Indian Naval Discussion

All threads that are locked or marked for deletion will be moved to this forum. The topics will be cleared from this archive on the 1st and 16th of each month.
Singha
BRF Oldie
Posts: 66601
Joined: 13 Aug 2004 19:42
Location: the grasshopper lies heavy

Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Singha » 08 Jan 2011 03:05

they are not long enough or wide enough to permit catapult recovery imo...

shiv
BRF Oldie
Posts: 34982
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: Pindliyon ka Gooda

Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby shiv » 08 Jan 2011 06:20

Well we Indians are a reactive people no? We accuse our goverment of being reactive but what I am seeing on here is a "people's endorsement" for being reactive. A Chinese businessman wants to buy a defunct 38 year old aircraft carrier and the idea is expressed that we should buy that instead.

Heck India is actually building 2 aircraft carriers right now and the Gorshkov will be here soon. Why on earth should we but a used British A/C. Let an Indian businessman buy it if he wants - but why push another used, to be refurbished carrier down the throat of the only branch of the Indian armed forces that has tended to root for locally produced stuff? :shock: :shock:

Santosh
BRFite
Posts: 702
Joined: 13 Apr 2005 01:55

Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Santosh » 08 Jan 2011 07:11

For £11m we should buy it an sink it. Just like we could have bought and sunk the Varyag for $25m

Singha
BRF Oldie
Posts: 66601
Joined: 13 Aug 2004 19:42
Location: the grasshopper lies heavy

Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Singha » 08 Jan 2011 07:44

relax. the chinese have nothing to gain from 'studying' this design or making it operational.

shiv
BRF Oldie
Posts: 34982
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: Pindliyon ka Gooda

Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby shiv » 08 Jan 2011 07:50

Santosh wrote:For £11m we should buy it an sink it. Just like we could have bought and sunk the Varyag for $25m

:rotfl:

ASPuar
BRFite
Posts: 1538
Joined: 07 Feb 2001 12:31
Location: Republic of India

Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby ASPuar » 08 Jan 2011 07:58

At this rate we would be reduced to buying and sinking every ship that every came out of Western Naval service.. and be left with nary any money to build any of our own! Plus, we would have no space on the ocean floor left :)

Not to mention, the inevitable CAG report: Navy bought ship, just to sink it.
Last edited by ASPuar on 08 Jan 2011 08:11, edited 1 time in total.

ASPuar
BRFite
Posts: 1538
Joined: 07 Feb 2001 12:31
Location: Republic of India

Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby ASPuar » 08 Jan 2011 08:04

Rahul M wrote:the overall work takes place under the supervision some very competent people from the navy but that in no way negates others' contribution.


:roll:

Whoever said it did negate the contributions of others? But to try and raise that contribution to a level beyond that which it merits, is wrong, and to try to relegate the role of the "very competent people" from the Navy to the background is wrong also. Thanks for going through this discussion. Its been interesting.

ASPuar
BRFite
Posts: 1538
Joined: 07 Feb 2001 12:31
Location: Republic of India

Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby ASPuar » 08 Jan 2011 08:09

chackojoseph wrote:ASPuar,
If you think, you can make it to Mumbai, I will ask permission from DRDO for a joint visit to NMRL to make you understand. This offer is only for you.



Now that, CJ, is an offer. Alas, work schedules will probably not permit me to accept anytime soon. But its still very good of you. Though I probably cant take you up on it, It is something that I do appreciate very much indeed, as it goes beyond the narrow confines of sophistry. Genuinely, thank you.

Pratyush
BRF Oldie
Posts: 8187
Joined: 05 Mar 2010 15:13

Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Pratyush » 08 Jan 2011 08:12

shiv wrote:
Santosh wrote:For £11m we should buy it an sink it. Just like we could have bought and sunk the Varyag for $25m

:rotfl:


The Idea has a lot of merit. A sinkex will teach the navy how a flat top may act when it is brought under attack using modern antiship weapons.

Just like the Khans did with the America and the Orissanski. But unlike the Khans we dont have umpteen carriers waiting to be disposed off.

