Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): July 07, 2010

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): July 07, 2

Postby Raghavendra » 27 Jul 2010 22:47

Pakistan must stop using terrorism as policy instrument: India
http://in.news.yahoo.com/43/20100727/81 ... ism-a.html

Evidence of Pak blackmail, how ISI paid Taliban to hit Indians in Kabul
http://in.news.yahoo.com/48/20100727/12 ... -pa_1.html


Banning burqa can radicalise UK Muslims, Imran warns Brit PM :lol:
http://in.news.yahoo.com/139/20100727/8 ... -musl.html

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): July 07, 2

Postby Nandu » 27 Jul 2010 23:14

Rudradev wrote:On another note I would like to offer my apologies for calling you a "Kangress apologist" some days ago.

No worries. I visit BRF only around once a day, so I don't usually get to respond immediately to posts. Which is a good thing, I guess. :)

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): July 07, 2

Postby ManuT » 27 Jul 2010 23:21

The leaks gave no clue whether India was tipped off about the impending attack.

A suicide bomber rammed a car packed with explosives into the heavily fortified Indian embassy gates on July 7, 2008, killing 58 people and wounding more than 140.



From BR Archives
viewtopic.php?f=23&t=4150&start=200

http://www.indianexpress.com/news/staff ... ck/333720/
Quote:

Quote:
Staff put Embassy back on track, their symbol: a half-burnt pigeon fighting back
Manu Pubby
Posted online: Thursday, July 10, 2008 at 2350 hrs Print Email

Kabul, July 9: They haven’t given it a name yet, but a survivor of Monday’s suicide attack is fast becoming a symbol of hope and recovery at the Indian Embassy here. A half-burnt, tailless pigeon — one of some 200 “resident birds” that ITBP jawans used to feed every morning at the embassy — is being keenly watched for signs of recovery as it limps around the premises. While the bird may never fly again, the Indian Embassy in Kabul is fast getting back to shape and is scheduled to resume normal operations, including issuing visas, by Saturday.

Mangled pieces of metals, a stray shoe, shattered furniture, half-burnt visa forms are reminders of the massive blast that claimed four Indian lives but the Indian mission is keen to start work at the earliest. The Ambassador’s office is functional, the embassy’s direct satellite link with New Delhi has been made operational and even the campus Wi-Fi is back on line. With work on clearing debris in full swing, the Indian envoy is confident about resuming operations by the end of the week.

“We should start work, including issuing visas, by Saturday. The staff’s morale, under the circumstances, could not be better. They are showing remarkable dedication (to get the embassy functional),” Ambassador Jayant Prasad told The Indian Express.

A reason for the fast recovery and lack of structural damage to the mission building was a new security barrier put up by India last week after intelligence inputs indicated a major attack. The hexa-barrier, a thick wire mesh-and-mud barrier covering the embassy on all sides, absorbed the major impact of the blast and saved the building from serious damage.

Prasad said that though the bomber blew the car at the embassy gates, the shockwaves could have brought down the building roof had the barrier not been there.

More than 40 Afghan citizens who had lined outside the embassy to seek visas had a miraculous escape as they were standing behind the hexa-barrier. But those outside the embassy were not so lucky and most casualties took place on the main road.

Eight of the 11 Afghan policemen stationed outside the embassy died on the spot. Eyewitnesses told The Indian Express that 10 women, including five from one family, died even as they were entering the embassy. According to Prasad, several children, who were walking to a school nearby, were also killed in the attack.

While the Indian toll has remained steady at four, the casualty figures of Afghan citizens has been rising sharply in the past three days. While the initial toll was 37 dead, Prasad said that as of Wednesday evening, at least 54 had been confirmed killed. The toll could rise — of the 139 admitted in various hospitals in the city, 61 were said to be in critical condition.

A major tragedy was averted as a busy shopping complex right next to the embassy escaped maximum impact, the hexa-barrier being the deflector.

“I was looking out at the embassy when the blast took place. I was blown into my shop by the impact. When I regained senses, there were body parts strewn all around. People were running around in panic but I was not badly injured,” said 18-year-old Ajmal Nasiri who works at a printing press next to the embassy.

But shops on the other side of the embassy, not protected by the barrier, were totally shattered. A popular travel agency, which booked tickets for Air India, was completely gutted, killing owner Sayed Aninull Slashen and his two young sons.


