Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): July 07, 2010

All threads that are locked or marked for deletion will be moved to this forum. The topics will be cleared from this archive on the 1st and 16th of each month.
ramana
Forum Moderator
Posts: 53995
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30

Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): July 07, 2

Postby ramana » 22 Jul 2010 21:26

partha, Thanks the report shows why the mullahs spent the later years developing the nexus with the Army. So in the end they had the last laugh.

RamaY
BRF Oldie
Posts: 17249
Joined: 10 Aug 2006 21:11
Location: http://bharata-bhuti.blogspot.com/

Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): July 07, 2

Postby RamaY » 22 Jul 2010 21:33

shiv wrote:India spends about 3% of its GPD on defence and has an army that is equal in size to the Pakistan army (after allowing for about half the Indian army to be reserved for the China border).

Conventional wisdom says that an attacking force needs a 2:1 or 3:1(or better) numerical superiority over a defending force for an outright victory. India DOES NOT have that numerical superiority and cannot be guaranteed victory if we attack Pakistan.


The problem with this data is - India's GDP in 1947 was Rs 213,680 millions where as it is Rs 50,220,000 millions ($1.16Tx45Rs). This is a whopping 235 times increase. India's defense budget too increased accordingly.

But the size of Indian Army did not change much during this period. That means, there is a quantitative limit to military and any additional funds above that "natural" limit will have to qualitative in nature.

That doesn't mean India cannot build a 3 million army if it wanted, and is willing to make the proportional quality sacrifices.

shiv wrote:But in the last 63 years India has spent far more than Pakistan on education and family planning. We are doing much better but we still have a long way to go. India's population in 1947 was about 300 million and about 200 million were poor. In 2010 India has 600 million poor people. Three times more than in 1947. So despite spending the bare minimum on defence and despite spending a lot on development we still have twice as many poor people today than our entire population in 1947. And this is despite spending very little on defence.


When Indian population was 300 million, ~200 million were poor. That is 60+% of the population.

Today India's population is about 1160 million and ~600 million are poor; 51% of the population. In absolute terms (at 60% rate it should be 696 million) India pulled ~100 millions out of poverty since Independence.

What is the reason for this abysmal performance. The proof is in the pudding. Today the BPL is defined by international organizations with US$ as the base currency. But 1USD ~ Rs4 in 1947 where as it is Rs45+ in 2010. This ate ~11 multiples of poverty line.

With all these models and calculations, India cannot solve its poverty issues (which is completely a different topic) even if it were to zero-out military expenditure. Another 3% allocation to poverty alleviation would pull another 100million Indians above BPL in 60 years.

Thus, the exercise of tying military posture with internal economic conditions is not only inaccurate but also useless. We have a proverb in Telugu saying "Bodigunduki, mokaaliki mudipettinattu" (tying one's shaved head to his knee = futile exercise with absolutely no logic).

JMHT.

satyam
BRFite
Posts: 224
Joined: 15 Jun 2010 01:07

Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): July 07, 2

Postby satyam » 22 Jul 2010 21:38

^^^^^

India's gdp is 1.354 trillion $(1 $= Rs 46)

ramana
Forum Moderator
Posts: 53995
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30

Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): July 07, 2

Postby ramana » 22 Jul 2010 21:39

From Nightwatch, 22 July 2010...

India: After his return from talks in Pakistan, External Affairs Minister Krishna lamented and berated the comments by his colleague, the Secy for Home Affairs Pillai about official Pakistani intelligence management of the Mumbai attacks.

Pillai's remarks froze the talks before they began and ensured they would not produce substantive results. Krishna's indulgence in blaming a cabinet colleague is more a matter of domestic Indian politics than foreign policy. Krishna is deflecting blame for the unproductive talks.

Nevertheless, Pillai's comments are closer to the mark. Since 2008, the governments of Prime Minister Singh always have stated that they would not engage in a general dialogue with Pakistan, except on the condition that Pakistanis involved in the Mumbai attacks were first brought to justice.

Pakistan: Prime Minister Gilani said it is important that NATO and Pakistani forces increase cooperation and the sharing of information for the joint monitoring of the Pakistan-Afghanistan border, The Associated Press reported 21 July. Gilani, while talking with NATO Secretary-General Anders Fogh Rasmussen, sought NATO's assistance in improving a road network throughout Pakistan to provide supplies to NATO-led International Security Assistance Force troops and welcomed a proposal for the signing of a framework agreement between Pakistan and NATO.

Comment: The significance of the NATO discussion and US Secretary Clinton's recent visit are that they represent another "tilt" towards Pakistan on security matters for the third time since 1971. In this respect, the Obama administration is following the path of the Nixon administration, although circumstances have changed. Pakistan is receiving US tax dollars as if it were a state of the United States, but the results are pathetic.

There might not be a practical alternative, but prudence commends a clear understanding of how little the US tax dollars have purchased in Pakistan.

The US is doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result. Neither military nor elected Pakistani governments have delivered bin Laden, Zawahiri or Mullah Omar. Quite the contrary. Coincident with increased US engagement, Pakistan has become less stable, manifest in the formation of the Pakistani Taliban, in addition to the failure to kill or capture the al Qaida leaders or the Afghan Taliban leaders. All the drone killings of lesser luminaries do not signify, by comparison.

President Zardari and Prime Minister Gilani repeat the same refrains that Musharraf uttered when he held both of their jobs: "there is no proof"; "share your proof"; "the men are not in Pakistan."

Pakistanis have been repeating these refrains for nearly ten years, regardless of a severe deterioration in Pakistan's internal security and a worsening of the Allied position in Afghanistan. Still, the repetition has produced a steady increase in US assistance to Pakistan, indicating the tactic works for Pakistan, not for the US, NATO or Afghanistan.

