Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): July 07, 2010

Hari Seldon · Post by **Hari Seldon** » 17 Jul 2010 20:53

One has to wonder what it is yindia is waiting for?
To metamorphize into a $5trn khanomy? Better still, $10trn maybe?
Or is it to produce, deploy and then test our ABMs over our major cities?
Is it to get the N-triad up and running before the shooting really begins? What exactly might we be waiting for, I wonder. Wish I knew, I would track that stat with the utmost concentration onlee....

One also has to wonder what Pak is waiting for.
Moi was 400% sure back in Dec'08 that the next 26/11 was just round the corner.
Waiting unkil out of afgn? Waiting out more bum production? waiting for what exactly?

Seems to me things are moving toward some kinda endgame, not steady state. Both parties seem to be waiting for godot to appear before they can let loose and let lose.

Lez see.

arun · Post by **arun** » 17 Jul 2010 21:01

X posted from the Oppression of Minorities thread.

In the Islamic Republic of Pakistan in a likely case of Religious motivated Muslim on Muslim sectarian violence, 16 Muslims of the minority Shia sect are killed in Kurram:

17 July 2010 Last updated at 08:58 GMT

Militants kill 16 in Pakistan convoy ambush

A suspected sectarian attack on a civilian convoy in a troubled tribal area of Pakistan has left 16 dead. ………………

All those killed were Shia Muslims, according to local officials, who said the death toll may rise.

The convoy was heading from Parachinar, in Kurram, to the main regional city of Peshawar when it was ambushed on Saturday in the predominantly Sunni region.

The Kurram tribal district has been a flashpoint for violence between the minority Shias and the Sunni community for several years. …………………..

BBC

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 17 Jul 2010 21:02

Regardless Indians in and out of govt are rallying in support of Pillai garu. and Querishi has scored a major self goal among the WKK Piss brigade for even they are forced to support this move. I think the powers that be in TSP have now realized and are doing U-turn.

The major threat to TSP will come from the merged Taliban in Southern Afghanistan, the Pakiban Wahabandis in TSP and the factions in TSPA. The politicians are puppets.

US cant blame India for not giving more to TSP when TSP is losing its senses and accusing ajaata shatru's like Pillaigaru of being eqaul to their terror rakshasas.
And what was that bit about trying to undermine SMK, the dhoot as being not authorized to negotiate!

Hari the best strategy is to let the enemy do his thing to take care of himself. Its not a zero sum game.

abhijitm · Post by **abhijitm** » 17 Jul 2010 21:09

CRamS wrote:I hope someone at least will drill some bloody sense into MMS's brain that at least for the time being, as AfPak denounement unfolds, he should lock away his peace pipe in the basement. No point talking to TSP for sometime to come.

IMO for this we need a leader from south india or south-west india. Many northen oldie leaders have some kind of root in pakistan, hence carry a soft corner. A southern leader might look pakistan through clear glasses and take decision based on pure national interest rather submitting to the emotional need.

CRamS · Post by **CRamS** » 17 Jul 2010 21:34

ramana,

the jury is still out. Lets wait & watch the coming days if the equivalence between Pillai and Hafeez continues to to roll. If so, then the next US-sponsored move is very clear. India must go slow on public demand for 26/11 action; slowly withering away the need for any meaningful TSP action. Just recall how Mush turned from the villain of Kargil to chief guest welcome on red carpet at India Today, Hindustan Times, and other ToiLet conclaves.

CRamS · Post by **CRamS** » 17 Jul 2010 21:37

abhijitm wrote: IMO for this we need a leader from south india or south-west india. Many northen oldie leaders have some kind of root in pakistan, hence carry a soft corner. A southern leader might look pakistan through clear glasses and take decision based on pure national interest rather submitting to the emotional need.

Well we are stuck with MMS. And he has quite a bit of support. But its important for Indian leadership at all levels to forget smoking peace pipe with TSP, and instead make sure that as AfPak denounement unfolds, TSP will not consolidate its terror machine.

Prem · Post by **Prem** » 18 Jul 2010 02:45

http://news.rediff.com/report/2010/jul/ ... -spies.htm
Taliban publicly 'blow up' two 'US spies'

In yet another show of its 'barbaric' justice, the Taliban [ Images ] blew up two alleged United States spies in a village near Miranshah, the main town in North Waziristan in Pakistan.
According to reports, the Taliban strapped explosives to two tribal men, who were accused of spying for the US, and blew them in full public view. "Taliban terrorists strapped explosive material to their bodies and blew them up publicly," a local administrative official in Miranshah said on conditions of anonymity. The Taliban has carried dozens of public executions of people accused of spng for foreign forces in the ungoverned tribal regions in Pakistan along the Afghanistan border. Under Taliban laws, the relatives of their victims publicly execute murderers. Adulterers are stoned to death and the limbs of thieves are amputated. Lesser crimes are punished by public beatings.