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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): July 07, 2

Postby Satya_anveshi » 27 Jul 2010 23:35

SwamyG wrote:How far would I be away from the truth if I were to state the following: "The onlee reason BRFites want Unkil to be buried in the Af-Pak chaos is because Unkil was helping TSP for decades."

It is like saying, you started the fire so please put it out.


SwamyG garu,

How's that the true summation of all the different opinofarts on BRF?

One such opinofart is that US is self appointed fireman on this planet and bought gazillion fire trucks. Pakis just give them opportunities to use some of them otherwise what is the sustain the US to keep buying more fire trucks and maintain them in super-duper condition.

Pakis are even ready to burn their house to give unkil an opportunity to practice the fire fighting capabilities and maintain high morale of their fire fighting forces.

The latest leaks are just the evidence of Pakis helping US not just in their home but also in neighboring homes. A few deaths here and there are just collateral damage and the cost of maintaing the fire fighting fleet.

It simply doesn't matter if we want US to be buried in Afghanistan or Pakistan. It is their play and their drama. We are only spectators and should be glad if we don't get hurt in this and celebrate if we can use this for our gains.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): July 07, 2

Postby ramana » 27 Jul 2010 23:44

So did the Pakis fire off their No Dong/Wong? Or did they defer it?

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): July 07, 2

Postby rsingh » 28 Jul 2010 00:09

It seems NoKo has asked Bakistan to give back No -Dong.....................US and S Korea are pressing too hard.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): July 07, 2

Postby A_Gupta » 28 Jul 2010 00:10

US aid to Pakistan 2002-2009 : $12 billion
http://belfercenter.ksg.harvard.edu/fil ... 092009.pdf

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): July 07, 2

Postby satyam » 28 Jul 2010 00:12

^^^^^^^^^^^^

That doesn't include military aid and CIA money.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): July 07, 2

Postby Lisa » 28 Jul 2010 02:14

Cosmo_R wrote:@ vijayk ^^^

Can Americans sue the Pakistani Government in NY just as the Libyans were for Lockerbie...

The answer is no unless the SD declares Pakistan a 'Terrorist State'. Until then, Pakistan has sovereign immunity.

I checked this with the lawyer who filed the Lockerbie suit immediately after 26/11.


Cosmo, what are the practicalities of identifying any Pakistani financial
institutions with a US presence that have a relationship with say, any off
shoot of LET, can they be sued as aiders and abettors of murder?

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): July 07, 2

Postby Sanjay M » 28 Jul 2010 02:19

^^^ I dunno, but I think that US courts have awarded damages to victims of foreign attacks in the past. I suppose Hamid Gul could be sued in the same way.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): July 07, 2

Postby VikramS » 28 Jul 2010 03:21

A_Gupta wrote:Sloppy definitions of "Taliban" permit Brian Cloughley to gas away:
http://www.juancole.com/2010/07/cloughl ... liban.html


Take anything which Juan Cole says with a pinch of salt. He is married to a TSP bibi and duly converted to the ROP.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): July 07, 2

Postby Gerard » 28 Jul 2010 03:36

Lisa wrote:Cosmo, what are the practicalities of identifying any Pakistani financial
institutions with a US presence that have a relationship with say, any off
shoot of LET, can they be sued as aiders and abettors of murder?


Fauji foundation may have US assets

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): July 07, 2

Postby A_Gupta » 28 Jul 2010 04:37

Since 12-April-1988, the World Bank has loaned Pakistan $9,835,684,983.11.
You can put this together by going here: http://go.worldbank.org/JDT96FR750

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): July 07, 2

Postby RajeshA » 28 Jul 2010 04:38

Pakistanis come and kill Indian citizens in India, in Kabul, where ever they can. We know that the Pakis did it, but all we say to ourselves is, they will pay for it someday, and leave everything to karma. We never spell out, how much the Pakis will have to pay. Unless it is spelled out, nothing will ever be extracted, and they will go scot-free. Unless it is spelled out, it is just a momentary empty bluster, a hollow threat and nothing more. Even while it is made, nobody has the confidence, that something will come out of it. It is not taken seriously, neither by the terrorist, nor by the ones making such empty threats of retaliation. The problem is the retribution is not quantified.