Since the rise of the Taliban in the mid-1990's, with Pakistani intelligence assistance, it has been clear that Pakistani interests in Afghanistan and South Asia are not congruent with American interests. This ought to be obvious after the past ten years. That is the only explanation, for example, for Mullah Omar's ability to operate with impunity from Quetta or Karachi, as he sees fit, against US forces in Afghanistan.

Pakistan has become an agent of instability and proliferation and a state sponsor of terror since about the mid-1990s. The US continues to reward bad, if not incompetent, Pakistani behavior. There might be no practical alternatives, but any notion that this policy is working by any measure of merit - such as improving security conditions in Afghanistan -- needs to be dispelled. This is a study in democracy.

Question for feedback: Does the US aid package exceed Pakistan's income tax receipts?



If one takes out the TSP military largesse yes. The US aid package is a significant component of TSP's budget.

archan
Forum Moderator
Posts: 6821
Joined: 03 Aug 2007 21:30
Contact:

Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): July 07, 2

Postby archan » 22 Jul 2010 21:40

Rudradev wrote:I was just pointing out that, if speculation about the GOI being very systematic and coordinated in its policies is "on topic" for this thread, then posting rebuttals of this viewpoint with evidence to the contrary should certainly be considered "on topic" as well.

It is. And there have been rebuttals (e.g. by negi, Dilbu), you are not the only one carrying that torch on BRF. Name calling or assigning motives to other users isn't, which is something you unfortunately decided to do. They followed the basic rule so no one had a problem with their posts.

Pratyush
BRF Oldie
Posts: 8151
Joined: 05 Mar 2010 15:13

Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): July 07, 2

Postby Pratyush » 22 Jul 2010 21:41

man this thread moves

archan
Forum Moderator
Posts: 6821
Joined: 03 Aug 2007 21:30
Contact:

Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): July 07, 2

Postby archan » 22 Jul 2010 21:42

Pratyush wrote:man this thread moves

'coz poaquistan rocks!!

Pratyush
BRF Oldie
Posts: 8151
Joined: 05 Mar 2010 15:13

Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): July 07, 2

Postby Pratyush » 22 Jul 2010 21:43

that was fast :D

last post on this topic

shiv
BRF Oldie
Posts: 34982
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: Pindliyon ka Gooda

Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): July 07, 2

Postby shiv » 22 Jul 2010 22:32

negi wrote:
shiv wrote:Going abroad removes this Indic trash. After that we don't need to say "Sir" or "ji" any more.
I don't know what has going abroad got to do with this, and btw fwiw the point about 70+ people being not fit for politics and to run our country was voiced by my mother .



Believe me going abroad - especially to the west removes any doubts that elders need respect and need to be obeyed. You address everyone by first name. Classless. caste less.You don't call your boss "Sir" You call him Stan or Graham or whatever.

If you let India grow in you - calling someone "sir" or "ji" is natural. Different society. Different system. Sorry OT.

ramana
Forum Moderator
Posts: 53995
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30

Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): July 07, 2

Postby ramana » 22 Jul 2010 22:38

The drivel that US emissaries put out in their contradiction of protecting the Paki hounds and run with the Indian hares!

'LeT wants to create problems between India and Pak'

Poor guy! No wonder he is shuttling back and forth everywhere. With such wisdom where will he be welcome except in Dilli Billi corridors.

added later...

"LeT a threat to humanity" US Army Chief

Shouldn't they be uttering these platitiudes/home truths in Islamabad and not in Delhi or is it for Delhi audience?

shiv
BRF Oldie
Posts: 34982
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: Pindliyon ka Gooda

Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): July 07, 2

Postby shiv » 22 Jul 2010 22:41

RamaY wrote:
With all these models and calculations, India cannot solve its poverty issues (which is completely a different topic) even if it were to zero-out military expenditure. Another 3% allocation to poverty alleviation would pull another 100million Indians above BPL in 60 years.


Saar it is easy to say that difference between zero and 3 is small. But difference between 3 and 6% is even less significant. 3% extra would not have been enough either. It only suits your argument. It would only have been a marginal improvement since most expenditure is on salaries and pensions. If you say 20% extra then you are beginning to say something workable. Why not 20% extra? That is what Pakistan did for defence rather than family planning and education and Pakistan is doing quite well now. No?
Last edited by shiv on 22 Jul 2010 22:54, edited 1 time in total.

Brad Goodman
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2368
Joined: 01 Apr 2010 17:00

Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): July 07, 2

Postby Brad Goodman » 22 Jul 2010 22:50

ramana wrote:I have tried many models of Paki Establishement behavior. The one that fits, to me atleast, is the concept of kabila: a migrant armed camp pitched in a terrority without any roots in it. And the kabila is run by the guards whole contorl all aspects of life inside the kabila.

At Independence modern India threw out this kabila which has currently pitched its camp on the western borders of India. The East Pakistan broke away and is on its way to put in roots and transform the kabila to a mulk.

My contention is its the TSPA which is the kabila guards that wont allow the kabila to become a mulk. The only way as of now is for more Islamist (Wahabandis) folks to overthow them for they won't see the light. They have inertia of the insitituion(armed forces), the hubris of their clique (Pakjabi) and the hamartia (fatal flaw) of the national foundation.



I agree with you. I think the british cultivated this culture in armed forces where the classification between armed forces and civilians was instilled into these folks. So everytime you hear army walla talk they will be like you civilians (old days there used to be an adjective blo**y prefixed before civilians) Now there was also a sense of superiority that came along with uniforms this was because you were provided a house (buglow) servants, car driver and host of other benefits including a fauji dabba in railway. Pakis since independence not just maintained exisitng perks but kept adding to them like jobs in PSU , Land gifts, Fauji corporation, DHA etc etc after retirement. This kind of perks are un heard of in any other country. Most Indian soilders that retire end up becoming security guards. Also in India along with civilian control of army the contempt for civilians vanished because civilians were not poor uneducated bunch like in old days they were driving more flashy skoda and mercedes compared to sarkari ambassador. So for pakis once they clear SSB and enter cantonment they enter this cacoon where they are shielded from reality. Their orderly brings provision and cleans up house and they have minimal contact with mango abdul's so once you are shielded from reality you kind of become spoilt and want to make sure you can hang on to these privledges for life so you indulge in corruption or misuse of power to further your grip on these perks.
Last edited by Brad Goodman on 22 Jul 2010 23:04, edited 1 time in total.

