Indian Naval Discussion

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Craig Alpert » 05 Jan 2011 07:19

Coastal Security Immediate Agenda of Govt: Antony
Defence Minister A K Antony today said coastal security has become the "immediate agenda" of the government in view of pirate attacks on ships and patrolling has been intensified along vulnerable areas by the Navy and Coast Guard.

"In earlier days, we considered our coastal region more secure. But that is history. Fourteen ships have been attacked by pirates off Lakshadweep. Such attacks will affect the peace and security of the nation. Coastal security has now become the immediate agenda of the government," he said.

Antony was speaking after laying the foundation stone for the Rs 600 crore mega National Institute for Research and Development in Defence Shipbuilding (NIRDESH) at nearby Chaliyam.

He said NIRDESH will be the fifth defence project in Kerala. Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd has already started a unit in Kasargod, Bharath Earth Movers Limited has one in Palakkad. Bharat Electronics Limited has a factory at Kochi and there is a Brahmos unit at Thiruvananthapuram, he said.

-------------------
In his special address, Raj Kumar Singh, Secretary Defence Production, Ministry of Defence, said that the institute would specifically focus on enhancing self-reliance in production capabilities relating to all kinds of warships, submarines and other related platforms that are required by the Indian Navy and Coast Guard to safeguard our long coastline and protect the maritime interests of India.

While we have successfully constructed warships and submarines in India, R and D in various disciplines of warship construction including detail designing, system integration, and a plethora of other aspects leading to drawing board to delivery of ships on our own, needs to have a sharper focus. he said.

The objective of Nirdesh was to promote research and Development relating to warship and submarine design and to provide impetus in developing composite and complete indigenous capability to meet future demands of ships and submarines by the Indian maritime security agencies, he said.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby vasu_ray » 05 Jan 2011 07:57

They can plan to have a OTH radar network by installing HF towers at each of the 46 coastal surveillance stations along the whole coastline, this radar network with a range of 2000-3000km will help in monitoring the high seas

SAR by the way of networking these stations allows for all weather capability

For the R&D phase probably they can do it in 5 years time, now that they are close to wrapping up the LRTR with a 1500km range this year

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby ASPuar » 05 Jan 2011 13:59



Oh no... not another unnecessary time and resource consuming boondoggle! I wonder if it will ever see the light of day.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby chackojoseph » 05 Jan 2011 19:38

Oh No ASPuar, another waste sanctioned. :lol:

Indian Navy to get 4 more Kolkata Class destroyers

The Cabinet Committee for Security has cleared the follow on order for the Rs 35,000 crore Kolkata Class destroyers. Four more of the Kolkata Class destroyers / Project 15 B will be constructed in the Mumbai's Mazgaon Docks. The Project 15 B ships are estimated to enter service by 2017.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Pratyush » 05 Jan 2011 20:01

^^^

Any news on the follow on P17 ships other then the first 3

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Rahul M » 05 Jan 2011 20:08

Any news on the follow on P17 ships other then the first 3

don't think there will be. the next on that front is the P17A.

Indian Navy to get 4 more Kolkata Class destroyers
chacko, are you sure it will be called the kolkata class ? 15B is quite different from 15A after all.

ASPuar wrote:


Oh no... not another unnecessary time and resource consuming boondoggle! I wonder if it will ever see the light of day.

:roll: even our chinese drones manage for meaningful flames.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby ASPuar » 05 Jan 2011 20:16

chackojoseph wrote:Oh No ASPuar, another waste sanctioned. :lol:

Indian Navy to get 4 more Kolkata Class destroyers

The Cabinet Committee for Security has cleared the follow on order for the Rs 35,000 crore Kolkata Class destroyers. Four more of the Kolkata Class destroyers / Project 15 B will be constructed in the Mumbai's Mazgaon Docks. The Project 15 B ships are estimated to enter service by 2017.


ChackoJosephji, you are new here, and quite keen on DRDO, I know. As I understand it you are also a writer on defence issues.

But the record so far has been dismal. Yes, I know, when-starting-from-ground-zero-we-need-to-make-allowances-blah-blah... but even when making allowances, one should be careful not to bankrupt onesself. I am not one for outside purchases, and the Naval Design Bureau seems to be doing a much better job than anyone else for the Navy. In theory I support the DRDO. But It is not ridiculous to demand return on capital employed. And DRDO has NOT been doing a good job of delivering returns. And this is just the latest example of DRDOs lack of focus. Running off on non critical projects, when urgent needs lie unfulfilled for years.

When (if at all) this AIP contraption finally sees the light of day (in even a semi working condition), I will personally send you twenty dabbas of mithai (A la dormant comrade Rakesh, with his Akulas). But until then I am keeping my enthusiasm levels (very) low, and hoping that DRDO concentrates on at least completing work on all of the major projects it already has in hand, which are already terribly delayed, before rushing off to start new ones.

I have great respect for our defence scientists, but modesty, focus, and a fair assessment of their own capabilities, are not amongst their many good qualities.