CRamS · Post by **CRamS** » 18 Jul 2010 02:47

Guys, cut me some slack in posting this NYT blog even though its not directly relevant to TSP: Are Tea Parties Racist? Is Al Qaeda?. Reason I am posting that clap trap is because its an example of how you can use hair-splitting arguments to show night equals day. I mean just as tea party Nazis do an equal equal, and in US polics, its democract, republcian dead even equal equal in terms of media coverage, it is also mind boggling that any diabolical act by TSP is cast in equal equal terms with whatever India did or did not do. I am of course refering to equivalence being established between Pillai's honest, truthful observation about TSPA/ISI role in 26/11 with LET's evil demagougery.

r_subramanian · Post by **r_subramanian** » 18 Jul 2010 06:00

Will IMF come to its senses and stop throwing good money after bad?

IMF grills Pakistan over GST issue, fiscal deficit target
The International Monetary Fund (IMF) has asked Pakistan to get its act together by bringing action of both the federal and provincial governments on the same wavelength for meeting the agreed performance criteria of the Fund, otherwise it will be difficult for the IMF staff to satisfy its executive board members and the existing programme of $11.3 billion could be derailed.
The visiting IMF officials also raised objections over the financing plan to bridge the four percent fiscal deficit target due to difficulties in launching the Eurobond as well as $1 billion funds from the Friends of Democratic Pakistan (FODP), so the fiscal deficit target could be revised downward to 3.5 percent of the GDP.
...
The IMF high-ups were quite annoyed because the finance minister reached at the spot of the meeting half-an-hour late ...

link
According to published figures the deficit for 09-10 was 6.2 percent of GDP. I wonder how Pakistan could honestly agree to a figure of 3.5 for the current financial year.

r_subramanian · Post by **r_subramanian** » 18 Jul 2010 06:19

Mr.Gilani (PM of Pakistan) reminds me of the late MGR (the actor/politician who founded AIADMK party and was the CM of Tamilnadu for some years). MGR famously coined 'Annaism' which according to him is a mixture of capitalism, socialism and communism. Mr.Gilani seems to be just as well-versed in economic matters. He is talking of doubling the installed capacity for electric power generation to 40,000 MW in 10 years. Doing some rough calculations and assuming that it costs US $ 1 billon for 1,000 MW, it requires an investment of at least US $ 2 billion a year for the next 10 years. Given that Pakistan is broke, where is the money going to come from?
Plan readied to double power generation

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 18 Jul 2010 06:37

r_subramanian wrote:Will IMF come to its senses and stop throwing good money after bad?

No, it won't. Nobody wants Pakistan to drown. The effort is to keep it afloat.

r_subramanian wrote:
IMF grills Pakistan over GST issue, fiscal deficit target
According to published figures the deficit for 09-10 was 6.2 percent of GDP. I wonder how Pakistan could honestly agree to a figure of 3.5 for the current financial year.

Many a time before, Pakistan has been literally found with its pants down. Wolfensohn was so annoyed with the fudged figures that we were treated to an amusing spectacle of dressing down of the Pakistani Begging Bowl Delegation to Washington. But, there is nothing else Pakistan can do apart from lying, and fudging because its economy never moved on its own steam even when Pakistan used to be falsely proud of being a model economic state in the 60s that Japan and South Korea were supposedly emulating its approach.

svinayak · Post by **svinayak** » 18 Jul 2010 06:43

Muppalla wrote:Who may have approved Pillai to make such statement exactly during talks? Something is not right. I clearly see two sections inside Indian admin (or a coordinated hot+cold approach). One a clear destructor of any talks with TSP while the other is desperate to do something. In every mini round we see a clear pattern.

Good cop - bad cop routine

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 18 Jul 2010 06:43

r_subramanian wrote:He is talking of doubling the installed capacity for electric power generation to 40,000 MW in 10 years.