Karan M
Forum Moderator
Posts: 19146
Joined: 19 Mar 2010 00:58

Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Karan M » 08 Jan 2011 08:49

The Chinese attempt to purchase the Invincible is nothing to be dismissed lightly, and shows exactly how they operate. They took the Varyag, pretty much examined it down to the last nut and bolt, and are now making it operational. They now clearly plan to do the same with the Invincible. The Chinese are past masters at copying methods, design approaches & then reproducing it down to the last screw. In this way, they leapfrog many years of effort & design assistance. Over time, folks may argue that it reduces the scope of their own innovation as they focus on taking other peoples designs and just improving on those, but their approach also allows them to field relative "copies" of western/other design items and then improve them. The Chinese Type-xx tanks are all derived from detailed look at T-72 tanks which were apparently imported from third sources and while even todays Type-9X tanks have significant flaws, these tanks are much more effective than their earlier ones and can take on many of India's frontline tanks (upgraded T-72). The Chinese J-10 fighter is virtually a remastered Israeli Lavi. But as Mao said, who cares about the color of the cat as long as it catches mice.

One other thing is China, thanks to significant western improvement in manufacturing in China, can produce items relatively quickly because it has substantial industry capability. This allows them to mass manufacture systems. Even if their systems are three fourth as effective as those fielded by India (say), their ability to rapidly induct larger numbers of systems makes a difference. I am particularly concerned about artillery, where China has (per IISS) almost 4-7K more artillery pieces, and their latest Smerch MBRLs ripoffs. In any conflict, these will have an impact.

China also outspends India by a significant margin in research and development, and you can find many chinese companies, literally acting as Govt subsidiaries funded heavily in terms of capex & opex. In India, foolish finger pointing is done each time when the R&D side asks for more money and dubious claims are then trotted out to deny money which is then spent on vote gathering methods. Take a look at the LCA thread where a note is made that a South Block representative refused to sanction FBW development for the LCA, which ended up costing India rupees 750 Crores in delays when LCA later faced sanctions. Such thinking is then repeated elsewhere with claims about whether R&D provides value, whether India is getting bankrupted! Currently Indian industry spends peanuts on R&D for the most part bar a handful of sector specific firms, and the public sector is sought hobbled by such silly arguments, bereft of even basic understanding of technology and how it is built up (consistent investment in manpower & infrastructure, neither of which come cheap and require decades of persistence).

http://tarmak007.blogspot.com/2011/01/f ... l-one.html

Look at the above link - 30 people for such a vital capability and before the 6th pay commission, apparently paid peanuts. The US, the Russians would have put a team together of four to five times that size, and not even bothered about pay. Indian Govt. defines penny wise and pound foolish.

The Chinese, have had no qualms in spending billions in propping up everything from foundry capabilities for firms which would otherwise make limited economic sense, to firms which make items clearly intended for defence use, and then which start hawking these wares to third countries, including those very countries they copied/took some of this technology from! I was pointed to the book "Poorly made in China" by a member of this very forum, and I would encourage everyone to read it, to understand PRC business practices in some (if not all) parts of the private sector! And this, in an area where the PRC Govt is not propping up firms.

China also invests heavily in "showpiece projects" to further impress foreign manufacturers to choose them and transfer technology and capabilities, and this approach has worked very well for them. Districts compete in offering subsidies and limited redtape to get firms in, once in, its a lock-in, even as the Chinese side renegotiates over time.

Simply put, while India procrastinates & has various stakeholders trying to score points on each other about how they are better, the Chinese, end up, via any means necessary pursuing their objectives, which is to challenge the US & be perceived as a superpower and the dominant force in Asia. Indians can justifiably argue that these priorities are misplaced, economically wasteful (China investing in multiple aircraft agencies/plants, several with dubious records of under-performance) and militarist, but the point is all these points count for naught, if & when there is a conflict. The salve we apply to our egos about how India sought a truly peaceful rise, does not count for much if the Chinese, via copying, espionage and own effort, field large numbers of weapons which are reasonably effective.

Its rather silly that claims continue to be made on whether the designer & limited Project Manager of a system is greater than the contributor of the actual systems that go into the weapons platform and those who do the detail work, fitting out, just to score academic points on who is superior to who.

The Chinese on the other hand couldn't care less. Their services accept systems which if not world class or world leading, get the job done & they are more interested in creating large ecosystems of vertically integrated firms (AVIC et al), finding loopholes around international laws (import of Sagem thermal imagers for fitment into their systems despite Euro ban on outright arms sales), and then creating large manufacturing base in the private sector (via Govt financing/getting foreign support) for dual use items.