Brad Goodman
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2368
Joined: 01 Apr 2010 17:00

Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): July 07, 2

Postby Brad Goodman » 22 Jul 2010 22:57

negi wrote:Shiv ji I am gonna be in that position someday so there is no question of contempt involved here I am merely expressing my opinion as to how can one make sound decision when one is already long past his/her prime physically and mentally ?



Agree sarkar itself retires her employees once they cross 60 years of age. The reason for this is that they feel after that age you cannot discharge your duties to the best of your abilities. So the same logic should also be applied to sarkar itself. Else just make it level playing field for all of us.

vic
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2412
Joined: 19 May 2010 10:00

Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): July 07, 2

Postby vic » 22 Jul 2010 23:25

Is there actual dispute between HM or FM or we are learning fun & games from Uncle Sam?

Chandragupta
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3469
Joined: 07 Dec 2008 15:26
Location: Kingdom of My Fair Lady

Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): July 07, 2

Postby Chandragupta » 22 Jul 2010 23:30

I understand that some kind of mass paranoia engulfs BRF whenever Indo-Pig talks happen. This paranoia of Kashmir being surrendered & Pigs winning is amusing. In the past, I would gladly have taken part in all this celebration of Hindu cowardliness & the victory of martial mohammedans to the west but I am not convinced this is the case.

The approach GoI & MMS are taking, of unhindered economic growth while letting Pigs spit on our faces is downright pathetic but realistic. I doubt BJP would be able to do it in any different way. Of all the issues I have with with GoI & Congress in general, including their anti-Hindu, pseudo secular vote bank politics & general misrule for decades, their current Pakistan policy is not one of them, currently that is (subject to change whenever they do a new SeS). It is a totally legitimate line of thought that India needs a decade of uninterrupted & accelerated economic growth to become a nominal $4-5 T economy & pull all those hundreds of millions of people above poverty line. This is a bigger challenge than preventing Paki terror attacks, I agree. But I would like to know what the gurus think about India's Pakistan policy once that happens. In 15 years, say India becomes a $5T economy, third largest in the world after China & US. In the same period, Pakistan becomes a degenerating cesspool of 250 million illiterate, brainwashed, madrassa educated jihadis with no food, no jobs & no future, but with an army that has nuclear weapons.

Now, for 15 years, we can try to buy time by talking, talking, appeasing & begging, but what are we buying time for? Hoping that in 15 years, these unwashed jehadis will kill each other & turn to 'big brother' India for help & then we, being a $5T economy, can keep throwing crumbs at them with a wicked smile on our faces? Sorry, that sounds like something that my grand father used to tell me about Islamic invasions of India, that when Islamic invaders attacked & destroyed temples, local Hindus would stand by the side, looking up in the sky for Lord Hanuman or Shri Ram to descend & slay the invaders. True or not, a fairly fitting analogy it is. It would be a waste if, 15 years later, we end up with much, much more to lose than Pakis with absolutely nothing to lose but with more teeth & a level of hatred growing exponentially for 15 years.

shravan
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2201
Joined: 03 Apr 2009 00:08

Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): July 07, 2

Postby shravan » 22 Jul 2010 23:40

Govt announces extension of Gen Kayani's tenure

ISLAMABAD: In an address to the nation on late Thursday night, the Prime Minister Yousuf Raza Gilani has announced the decision to extend the tenure of the Chief of Army Staff General Ashfaq Pervez Kayani by another three years.

partha
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4001
Joined: 02 Jul 2010 15:25

Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): July 07, 2

Postby partha » 22 Jul 2010 23:43

hmm..so Kayani gave himself an extension. see he is not kiya-nahi :)

surinder
BRFite
Posts: 1421
Joined: 08 Apr 2005 06:57
Location: Badal Ki Chaaon Mein

Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): July 07, 2

Postby surinder » 22 Jul 2010 23:43

I was listenting to NPR today (Dianne Rheem Show). She had guests who were talking about N. Koria. Issues discussed were conditions of NOKO, the sinking of that ship etc. One guest articulated something that would hardly be quoatable or would strike any American as odd or or in any way hard line. She said that "We will not negotiate with N. Korea. We will not engage with it. N. Korea must understand that there are consequences and must face them." Hardly a noteworthy statement, very mundane. But the thing that struck with me such a statement by India would be considered already very strong. It would be taken as a hard-line stance. To be fair, India does say that "we will not talk" and then after 15 milli seconds, goes aheads and talks to TSP. There is this absence of taking a stance regarding talks.

It is not merely a question of whether J&K will be surrendered. BRF is fond of saying "but we did not yield anything of substance" in talks. But that merely highlights how much we have descended in terms of our strength and its perception. We are just content that land was not surrendered, we are not even looking to our govt and bearacracy and press to get a victory. All we are merely happy is that we did not loose Kashmir in the coming talks. We fail to see that while land is not lost (yet), substantial loss happens in terms of our own resolve and we confer legitimacy to both TSP and Khan when we stoop low to talk. We loose our own internal nationalists who are thrown by the way side. It sends very confusing and frankly very weak messages. Ultimately war happens when we percieve strengths and resolves of the enemy, not by the mere existence of certain statistics. These perceptions of strength and resolve lead to more atankvaad or open full-scale fight also. These messages that get sent diminish us as a nation and also demoralize India internally, often sending a poor message to our own centrifugal forces.