Oh, that is very simple, where those numbers of 40000 MW and 10 years come from. If India is planning to add 40000 MW of nuclear energy by circa 2020, can Pakistan lag behind ? I am surprised Mr. Gilani did not mention 40001 MW because Pakistan has to be always one up on India (literally).

pgbhat · Post by **pgbhat** » 18 Jul 2010 06:51

LINK wrote:PESHAWAR: The outlawed Tehrik-e-Taliban Pakistan (TTP) in South Waziristan Saturday opposed recruitment of Mahsud tribesmen in Levies Force and termed it an attempt by the government to raise local people against Taliban. Through leaflets circulated in South Waziristan, the TTP warned tribal elders and Ulema of ‘Dray Mahsuds’ meaning the three Mahsud tribes — Manzai, Balolzai and Shamankhel — to oppose recruitment in the Levies or taking up arms against the Taliban. “The recruitment of Levies is a step by the government to raise armed lashkars against the militants,” the TTP said. “If you, Mahsud people, join the force, it would be tantamount to serving the interests of the US and Jews,” the TTP leaflet said. It asked the Mahsud elders and Ulema to think twice before joining the Levies as Taliban would consider the force their enemy.

shynee · Post by **shynee** » 18 Jul 2010 06:56

The day after: India raps Qureshi's etiquette

NEW DELHI: Shah Mehmood Qureshi really couldn't complain about S M Krishna's phone etiquette. During the day-long negotiations, at several times, the entire Indian delegation was left alone in Qureshi's room in the Pakistan foreign office, while the Pakistan delegation stepped out to consult their bosses. In any diplomatic negotiation, it's perfectly normal for officials to stay in touch with their headquarters. Therefore, there is complete mystification in the Indian camp about Qureshi's bellicosity, said sources familiar with the Islamabad.

Airavat · Post by **Airavat** » 18 Jul 2010 06:58

Internet cafés attacked in Lahore

An organisation by the name of Tehreek-e-Tahaffuz-e-Haqooq-e-Pakistan has claimed responsibility for the ‘warning attacks’. Various media organisations received SMS messages just before the explosions. The messages, in addition to claiming responsibility for the blasts in the provincial capital, also pleaded with the government to “take steps to control the spread of vulgarity” and “not to test our patience”.

Four people were injured in the first blast that took place in Crown Internet Café, situated on the first floor of the Crown Arcade, Habibullah Road, Garhi Shahu. The second timed device went off at the Fast Internet Café at Begum Kot, Shahdara and injured three people. Both the cafes were completely destroyed as a result, with shattered glass scattering to a distance of up to 100 feet.

The Civil Defence district officer, Mazhar Hussain told The Express Tribune that each bomb had one kilogramme of low-yield explosives. He confirmed that no shrapnel or ball bearings were recovered from any of the sites, adding that the devices had been manufactured locally.

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 18 Jul 2010 07:26

Timeline on Siachen & Kashmir was the deal breaker

India and Pakistan had agreed to a rough schedule of meetings between different sets of officials as envisaged by the composite dialogue process but the inability of the Indian negotiators to firmly commit to a resumption of Defence Secretary-level talks on Siachen led Pakistan's Foreign Minister to walk away from the deal at hand.

Another plus was the Pakistani side's acknowledgment — for the first time since 2008 — that the gains made in back channel talks on Kashmir during the Musharraf years “were important and useful,” the sources told The Hindu on Saturday.

“We made it clear we were willing to discuss the other three issues {J&K, Siachen & 'Peace & Security'} too but said we need a certain catalysing process. They are more complex so it is better to start with what is more easily achievable.” “Since June, we had been talking of starting meetings between various secretaries — commerce, water resources, culture — and the Pakistanis were very much on board with this idea,” the sources said.

The sources said officials from both sides worked past lunch on July 15 to produce a draft of common talking points for the joint ministerial press conference that was scheduled for later that day. But when the Pakistani side sent the draft to Shah Mahmood Qureshi for his approval, the Minister shot it down, the Indian sources said. Mr. Qureshi had an all-or-nothing attitude, the sources said. "They want to put Humpty Dumpty together again. But the fact is [he] fell off the wall."

The sources said India was proposing that action on the terror front would “catalyse” the process of talking on what Pakistan considered ‘core issues'. “But we didn't put specific goalposts other than to say action against terrorism should be expeditious and should lead to the unravelling of the Mumbai conspiracy.”