No serious Chinese observer is going to sit around pointing fingers around whether CAC is better than the PLAAF or the PLANAF did all the work for the Type 52 destroyer & similiar bunkum, just to score points. Their decision makers will support an integrated plan, do no finger pointing about who is superior and why, and they'll just quickly produce a few of each type, move onto the next type, keeping up a united front, and keeping observers guessing about their methods & actions.

Meanwhile, they will continue to aggressively chase after technology and methods wherever and however, such as the action on the Invincible, least bothered about whether the world finds it brazen or not. They may be opponents for the Indian strategic community, but we can indeed learn from them on what "gung ho" means, at least as used by Evans Carlson.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gung-ho
Last edited by Karan M on 08 Jan 2011 09:37, edited 4 times in total.

Indranil
Forum Moderator
Posts: 8061
Joined: 02 Apr 2010 01:21

Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Indranil » 08 Jan 2011 09:17

With you on that one ... I think the reason to buy this new Chinese restaurant is to take English classes in them. They already had Russian classes on the Varyag. These guys are sly, and compliments to them on that.

I was wondering if Ambani could park this is Mumbai, I am sure it will become a good place to have bhelpuri and vada-pao. Same goes for Mallya. Mangalore is quite an happening place at night. A beer on this won't look bad either. He can write Kingfisher by its side in the biggest possible fonts.

chackojoseph
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4297
Joined: 01 Mar 2010 22:42
Location: From Frontier India
Contact:

Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby chackojoseph » 08 Jan 2011 11:44

ASPuar wrote:
chackojoseph wrote:ASPuar,
If you think, you can make it to Mumbai, I will ask permission from DRDO for a joint visit to NMRL to make you understand. This offer is only for you.



Now that, CJ, is an offer. Alas, work schedules will probably not permit me to accept anytime soon. But its still very good of you. Though I probably cant take you up on it, It is something that I do appreciate very much indeed, as it goes beyond the narrow confines of sophistry. Genuinely, thank you.


Welcome!

Santosh wrote:For £11m we should buy it an sink it. Just like we could have bought and sunk the Varyag for $25m


If we send it to Alang, we will get scrap value and may be some replaceable parts that can be sold in civil international market.

We can use it as a training ship, test platform etc. When required, it can carry a complement of marines and some attack Helios to low intensity areas.

aniket
BRFite
Posts: 290
Joined: 14 Dec 2010 17:34
Location: On the top of the world

Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby aniket » 08 Jan 2011 13:17

We can use it as a training ship, test platform etc. When required, it can carry a complement of marines and some attack Helios to low intensity areas.

the ship can be used as such but after reading abt the sorry condition of the ship even if we buy it at a throwaway price im sure the Indian navy would not like to operate a wrecked,dead and rotting ship it is in short then just a huge piece of steel in any role except maybe for target practice and im sure they could buy ships like dis in india at a much lower price . Instead of wasting money on this we should just wait for the indigenous lpd to come in service or if in a hurry just aquire on of dese
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bay_class_landing_ship_dock_%28auxiliary%29
dey are newer and one of dese is being retired early due to defence cuts.

what is 'dey' or 'dese' ? do not use sms speak.
Rahul.
Last edited by Rahul M on 08 Jan 2011 13:50, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: added comment.

Juggi G
BRFite
Posts: 1070
Joined: 11 Mar 2007 19:16
Location: Martyr Bhagat Singh Nagar District, Doaba, Punjab, Bharat. De Ghuma ke :)

Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Juggi G » 08 Jan 2011 13:40

DCNS All Out to Woo Indian Navy
..:: India Strategic ::..
Image
New Delhi. India should be able to produce more than one sophisticated submarine every year, thanks to the transfer of high technology from the France-based leader in naval defence systems, DCNS.


According to Patrick Boissier, Chairman and CEO of DCNS, which is executing India’s biggest submarine building programme for six diesel-electric Scorpene submarines, said that India’s Mazagon Docks Ltd (MDL) had already “absorbed the demanding technologies associated with hull fabrication” and that hulls for the first two submarines had been completed.

The delivery of the advanced combat systems for the first submarine would also be complete soon.

Boissier, who was in New Delhi as part of French Pressident Nicolas Sarkozy’s delegation, told newsmen that “construction of hulls for the third and fourth submarines was in progress while the frame to receive the hull of the fifth submarine is under manufacture.”

Boissier observed that Asia would see a staggering growth in the number of submarines in the next 10 years, and various countries in the region could acquire some 100 submarines. There were naval defence opportunities both in South-east Asia and the Arab Gulf region.