These talks are, quite frankly, toxic and an utter erosion of our nationhood. They have yielded nothing, absolutely nothing. They address none of our concerns (transit rights to A'stan, or borde fencing, pilgrimages), but highlight only TSP's concerns. The record of these talks is that of utter failure. For India to continue with them despite their complete failure is clear evidence of utter lack of courage and pluck.

ramana
Forum Moderator
Posts: 53995
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30

Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): July 07, 2

Postby ramana » 22 Jul 2010 23:48

Surinder, Because right now not giving up is the fight.

A_Gupta
BRF Oldie
Posts: 11637
Joined: 23 Oct 2001 11:31
Contact:

Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): July 07, 2

Postby A_Gupta » 23 Jul 2010 00:05

Chandragupta wrote:.... I agree. But I would like to know what the gurus think about India's Pakistan policy once that happens. In 15 years, say India becomes a $5T economy, third largest in the world after China & US. In the same period, Pakistan becomes a degenerating cesspool of 250 million illiterate, brainwashed, madrassa educated jihadis with no food, no jobs & no future, but with an army that has nuclear weapons.


That is the "Managing Pakistan's Failure" thread.

To those asking about statistics (not Chandragupta)

My purpose of gathering statistics is to get a better grasp on Pakistan's failure. E.g., where did that "250 million illiterate madrassa educated" come from in the quote above?

That Pakistan's population will be 250 million or whatever in 15 years,
that the majority will be illiterate, and that from the literate,
the majority will have learned in a madrassa:
these are all statistics. Likewise the $5T economy for India comes from looking at statistics.

-Arun

PS: And the unfortunate fact is when one looks at statistics, one finds that India is still not majorly ahead of Pakistan. All we can say is that the trends are encouraging (with the standard disclaimer that "past performance is no guarantee of future returns"). If the fact that India cannot afford to be complacent in the least causes khujlee here, well, that's just too bad.

A_Gupta
BRF Oldie
Posts: 11637
Joined: 23 Oct 2001 11:31
Contact:

Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): July 07, 2

Postby A_Gupta » 23 Jul 2010 00:13

Peasants protest. This, IMO is significant, though we need a lot more of this in Pakistan.
http://pakteahouse.wordpress.com/2010/0 ... ip-rights/

ramana
Forum Moderator
Posts: 53995
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30

Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): July 07, 2

Postby ramana » 23 Jul 2010 00:26

A-Gupta, I have no problem with gathering TSP stats. For without data its all conjecture.
Its the comparison with India that is not needed here. There are other threads in the other forums: Indian Economy, Know your India, Nation on the March for starters.

RamaY
BRF Oldie
Posts: 17249
Joined: 10 Aug 2006 21:11
Location: http://bharata-bhuti.blogspot.com/

Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): July 07, 2

Postby RamaY » 23 Jul 2010 00:38

Thank you Ramanaji. You took words from my mouth. There is absolutely no need to "compare" Indian toilet statistics with Pakistan economics.

krish.pf
BRFite
Posts: 132
Joined: 20 Aug 2008 20:30

Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): July 07, 2

Postby krish.pf » 23 Jul 2010 00:44

There is no long term thought or chanakyanism going on IMO. No one could have predicted Pakis would take that issue that seriously and spewed venom to that degree to the point of derailing the talks in such a dramatic fashion. The only explanation I can think of is, some people in the HM are sick and tired of the lying Pakisatan. I guess exchanging multiple dossiers with no action on the other side tends to do that. While others in the MEA are just upset the work they put in to bringing more trust between the 2 countries by bending backwards are in shambles, and are frustrated with the guy who pakis accuse of derailing the talks. Perhaps HM knew the MEA under Krishna is going to bend backwards and let out the statement to make sure the revalations are discussed with more importance than other matters. Maybe MEA didn't do its homework in detail with the HM before departing. In any case, I doubt our leaders could have predicted Pakistan would act like this, to make this theory of thinking 4 steps ahead valid.

It is clear the HM wants to have the culprits or atleast see them in prison. While MEA and maybe our dear leader are thinking in terms of avoiding confrontation with the pig and getting all dirty. And the best way to do that is to keep talking, as they believe, regardless of whether the pig-lets are arrested or not.

I wonder how much time MMS is allocating to discuss pak with his different ministries when compared to other issues. When compared most probably it will be very very less.
Last edited by krish.pf on 23 Jul 2010 01:06, edited 1 time in total.

A_Gupta
BRF Oldie
Posts: 11637
Joined: 23 Oct 2001 11:31
Contact:

Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): July 07, 2

Postby A_Gupta » 23 Jul 2010 00:50

ramana wrote:A-Gupta, I have no problem with gathering TSP stats. For without data its all conjecture.
Its the comparison with India that is not needed here. There are other threads in the other forums: Indian Economy, Know your India, Nation on the March for starters.


1. Comparison [with something] is implicitly there when you want to take a statistic as an indication of failure.

2. In any case, need to remain grounded in reality, otherwise one makes the same mistake that RAPE, Pakistani army are making.

Of course, will not burden this thread with comparisons unless absolutely necessary.

-Arun

RajeshA
BRF Oldie
Posts: 15995
Joined: 28 Dec 2007 19:30

Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): July 07, 2

Postby RajeshA » 23 Jul 2010 00:54

ramana wrote:A-Gupta, I have no problem with gathering TSP stats. For without data its all conjecture.
Its the comparison with India that is not needed here. There are other threads in the other forums: Indian Economy, Know your India, Nation on the March for starters.


There are different ways one could use the statistics.
  • 1) Either to compare to other countries.
  • 2) Or to compare to other time frames.

The purpose of gathering statistics for Pakistan should definitely be 2). We want to measure the progress of decay of Pakistan.

ramana
Forum Moderator
Posts: 53995
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30

Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): July 07, 2

Postby ramana » 23 Jul 2010 01:05

Absolutely agree with the premise.