If one says, x Indian lives would cost Pakistan x Pakistani lives, then it becomes even more funny. The quantification has to be monetarily. Every terror victim needs to be compensated for their loss, and the compensation has to be extracted from the terror perpetrators.

One thing that annoys me immensely is that Indians just do not understand the right of terrorism victims to get compensation, and that too from terror perpetrators.

There should be a law in India, which promises a victim of terror and his family a fair monetary compensation and makes GoI duty-bound to extract such a compensation.

The minimum price should be ascertained by equivalent compensations for terror in the international arena; the Libyan compensation comes to mind. The total price on each and every life should be a combination of the aspect that they were humans, and Indian citizens, as well as the secondary aspect, that should be ascertained by the court, as to how much the human meant in financial terms to the society. This is the amount, the GoI should be bound by law to extracting from terrorist organizations or State sponsors of terror, and this amount cannot be waived by the GoI, no matter how much time has passed.

GoI should send this bill to the Pakistanis. If the Pakistanis refuse to pay, then India has a case for taking whatever is of monetary worth to Pakistanis by whatever means possible. Then India has a case for undertaking land grab in Pakistan. Just like debt collectors include their expenses of collection to the bill, so too can India. This debt can also carry interest and increase. So if during a land grab, the Indians suffer any losses because of resistance by Pakistanis, then the cost of that can be added to the bill. Land grab is just one method.

Another method would be to get international banks to freeze Pakistani assets and to get those assets to be transferred to India. This can be done by a UN Resolution, if need be, or it can be done by a coalition of the willing.

Let's see a rough calculation, based on the compensation by Libya for Lockerbie and Berlin discotheque bombing:

Code: Select all

Pan Am Flight 103 Bombing over Lockerbie
   For Every Dead (270): $ 10 million

UTA Flight 772 over Chad
   For Every Dead (170) (except Americans): $ 1 million

Berlin Discotheque Bombing
   For Turkish Woman Dead: $ 1 million
   For Serious Injured: $ 350,000
   For Lightly Injured: $ 170,000


In Mumbai Attacks there were 173 dead and at least 308 injured. Some say Taj and Trident-Oberoi suffered a loss of around Rs 800 crores (~ $ 171 million). Then there was loss of business in tourism, hospitality. Other places, which were attacked also suffered some loss. If we (for sake of argument) put the price of life of an Indian at $ 5 million and that of an injured at $ 350,000:

Code: Select all

173 dead  ~ $ 865 million
308 injured  ~ $ 107.8 million
Property Loss  ~ $ 250 million
Business Confidence Loss  ~ $ 500 million
Emergency Services Cost  ~ $ 30 million
Security Services Charges  ~ $ 30 million
Processing Costs  ~ $ 10 million

Total  ~ $ 1.8 billion
Total (Loss of Life and Injuries) ~ $ 1 billion


Only if Pakistanis are forced to cough up this money, would there be acceptance of guilt, humiliation and more importantly pain. Kiyani would face a serious loss of face, if instead of his kabila looting Hindu coffers, instead his kabila is being looted by the banias.

Suddenly terrorism would lose its charm!

Many Indians, may laugh and scoff at the notion, that Indians have a price, but compensation is important to bring terrorism from the pedestal of holy wars to the level of money. If you don't bring jihad to the level of money, you won't be able to take the sheen out of it.

If Pakistanis like to call themselves as victims of terrorism, than India should take it upon her, to give some real meaning to this catch-phrase.

Of course, the terrorists should also get their punishment, but even if the system gives them some pro-forma punishment, the populace of Pakistan which does cheer-leading for the jihadis will get a wake-up call!

If the jihadi points the gun at the bania, the first thing to do, is for the bania to pick the jihadi's pocket. That is the only thing that would keep the jihadi away!

The next time there are Indo-Pak talks, they should be about compensation! All those in the GoI who think or say, that they are above money, and it is not about money, but about justice, blah, blah, should get a kick in their b@lls. If they are serious about tackling terrorism, GoI should make sure to make it about money!