DCNS was particularly keen to cooperate with Indian companies, both public and private sector towards building indigenous capabilities, and also to invest in the defence sector in India for building ships and submarines.

He said that DCNS was looking up to collaborating with India on the next line of six more submarines, as also to supply components for nuclear power plants. France has proposed that its Areva should build several 1650 MW units. Areva has developed technology for the biggest and the most advanced nuclear power plants in the world.

Notably, the Scorpene project has been delayed but Boissier said that at present, DCNS was “conducting genuine transfers of technologies and of know-how at an unprecedented level.”

“We are providing our Indian partners with technical assistance to manufacture equipments through indigenisation programmes.”

It may be recalled that India had bought four HDW submarines from Germany in the 1980s, but due to controversies and allegations, whatever transfer of technology was done was lost, and all those who trained on the contemporary systems of the 1980s, have retired or left MDL.

According to MDL Chairman and Managing Director Vice Admiral H S Mahi, the first Scorpene should be launched by 2014, and the process should be smooth in the new timeframe.

He also says that MDL could now make submarine pressure hulls without any foreign collaboration.

Boissier visited MDL and met with Mahi to review the progress of the Scorpene construction.
It may be noted that MDL is sourcing some important critical sub-systems from other companies. Nonetheless, DCNS has offered to modify the Scorpene design and supply Air Independent Propulsion (AIP) systems for the last of the two submarines.

The Indian Navy is terribly short of submarine capability, loaded as it has been with the old Soviet vintage Foxtrot and Kilo class, and four German HDWs. A tender for six more P 75-I more advanced submarines, with AIP capability for longer underwater stay, is likely to be floated in 2011 for simultaneous construction at two or three shipyards to make up for the delay in acquisition.

The underlying theme though is Transfer of Technology and building indigenous capabilities. The value of this project could be twice that of the current Scorpene project, and match or exceed the estimated $ 10 billion-plus cost of 126 Medium Multi Role Aircraft (M-MRCAs) being acquired by the Indian Air Force (IAF).

Boissier said that it should be logical for DCNS to bag this project, as an extension of the ToT that it would have transferred to the Indian shipyard.

“We understand that India wants to build indigenous capabilities, and we are ready to transfer the best of the technologies.”

As for the AIP, the tender for the Scorpenes did not have this requirement, but DCNS had now offered to fit this system on the last of the two submarines under the ongoing project.

"We have made an informal proposal to the Navy for AIP technology in the last two of the Scorpenes that will be built at MDL. Now it is up to the navy to take a call on this proposal. We have held informal discussions in this regard."

AIP allows a submarine to operate without the need to surface or use a snorkel to access atmospheric oxygen and it usually excludes the use of nuclear power, but is about augmenting or replacing diesel-electric propulsion system of non-nuclear vessels. US, Russia, France, Germany, Spain and Sweden are some of the countries which have the AIP technology on their submarines.

Boissier concluded: Through local partnership arrangements, such as the one we have with MDL, we can offer the Indian Navy the ability to build vessels in India, based on proven designs and incorporating the full range of DCNS technologies. Local partnerships will also facilitate in-service maintenance and through-life support. These are win-win partnerships for greater heights, where all parties enhance their capabilities."

neerajb
BRFite
Posts: 825
Joined: 24 Jun 2008 14:18
Location: Delhi, India.

Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby neerajb » 09 Jan 2011 14:54

Pipavav newsletter.

Image
Image

Main points:

1) Warship license empowers Pipavav to construct 5 warships per year which means it can produce 20 warships simultaneously.
2) Pipavav is bidding for construction of submarines, destroyers :?: , frigates, LPD, corvettes :?: and aircraft carriers :?: :eek:.
3) Pipavav capable of undertaking construction of a new aircraft carrier and dry docking of INS Vikramaditya for repair and maintenance simultaneously.
4) The MOU with Rosoboronexport is for the probable construction of additional four stealth frigates (Talwar class). Three have been delievered and three are under construction at Russian yard.

Cheers....

Singha
BRF Oldie
Posts: 66601
Joined: 13 Aug 2004 19:42
Location: the grasshopper lies heavy

Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Singha » 09 Jan 2011 15:14

hopefully the periodic repair and upgrade of Talwar class ships can be done in Pipavav too...instead of sailing to Russia. a lot of skills and tools are picked up that way too.