Prem
BRF Oldie
Posts: 21111
Joined: 01 Jul 1999 11:31
Location: Weighing and Waiting 8T Yconomy

Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): July 07, 2

Postby Prem » 23 Jul 2010 01:09

Chandragupta wrote:
.... I agree. But I would like to know what the gurus think about India's Pakistan policy once that happens. In 15 years, say India becomes a $5T economy, third largest in the world after China & US. In the same period, Pakistan becomes a degenerating cesspool of 250 million illiterate, brainwashed, madrassa educated jihadis with no food, no jobs & no future, but with an army that has nuclear weapons.

There is an old Indian story. A Poak and his Bachra was looking toward India across Wagha . The Indian side was glittering with lights and people well dressed and well fed having party . Poak proudly told his Puttar that Poakroach like him and his foreigner TFTA ancestors looted this kuffar land many times and did all sort of Paki things . The Baccha was puzzled and asked Old Poak , "Abbu , then how come they are still prosperous, lighted all over , dressed up, having party while we who looted them are still without light in the house and not enough food to eat or clothes to wear and take out Lota fro zakat on every occasion ?"
Poak was quiet for while and then sheepingly told young Poak but yea we have Pak-islam and they dont and one day in future we might have Kashmir too.

A_Gupta
BRF Oldie
Posts: 11637
Joined: 23 Oct 2001 11:31
Contact:

Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): July 07, 2

Postby A_Gupta » 23 Jul 2010 01:22

^^^^
:)

Muppalla
BRF Oldie
Posts: 7084
Joined: 12 Jun 1999 11:31

Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): July 07, 2

Postby Muppalla » 23 Jul 2010 01:34

More details on Chanikyan istlye coordination

Home Min strikes back at MEA

PNS | New Delhi

Civil war in Govt over security issues

External Affairs Minister SM Krishna may be holding Home Secretary GK Pillai responsible for the failure of Foreign Minister-level talks with Pakistan, but the fact remains that the dialogue collapsed due to Pakistan’s insistence on broad basing the agenda of engagement, removing the focus away from the key issue of terror, and arm-twisting India to agree to resume the stalled composite dialogue process.

The revelations made by a senior Government official on Thursday clearly highlight the sharp differences between the Home Ministry and External Affairs Ministry on sensitive issues concerning national security. In fact, the UPA Government seemed to be badly divided on handling of both the internal security (Maoist problem) and external threat from Pakistan-based terror groups.

The Home Ministry’s tough posturing on refusal of Pakistan to act against Mumbai terror attack mastermind Hafiz Saeed has clearly not gone down well with the higher-ups in the Government and MEA, who want to somehow resume the dialogue process with Pakistan at any cost.

The Home Ministry and the Union Government, or at least an influential section of it, are also at loggerheads over the course of action needed to deal with Maoists. Exasperated over criticism by his partymen, especially frontal attack by Congress general secretary Digvijay Singh, on the handling of the Maoist problem, Home Minister Chidambaram on Thursday went to the extent of virtually offering to step down.

“He (Singh) is the general secretary of our party. I have a job to do and I am doing my job to the best of my ability. If someone can do the job better, I would be the happiest person,” he told a business newspaper.


Singh, who last week justified what he had written about Chidambaram’s handling of the Maoist problem and claimed that it reflected the party policy, remained defiant and said on Thursday that he had not overstepped the line in sticking to his stance on anti-Naxal policy.

Meanwhile, the blame game between the Ministries of External Affairs and Home regarding the failed talks with Pakistan took a new turn with new revelation that Krishna was briefed about David Headley’s revelations on the ISI role in 26/11 attacks in the Cabinet Committee on Security before he left for Islamabad for talks.

Krishna on Wednesday said his Ministry was not informed about the details of Headley’s revelations on the ISI role.
He also criticised Home Secretary GK Pillai for speaking out of turn about the ISI on the eve of the talks thereby shifting the focus from parleys to Pillai’s statement.

Denying Krishna’s assertions, sources said here on Thursday that the Minister was apprised about the facts on the ISI by Chidambaram in the CCS a day before he left for Islamabad. Sources also pointed out that the LeT operator was interrogated in Chicago in presence of Indian Mission officials there. The NIA investigators also informed the US Ambassador about the details of the interrogation.

“Moreover, the Indian High Commissioner in Pakistan was aware of Headley revelations during the talks between Chidambaram and Interior Minister of Pakistan in June. The copy of all the dossiers the Home Minister handed over to Pakistan is with the India’s High Commissioner in Pakistan,” said sources.

“The Home Minister also apprised the Prime Minister and NSA about the details of the ISI role, revealed by Headley,” said sources.

Incidentally, as soon as Krishna landed in Islamabad on July 14 for talks with his Pakistani counterpart Shah Mahmood Qureshi, he said he expected to discuss core concern of terrorism in the context of Headley’s interrogation in connection with Mumbai terror attacks.

As per the information sourced, Indo-Pak talks collapsed on June 15 afternoon, after the Pakistan Army wanted to shift the focus away from terror to Kashmir, Siachen and Sir Creek issues. The observers feel that the tone of the Indo-Pak talks changed after Pakistan Army chief Asfaq Parvez Kayani’s meeting with Prime Minister Yusaf Raza Geelani and President Asif Ali Zardari.

“From afternoon of July 15 onwards everything changed. Pakistan pressed for resumption of composite dialogue and demanded time limits for settling contentious issues. Fixed plans on signing MoUs and creation of Joint Working Groups on LoC trades and water disputes collapsed after the Pakistan Army put pressure on their officials,” said sources.

Karan M
Forum Moderator
Posts: 18863
Joined: 19 Mar 2010 00:58

Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): July 07, 2

Postby Karan M » 23 Jul 2010 01:46

Rgearding the great Chankian GOI led by MMS

I dont know what further evidence is required to state that MMS is an absolute disaster for India and needs to be sent out ASAP and new admin brought in, heck, Rahul Gandhi is preferable to this arrogant, insufferable peacenik who routinely trades Indian lives for his deluded belief in making nice with Pakistan.