BTW, Kolkata class have nary a thing to do with DRDO, and are successfully produced simply because DRDO involvement is kept to a minimum, and most of the work is done by the service itself.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby ASPuar » 05 Jan 2011 20:21

Rahul M wrote: :roll: even our chinese drones manage for meaningful flames.


Sigh. Its my opinion that this project is drawing resources that could be better used, into an unnecessary vortex. My two cents? Dump this silly project, and concentrate on better engine tech for surface ships so we dont need to buy from Zorya, GE, & Co. Worry about missile tech for the Navy. Worry about developing SAM systems. Radars. Sonars.

DRDO is not a holy cow (though some treat it so, here), far from it. Their blunders are sufficiently public that they cannot be wished away. Saying something about it does NOT constitute a flame. :roll:

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Pratyush » 05 Jan 2011 21:04

Rahul,

That was my intention to ask by what time we can expect to see additional ships in service. We are usually looking at 10 year period for a new surface ship (From Keel laying to commissioning). So if we are to see additional ships in service before 2020 follow on ships have to be approved in the next 18 months max.

For that to happen the file has to be prepared and put into motion.

JMT

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Kanson » 05 Jan 2011 21:06

ASPuar,

I guess you are either ignorant or prefer to give Philip some rest by thrusting yourself into his role - bashing. :lol:

Ignorant becoz, it the Navy which roped in DRDO for this. Why? It doesn't feel satisfied with the AIP offered by foreign entities in terms of safety as well as performance as it demands.

Pls take time to check this.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby chackojoseph » 05 Jan 2011 21:08

ASPuar wrote:
ChackoJosephji, you are new here, and quite keen on DRDO, I know. As I understand it you are also a writer on defence issues.

When (if at all) this AIP contraption finally sees the light of day (in even a semi working condition), I will personally send you twenty dabbas of mithai (A la dormant comrade Rakesh, with his Akulas).


You know, you will have to send me the sweets. :rotfl:

I have been keeping quite till date and wanted DRDO to bring out the news. I have seen the working prototype myself among few other things in NMRL last year. I will try to get the article approved again (last year it was rejected). If they permit, I will post. I saw it before you even knew about it.

Sir, I have staked my reputation backing a lot of DRDO projects which are seeing light of the day.

But, I will send you sweets when it happens. I am sure about the success and will be happy to send you the sweets.

I have deliberately gone slow on DRDO articles as other media has started notice of it.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Pratyush » 05 Jan 2011 21:31

The work done by the DRDO for the fleet is for some strange reason :P highly regarded by the navy. They have this attitude that it will be made to work. Not only that they are extreamly happy with what the drdo does for them.

We need to recommend to the navy to stop appreciating the work done by the DRDO and import the weapons onlee.

On a serious note, if the AIP of the DRDO meets the service requirements. Then it will go a long way towards finalizing the P 75 design. Cause whats the point of having an AIP if you don't have a boat which will use it :P

NO............

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Singha » 05 Jan 2011 21:51

my chankian idea - engine tech (naval) is not a 'controlled' substance. GE/zorya/pielstick/wartsila will happily sell to all and sundry. but AIP tech is closely guarded by france and germany and price will be quite high. if we can prototype and show some domestic systems, these guys will be more ready to negotiate if at all we want to buy from them later.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Pratyush » 05 Jan 2011 21:59

Down with the Import lobby................

Even today they will sell the AIP if the inclination to go for it exists in the IN. Remember that the Navy turned down the DCN offer for MESMA for the the last two Scorpeans.

Sp if the domestic item reaches maturity. No reason why the Navy will not got for it. Even for the existing Scorpeans as a MLU.

The wish I have for the P 75I is that it has to be in the same displacement category as the Japanese SSKs. They are the worlds largest conventional SSKs in service today.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby ASPuar » 05 Jan 2011 22:27

ChackoJosephji, you are correct, unlike you, I am not so close to the DRDO lobby, and so do not have access to behind the scenes photo ops organised by them. No disrespect to you, but please also remember that these photo ops can be staged, and the extent of functionality misunderstood by those not intricately involved with the projects. But, if what you say is correct, then indeed it would be a reason to celebrate.

Do not misunderstand. I am not flaming, nor bashing, nor anything else. I do respect the DRDO chaps. But I also feel that they suffer from the same malaise which has afflicted other civil services, viz. lack of accountability. Nevertheless, they are doing actual work which has benefited many. So kudos to them.

I will wait for the news of the success of this AIP system. When it comes, please send me the name of your preferred (sweet) poison, and I will be pleased to dispatch same to you through the post office! :wink:

@Singha: I think your Chankian idea makes good sense, birather...

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby D Roy » 05 Jan 2011 23:57

x-post from the missiles thread

Well if we must,

MDB is run by CAST, which is very well connected to put it simply.
read the original article here
http://mdb.cast.ru/mdb/4-2010/item1/article2/

The gentleman is the same person who talked about kirovs and oscars just before Medvedev's visit.

The most important statement however was this although it is unconnected to missiles per se:

The future Talwar class Batch 3 frigates will also be equipped with the new missile, regardless of where they will be built.

Hello Pipavav!