Fresh efforts were then made to rework the language of the ‘talking points'. This time, the Pakistanis wanted specific timelines for the resumption of discussion on Kashmir, peace and security, and Siachen. Since it was a given that the two Foreign Secretaries — who normally handle Kashmir and ‘peace and security' in the composite dialogue — would be meeting again, it was relatively easy to blur over the fact that India had not yet agreed formally to resume discussions on the subject. But Siachen proved a harder nut to crack. Apart from the absence of a timeline, the Indian desire to refer to future interlocutors on the subject as “relevant officials” rather than the two Defence Secretaries was another obstacle. As the evening wore on, the Indian side, which acknowledges being in touch with New Delhi on several points, categorically told the Pakistanis that their mandate did not include agreeing to a firm commitment to resume dialogue on Siachen.

Asked about Mr. Qureshi's claim of “instructions” being sent from Delhi, the sources said this was natural and that he too left the room with his officials at one point. “Clearly he was answering to a higher authority. And though he is a Maqdoom, that authority was not God!,” they added.

PS: A quick Google search threw up the following for Maqdoom:

(i) Makhdoom (Arabic root letters Khay, Daal, Meem).This is connoted with the idea of serving; (ii) Maqdoom (Arabic root letters Qaf, Daal, Meem).The root meaning is to offer or to present; or (iii) Maktoum (Arabic root letter Kaf, Tay, Meem) meaning to conceal or to suppress (and is also the name of the ruling family of the United Arab Emirates).Indeed a similar-sounding name is quite common in the Asian subcontinent, particularly in Pakistan

abhishek_sharma · Post by **abhishek_sharma** » 18 Jul 2010 07:49

But Siachen proved a harder nut to crack. Apart from the absence of a timeline, the Indian desire to refer to future interlocutors on the subject as “relevant officials” rather than the two Defence Secretaries was another obstacle.

Why is this an obstacle?

shynee · Post by **shynee** » 18 Jul 2010 08:28

Pakistani among 20 arrested in Uganda

KAMPALA: Inspector General of police in Uganda Kale Kayihura has said that about 20 suspects have been arrested in connection with the bomb attacks that killed 76 people watching the World Cup final on television.

He said that all those arrested have connections with al Shabaab, and include Ugandans, Somalis, Ethiopians and Pakistani nationals. Al Shabaab, Somalia’s most dangerous militant group, claimed responsibility for the attacks.

Airavat · Post by **Airavat** » 18 Jul 2010 08:43

xpost from "Managing Pakistan's Failure" thread:

A_Gupta wrote:Oxford's Multidimensional Poverty Index.....
Why do I mention it?
Because Pakistan is not going to collapse because of poverty any time soon.....

Dig some more for actual data and methodology before launching forth into opinions.

The geniuses at Oxford sat on their bums and used data collected by someone else four years ago:

The indicators are based on participatory exercises with poor people, emerging international consensus and the availability of suitable data. Most are linked to Millennium Development Goals. The index mainly uses data from three household surveys: the Demographic and Health Survey, the Multiple Indicators Cluster Survey and the World Health Survey. Dimensions such as work, safety, and empowerment may be relevant, but data were not available.

So in the case of Pukistan the ophi morons say this:

Country: Pakistan Year: 2007 Survey: DHS

DHS is the "Demographic and Health Survey" and from their site we learn that they in turn used data allegedly collected by the RAPEs themselves, namely "The National Institute of Population Studies (NIPS)" based in Islamabad. And this too had caveats:

A nationally representative sample of 10,023 ever-married women age 12-49 were interviewed. The sample did not include the Federally Administered Northern Areas (FANA), the Federally Administered Tribal Areas (FATA) and restricted military and protected areas.

So the data comes from the RAPEs themselves, therefore unreliable in the extreme, does not include military or protected areas (which means the greater part of Pukistan

), and a population of hundreds of millions is represented by only 10,000 females....supposedly interviewed four years ago.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 18 Jul 2010 08:54

Muppalla wrote:Who may have approved Pillai to make such statement exactly during talks? Something is not right. I clearly see two sections inside Indian admin (or a coordinated hot+cold approach). One a clear destructor of any talks with TSP while the other is desperate to do something. In every mini round we see a clear pattern.

On BR we are never surprised when we hear conflicting voices coming from the US. We have on here people who are intelligent and informed enough to say "Oh that is a neo-con". XYZ is a Democrat, ABC is a Republican, PQR is a cold warrior, LMN is a Rush Limbaugh clone.