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): July 07, 2

Postby ramana » 28 Jul 2010 04:50

MAybe NRIs can lobby Kerry Lugar to deduct that amount from Paki acct and debit to India.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): July 07, 2

Postby CRamS » 28 Jul 2010 04:55

RajeshA,

How do you think this RNI, Soumitro Das, will react to your compensation proiposal after reading his views on the Mumbai attack & stone-pelting louts in the valley? He actually says TSP has been kind to us for sponsoring terror :-).

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): July 07, 2

Postby satyam » 28 Jul 2010 05:14

^^^^^Indian media has been totally sold . Why do we have such large number of traitors ?

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): July 07, 2

Postby Manishw » 28 Jul 2010 05:19

^^^ These f**ktards should be bumped off and there should be absolutely zero tolerance for terrorism.Even the stone pelters should be airdropped to some remote part of India and their relatives informed and yes we should go about cutting up body parts of dead terrorists so that they don't plan to meet their 72 loved ones(basically piskology also thrown in)

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): July 07, 2

Postby satyam » 28 Jul 2010 05:22

Hate to say it but now i can say why a country 1/16 th of our size ruled us for 200 years. We are full of traitors.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): July 07, 2

Postby ramana » 28 Jul 2010 05:29

You must be located outside India to not see the truth of his writings. TO criticize him you need to live in India and see it thru his eyes!

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): July 07, 2

Postby amdavadi » 28 Jul 2010 05:31

Sau me assi baimaan phir bhi mera Bharat mahan.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): July 07, 2

Postby satyam » 28 Jul 2010 05:31

I am in India. And this writer is a traitor.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): July 07, 2

Postby satyam » 28 Jul 2010 05:32

amdavadi wrote:Sau me assi baimaan phir bhi mera Bharat mahan.


This is not baimaani. This is traitor.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): July 07, 2

Postby ramana » 28 Jul 2010 05:34

Rangudu, Any correction to your prediction?

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): July 07, 2

Postby Y. Kanan » 28 Jul 2010 05:46

shiv wrote:
Muppalla wrote:In a very loose talk with a friend of mine, he said TSPA and TSP leaders are the most patriotic that a nation could probably have.


Mupalla - Pakistanis with an army background or army family background talk like this. The Pakistani army survives on this myth and making others believe this myth.


I see no reason to dismiss this attitude as a "myth". Pakistan's leadership has in fact consistently managed to get away with mass murder while simultaneously being rewarded for their perfidy with vast sums of US taxpayer dollars. Pakistan pulled off the most heinous terror attack in all of human history, and not against some sh*tpot country like India, but against the world's only superpower, and not only got away with it, but came off stronger than ever! I can't think of any nation in the history of mankind to have managed such a feat.

You have to give them credit - Pakistan's ability to survive, even thrive, despite their atrocious behavior against everyone (including the very people who maintain Pakistan as a welfare state) is almost beyond belief. Truly stranger than fiction.

On September 10th 2001, if you'd told me some country would kill 3000 Americans and 1500 US troops, and not only get away with it but successfully extort $50 billion from the very people they're trying to murder, I wouldn't have believed it, especially after seeing how badly Iraq and Yugoslavia fared in the 1990's.
Last edited by archan on 28 Jul 2010 06:40, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: Warning issued. If you need to whine, make sure to not call my country a sh*tpot or you won't last long here.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): July 07, 2

Postby Kamboja » 28 Jul 2010 05:53

Y. Kanan wrote:You have to give them credit - Pakistan's ability to survive, even thrive, despite their atrocious behavior against everyone (including the very people who maintain Pakistan as a welfare state) is almost beyond belief. Truly stranger than fiction.


Survive, yes. Thrive? They seem to be doing exactly the opposite.

Y. Kanan wrote:On September 10th 2001, if you'd told me some country would kill 3000 Americans and 1500 US troops, and not only get away with it but successfully extort $50 billion from the very people they're trying to murder, I wouldn't have believed it, especially after seeing how badly Iraq and Yugoslavia fared in the 1990's.


That's great, but the point is, what has all this achieved for the average Pakistani? At the end of the day, the point of a nation is to serve the interests of its people. Measures like how much money a state has (GDP, $50B) or the size of its armed forces are only proxy measures of the ability of that state to look after its people.

Pakistan has utterly failed, and continues to fail to look after the interests of its citizens on almost every imaginable level - economically, socially, politically, and especially spiritually.