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Gaur » 06 Jan 2011 02:04

ASPuar wrote:
Rahul M wrote: :roll: even our chinese drones manage for meaningful flames.


Sigh. Its my opinion that this project is drawing resources that could be better used, into an unnecessary vortex. My two cents? Dump this silly project, and concentrate on better engine tech for surface ships so we dont need to buy from Zorya, GE, & Co. Worry about missile tech for the Navy. Worry about developing SAM systems. Radars. Sonars.

DRDO is not a holy cow (though some treat it so, here), far from it. Their blunders are sufficiently public that they cannot be wished away. Saying something about it does NOT constitute a flame. :roll:

ASPuar,
What has one to do with other? Developing an AIP & a Gas Turbine Engine will require different teams with set of skills. AIP will have to do more with chemical engineering skills while turbine needs focus on material engineering. Granted, that is a simplistic picture and there are some common areas but by and large the teams will be different. So, how will developing an AIP take away resources from Engine reasearch? Please don't tell me the problem will be funds.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Karan M » 06 Jan 2011 02:14

ASPuar wrote:But the record so far has been dismal.


Please specify.Granted there have been delays and challenges, and even the occasional failure, but these do not detract from the laundry list of successes in diverse fields such as missiles, electronics, and armaments. Most of these have been accomplished with India under heavy sanctions (hence the need to "reinvent the wheel") and with very little resource allocation. As things stand, practically every defence item India has had any success in, has a DRDO hand in it. Its something that even the biggest critics of the DRDO have started to admit given the huge orders the organization (or rather the companies who manufacture its designs) has won in just past few years.

Yes, I know, when-starting-from-ground-zero-we-need-to-make-allowances-blah-blah... but even when making allowances, one should be careful not to bankrupt onesself.


DRDO's investment in its projects stands at around Rs9000 Crore. Orders placed stand at Rs 100,000 Crore, with orders for far more in the pipeline & being allocated through the usual process. So please specify, how exactly is India bankrupting itself.

I am not one for outside purchases, and the Naval Design Bureau seems to be doing a much better job than anyone else for the Navy. In theory I support the DRDO. But It is not ridiculous to demand return on capital employed. And DRDO has NOT been doing a good job of delivering returns. And this is just the latest example of DRDOs lack of focus. Running off on non critical projects, when urgent needs lie unfulfilled for years.



This is rhetoric. Please specify as to the data regarding return on capital employed, DRDO "not doing a good job of delivering returns", "lack of focus", and "non critical projects". I fear your mail displays a lack of understanding about what is even critical and non critical, which cannot be wished away by using rhetoric. In particular, how is AIP non critical? Per the Navy it is a vital strategic ability that enables conventional submarines to be more effective. Only a handful of countries have a lock down on this technology & they are charging an arm and a leg for it. And as matter of fact, the options currently available are not exactly optimal either. They all have some defect or the other, from an operational standpoint.

When (if at all) this AIP contraption finally sees the light of day (in even a semi working condition), I will personally send you twenty dabbas of mithai (A la dormant comrade Rakesh, with his Akulas). But until then I am keeping my enthusiasm levels (very) low, and hoping that DRDO concentrates on at least completing work on all of the major projects it already has in hand, which are already terribly delayed, before rushing off to start new ones.


This line of thinking does not really make sense as the DRDO is not a monolithic organization which works sequentially on programs. There is no one group at DRDO which is working on everything. Different labs do different things, and in parallel. Some are more successful than the others. Again, this may depend on so many factors, including the technology, the challenge, service requirements, support from local industry, etc. In this specific project, on my reading, news reports note that it is the Navy which asked NMRL (a naval lab) to work on AIP. So this has very little to do with other major projects or the like or even those of other services.

I have great respect for our defence scientists, but modesty, focus, and a fair assessment of their own capabilities, are not amongst their many good qualities.


Let us turn this around. Is your mail "modest" - as in is it balanced? Does it have focus - as in details? Does it have a fair assessment of capabilities - as in the information? Given the lack of details in your mail, one would daresay, it is your view around civil military relations, and turning everything into a bloody civilians versus the effective military focus, which seems to be dominating your thoughts. I see little to no respect in your comments either.

BTW, Kolkata class have nary a thing to do with DRDO, and are successfully produced simply because DRDO involvement is kept to a minimum, and most of the work is done by the service itself.


This is one more indication (reference underlined portion) that your comments are more around your personal prejudice as versus facts. Reading Wiki, many of the critical systems are of DRDO-BEL design, manufactured by BEL and other PSU & private companies. Also, I know for a fact that as recently as a few years back, the Navy was handing more and more design work to DRDO to make its ships more effective in several criteria (they approached worldwide designers and the options for procuring technology off the shelf were either too expensive or not available, whereas India had built up competence).
Last edited by Karan M on 06 Jan 2011 02:28, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby John » 06 Jan 2011 02:27

D Roy wrote:The future Talwar class Batch 3 frigates will also be equipped with the new missile, regardless of where they will be built.

