is that GoI is incompetent and weak when it comes to dealing with the US, how about our BRF members who are US citizens writing to their congressmen or senators to complain about the treatment meted out to Indian students by the ICE authorities?

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Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Postby ramana » 30 Jan 2011 23:23

ICE is the only outlaw agency. all other agencies are under control but since they deal with non citizens one cant get anyone to address their misdeeds.

The most arrogant in ICE are Indian origin workers even at janitor level.

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Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Postby Abhi_G » 30 Jan 2011 23:30

The students are victims of a corrupt nexus between the authorities and this sham university. The sham university took large amounts of money from the students to get papers for student visas. Corrupt officials must have issued those papers after taking money from the sham university.

The students must have had their visa interviews based on those papers (assuming they were on normal student visas- BRFites from US univs can tell more about this). from the US consulates in India. Now since this is a big scam involving the authorities, focus had been diverted to portray victims as perpetrators - "collaborators" are there, same old story of mughal-brit raj...

The students must have realized the scam when they landed in the US. Choosing to stay on was a mistake on their part, but again they are victims of a corrupt nexus where they paid money and definitely wanted to get that back by staying on....

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Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Postby JwalaMukhi » 30 Jan 2011 23:47

Ajatshatru wrote:Are you trying to hint here that the students brought it upon themselves and thus deserve to be treated in such a humiliating and inhumane manner?

Nothing the students may have done still gives an excuse to tag them as if they are some common criminals.... So let us not try to deflect the gravity of such a questionable act by, perhaps, subtly trying to shift the focus (and thus the entire blame) on the students.

Few things first.
Treatment of Indians in such inhumane manner didn't arise with this incident. There have been very similar incidents where guys who were working based on visa at different locations were rounded up as criminals, although no fault of their own. They were circulated to client sites by the company. Nothing seemed to have come of that from GOI protestations.
Unless, one has voting voice, the concerns of immigrants will be inconsequential in U.S.

No leaping to connect what was said to mean that somebody deserves that is not just stretching but expression of frustration at the wrong tree.

Boss, the students need to have more common sense - that is not to be disputed. The high handedness happens because that only legally allowed recourse by the US to express the rage against non-citizens. If for a moment laws of the land in US were to be laxed, this treatment of non-citizens would start looking like good farewell party. There is enough pent up rage against others, which is only checked by the laws. Remember MLK saying that laws will not make whites to start having bonhomie with blacks, it will only prevent them from lynching. That's all there is to it.
The ambit of law is weak in protecting non-citizens. It is easy path to see bare knuckles behind the mask in situations such as this.
So, it is bad situation for Indian (non citizen) students to be in such a situation. Luckily, they didn't end up in some prison where many inmates are constantly on the prowl to make fresh entrants into the prison, as their girlfriends. For some reason if law breaks down, even Indian origin people (who are citizens) will face the brunt. But that's not the point.
The issue is lack of common sense and common knowledge displayed such as in this case, will put people in perilious situations.
So what has and can GOI do, that is different from what they did with the previous case when Indians were rounded up as criminals not so recently?

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Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Postby JwalaMukhi » 31 Jan 2011 00:17

Ajatshatru wrote:So let us not try to deflect the gravity of such a questionable act

It is not questionable, it is condemnable and not deserving of civilized people. Period.
But, is the frustration because one's romantic world view is shattered by reality. Some hard facts:
1) Racism in US - is alive and kicking. It surfaces at opportune moments for people to become aware of that. Laws are preventing/masking them.

2) Neglect in India - most of them are looking for middle class aspirations to get decent education, which is artificially stunted within India. Such neglect is forcing students to even try getting education courses such as in face painting, basket weaving and baking in countries such as Oz land and unkil land.

3) Lack of Blacklistings - non publication of blacklisted universities to aspiring students. Travel, education advisory to students.

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Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Postby Manny » 31 Jan 2011 00:36

Students joined sham US university to dodge rules

Hundreds of Indian students who have gotten scammed by a dodgy California-based university had it coming. Tri-Valley University (TVU) had a reputation as a "Diploma Mill" that offered a spurious route to employment and immigration in the US.