However we are puzzled by the appearance of the same democratic difference in views from India because we are unable to apply the classifications that we know so much about in the US. We see often see things as "Kaangress- traitor", BJP nationalist. Anything outside this is a big mystery.

shynee · Post by **shynee** » 18 Jul 2010 08:56

Daily Whines Cartoon

munna · Post by **munna** » 18 Jul 2010 09:02

shynee wrote:Pakistani among 20 arrested in Uganda
KAMPALA: Inspector General of police in Uganda Kale Kayihura has said that about 20 suspects have been arrested in connection with the bomb attacks that killed 76 people watching the World Cup final on television.

He said that all those arrested have connections with al Shabaab, and include Ugandans, Somalis, Ethiopians and Pakistani nationals. Al Shabaab, Somalia’s most dangerous militant group, claimed responsibility for the attacks.

On a related note this excerpt from Dainik Jagran E Paper Jalandhar edition

दीपक कुमार, करतारपुर आज से 25 वर्ष पहले एक मां ने जिगर के टुकड़े को रोजी-रोटी के लिए दिल पर पत्थर रख युगांडा भेजा था। वहां से बेटा तो वापस नहीं आया, हां आया तो बस उसकी मौत का समाचार। युगांडा में गत दिवस हुए बम विस्फोट में शोभी राज उर्फ पहलवान ने दम तोड़ दिया। वर्षो से बेटे के इंतजार में बैठी बूढ़ी मां कृष्णा कांता की आंखें शोभी राज के अंतिम दर्शन भी नहीं कर सकीं। 45 वर्षीय शोभी राज 20 वर्ष की आयु में युगांडा चला गया था। इस दौरान ठेकेदारी करके उसने खूब नाम कमाया व एक नीग्रो लड़की जस्सी से शादी रचाई। उसके दो बच्चे हैं। शोभी राज उर्फ पहलवान उर्फ शविंदर की मौत की खबर सुन कर करतारपुर, गुलाब सिंह वाली गली में शोक की लहर दौड़ गई और घर में सांत्वना देने वालों का तांता लग गया। इस दौरान भाई शिव कुमार व माता कृष्णा कांता का दुख देखा नहीं जा रहा था। छोटे भाई शिव कुमार ने बताया कि उसकी बड़ी बहन साधना, जो कि दरास्लाम (तनजानिया) में रह रही है, गत समय भारत आई तो वह कह रही थी कि अबकी बार भाई शोभी राज भारत आया तो उसका पासपोर्ट फाड़ इसे दोबारा नहीं जाने देना। अपने भाई के इंतजार में बैठे शिव ने शादी तक नहीं रचाई। उसका भाई को घर आने के बाद ही शादी रचाने का प्रोग्राम था। युगांडा में हुए बम विस्फोट में मारे गए करतारपुर निवासी शोभी राज का शुक्रवार को युगांडा में बहन साधना की देखरेख में बड़े बेटे ने हिन्दू रीति रिवाज के साथ पिता को अग्नि भेंट कर अंतिम संस्कार कर दिया।

translation wrote:With heavy heart a mother from kartarpur had sent her son for work in Uganda, 25 years ago. Although the son never came back, a message of his demise did. The Uganda blasts that took place yesterday ended the life of Shobhi Raj aka "Pehelwan". A mother who awaited her son for years could not even get to see the body of her deceased son. 45 year old Shobhi Raj migrated to Uganda at 25 years of age. During the course of his stay he came to establish business as a civil contractor and married a local Ugandan woman whom he lovingly called "Jassi". He has two children from Jassi. A pall of gloom descended in Gulab Singh Wali locality of Kartarpur when the news of Shobhi's demise broke out. The house of family was choc a bloc with people coming over to condole the unfortunate demise. Mrs Krishna Kanta (mother) and Mr Shiv Kumar (brother) were inconsolable upon hearing the news. Shobhi's yonuger brother recounted that his elder sister Sadhna (settled in Dar Es Salam) had insisted on not letting Shobhi go back when around on his next visit to India. An inconsolable Shiv Kumar recounted that he planned to get married during the next visit of his elder brother. Shobhi Raj was cremated on Friday by his elder son as per the Hindu rites under the supervision of his elder sister Sadhna

Indians facing brunt of terror everywhere...

chetak · Post by **chetak** » 18 Jul 2010 09:03

CRamS wrote:
abhijitm wrote: IMO for this we need a leader from south india or south-west india. Many northen oldie leaders have some kind of root in pakistan, hence carry a soft corner. A southern leader might look pakistan through clear glasses and take decision based on pure national interest rather submitting to the emotional need.
Well we are stuck with MMS. And he has quite a bit of support. But its important for Indian leadership at all levels to forget smoking peace pipe with TSP, and instead make sure that as AfPak denounement unfolds, TSP will not consolidate its terror machine.