It should be regardless of where they will be built in Russia... Only reason we are procuring Talwar is because they are cheap and Russians can build them fast.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Karan M » 06 Jan 2011 02:36

ASPuar wrote:
Rahul M wrote: :roll: even our chinese drones manage for meaningful flames.


Sigh. Its my opinion that this project is drawing resources that could be better used, into an unnecessary vortex. My two cents? Dump this silly project, and concentrate on better engine tech for surface ships so we dont need to buy from Zorya, GE, & Co. Worry about missile tech for the Navy. Worry about developing SAM systems. Radars. Sonars.


Reading this makes it clear that your opinions are not much around facts!

AIP - a "silly project"? Nothing needs to be even said here.
"Engine tech" - AIP, in a manner of speaking "is engine tech". Otherwise, HAL & other PSUs are happily putting together engines & the Navy seems ok with that source of supply.
Regarding "missile tech for the Navy" - with the Brahmos already delivered, the strategic missile program for the SLBM also there, with SAMs via the LRSAM program..
Radars & Sonars - again, check Wiki - there seem to multiple DRDO sonars (made by BEL) already on Naval ships & there are radars also being made ready..

DRDO is not a holy cow (though some treat it so, here), far from it. Their blunders are sufficiently public that they cannot be wished away. Saying something about it does NOT constitute a flame. :roll:


The point is to rely on facts, not just rhetoric. Otherwise, its just no use, and quite akin to the noise that Chinese guy is creating in the space thread.
Last edited by Karan M on 06 Jan 2011 02:42, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Karan M » 06 Jan 2011 02:40

D Roy wrote:Well if we must,

MDB is run by CAST, which is very well connected to put it simply.
read the original article here
http://mdb.cast.ru/mdb/4-2010/item1/article2/


Thanks, this is the first report I am seeing of overall numbers of Brahmos orders from Army. So the Navy orders (presumably) may be equal or higher. It also notes the IA/IAF/IN total demand is 1000 missiles, and the export orders are being held back to meet local demand, which actually ties in with facility expansion.

The gentleman is the same person who talked about kirovs and oscars just before Medvedev's visit.
[/quote]

Could you explain this and what is the significance?

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby andy B » 06 Jan 2011 04:27

Rahul M wrote: chacko, are you sure it will be called the kolkata class ? 15B is quite different from 15A after all.


Bongali Breaperi any info on what are the differences...I always thought that it'd be more stealtheir, bigger SAM and Brahmos load? and may be better radar, EW, ESM ityadi....

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Viv S » 06 Jan 2011 04:36

With regard to the second line of submarines the MoD is expected to allocate about $11-12 billion. A modern diesel-electric submarine could be bought for around $300 million. Assuming it rises to $500 million by 2020, that still leaves a heap of change left over.

My question to the well-informed is this - seeing as there is nothing really 'next-generation' in the works anywhere, is it feasible to consider the acquisition of a SSN from the west (unlikely yes, but it wouldn't be the first time an exception has been made for India). Something along the lines of the Astute class, Barracuda class and Yasen class competing for the order. It'll certainly fit the price-performance bracket better, though the brass has made it clear that the shrinking SSK fleet is a major concern.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Craig Alpert » 06 Jan 2011 04:58

andy B wrote:
Bongali Breaperi any info on what are the differences...I always thought that it'd be more stealtheir, bigger SAM and Brahmos load? and may be better radar, EW, ESM ityadi....


Current Project 15 A Kolkata has a displacement of 6800 tons, while Project 15 B would have 8000 tons. Other than that, it will differ from its predecessor only in weaponry and sensors.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby srai » 06 Jan 2011 05:09

Rahul M wrote: chacko, are you sure it will be called the kolkata class ? 15B is quite different from 15A after all.


It will be named a different class. As soon as you put a variant "A", "B" etc, IN tends to refer to them as a new class.

I would think out of the remaining major cities, the lead class ship will be named either the Bangalore or the Hyderabad. For a while P-15A was speculated to be the Bangalore class but that changed to Kolkata and the two other P-15A ships were named Kochi and Chennai. So maybe IN will name the P-15B Bengaluru now :)

Pretty much guaranteed:
* Bengaluru
* Hyderabad

Other Possible names:
* Lucknow, Ahmedabad, Nagpur, Kanpur, Patna
* Jaipur, Jodhpur, Jamnagar
* Ranchi, Panipat, Cuttack, Porbandar
* Agra

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby putnanja » 06 Jan 2011 05:12

Chindits too is reporting it as Kolkata class destroyers. However, she does mention it to be Project 15B, to be built by 2017

CCS Clears Four Follow-On Kolkata-Class Destroyers!!

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby D Roy » 06 Jan 2011 08:41

Karan M,

take a look at this to understand the context.


"In case China develops its fleet of aircraft carriers, Russia could offer Project 949 (Nato codename Oscar-II) nuclear submarines, naval Tu-22M3 bombers and even, although could sound incredible, the nuclear propelled missile cruisers of Project 1144 (Orlan class)," Pukhov said.


http://news.in.msn.com/international/ar ... id=4440540

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby chackojoseph » 06 Jan 2011 08:52

ASPuar wrote:ChackoJosephji, you are correct, unlike you, I am not so close to the DRDO lobby, and so do not have access to behind the scenes photo ops organised by them. No disrespect to you, but please also remember that these photo ops can be staged, and the extf this AIP system. When it comes, please send me the name of your preferred (sweet) poison, and I will be pleased to dispatch same to you through the post office! :wink:

@Singha: I think your Chankian idea makes good sense, birather...