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/worl ... 393658.cms

TVU and similar schools had a "well-earned" reputation of shortening the process by offering OPT/CPT from day one – which meant "students" could get on the employment track even as they began "college." In fact, TVU didn't even have a campus in the traditional sense. It had a solitary, sorry-looking building, bought in April 2010, which housed everything from administrative offices to classrooms, from which random lectures were transmitted over the internet to "students" across the US, including those working other jobs. Under current US law, students cannot take only online courses while on an F-1 status, a scam TVU managed to perpetrate.

Founded by Susan Xiao-Ping Su and run mainly by Chinese Christians, with a few Indians in the "faculty," the school boasted that its mission "is to make Christian scientists, engineers, business leaders and lawyers for the glory of God, with both solid academic professionalism and Christian faith, therefore to live out Christ-like characters, value and compassion in the world, to make an impact and shine as its light."

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Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Postby putnanja » 31 Jan 2011 00:51

Abhi_G wrote:The students are victims of a corrupt nexus between the authorities and this sham university. The sham university took large amounts of money from the students to get papers for student visas. Corrupt officials must have issued those papers after taking money from the sham university.
...


Radio-collar tagging is bad, they shouldn't be doing that to any student.

That being said, I think the students too had an inkling that the university wasn't all that it is made out to be. And the fact that more than 90% of the students are from AP also raises a red flag. I have seen that proportion of AP people is pretty high when it comes to people using dubious means of getting US visas, like fake transcripts, experience certificates etc. I myself had couple of AP guys tell me there is nothing wrong in fake certificates or experience certificates and they themselves came that way to US. And there are many consultants run by people from AP, who have qualms about asking potential candidates to add more experience, faking it if necessary. My wife too was asked to do similar thing by a consultant company, but we decided to not continue with that consultant at all! We also know some people from AP who had come on H4 with no experience whatsoever, but still managed to get H1b based on fake experience from such consultant and also got a job on contract!

In this particular case of fake university, I wouldn't assume that all the students are totally innocent. Probably a fraction of them got conned, but majority would have gone into it with eyes open

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Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Postby JwalaMukhi » 31 Jan 2011 02:33

Your initial post, I am afraid, may have left very little room for interpretation as to what you meant exactly in your initial post on this matter in issue and when the other person pointed out to your, perhaps, misguided effort of 'trying to vent your anger at the wrong tree' (i.e. trying to blame the victim), as an afterthought, you are trying to cover up/defend the indefensible (your initial post) in subsequent post(s). Enough said....


^ Each to his own. Playing victim is a not a good substitute for commonsense...

Founded by Susan Xiao-Ping Su and run mainly by Chinese Christians, with a few Indians in the "faculty," the school boasted that its mission "is to make Christian scientists, engineers, business leaders and lawyers for the glory of God, with both solid academic professionalism and Christian faith, therefore to live out Christ-like characters, value and compassion in the world, to make an impact and shine as its light."

Yes siree, one needs a chinese christist to teach all about christian faith in US. In the land of mullahs, one would join innocently an institution, to learn about islamic oriented education run by converted buddhists.

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Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Postby putnanja » 31 Jan 2011 04:10

Duped Indian students ignored red flags

...
But eager beavers looking for a short cut to emigrating to the US through a questionable academic route ignored the red flags. After US authorities busted the scam, an estimated 1500 students, some of them gullible victims, some of them scheming immigrant hopefuls, face financial loss, loss of credits, loss of time, loss of face, and in some cases, even face deportation.