This is the same guy, who after the 26/11 attacks on a hapless Indian public, sent a dove embossed peace card to Zardari, the same man who made a shameful political claim that he "couldnt sleep all night" when an Indian citizen of a certain faith was caught on suspicion of terrorist activities.

The same man who fiddled while India suffered terrorist attack after terrorist attack, and did not even attempt to set things right. The same man who bargained away India's long held negotiating positions at Sharm e Shaik (what an apt name) and led to a new low in GOI-administrative official relations, where all sorts of GOI faithfuls crawled out of the woodwork and openly lambasted the Govt. What was the result? Did this worthy apologize, admit the error of his ways? No, the NSA was put out to turf for doing his job and another gent, who carried the ridiculous charade at SeS through was made the new pointsman.

Countless reports have identified these character flaws in this ridiculous excuse for a PM, yet we have long posts debating the GOI's "chankianness". So chankian that a nuisance has now become a full blow insurrection in the hinterland and the prime terror sponsor against the Indian state, dictates terms to Indian diplomats abroad, while India's own officials are censured for speaking the truth. Early on itself, there were reports of how the worthy wanted open borders in Kashmir and demilitarize Siachen. A shocked Army, frustrated with the amount it has spent in blood to keep the borders secure and well aware of what Siachen meant, had to resort to media leaks to keep this man's antics at bay.

What a thorough shame.

Nor are his credentials as an administrator any better. The UPA Govt saw yet another new low, of war veterans sending missives written in blood and attempting to return their medals, the sole paltry recognition they had of their efforts. Was that widely covered in the media? Oh no - nothing to rock the boat. And folks wonder why the opposition is ineffectual. The man has no credibility or power to even affect any sort of national policy, with the HM who is leading a campaign against a powerful threat, being dogged by his own party's sycophants and apparatchiks, worried about losing yet another votebank amongst the liberal left.

Frankly put, some folks are still in denial and acting petulant, without realizing their hero has feet of clay. This man is NOT an Indira Gandhi or some savant out for India's economic salvation.

He is a man who has put his ethnicity and desire for personal glory (a legacy) over and above India's national interest, countless times.

Some folks may not wish to admit this, but denial apart, the reality is apparent. It was one thing to be foolish and believe oneself to be a modern day Nehru as was evident early on in his tenure but this was an idiosyncrasy which could have been forgiven, but the total lack of any introspection that dogs MMS vis a vis Pakistan, makes him a utter disaster as a PM. That he has full security and traipses around with nary a care to his body and soul, while those he is supposed to protect get slaughtered with shameful regularity, civil and military, bothers him not a whit.

One wishes that his tenure ends, the sooner the better, and he is left alone to his antics and attending seminars and giving long speeches, without having the country suffer for them
Last edited by archan on 23 Jul 2010 14:44, edited 2 times in total.
Reason: user warned. Thanks for your insightful comment. Comments on race, ethnicity are in poor taste.

surinder
BRFite
Posts: 1421
Joined: 08 Apr 2005 06:57
Location: Badal Ki Chaaon Mein

Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): July 07, 2

Postby surinder » 23 Jul 2010 02:14

Many people have criticized MMS, but this particular is the first one I am hearing: ".... He is a man who has put his ethnicity ... over and above India's national interest, countless times."

What is his ethnicity? Can you please cite a few examples of him putting his ethnicity-based decision?

Nihat
BRFite
Posts: 1195
Joined: 10 Dec 2008 13:35

Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): July 07, 2

Postby Nihat » 23 Jul 2010 02:21

Karan M wrote:Rgearding the great Chankian GOI led by MMS

I dont know what further evidence is required to state that MMS is an absolute disaster for India and needs to be sent out ASAP and new admin brought in, heck, Rahul Gandhi is preferable to this arrogant, insufferable peacenik who routinely trades Indian lives for his deluded belief in making nice with Pakistan.

This is the same guy, who after the 26/11 attacks on a hapless Indian public, sent a dove embossed peace card to Zardari, the same man who made a shameful political claim that he "couldnt sleep all night" when an Indian citizen of a certain faith was caught on suspicion of terrorist activities.

The same man who fiddled while India suffered terrorist attack after terrorist attack, and did not even attempt to set things right. The same man who bargained away India's long held negotiating positions at Sharm e Shaik (what an apt name) and led to a new low in GOI-administrative official relations, where all sorts of GOI faithfuls crawled out of the woodwork and openly lambasted the Govt. What was the result? Did this worthy apologize, admit the error of his ways? No, the NSA was put out to turf for doing his job and another gent, who carried the ridiculous charade at SeS through was made the new pointsman.

Countless reports have identified these character flaws in this ridiculous excuse for a PM, yet we have long posts debating the GOI's "chankianness". So chankian that a nuisance has now become a full blow insurrection in the hinterland and the prime terror sponsor against the Indian state, dictates terms to Indian diplomats abroad, while India's own officials are censured for speaking the truth. Early on itself, there were reports of how the worthy wanted open borders in Kashmir and demilitarize Siachen. A shocked Army, frustrated with the amount it has spent in blood to keep the borders secure and well aware of what Siachen meant, had to resort to media leaks to keep this man's antics at bay.

What a thorough shame.

Nor are his credentials as an administrator any better. The UPA Govt saw yet another new low, of war veterans sending missives written in blood and attempting to return their medals, the sole paltry recognition they had of their efforts. Was that widely covered in the media? Oh no - nothing to rock the boat. And folks wonder why the opposition is ineffectual. The man has no credibility or power to even affect any sort of national policy, with the HM who is leading a campaign against a powerful threat, being dogged by his own party's sycophants and apparatchiks, worried about losing yet another votebank amongst the liberal left.

Frankly put, some folks are still in denial and acting petulant, without realizing their hero has feet of clay. This man is NOT an Indira Gandhi or some savant out for India's economic salvation.

He is a man who has put his ethnicity and desire for personal glory (a legacy) over and above India's national interest, countless times.