ASPuar,

Thank you for calling me a DRDO lobby (indirectly). If you remember, there were once who were anti-DRDO lobby and there was nothing called DRDO lobby (in the press). I used to be most banned poster on internet those days. I decided to create something where I could post my self and no one can ban me :rotfl: . Then I put my money where my mouth is (as you know DRDO does not pay bribe for lobbying). A lot of times in our lives, we go by our convictions. I too went for it. It was difficult to get info. With some luck and plain luck, I managed to get closer to the projects and look at them. I got further convinced. I backed the projects up. I brought you some real time news on some projects.

I have still not carried a DRDO advt, which others get for their magazine. To sum up, I have never made money, got no wine or women from DRDO.

I have seen, anti-DRDO journos flip as they saw FI getting traction. They understood that correct reporting brings in money too. They had this presumption that only sensationalizing DRDO failures can bring in readership.

Where is the question of lobby? AFIK, DRDO PR wing was formed 2 years back. I was pro DRDO projects right from 1998.

I have been very clear to DRDO that I am not going to bat for them. I told them I going to write what I think is right and they need to show me that it is right. It was a fair deal.

I am sure, I can distinguish between a photo op and a non photo op., because, when I start quizzing them, they have to think hard and reply. I did my homework before visit to to the facility and projects.

There are projects that I have seen/know and cannot talk about. For example, I knew of Sagarika and knew that Agni is never going to be a SLBM. I did not report. There are so many things I don't report.

At times, I have been told that I don't report negative about DRDO. I tell them that I report on projects and do not concentrate on DRD"organization." Other than press releases from DRDO, where they talk about themselves, I have not backed them up if they are wrong.

Continuing with my tradition of (happily) loosing money reporting for DRDO projects, I would happily send you the sweets when AIP fructifies. I am sure I will send you the sweets as I have seen it myself.

On the civilian malaise issue, when everybody suffers it, let them suffer it. I have been in armed services half my life and I am sure what malaise they suffer. Fortunately it makes me understand perfectly what you are trying to say. I also welcome extreme position you have taken, there should be debate. Debate is a must. I am not going to tell you to think my way. I actually like to read you up to understand other view. I have taken a different method of looking at my nations projects. Hopefully, you are going to look at my PoV with the same angle I look at yours.

I would also like to let our Tom and Jerry relation continue. :rotfl:

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby SriSri » 06 Jan 2011 09:20


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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby chackojoseph » 06 Jan 2011 10:01

Rahul M wrote:
Indian Navy to get 4 more Kolkata Class destroyers
chacko, are you sure it will be called the kolkata class ? 15B is quite different from 15A after all.


So far its K class. haven't heard a new name for that. If you read what I wrote, the deck is different. Weapons will be of what it will be available at that time. Rest characteristics remain same.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Singha » 06 Jan 2011 10:31

well well finally we are getting some momentum in the orders pipeline....just look at the number of principal ships JMSDF has built in the last 10-15 yrs...they build ships like people build cars.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby ASPuar » 06 Jan 2011 10:47

chackojoseph wrote:
ASPuar wrote:ChackoJosephji, you are correct, unlike you, I am not so close to the DRDO lobby, and so do not have access to behind the scenes photo ops organised by them. No disrespect to you, but please also remember that these photo ops can be staged, and the extf this AIP system. When it comes, please send me the name of your preferred (sweet) poison, and I will be pleased to dispatch same to you through the post office! :wink:

@Singha: I think your Chankian idea makes good sense, birather...


ASPuar,

Thank you for calling me a DRDO lobby (indirectly). If you remember, there were once who were anti-DRDO lobby and there was nothing called DRDO lobby (in the press). I used to be most banned poster on internet those days. I decided to create something where I could post my self and no one can ban me :rotfl: . Then I put my money where my mouth is (as you know DRDO does not pay bribe for lobbying). A lot of times in our lives, we go by our convictions. I too went for it. It was difficult to get info. With some luck and plain luck, I managed to get closer to the projects and look at them. I got further convinced. I backed the projects up. I brought you some real time news on some projects.

I have still not carried a DRDO advt, which others get for their magazine. To sum up, I have never made money, got no wine or women from DRDO.

I have seen, anti-DRDO journos flip as they saw FI getting traction. They understood that correct reporting brings in money too. They had this presumption that only sensationalizing DRDO failures can bring in readership.

Where is the question of lobby? AFIK, DRDO PR wing was formed 2 years back. I was pro DRDO projects right from 1998.

I have been very clear to DRDO that I am not going to bat for them. I told them I going to write what I think is right and they need to show me that it is right. It was a fair deal.

I am sure, I can distinguish between a photo op and a non photo op., because, when I start quizzing them, they have to think hard and reply. I did my homework before visit to to the facility and projects.