...
...
But in recent years, several dodgy universities have come up which waive GRE/GMAT requirements as long as students can pay thousands of dollars up front in the form of various 'fees.' More pertinently, these colleges dubiously facilitate Optical Practical Training (OPT) and Curricular Practical Training (CPT), the two routes to employment at the end of the college degree, from the first day of enrollment.
...
..
TVU and similar schools had a "well-earned" reputation of shortening the process by offering OPT/CPT from day one – which meant "students" could get on the employment track even as they began "college." In fact, TVU didn't even have a campus in the traditional sense. It had a solitary, sorry-looking building, bought in April 2010, which housed everything from administrative offices to classrooms, from which random lectures were transmitted over the internet to "students" across the US, including those working other jobs. Under current US law, students cannot take only online courses while on an F-1 status, a scam TVU managed to perpetrate
...
...
But while there is the usual outrage and fire-spitting in India over the radio collar issue, it turns out that not all students are as gullible as was initially made out. Speaking on background, community leaders, attorneys, and even some students acknowledged that many people knew the whole process was questionable. One giveaway: According to representatives of the Telugu Association of North America (TANA), an estimated 95 per cent of the TVU admissions from India are from Andhra Pradesh, a fact that has prompted TANA to arrange legal representation for the students. "They are young kids whose future will be ruined. They are our people after all. We have to help them," says TANA's Jayaram Komati. According to one student, most victims paid up to $ 2800 per semester to Tri-Valley, some of them paying as much as $ 16,000 up front for a full course to obtain a shady degree.

The growing sense among officials and even the Indian community is that many students knew what they were getting into but still risked it. "They know what the rules are - problem is, some of them work within the Indian mentality that the rules are made to be avoided and that the government is a nuisance, not a power to be reckoned with," Nandita Ruchandani, a New York-area immigration attorney who has dealt with such cases, told ToI. Still, many attorneys, some of them working pro bono, are offering to help the students. Two attorneys arranged by TANA in the Bay Area are now working on several Tri-Valley cases.

...
....


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Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Postby JwalaMukhi » 31 Jan 2011 04:21

Ajatshatru wrote:
Playing victim


Of course, of course.... the Indian students being tagged are just, according to you, 'playing victim'. :roll:

Let time be the arbiter of the situation. More will come out in due course. One thing one can be sure of, it's not going to take forever for this case to be solved. Will know if students walked into the trap knowingly or are innocent bystanders who just experienced complete bad luck.

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Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Postby svinayak » 31 Jan 2011 04:29

JwalaMukhi wrote:
Of course, of course.... the Indian students being tagged are just, according to you, 'playing victim'. :roll:
Let time be the arbiter of the situation. More will come out in due course. One thing one can be sure of, it's not going to take forever for this case to be solved. Will know if students walked into the trap knowingly or are innocent bystanders who just experienced complete bad luck.

I met some similar students from similar small universities. They know the rules and they even advised my friend not to use this route to enter US. Usually they transfer from Australia or other third country before entering US.

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Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Postby JwalaMukhi » 31 Jan 2011 05:18

Ajatshatru wrote:Or the core/actual issue here being the response of having them tagged even if they are, ....

No one is applauding or justifying the response. All here are disgusted by the sordid events, including you. Could the situation have been avoided by the people who are most affected by this, namely students, is all one is splitting hairs about.
Other than that:
Boss, honestly do not know what is your gripe? Is it that GOI is not doing enough? Or is it most are not shedding tears? Or is it most are not shouting that the response has been third degree?

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Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Postby ramana » 31 Jan 2011 05:28

The issue is the radio collar being enforced as part of the bail. To Indians in India it reeks of the colonial practices. I think that is the outrage in India.

The US concern is the bailees will flee. And hence they imposed the radio tagging devices.


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To me the chaps who ran the Uty were fraudsters and the victims are the students who were duped. That they knew they were duped is irrelevant for the US law does not accept ignorance of the law as an excuse.

Since the students had come on fraudulent visas issued by the fake uty, the ICE should deport these non citizens and not treat them as slaves with radio tag virtual chaining. They can do that to their own citizens.

Whether the students got duped knowingly or not is irrelevant to the treatment of virtual chains. Deport them and be done with it.

Chidanand Rajghatta type of news reports blaming the students is attitude of the crab that got out of the barrel first.