There seems to be some dirty work at the cross roads.

Has somebody tried to fix something? Why are the pakis hell bent on a one on one talk with MMS and the "thimpu spirit" crap?

Reminds one of the general's petulance after the fix did not work in Agra.

http://thenews.jang.com.pk/daily_detail.asp?id=251427

After the talks

Sunday, July 18, 2010
In the aftermath of the situation in which newspaper headlines have played tirelessly and inevitably on the dialogue between the Indian and Pakistani foreign ministers which led nowhere at all, we now see a blame game unfolding.
...........
Pakistan has insinuated that the Indian prime minister was not aware of the line Mr Krishna would take. It is questionable if Islamabad should attempt to embroil itself in New Delhi's affairs or any power struggles there.

shynee · Post by **shynee** » 18 Jul 2010 09:08

Belated laments - Nutty nation

IT defies explanation that Foreign Minister Qureshi needed an overnight rest to realise that his Indian counterpart, with whom he had a long discussion at Islamabad on Thursday, was “ill-prepared” for the talks. At the joint press conference, he had kept quietly listening to Mr Krishna’s observations, without as much as raising an eyebrow. A look at the reports about the talks, however, would suggest that the Indians were, on the contrary, well-prepared, focused and clear-headed. They kept hammering, perhaps, the sole item on their agenda i.e. their perceived terrorist threat from Pakistan. Mr Krishna’s statement, “India wants prompt action regarding confession of alleged Lashkar-e-Taiba activist, David Headley, regarding the Mumbai attacks,” contains no ambiguity that should go with his being ill-prepared. Nor does the assertion that he was “here to see what action Pakistan has taken so far” call for more than one interpretation. If anything, it was a veiled threat. We should also note his reaction on returning to New Delhi after he had been informed of Mr Qureshi’s outburst. Mr Krishna peremptorily maintained that unless the issue of terrorism was addressed, “all other efforts will be futile”. At Islamabad, he told the media that he had reminded his interlocutors that India awaited the fulfilment of Prime Minister Gilani’s commitment that Pakistani territory would not used against India for terrorist purposes. Mr Qureshi kept listening!

The ‘allegation’ about Krishna-New Delhi phone contacts during the course of the meeting simply falls flat on the ground that there is nothing amiss nor unusual for a delegation on an important mission in a foreign land to consult home or receive instructions from it. It is an accepted diplomatic norm to establish contact in case of need. Even if Mr Krishna had not denied Mr Qureshi’s so-called allegation and said that he had been on the telephone line with headquarters, it would not merit any comment. It would, though, definitely raise laughter in diplomatic circles. That Islamabad ceded a lot of ground to New Delhi was also evident from Mr Krishna’s other remarks that remained unquestioned by our Foreign Minister. One wonders why our leaders accuse India of involvement in terrorist acts in Pakistan, if they do not have the courage to confront it with facts. This is not the first time that New Delhi has openly stated that it has not been given any proof.

chetak · Post by **chetak** » 18 Jul 2010 09:09

Acharya wrote:
Muppalla wrote:Who may have approved Pillai to make such statement exactly during talks? Something is not right. I clearly see two sections inside Indian admin (or a coordinated hot+cold approach). One a clear destructor of any talks with TSP while the other is desperate to do something. In every mini round we see a clear pattern.
Good cop - bad cop routine

The only person who could have approved this statement and the timing is PC. MMS would have stayed very very clear of PC.

Bureaucrats are extremely wary of a politician who barks little but bites more.

Muppalla · Post by **Muppalla** » 18 Jul 2010 09:14

The day after: India raps Qureshi's etiquette

Shah Mehmood Qureshi really couldn't complain about S M Krishna's phone etiquette. During the day-long negotiations, at several times, the entire Indian delegation was left alone in Qureshi's room in the Pakistan foreign office, while the Pakistan delegation stepped out to consult their bosses. In any diplomatic negotiation, it's perfectly normal for officials to stay in touch with their headquarters. Therefore, there is complete mystification in the Indian camp about Qureshi's bellicosity, said sources familiar with the Islamabad.

For the Indian side, the signal was that Pakistan did not want to negotiate. The reason remains a bit of a mystery. It could be that the Headley revelations about ISI involvement in Mumbai was the straw that broke the camel's back in the Pakistan army establishment and they found the home secretary's revelations to be an excuse. Or it could be that Pakistan thought that pushing India to talk on Kashmir when there was ongoing turmoil in the state was the right thing to do.