There are projects that I have seen/know and cannot talk about. For example, I knew of Sagarika and knew that Agni is never going to be a SLBM. I did not report. There are so many things I don't report.

At times, I have been told that I don't report negative about DRDO. I tell them that I report on projects and do not concentrate on DRD"organization." Other than press releases from DRDO, where they talk about themselves, I have not backed them up if they are wrong.

Continuing with my tradition of (happily) loosing money reporting for DRDO projects, I would happily send you the sweets when AIP fructifies. I am sure I will send you the sweets as I have seen it myself.

On the civilian malaise issue, when everybody suffers it, let them suffer it. I have been in armed services half my life and I am sure what malaise they suffer. Fortunately it makes me understand perfectly what you are trying to say. I also welcome extreme position you have taken, there should be debate. Debate is a must. I am not going to tell you to think my way. I actually like to read you up to understand other view. I have taken a different method of looking at my nations projects. Hopefully, you are going to look at my PoV with the same angle I look at yours.

I would also like to let our Tom and Jerry relation continue. :rotfl:


No no, ChackoJosephji, I have not called you a DRDO lobby, merely mentioned that you are close to it due to your professional duties, unlike my poor self, and therefore seemingly have access to more things than I do.

I am glad to hear that you have served in the armed services, and I salute you for it. But "armed" services, as opposed to "defence services" is a very broad term, and encompasses many things, not just the army, navy and air force, but also the sundry police organisations run by the government. With respect, knowledge of the one, doesnt necessarily imply expertise in naval propulsion systems, which is where my concern stemmed from. But we will leave that, since you are very positive in your certainty that what you have seen was the real banana.

As far as the civilian malaise is concerned, just because others suffer it does not mean it is acceptable. It is not. DRDO works in a strategic sector, and if the malaise is not corrected, it is we, as a nation, who will suffer. Otherwise, next, we will say disappearance of files on thousands of crores projects from MoD is also ok, or of strategic importance is ok, because these things happen everyday. Just as we hold the armed forces to a higher standard of accountability, and do not tolerate malfeasance on their part, so must we hold all their ancillary departments in the ministry of defence to the same standard.

I consider that the view that I have taken is not extreme at all. Is it extremist to hope that the money invested by the nation (one fifth of the govt's total R&D budget across all ministrys every year) in DRDO is repaid by timely and fruitful research, delivered in a manner which is usable by the armed forces, and is not conducted for its own sake? If this is extreme, god knows what moderate will be? I regard all news which is overly negative on a topic, or overly positive on a topic as being dubious, especially given the latest revelations on the functioning of the Indian media, a la RadiaGate. So I would not make any assumption one way or another. I know that most on here support indigenous development of arms. So would I. So, I would offer that my point of view is a necessary view. A crucial view. And I will continue to point it out, when necessary.

On the AIP project, I am reassured by your assertions in its favour. Also by the fact that the navy seems to be keen on it. And then, after all, you have promised me sweets when it comes out :rotfl:

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby ASPuar » 06 Jan 2011 10:51

Meanwhile...

http://www.zeenews.com/news678714.html

Navy to commission UAV squadron at Porbandar

New Delhi: Aiming at enhancing coastal surveillance capabilities, the Navy is going to commission a squadron of Unmanned Aerial Vehicles (UAVs) at Porbandar in Gujarat on January 17.

The squadron will comprise Israeli-made Searcher and Heron UAVs and would help in enhancing our surveillance capabilities off the coast of Gujarat, Navy officials said here.


The Indian Navy had commissioned its first UAV reconnaissance squadron at its base in Kochi in January, 2006 and is one of the few maritime forces to be using such equipment.

The Navy is also planning to acquire high-altitude long endurance (HALE) UAVs.


In an RFI (Request For Information) issued recently, the Navy has specified that it wants a platform with at least 25 hours mission endurance, an all up weight of no more than 15 tons, service ceiling of 40,000 feet and cruise speed of 100 knots.

The Navy presently uses a small mix of Israeli Heron and Searcher Mk2 UAVs, and is making efforts to acquire shipborne unmanned rotorcraft.

Post 26/11, India has taken several measures to strengthen coastal security after terrorists sailed close to the Gujarat coast in a dhow and reached Mumbai to launch multiple attacks on various targets.

To plug gaps in the radar coverage of its over 7,500 km coastline, the Government has also decided to deploy coastal surveillance radars atop 90 light houses along both the eastern and western sea boards.

Under the plan, the light houses would also be fitted with cameras capable of operating during both day and night to keep an eye on the movement of vessels in coastal areas.

PTI


Seems to be a measure to prevent recurrence of 26/11 type attacks.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby ASPuar » 06 Jan 2011 10:54

An article on this was posted earlier by CJ, from Frontier Mag. This one is from Bus. Std. This is a welcome move. Should go a long way towards graduating more and better naval architects, engineers, and technologists. Note that DND controller Adm Badhwar wants that more blue collar staff is also graduated. Perhaps a diploma wing or ITI could also be established...

http://www.business-standard.com/india/ ... ay/420642/


Antony to inaugurate warship design hub today

Ajai Shukla / New Delhi January 04, 2011, 1:06 IST


For years India’s warship building community has urged the Ministry of Defence (MoD) to create the infrastructure needed for making India a major global hub for building warships. Tomorrow, as a first step towards this, Defence Minister A K Antony will lay the foundation stone of the National Institute for Research and Development in Defence Shipbuilding (NIRDESH) at Chaliyam, in Kozhikode district of Kerala.