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Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Postby JwalaMukhi » 31 Jan 2011 05:42

Ajatshatru wrote:Boss, I think it is amply clear in my initial reply itself....I am sorry to hear that you are purposely once again pretending you are even having problems trying to figure that out....


^ No please do not feel sorry. No pretense, simply cannot see how the equation would be complete without students being factored in. However, if you feel please focus only on the "response" and what can be done about that. (not be distracted by student factor)
So far, the claim from US has been they can do that because they can? what are we going to do about that?
Same happened with the diplomat incident and many other such situations. Tried to explain the undertone of the society and why it can happen (laws are not designed to protect non-citizens), but you don't even like the answer. So, will let you drive the discussion of how it should proceed (without factoring in students so as to not put onus on students even by accident).

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Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Postby Cosmo_R » 31 Jan 2011 05:50

@Putnanja ^^^

This is a repeat of the Oz 'university' scam. Just fronts for untenable 'student' status to lead to 'permanent status' as 'qualified for immigration'. The Oz ones were for 'beauty management' a such stuff.

Hard to believe anyone among the 'students' were not in the know'. Nandita Ruchandani is right. As to 'collars', well, it is only an an issue if the Indians have been singled out. If the others were similarly treated, then this argument goes away.

BTW, my real question is how on earth did the US Embassy/consular staff not spot this? The DOS has a list of eligible educational institutes

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Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Postby Ambar » 31 Jan 2011 06:12

ramana wrote:The issue is the radio collar being enforced as part of the bail. To Indians in India it reeks of the colonial practices. I think that is the outrage in India.

Since the students had come on fraudulent visas issued by the fake uty, the ICE should deport these non citizens and not treat them as slaves with radio tag virtual chaining. They can do that to their own citizens.

Whether the students got duped knowingly or not is irrelevant to the treatment of virtual chains. Deport them and be done with it.

Chidanand Rajghatta type of news reports blaming the students is attitude of the crab that got out of the barrel first.


Ramanaji, i think the deportation is upto the immigration judge and ICE has no say in that. Like you said, using a tracking collars on those on bail is the norm. And unfortunately they'll have to wear the collar until they go in front of judge, or jump the bail and take the next flight out of the country. Most of them are probably not willing to do it as there is still a chance they might try for a transfer to some other college or file lawsuits against the university that duped them.

Having said the above, in this age of internet law offices, it wouldn't have cost them more than 100$ to get a reply from a immigration attorney if what they were doing was right/wrong. Although this is the first time i have come across a sham college in US ( well, probably not the first time.Remember Babar Awan's 'masters degree' in law from a sham Hawaian college?), such universities are dime a dozen in UKstan that Pakis milk to the max.

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Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Postby Cosmo_R » 31 Jan 2011 06:21

This is not an accredited university.

http://www.trivalleyuniversity.org/

This is a scam out and out. I mean any 'student' worth his/her salt who could not figure this one out has got to be a Paki level brain. The only conclusion one can draw is that the student were not 'duped'. They may have been promised something they knew was too good to be true and decided to go along. But this is not a US problem. The last thing we need is for legitimate Indian students who are the vast majority to be tainted by this stuff.

Again, how did the US embassy/consulate (Chennai) let this happen?

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Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Postby GuruPrabhu » 31 Jan 2011 07:50

Bhai log,

I fail to see why this has become an issue of H&D and "inhumane" treatment etc. It is a simple law and order thing. Did the students not know that they were breaking the law? If so, they are too dumb to be students. I came to US on student visa and the rules were perfectly clear. Were these students actually interested in studies? If so, when did they have the tubelight moment that they were not learning anything in classrooms? If at all they had such a moment? Seems to me they were well entrenched into the scam.

Now this "inhumane" nonsense. The radio-collar is actually the *humane* option. I know cause I have worn one. To cut a long story short, judge gave me 5 days and handed me to the sheriff. Sheriff gave me the collar option (provided I paid for the collar fees). I took it in a jiffy. Jail or collar -- the choice was easy!

When you play with the law, learn to take the punishment with a smile. Whining about it is ridiculous. My 2 paise.