Whatever, it has brought back memories of the 2001 Agra summit, which also ran aground when Pervez Musharraf wanted to put Kashmir as the "core" issue in a joint statement and refused to budge.

The way forward is less clear, though evidently India will have to fix the breach, even if Pakistan doesn't. Krishna and Qureshi are scheduled to meet next week in Kabul during the peace conference. Whether they decide to move on will be watched carefully. The Indian proposals on resumption of dialogue are still valid, say sources. So if Pakistan wants to pick up on them they can.

The above is certain as MMS and Aman Ki Asha lines of thought will prevail at the end of the day. Another day for another drama.

munna · Post by **munna** » 18 Jul 2010 09:23

Muppalla wrote:The above is certain as MMS and Aman Ki Asha lines of thought will prevail at the end of the day. Another day for another drama.

A lot is riding on the coat-tails of political situation, pray hard that key electoral reverses in states hit Peace Makerji and a few high profile political mobilizations take the more wind out of UPA=II's sails. At any point in time till a year before next elections ie 2013 Peace Makerji will be tempted to be a "visionary" if he believes there is surplus political capital to be expended. I made a post ages ago regarding strengthening the hawks in and out of government. The nationalist constituency in India should cultivate both UPA and NDA to have a veto on any future pappi jhappi affairs.

Muppalla · Post by **Muppalla** » 18 Jul 2010 09:41

munna wrote: A lot is riding on the coat-tails of political situation, pray hard that key electoral reverses in states hit Peace Makerji and a few high profile political mobilizations take the more wind out of UPA=II's sails. At any point in time till a year before next elections ie 2013 Peace Makerji will be tempted to be a "visionary" if he believes there is surplus political capital to be expended. I made a post ages ago regarding strengthening the hawks in and out of government. The nationalist constituency in India should cultivate both UPA and NDA to have a veto on any future pappi jhappi affairs.

Absolutely. I guess it is already started working that way. We see Army chief, and occassional hawkish statements from defense and home babus blowing hot while the PMO and EAM folks blowing cold. Hopefully we may be able to predict in future when a structure forms.

It was awesome to see Pillai statementsexactly at the time of meeting has dramatically collapsed the meeting. There could be several interpretations to this.

The chanikyan one: MMS orchestrated the whole thing step-by-step to kill two birds. One to talk to keep the international comunity in good humor and two to keep the talks focussed on terror onlee.

The amatuerish one (as defined by BR beeshmapitahmahs): there are clear divisions in the GOI. The hawkish folks ensured that MMS and EAM does not go beyond the mandate.

arun · Post by **arun** » 18 Jul 2010 09:42

In the Islamic Republic of Pakistan sales of BMW car models soar 180 % during the year ………………… to reach 14 cars sold.

BMW sales growth hits 13pc

Meanwhile BMW records sales of 3,941 cars for the year ended March 2010 in India:

BMW targets leadership slot with new 5 Series

sum · Post by **sum** » 18 Jul 2010 09:42

Wont MMS be the last ever pre-partition born PM for Desh?

Am hoping that any future PM ( of any party) wont have these grand delusions like the Pak born oldies like MMS, IKG etc seemed to have..

Sanjay M · Post by **Sanjay M** » 18 Jul 2010 09:47

Maybe Pakis like to drive mercedes

Hari Seldon · Post by **Hari Seldon** » 18 Jul 2010 09:53

One has to fear for the so-called hawkish faction in goi.

The fate of the hawkish-lite sri shyam saran, sidelined n ejected unceremoniously in favor of the dovish sri whatshisname ssm as NSA rings ominous onlee.

Once before, the nationalists had to go out on a limb to snatch status quo from the jaws of sure defeat when the neeli pagdi almost shoved magnanimity on siachen or some such harebrained disaster on this long-suffering nation of ours.

Like kissinger (or was it nixon?) once said of insurgents, the doves need only to win once for the country to lose permanently (haji pir anyone?) and the hawks have to win everytime to keep the country from losing onlee.

JMTs and other std disclaimers follow, as usual.

sum · Post by **sum** » 18 Jul 2010 09:58

The fate of the hawkish-lite sri shyam saran, sidelined n ejected unceremoniously in favor of the dovish sri whatshisname ssm as NSA rings ominous onlee.

Even that happened only after another "Hawk-lite", MKN was shoved out.