With the Indian Navy expanding rapidly, the workload on the Directorate of Naval Design (DND) has overwhelmed its tiny establishment. With the DND already busy with five major programmes for building surface warships — for the Indigenous Aircraft Carrier; Project 15A and 15B destroyers; Project 17A frigates; and Project 28 anti-submarine corvettes — design capacity has become a serious roadblock to further projects.

The shortage of design and construction capacity in defence shipyards had forced the Indian Navy to order warships abroad at inflated prices. Currently, three frigates are being built in Russia, while an Italian shipyard is delivering three logistic support vessels to India.

This has occurred despite the demonstrated ability of Indian defence shipyards to build quality warships competently and cheaply. Mazagon Dock Limited (MDL), Mumbai, is completing the INS Kolkata, a 6,800-tonne guided missile destroyer, for a cost of Rs 3,800 crore ($850 million). In contrast, Spanish shipyard, Navantia, is selling comparable destroyers to the Australian Navy — the 6250-tonne Hobart class, which Navantia calls the F-100 frigate — for Rs 11,850 crore ($2.65 billion) each, more than thrice the cost of INS Kolkata.

The need for NIRDESH became even more urgent as warship building capacity has grown, sharply outstripping design capacity. In 2010, the three defence shipyards — MDL, Mumbai; Garden Reach Shipbuilders and Engineers, Kolkata (GRSE); and Goa Shipyard Ltd (GSL) — have been supplemented by a fourth, Hindustan Shipyard Ltd, Visakhapatnam (HSL), which the MoD bought from the Ministry of Shipping. There is also Cochin Shipyard Ltd (CSL), a central PSU, which is building the Indigenous Aircraft Carrier for the MoD. Now a new trio of state-of-the-art private sector shipyards — L&T, Pipavav, and ABG Shipyard — is also demanding orders for building warships.

“I am extremely happy with the setting up of NIRDESH,” says Nikhil Gandhi, chairman of Pipavav Shipyard near Bhavnagar, Gujarat. “This will provide us design capability at affordable prices, rather than forcing us to set up expensive facilities, or to look abroad for warship designs. Pipavav welcomes and will support NIRDESH.”

NIRDESH, an autonomous body under the Registration of Societies Act, 1860, will function under the MoD’s Department of Defence Production. Set up with a corpus of about Rs 40 crore, NIRDESH was funded by the MoD and the four defence shipyards. Once operative, it is expected to be self-sustaining, charging both public and private sector shipyards for design and consultancy work that it provides to them.

According to the head of one of the defence shipyards, NIRDESH would function as a “national design centre”, bringing together designers from within the country and abroad, in order to take on the challenging tasks of integrating weapons systems from various global suppliers, and propulsion systems. It will also work in the futuristic area of developing advanced hull forms. It is understood that NIRDESH will have the financial autonomy to pay top dollar to its personnel, retaining them and providing continuity in design and support. In contrast, the naval designers in the DND can be paid only at mandated government rates. Therefore, they tend to move on to more lucrative jobs.

Currently, only three establishments — IIT Kharagpur, IIT Madras and the Cochin University of Science and Technology (CUSAT) — run courses in naval architecture, graduating about 60 architects each year. The actual requirement is estimated at about 200 architects per year.

While NIRDESH will enhance the number of white-collar naval designers and architects, industry insiders say that the real problem is the acute shortage of skilled blue-collar workers who actually build warships.

Rear Admiral M K Badhwar, who recently retired as the Indian Navy’s chief warship designer, points out, “India’s warship building industry desperately needs a full-scale training establishment that can churn out not just white collar warship designers, but also sufficient numbers of blue collar tradesmen — welders, platers, electricians, pipe-fitters, crane operators, etc… who are in short supply today.”


In the absence of an MoD initiative to train tradesmen, shipyards are tackling that problem at a local level. The newest defence shipyard, Pipavav, has adopted two local Industrial Training Institutes, where the shipyard guarantees employment for tradespersons of certain categories.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby chackojoseph » 06 Jan 2011 11:13

ASPuar,

just 1 correction, I was not in forces. My father was. due to some duties, we saw life in all the three services and some others too related to def.

You can have the sweets. :)

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby ASPuar » 06 Jan 2011 11:26

Marten wrote:
Sir, with due respect, I put to you the same argument. Your offer to send the "sweet poison" was an underhanded attempt to smear the good chap here. Not all journalists are incompetent or corrupt, right?


The Matter is closed. If Mr Joseph suggests that he is convinced enough that the system works, and the navy itself is supporting the development, who am I to complain?