I don't think this deserves admiration, not even grudging admiration.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): July 07, 2

Postby Kamboja » 28 Jul 2010 05:58

In re: impact of wikileaks revelations on the aam Amirkhan...

I think the effect of the sustained bad publicity surrounding Packeeland is starting to permeate into the popular consciousness. First that joker Shahzad, and now these headlines - when even the MSM in the US start talking about it, you know that somewhere in the caverns of the average joe's mind, a dim light has begun to go off.

Today on the subway to work, I was standing next to this WASP holding the NYT and the headlines were screaming something along the lines of 'PAKI PERFIDY IN WOT!!!' -- the chap's expression was 100% furrowed brow as he perused the article.

Made my day :mrgreen:

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): July 07, 2

Postby JwalaMukhi » 28 Jul 2010 06:03

Kamboja wrote:That's great, but the point is, what has all this achieved for the average Pakistani? At the end of the day, the point of a nation is to serve the interests of its people. Measures like how much money a state has (GDP, $50B) or the size of its armed forces are only proxy measures of the ability of that state to look after its people.

Pakistan has utterly failed, and continues to fail to look after the interests of its citizens on almost every imaginable level - economically, socially, politically, and especially spiritually.


That is a wrong way to look at. The average paki exists for sole pleasure and service of Paki army. The paki population solely is at the disposal of the paki army, which utilizes them in their game. So, looking at average paki and feeling his condition is supposed to get better with pouring in of aid is a fools errand. This is very convenient and cheap game for fund suppliers (unkil et.al) and fund raisers(paki army).
Thinking pakistan state as having an army, generally leads to conclusions that unkil and the paki army wants to paint. Pakistan army has a state, and it is willing to do anybody's bidding, whoever is willing to pay it. At the moment, the loaded sugar daddy happens to be unkil. Paki army has the first and only rights in whatever they can lay their hands in an artificial construct of pakistan state. Paki army is wildly successfull in extortion and exemplify in behaving as sub-humans.
So, feeling complacent after looking at the pathetic condition of the average paki is plain misleading.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): July 07, 2

Postby Prem » 28 Jul 2010 06:08

Pak Islam se dar kar bagghe ho, tho Jannat kaise paogai?
http://www.dailytimes.com.pk/default.asp?page=2010\07\28\story_28-7-2010_pg3_2
Pakistani Muslim exceptionalism’
Our imagination of ourselves revolves around what I have come to call ‘Pakistani Muslim exceptionalism’. An overwhelming majority of us are Muslims in official records. But that is an identity that we share with only a billion other Muslims all over the world. There is nothing exceptional about that. So, we have constructed a whole new set of characteristics about us that seem to set us apart from other Muslims in the world. This exceptionalism, particularly, consists of us imagining Pakistan as a fort of Islam and the Muslims in it charged with the distinct aim and objective of securing Islam from all internal and external threats. The creation of Pakistan is almost articulated as a divine intervention or at least something that had divine patronage. As per this theory, Pakistani Muslims must then prepare themselves to fight against a host of conspirators who are there to harm them. These conspirators usually appear in the form of American Imperialism and Hindu Zionism (sic) that are eagerly helped by the ‘real’ Zionist, aka the Israeli state. All three forces are conspiring against not just a Muslim nation but also against a nation-state that was founded as the last bastion of Islam. Nobody can and has been able to forward any proof for it, a fact that has largely been ignored. But then the requirement of some verifiable evidence is largely redundant. What is important is that people imagine themselves as the argument directs, since this achieves two objectives. First, it keeps the narrative of ‘Islam under threat’ alive and, second, in our context it allows us to imagine our exceptionalism because it lets us think of ourselves as different from the other one billion Muslims against whom these three forces do not seem to be conspiring with as much gusto. Many can rightly ask: so what?