Some folks may not wish to admit this, but denial apart, the reality is apparent. It was one thing to be foolish and believe oneself to be a modern day Nehru as was evident early on in his tenure but this was an idiosyncrasy which could have been forgiven, but the total lack of any introspection that dogs MMS vis a vis Pakistan, makes him a utter disaster as a PM. That he has full security and traipses around with nary a care to his body and soul, while those he is supposed to protect get slaughtered with shameful regularity, civil and military, bothers him not a whit.

One wishes that his tenure ends, the sooner the better, and he is left alone to his antics and attending seminars and giving long speeches, without having the country suffer for them


the Prime Minister of India does much more than just preside over "Pakistan Policy"

shravan
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2201
Joined: 03 Apr 2009 00:08

Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): July 07, 2

Postby shravan » 23 Jul 2010 02:35

Taliban Chief Fazlullah still alive

PESHAWAR: The banned outfit Tehreek-e Taliban Swat’s Chief Maulana Fazlullah is alive, SAMAA reported Thursday night.

Fazlullah is known as 'Mullah FM' for fiery sermons broadcast on an illegal radio station. The Afghan border forces claimed that he was killed during the clash in May.

In the recent video footage Maulana Fazlullah is addressing above a dozen terrorists at an unknown place. SAMAA

Karan M
Forum Moderator
Posts: 18863
Joined: 19 Mar 2010 00:58

Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): July 07, 2

Postby Karan M » 23 Jul 2010 03:03

Surinder,

It has been said before many a time. This man, like IKG is too prone to pappi-jhappi stuff and mistakenly thinks he is right to do so. IKG too went overboard in falling for the Pakjabi antics as well, and ended up causing severe damage. In my opinion, these antics do a grave disservice to all those from the state/ethnicity who have laid their lives on the line, time and again, holding back the same terrorists whose sponsors these guys end up pandering to, and who far outnumber these individuals. However, it is to our discomfiture that these select WKKs get into positions of power which outweigh the impact of other folk

Nihat

the Prime Minister of India does much more than just preside over "Pakistan Policy"

Wow - I'd sure like to see what all this worthy has done apart from presiding over this disastrous policy. If he was an effective administrator, able to handle the Maoists, tackle rampant corruption, develop the economy without burdening it under vote bribe aka massive social sops/ programs, cut through the logjam that affects armed forces modernisation, make a united front with the opposition on key national issues..perhaps one would be able to give him leeway on the shameful behaviour vis a vis Pak
Unfortunately, he has been an utter failure on all these counts as well.

He is neither an effective administrator, nor a humane leader who values his peoples lives enough to protect them effectively. Sorry, but as far as PM's go, it will take some doing to find a worse one.

Vivek K
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2199
Joined: 15 Mar 2002 12:31

Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): July 07, 2

Postby Vivek K » 23 Jul 2010 03:04

Karan M - Your post is a total waste of bandwidth. Please read your post once more! I can understand that you do not agree with the view point of the PM, however, I cannot agree to your ramblings over his ethnicity! Please answer Surinder's question once you re-read your post. I encourage you to consider deleting your post entirely and put some coherent stuff up.

Do give us an example of where MMS has put his "ethnicity" above national interests. I am reporting to the admins about your post and I will request them to consider banning you.

You accuse him of seeking personal glory - yet he has not prepared a successor from his family or clan to lead the Cong after him like every other Indian leader - Jawaharlal Nehru, Indira Gandhi, Sonia Gandhi, Maneka Gandhi, ..... Not many Indian PMs have put their jobs on the line for their principles. Everyone makes mistakes and so has Dr. Manmohan Singh. But he has been the architect of India's economic revival and of its ability to seek a great power status. He has dared to look west and east instead of running into Russia's lap for every foreign policy.

Vivek K
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2199
Joined: 15 Mar 2002 12:31

Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): July 07, 2

Postby Vivek K » 23 Jul 2010 03:14

Karan M wrote:...He is neither an effective administrator, nor a humane leader who values his peoples lives enough to protect them effectively. Sorry, but as far as PM's go, it will take some doing to find a worse one.

Again, that is your opinion and you are entitled to it. Some of us are quite proud of him and his administration. Hey he did not roar about "Aar paar ki ladai" and then back down with a whimper like some others. Care to talk about that? No one has accused the PM of being "asleep at the wheel" too.

Or perhaps you don't like the economic progress that India continues to make even in these times.

The best thing is - if you don't like Dr. MMS, vote for someone else in the next election. I will gladly vote for him again.

Karan M
Forum Moderator
Posts: 18863
Joined: 19 Mar 2010 00:58

Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): July 07, 2

Postby Karan M » 23 Jul 2010 03:26

Vivek K wrote:Karan M - Your post is a total waste of bandwidth. Please read your post once more! I can understand that you do not agree with the view point of the PM, however, I cannot agree to your ramblings over his ethnicity! Please answer Surinder's question once you re-read your post. I encourage you to consider deleting your post entirely and put some coherent stuff up.


Compared to your post, I find my post to be far more coherent and focused in its criticism. It clearly mentions where MMS failed the nation, repeatedly.

Do give us an example of where MMS has put his "ethnicity" above national interests. I am reporting to the admins about your post and I will request them to consider banning you.


His pappi jhappi nonsense is enough to note that he panders to the worst antics of the Pakjabis and has put his personal predilections above national interests.

As far as your threats go, they are typical and to expected, of those unprepared to admit that their hero has feet of clay, the norm, in that you deliberately seized upon that one bit in order to deviate the issue and run to the admins! Typical!

The fact remains that MMS and IKG before him, brought hook, line and sinker into the Pakjabi belief of a shared culture, and "one people" and ended up making expensive compromises.

I'd rather take a KPS Gill, anyday over MMS. So much for your misreading of what I noted.