I would not engage CJji in debate if I did not respect his capabilities as a journo, and an observer of defence issues.
Last edited by ASPuar on 06 Jan 2011 11:37, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby ASPuar » 06 Jan 2011 11:34

Dont think I saw this reported previously...

http://www.sify.com/news/two-coast-guar ... dijff.html


Two Coast Guard stations established in Arabian Sea to safeguard India's interest

2010-12-24 19:30:00

Defence Minister AK Antony on Friday inaugurated two Coast Guard establishments in Lakshadweep in order to strengthen the coastal security in the aftermath of the Mumbai terror attacks and against the backdrop of rising incidents of piracy near the 7,500 km-long Indian coastline in the past few weeks.

The last outpost of the country in the Arabian Sea, Minicoy, got its coastal security surveillance apparatus today. The Defence Minister also concurrently established a new Coast Guard District Headquarters for Lakshadweep at Kavaratti.

The set up at Kavaratti has been named District headquarters No 12 and it will have operational control over a number of ships and aircraft such as Hovercrafts, Fast Patrol Vessels, Interceptor Boats, Helicopter and Fixed Wing Aircraft on the commissioning of planned stations.

Addressing the personnel and the islanders at Minicoy, Antony said: "We can neglect the seas only at our peril, as the 2008 terror attacks on Mumbai showed."

Urging the maritime forces to remain ever vigilant and not to lower their guard at any point of time, he said nations are turning to the seas and oceans for sustenance as natural resources on the land are getting depleted fast.

The two new establishments in the strategically located islands will provide the much needed teeth to Coast Guard operations and enhance safety and security of Lakshadweep Islands. They would also facilitate greater synergy between Coast Guard, administration of Lakshadweep and other agencies.

The Indian Coast Guard also plans to set up another Coast Guard Station at Androth next year and an air enclave at Minicoy in 2012. Six radar stations of the Coastal Surveillance Network (CSN) are also being established in the Lakshadweep and Minicoy islands.

Antony said the commissioning of the much needed Coast Guard Station at Minicoy has a special relevance due to its proximity to two of the world's busiest shipping lanes. Since the nearest Coast Guard ships and aircraft were based at Kochi, a need for Coast Guard station with a forward airbase at this location was always felt.

He added that "our aim is to create a real-time coastal surveillance system that can be controlled even from remote locations."

The Lakshadweep group of islands is also vulnerable to marine pollution as two of the world's busiest Sea lanes of Communication (SLOC) are abounding it. The Eight Degree Channel, which separates the Minicoy island from the Maldives, witnesses maritime traffic of as many as 30-40 ships a day.

On December 7, the Indian Navy had spotted a pirate mother ship in the waters off Lakshadweep Islands and managed to rescue a Thai national, who was thrown into the sea.

This was the second incident of piracy in the region this month. Earlier, on December 3, the Indian Navy's guided missile destroyer INS Rajput had apprehended a dhow (a sailing vessel) with 19 foreigners on board in Indian waters off Lakshadweep Islands. The dhow was located in India's Exclusive Economic Zone.

The Indian Navy has deployed ships and maritime patrol aircraft to undertake a comprehensive search in the Eastern part of the Arabian Sea, to locate and disable probable pirate vessels.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby vasu_ray » 06 Jan 2011 11:54

Is there an update on the immediate plans for the Kaveri Marine Gas Turbine?

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby chackojoseph » 06 Jan 2011 12:53

ASPuar wrote:Dont think I saw this reported previously...

http://www.sify.com/news/two-coast-guar ... dijff.html


[b]Tw]


Pls check paramilitary thread and the BR news section.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Philip » 06 Jan 2011 13:06

Good news all round.9 (or 10?) Talwars,10 Shivaliks,10 Kolkattas...will make up a formidable surface fleet especially when armed with Brahmos 1/2 and Nirbhay,defended by Barak SAMs as well.The added snippets about further cooperation/JVs with Russia on ballistic/cruise missiles,following in the success of Brahmos augurs well for the future and the IN in particluar.I remember about 4 ago,chatting with a senior scribe,both of us lamenting that the potential of B'mos for the other two services had yet to take root in the minds of the security planners/decision-makers.Fortunately,the missile has proven itself,the "kight" was seen and the avalanche of orders from ther services is a huge achievement.Once the 1000km Nirbhay also reaches fruition,the LR tactical strike capability of the forces will have reached dramatic proportions within the IOR and if "transplanted" beyond the IOR,will enable us along with futurer dedicayed maritime sats,to keep a 24/7 check upon any sinister designs from the dragon.

PS:For aeons I've been suggesting the setting up of a central design/R&D facility for just engine tech alone for the three services.Time bound programmes will help our indigenous projects be inducted faster.Warships,aircraft,tanks,subs,etc., will all benefit from such a centre.The demand is so huge,for the different types for each service,that to achieve self-sufficiency,this requires a huge consolidated effort.I know of one desi company,which specialises in a particular product,who find that their wares sell very well to a country/co. in Europe (just a postal address/warehouse they found out) which are apparently re-routed to another nation with whom we have very close ties ,and their product might actually be ending up back here, key part of a certain system!


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