NoT that we dont know about the constant Poak Purification Process Playing Pretty Peach Please Pingpong.
To them it is not the nation-state Pakistan that defines Islam for itself; it is Islam that must define the nation-state that Pakistan ought to be. Also, it is their version of Islam that is of more importance here. Therefore, there is a problem when the jihadi mindset does not see the government of the day implementing its interpretation of religion in the country. In a well-functioning state and a democracy one would expect such ideological differences to be sorted out during elections. However, that is not the case in our Islamic Republi
Last edited by Prem on 28 Jul 2010 06:14, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): July 07, 2

Postby Muppalla » 28 Jul 2010 06:10

Shiv, Y.Kanan and Kamboja,

Please do not take the topic as myth. It is valid to say that "Pakistan won the war against US and it survived the onslaught of western forces, but gave the west an escape route to run downhill" if US really recedes back with no changes to (1) Pakistan's geography and (2) Pak still possess nukes.

The person who gave me such an analysis is not Pakistani but a decent non-hindutvawadi mil/strategy type Indian.

We are making a mistake by talking about (1) average Pakistani and (2) Image of pakistan from western standards like standard of living, GDP etc. Average Pakistani is not important. They can do multiple Tinanmen squares with no effect.

Pakistan was formed for a very small fuedal-TFTA section and it is for them only. The anaology for the entire population of Pakistan is like a poultry. We feed the chicks so that then can become meaty and keep giving eggs and on a later day kill the chicken and eat.
Last edited by Muppalla on 28 Jul 2010 06:45, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): July 07, 2

Postby Muppalla » 28 Jul 2010 06:19

In simple terms - If TSPA, Pakistan's geography and nukes survive then we can safely say that Pakistan won the war against whatever they are fighting against. GDP, VDP and other parameters are all a joke and useless.

From the perspective of wherewittal, passion and energy to fight - TSPA fought valantly against the forces that are threatening the concept of Pakistan and they did not compromise a bit. The democratic countries starting from most powerful (US) to zero-aggressive (India) compromised and allowed pakistan to take the victory with one-spin or other.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): July 07, 2

Postby AnimeshP » 28 Jul 2010 06:26

Kamboja wrote:In re: impact of wikileaks revelations on the aam Amirkhan...

I think the effect of the sustained bad publicity surrounding Packeeland is starting to permeate into the popular consciousness. First that joker Shahzad, and now these headlines - when even the MSM in the US start talking about it, you know that somewhere in the caverns of the average joe's mind, a dim light has begun to go off.

Today on the subway to work, I was standing next to this WASP holding the NYT and the headlines were screaming something along the lines of 'PAKI PERFIDY IN WOT!!!' -- the chap's expression was 100% furrowed brow as he perused the article.

Made my day :mrgreen:


Kamboja ... I don't think anything is going to come out of this ... The average joe doesn't give a rat's ass about Pakistan and its perfidy .. In some of the forums I frequent, the whole debate had turned into Repub vs Dem debate by the 3rd or the 4th post on the first page itself :roll:

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): July 07, 2

Postby arun » 28 Jul 2010 06:35

X Posted from the Af-Pak Thread.

The reaction in Afghanistan following WikiLeaks disclosure of classified US Intelligence documents showing the malign role of the Islamic Republic of Pakistan in fomenting Islamic Terrorism in Afghanistan.

The Afghan’s do not seem to be assumed with the policy of the US and its Allies of rewarding the Islamic Republic of Pakistan with large wads of cash even as the Pakistani’s foment Islamic Terrorism in Afghanistan.

Reuters on the reaction of Afghanistan‘s National Security Council and that of Rangeen Dadfar Spanta :

Afghanistan questions U.S. silence over Pakistan's role

More on the Afghan reaction from AFP:

Kabul urges West to review Pakistan policy after leaks

Well said Mr. Spanta 8) :

"It's not justifiable for Afghans to see a country given 11 billion dollars in reconstruction aid and to support its security forces, and then see those same forces training terrorists," said Spanta.

"At least we Afghan politicians are not able to explain this to the Afghan people,"

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): July 07, 2

Postby arun » 28 Jul 2010 06:54

Excerpt dealing with the impact of the WikiLeaks incident and on the inability of the US to take a firmer stand against the Islamic Republic of Pakistan’s fomenting of Islamic Terrorism in Afghnistan from the interview of Fareed Zakaria by CNN:

Reaction to WikiLeaks 'vastly overdone'

July 27, 2010 -- Updated 2211 GMT (0611 HKT) .........................

CNN: What's the impact of the release going to be?

Zakaria: I think the most specific impact is the issue of Pakistan ... the reality is that Pakistan's interest and America's interest are not the same. Pakistan has been maintaining its contact with these militant groups.