You accuse him of seeking personal glory - yet he has not prepared a successor from his family or clan to lead the Cong after him like every other Indian leader - Jawaharlal Nehru, Indira Gandhi, Sonia Gandhi, Maneka Gandhi, ..... Not many Indian PMs have put their jobs on the line for their principles. Everyone makes mistakes and so has Dr. Manmohan Singh. But he has been the architect of India's economic revival and of its ability to seek a great power status. He has dared to look west and east instead of running into Russia's lap for every foreign policy.


Oh please give me a break. As if he will be allowed to find a family member to continue after him, given that he has next to no political power as a grassroots leader. Where the redoubtable Shri Kesri failed in even holding onto power, seasoned grassroots leaders faltered, it is now expected that MMS will succeed in finding and pushing forth a successor? Hardly

His desire for a legacy flows entirely from the fact that he does not have this power to do so, and hence is pursuing rash "big ticket" programs like the Pak deal, in order to create a legacy that lives after him, and which he is associated with.

This desire for personal glory, when attack after attack has been attempted on India is shameful.

If one thing his current stewardship has proven, it is that his claim to be an efficient economic administrator was also ludicrous. To even go on this line would be amusing, and a tangent.

Third, this business of looking "west" is hilarious. India has been looking west (and east) since Rajiv Gandhis time. Successive GOI's have balanced this, without running helter skelter into any one country's lap as Shri MMS has done.

Even that would have been forgiveable, but for the hash he has made of everything else.

Again, that is your opinion and you are entitled to it.


Really, it does seem to put a rather large bone in your craw though, given your violent reaction. If you were indeed all for free speech, then you'd attempt to understand what a pathetic disappointment he has been, and how dangerous his misguided quest is for Indians, irrespective of their faith, culture, or state of origin

Some of us are quite proud of him and his administration.


Yes, indeed, the hero worship as mentioned before, which leads even the most rational of folk to get emotional and react as you have done, with threats of bans and so forth!

Hey he did not roar about "Aar paar ki ladai" and then back down with a whimper like some others. Care to talk about that?

Look beyond political partisanship. The current admin is more relevant than whats gone because its policies impact us today!

What does it matter that one PM goofed up and made claims of "Aar paar ki ladai" or not! As if that man's failure on one count excuses how pathetic the current one is on several! Vajpayee goofed up many a time but steered India through sanctions, operationalized India's n-deterrent, but the string of failures that MMS had - too many to excuse! The most dangerous fact is that the man still does not give up on his antics - take the news reports above!

Furthermore, the single mistakes made by previous incumbents do NOT mean MMS gets a free pass on his shameful antics, time and again, whether they be at SeS or thereafter! That Govt is gone! This one is here!

No one has accused the PM of being "asleep at the wheel" too.


Ah, one wishes he was asleep at the wheel. Perhaps the wheel would then be handled by far more competent professionals!

Or perhaps you don't like the economic progress that India continues to make even in these times.


This is hilarious. Those who live in India are well aware of what progress India has and otherwise. They can directly see the umpteen failures of the current administration. As the PM of India, more is expected of him. Do you? Kindly quit with this silly bit about "dont you like kittens" and the like. The economic progress that has taken place in India is despite the current GOI, not because of it. The chances they had, the mistakes they have made, are legion. As with all Govt's. the people of India endure. But they deserve better

The best thing is - if you don't like Dr. MMS, vote for someone else in the next election. I will gladly vote for him again.


You are welcome to return to India and do so. And as regards my voting or otherwise, they are immaterial. We have several years more to go, as much as one is against dynastic politics, given the danger Pak poses to India, its best Shri MMS steps down and is replaced by someone else from within the Congress, which should have no dearth of seasoned, administrators not given to flights of peacenik fancy, motivated by personal glory.
Last edited by Karan M on 23 Jul 2010 04:11, edited 2 times in total.

munna
BRFite
Posts: 1392
Joined: 18 Nov 2007 05:03
Location: Pee Arr Eff's resident Constitution Compliance Strategist (Phd, with upper hand)

Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): July 07, 2

Postby munna » 23 Jul 2010 03:44

Can folks please leave out NDA/Vajpayee/anybododynotinthegovernment as a defense of our Pak policy? If that is the best justification that can come out time and again for the past 6 years then god save us.

Ambar
BRFite
Posts: 1191
Joined: 12 Jun 2010 09:56
Location: Weak meek unkil Sam!

Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): July 07, 2

Postby Ambar » 23 Jul 2010 03:49

ISLAMABAD: Pakistan Prime Minister Yousuf Raza Gilani on Thursday gave powerful army chief General Ashfaq Kayani a three-year extension in the top job.

“I have decided to extend tenure of army chief General Ashfaq Kayani for three years in consultations with President Asif Ali Zardari,” Gilani said in a brief televised address to the nation.

He said the decision has been taken after relaxing the rules and keeping in view the active role played by Kayani in the war against terror.

The premier said that the decision to give the extension to the army chief had been taken to ensure continuity of command, adding that the extension period will start from November 29.

He hoped that the war on terror will lead to a successful conclusion under General Kayani's leadership, he added.

Kayani assumed command of the Pakistan army in November 2007 after his predecessor Pervez Musharraf relinquished command amid international pressure to end his eight years of military rule.

Gilani said that the successful military operation in northwestern regions Swat and Malakand and the tribal region of South Waziristan was possible under the dynamic leadership of General Kayani.

He added that Kayani personally supervised and planned all offensives. -AFP


Guess that was expected..i think Kayani is smart enough not to peeve his real masters - the US. He is probably content being the king maker,after all,it is a open secret he is the puppet master in Pak.

To the experts here : Is it in India's interest to have someone like Kayani in charge of Pak army than a chameleon like Mushy? Although we've had several close shaves post 26/11 ,it is not as bad as it was during Musharraf days.Does this mean that Kayani exhorts a better control on terrorists operating out of J&K than his predecessor did ?


Return to “Trash Can Archive”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 31 guests