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Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Postby GuruPrabhu » 31 Jan 2011 07:52

Cosmo_R wrote:This is not an accredited university.

http://www.trivalleyuniversity.org/

This is a scam out and out. I mean any 'student' worth his/her salt who could not figure this one out has got to be a Paki level brain. The only conclusion one can draw is that the student were not 'duped'.


sorry boss, I did not make it to the bottom of the page before typing my post. You have made this point very well and I just repeated it.

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Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Postby GuruPrabhu » 31 Jan 2011 07:56

Ajatshatru wrote:Are you trying to hint here that the students brought it upon themselves and thus deserve to be treated in such a humiliating and inhumane manner?

Nothing the students may have done still gives an excuse to tag them as if they are some common criminals....


boss, common or uncommon, they are criminals, unless you want to redefine what a criminal is. breaking a law is a crime, plain and simple.

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Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Postby Abhi_G » 31 Jan 2011 08:46

No need of too much self-flagellation. We have enough of that already.

But how come the US consulates never figured out? Some unkil babus up there must have been in the act. Now that they are caught with pants down, the focus is diverted to the victims through media. Desi media will lap up the chance no?

Bottomline is more commonsense is expected from students, especially after the murderous attacks in Oz. Why take shortcuts?

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Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Postby negi » 31 Jan 2011 09:00

GuruPrabhu, I am afraid you are WRONG, this is like saying anyone who gets ripped by a fraud company or a bank is a criminal (just like the Citi case in Gurgaon) now obviously in this case it might very well be possible that some of the students knew about the fact that Uty in question was a shady institute but can you tell me how does that make everyone a criminal ? Regardless of the motive of the students behind applying to this Uty if they have not falsified any documents or furbished false information while applying to both the Uty and the USCIS for VISA then they are not criminals. Yes US has complete right to close such a Uty and deport the students in question but they cannot be 'legally' labeled as fraudsters/criminals unless otherwise established by checking their VISA applications (If they haven't forged their school/college mark-sheets and other papers then it's the insti that issued the I-20 which is to be blamed).

I think I know the reason for this radio-tag thingy but that can be debated without labeling the students as 'criminals', heck some of them might be completely ignorant of the whole scam.
Last edited by negi on 31 Jan 2011 09:13, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Postby GuruPrabhu » 31 Jan 2011 09:11

negi wrote:GuruPrabhu, I am afraid you are WRONG, this is like saying anyone who gets ripped by a fraud company or a bank is a criminal (just like the Citi case in Gurgaon) now obviously in this case it might very well be possible that some of the students knew about the fact that Uty in question was a shady institute but can you tell me how does that make anyone applying to that institute a 'criminal' ?


Boss, if you are on a student visa and you are not attending classes, you are violating the terms of your visa. Period. If you falsify your address, youa re violating the law, Period.

You may know more about the case than I do, so please indicate whether these allegations are false.

My guess is that they were not duped but were willing accomplices. I may be wrong so please correct me with facts.

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Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Postby Ambar » 31 Jan 2011 09:23

Guru, although 'radio collars' are standard procedure on those on bailing awaiting hearing, don't jump to conclusions and label them as "criminals". The courts around the world including in states make it clear that "they are innocent until proven guilty". Let the hearing begin . Like i said, they are wearing a tracker and awaiting trial for a reason. If they are proved innocent, they can always get a transfer to better colleges or atleast get their fees back.

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Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Postby GuruPrabhu » 31 Jan 2011 09:28

Ambar,

Point taken. They are all very innocent until proven guilty -- but yes, they are on bail. A judge could have set their bail at $50,000 or some such limit. Getting a collar is a bargain.

By the way, look at this schedule of classes for this "university":

http://trivalleyuniversity.org/schedule.htm

A bunch of random courses like "programming with dreamweaver" with a sprinkling of Jesus stuff does not make a university. It barely passes a madarsa curriculum. If some desi students fell for this, I have serious problems with Indian institutions that produced these students.


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