The one thing that this report did is to provide enough detail on this set of problems that it's essentially pretty undeniable and it also is very difficult now for the administration to deny that there is a huge problem here -- that the Pakistanis have been playing a double game. That part of it seems to shed light very centrally on the role of Pakistan.

Again to be fair, the Obama administration came into power arguing that Afghanistan needed to be thought of as "Afpak," that Pakistan is very much part of the problem and part of the solution. And they have been working on that. It's not an easy problem because we have limited leverage with Pakistan.

CNN: Why can't the United States take a firmer stance with Pakistan?

Zakaria: If you were to shun and isolate them, it would probably strengthen even further their contacts with the militants. So I recognize that this is a thorny problem for any administration. But I do think it centrally highlights this problem, that you're really never going to solve the Afghanistan problem as long as you have not just a safe haven across the border, but a safe haven in which the government on the other side is playing footsie with the terrorists.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): July 07, 2

Postby shiv » 28 Jul 2010 06:57

Muppalla wrote:Pakistan was formed for a very small fuedal-TFTA section and it is for them only. The anaology for the entire population of Pakistan is like a poultry. We feed the chicks so that then can become meaty and keep giving eggs and on a later day kill the chicken and eat.


Absolutely no doubt about that Mupalla. No disputes. But there are two important points here

1) A ruling elite is always stronger when the people in their lands are happy and satisfied
2) The example of a whole land being ruled by a ruling elite has happened thousands of times in history and Pakistan is just one more such territory.

Let me not bring in Hindutva-non Hindutva here. I use the term "Ram Rajya" innocently. "Ram Rajya" was good because the ruler was good and the people had justice, peace and wealth/happiness.

Now suppose you have a country where people do not have all that, what can the rulers do? Simple. They can use their goons (Pakistan army) to suppress revolt (eg, Okara farms, Balochistan, Gilgit Shias)

But suppose the population becomes so big that there are too many people to manage?

That is what is happening in Pakistan.

There are only two precedents in human history for nations that had populations of more than 100 million people that suddenly had to manage on their own and develop
1) China: China too the confrontational path - but changed midway to a loose capitalism to spread wealth
2) India: India has been desperately trying to spread wealth for 63 years

The key to coming out of political instability from having a very small elite and a huge population is to develop a large middle class who do not face starvation every winter and who no longer want to fight the ruling class. Traditionally nations have developed a large middle class by trade and industry. But trade industry and economy are vital for nations to do that

Now you please analyse which way Pakistan is heading. I have stated my view on this a thousand times.And in the middle of all that recall that China does not allow free ownership of firearms. Neither does India. Pakistan has 15-18 million firearms on the loose.


How far is the "Intense patriotism" of the Pakistani army going to get them? What we are seeing in Pakistan is a result of all these factors. We can choose to be blind to them. but I recommend that we do not blind ourselves to history and facts.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): July 07, 2

Postby shiv » 28 Jul 2010 07:09

Y. Kanan wrote:
shiv wrote:Mupalla - Pakistanis with an army background or army family background talk like this. The Pakistani army survives on this myth and making others believe this myth.


I see no reason to dismiss this attitude as a "myth". Pakistan's leadership has in fact consistently managed to get away with mass murder while simultaneously being rewarded for their perfidy with vast sums of US taxpayer dollars. Pakistan pulled off the most heinous terror attack in all of human history, and not against some sh*tpot country like India, but against the world's only superpower, and not only got away with it, but came off stronger than ever! I can't think of any nation in the history of mankind to have managed such a feat.

You have to give them credit - Pakistan's ability to survive, even thrive, despite their atrocious behavior against everyone (including the very people who maintain Pakistan as a welfare state) is almost beyond belief. Truly stranger than fiction.

On September 10th 2001, if you'd told me some country would kill 3000 Americans and 1500 US troops, and not only get away with it but successfully extort $50 billion from the very people they're trying to murder, I wouldn't have believed it, especially after seeing how badly Iraq and Yugoslavia fared in the 1990's.


Absolutely correct. Pakis are getting on quite well.

The question that stems from this is: Should we (India) become like Pakistan in order to emulate them and "do well"

My suggestion is NO. Pakistan is in my view actually in the sh1t pit. It's elite and army are doing very well but the rest of the country is in trouble.