The person who would have to really worry would be the only remaining hawk, PC (Shri Pillai will only follow the footsteps of his political master and cannot be deemed influential).

The kind of doves in the current cabinet is really mindnumbing with the likes of uber-WKK , Mani Shankar Aiyer, leading the pack ( he even apperas on behalf of Pak on all news channels

). So, must be tough to be a hawk in MMS cabinet..

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 18 Jul 2010 10:04

Mani Shankar Aiyar is not in the Cabinet.

A_Gupta · Post by **A_Gupta** » 18 Jul 2010 10:08

arun wrote:In the Islamic Republic of Pakistan sales of BMW car models soar 180 % during the year ………………… to reach 14 cars sold.

BMW sales growth hits 13pc

Meanwhile BMW records sales of 3,941 cars for the year ended March 2010 in India:

BMW targets leadership slot with new 5 Series

Good to know! But it is the poor becoming richer rather than the rich becoming richer that is necessary to break the camel's back (or goat, or whatever).

munna · Post by **munna** » 18 Jul 2010 10:20

Hari Seldon wrote:One has to fear for the so-called hawkish faction in goi.

The fate of the hawkish-lite sri shyam saran, sidelined n ejected unceremoniously in favor of the dovish sri whatshisname ssm as NSA rings ominous onlee.

Yes, this event was a cause of extreme frustration. However it would be unfair to assume that Peace Maker does not has to spend precious political capital every time he does pappi-jhappi to Paqees. Pillai was not pilloried and disowned immediately and GOI was surprisingly restrained in its pappi-jhappis.

Once before, the nationalists had to go out on a limb to snatch status quo from the jaws of sure defeat when the neeli pagdi almost shoved magnanimity on siachen or some such harebrained disaster on this long-suffering nation of ours.

Phew, yes. However it is to be noted that this time everything was out in the open and government could not hide its schizophrenia from public. The hypothetical estimates of faction between GOI have turned out to be true from the looks of it.

Like kissinger (or was it nixon?) once said of insurgents, the doves need only to win once for the country to lose permanently (haji pir anyone?) and the hawks have to win everytime to keep the country from losing onlee.

JMTs and other std disclaimers follow, as usual.

Well in the world of politics even the 'time' itself may become irrelevant sooner than later. I take it this way that hawks have to come to wield veto in the form of covert co-ordination across party lines to threaten the WKKs into submission. Technically speaking the WKKs, Track-II, artistes and assorted media cheer leaders are in a desperate minority because they have an NDA entirely against them and they lack complete support of UPA-II. All interested parties should use this cleavage to cause a stalemate. Make it seem more of a question like are you with Indians or those violent &*^&&!

And yes there will be desperate and even more vigorous sallies in the coming future by our own "pawki-talkies"

to lay prostrate in Lahore durbar, pop those BP pills now jingos.

abhishek_sharma · Post by **abhishek_sharma** » 18 Jul 2010 10:28

Kanwar Sibal was very reasonable last night on NDTV. I thought he was a WKK.

chaanakya · Post by **chaanakya** » 18 Jul 2010 10:40

I do not want to visit India for a leisure trip

Islamabad: Pakistan Foreign Minister Shah Mahmood Qureshi on Sunday upped the ante by saying he was unwilling to travel to New Delhi for talks unless India is prepared to hold a "meaningful, constructive and result-oriented" dialogue to resolve outstanding issues with Pakistan.

"I do not want to visit India for a leisure trip. I want to go for meaningful, constructive and result-oriented talks if the right atmosphere prevails and if they are fully prepared (for talks)," Qureshi said after addressing a joint news conference with visiting British Minister Sayeeda Warsi.
{snip}
Qureshi reiterated his assertion that Krishna had come to Pakistan with a limited mandate. "At our talks, I said that they (Indian side) should raise terrorism if it was among their priorities because it is also our concern. You can raise (the) Mumbai (attacks) but we have our concerns," Qureshi said.

Among Pakistan's concerns is the situation in Jammu and Kashmir, where curfew has been imposed and there are killings, he said.

Qureshi contended that India raised its concerns and "then became selective" in taking on Pakistan's concerns. "If you (India) are answerable to your people on terrorism, we too are a democracy and have to satisfy our people," he said.

paramu · Post by **paramu** » 18 Jul 2010 10:47

Pakistan Foreign Minister Shah Mahmood Qureshi should not visit India until he has something to give to India regarding the terrorists who attacked India.
None of the people from Pakistan are welcome inside India