This is a route that India can still take. Our ministers and our wealthy actually live like the Paki elite. If you are one of them you can live a happy life while the rest of the country declines. I do not want to see that in India. The happiness of the Pakistani elite and their power is a cause for heartburn and possibly jealousy to some - including yourself, but I see things differently from India.

I am currently Indian elite. My status may not be in the top 1% but is quite likely to be within the top 5% and definitely within top 10% in India. India has several million people like me and we can literally rule India and live luxurious lives and look like winners by taking the help of Westerners by selling our lands to them and asking them to help control unruly Indians with aid and weapons. That is after all how the Indian elite managed for 200 years before 1947. That is not what i want.

For that reason I choose not to admire or be jealous of the Pakistan elite who are doing so well and getting away with everything. That is not, in my view, the right way forward for me and my country. I can see that you prefer to think that the Pakis are happier and better off. That is your prerogative. I have my own views on this. Thanks for letting me know your views. I don't agree with them.
Last edited by shiv on 28 Jul 2010 07:15, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): July 07, 2

Postby amit » 28 Jul 2010 07:14

ramana wrote:You must be located outside India to not see the truth of his writings. TO criticize him you need to live in India and see it thru his eyes!



Let me say this Ramana ji. This gent's forte is writing soft pieces about art and artists (he's good writer in the genre), travel, food etc. He's been doing that for a long time.

Getting him to write about issues such as Kashmir and Pakistan and giving it air time on HT is more a reflection of the stupidity that prevails in the editorial board of that paper. If you ask him something like what Indus water treaty is about for example its a good bet he wouldn't have a clue.

Now let me give you a hint: This gent is a long, long time pal of one of the top writers at HT. They used to work together once upon a time. :-)

My feeling is the only thing that needs to be done is ignore such writing. These stuff are like the Vuvuzela horns during the World Cup. They make a lot of noise but have no bearing on the outcome and are soon forgotten. No point in giving bandwidth to them on BRF IMVHO.
Last edited by amit on 28 Jul 2010 07:31, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): July 07, 2

Postby shiv » 28 Jul 2010 07:24

Muppalla wrote:In simple terms - If TSPA, Pakistan's geography and nukes survive then we can safely say that Pakistan won the war against whatever they are fighting against. GDP, VDP and other parameters are all a joke and useless.



IF

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): July 07, 2

Postby Airavat » 28 Jul 2010 07:28

New anti-terror bill

The proposed bill seeks to amend the Anti-Terrorism Act (ATA) 1997. It recommends travel curbs on proscribed organisations whose leaders and workers will neither be able to obtain passports nor will they be allowed to leave the country. No bank or financial institution will be allowed to provide them financial assistance, loans or credit cards. Their arms licences will also be revoked.

Under sub-section 2 of Clause 2, any person possessing illegal explosive material or having illegal links with explosives will also fall within the ambit of terrorism.

Any person found involved in the armed struggle against law-enforcement agencies at individual and group levels or anyone disseminating or preaching his creeds or beliefs through FM radio stations without government approval will also be proceeded against under this act.

acting Senate chairman Mir Jan Jamali referred the bill to the standing committee with instructions to complete deliberations by Friday and bring the bill to the house by Monday so it could be discussed during the next three days.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): July 07, 2

Postby amit » 28 Jul 2010 07:29

shiv wrote:Absolutely correct. Pakis are getting on quite well.


Shiv,

I sometimes wonder, are the Pakis really getting on quite well despite the gazillion dollars that they get Unkil to give them?

Sure the Gernails of the Terrorist Army are better off siphoning off the money, the Rapes are also probably better off. But is the country that is called Pakistan better off and getting on well than it was say one day before 9/11?

Maybe we are looking at the problem within too short a time frame? What would be picture if we take (and should take when discussing a country's future, IMO) a minimum 20-25 years time frame? What is the future of Pakistan within that frame?

You can't run a country perpetually with a gun on to your head. Sooner or later somebody will encourage you to pull the trigger. Once the Amir Khans are out of Afghanistan do you think they'll keep on feeding this monster?

And yes India's Pakistan problem will have to be solved by India and nobody else. The sooner our political class realise this the better.


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