Christopher Sidor
BRFite
Posts: 1435
Joined: 13 Jul 2010 11:02

Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Christopher Sidor » 09 Jan 2011 17:17

The french offer on Scorpene submarines is tempting, but we should not forget that there are better fish in the sea. Namely I am referring to the Swedish capabilities. If we link MRCA tender with the new submarine tender, we might be able to bring down the price of both, the fighters in question and the submarine too. With Sweden we might even have a pact, which prevents the sale of these weapons and platforms to pakistan and/or china. Something similar will not be possible with the French offer.

ASPuar
BRFite
Posts: 1538
Joined: 07 Feb 2001 12:31
Location: Republic of India

Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby ASPuar » 10 Jan 2011 09:35

WRT the case pertaining to INS Khukri, the MoD/Navy's stand that they cannot divulge details regarding the incident is unfortunate, and will prove to be counterproductive, especially since there are LOTS of very valid reasons why the second ship could not immediately come to the aid of survivors in the midst of an action.

The armed forces are under the purview of the Right To Information Act, even though the CPMF's are not. They need to learn how to deal with these sorts of requests.

shiv
BRF Oldie
Posts: 34982
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: Pindliyon ka Gooda

Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby shiv » 10 Jan 2011 09:41

Christopher Sidor wrote:The french offer on Scorpene submarines is tempting, but we should not forget that there are better fish in the sea. Namely I am referring to the Swedish capabilities. If we link MRCA tender with the new submarine tender, we might be able to bring down the price of both, the fighters in question and the submarine too. With Sweden we might even have a pact, which prevents the sale of these weapons and platforms to pakistan and/or china. Something similar will not be possible with the French offer.



Much as I would like to see Sweden pressured on the Pakistan issue - I believe that MRCA is not about price but about technology and offsets. Tying down the navy because of an air force requirement or vice versa is not a good idea in any case.

Santosh
BRFite
Posts: 702
Joined: 13 Apr 2005 01:55

Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Santosh » 10 Jan 2011 10:05

ASPuar wrote:At this rate we would be reduced to buying and sinking every ship that every came out of Western Naval service.. and be left with nary any money to build any of our own! Plus, we would have no space on the ocean floor left :)

Not to mention, the inevitable CAG report: Navy bought ship, just to sink it.

:rotfl:
Relax. I am not saying every ship. Just old aircraft carriers or subs. Stuff that China is lagging behind in. Looking at the Varyag today, would you have the 25mil or would you rather have it on the ocean bed, or in Alang for that matter?

Chacko, the only reason I suggested sinking it is because the Chinese apparently paid upwards of 100mil to tow it to China.

Philip
BRF Oldie
Posts: 20512
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: India

Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Philip » 10 Jan 2011 10:56

Neeraj,tx.Pipapav should be encouraged if it has such capability.Since carriers are already being built at Cochin,it should instead build any class of LHPDs/LPDs apart from frigates and smaller warships.The second line of subs is an intriguing prospect,but MD appears to want to hog the task of building the lot! A big Q,what will it do once the Scorpenes are completed? In any case,it is essential that the secondline is a sub capable of carrying B'Mos and probably the Russian Amur/modfied Amur,whatever,will be the most cost-effective solution.L&T will be busy building the ATV/N-sub hulls,etc., and I'm not sure if the GOI/MOD will want two private yards competing with the PSU yards under IN control/admin.

PS:Intriguing new devlopment ,"invisibility cloak for sonars".
X-posted.Pic in link.
http://www.technewsdaily.com/invisibili ... onar-1945/
Last edited by Philip on 10 Jan 2011 12:21, edited 1 time in total.

SriSri
BRFite
Posts: 545
Joined: 23 Aug 2006 15:25

Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby SriSri » 10 Jan 2011 10:59


Philip
BRF Oldie
Posts: 20512
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: India

Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Philip » 11 Jan 2011 13:12

The new Chinese eatery,the "takeaway" of the Ilustrious indicates as mentioned above,is the single-mindedness of the PRC in acquiring by stealing every possible secret of high-tech/low-tech,whatever from abroad.The ongpoing visit of the next Chinese PM in the UK-where he started off in Scotland ,signing up deals for high-ytech cooperation in renewable energy tech that the UK specialises in,shows that the PRC is off the block early even here!The Illustrious design once acquired by the PRC will allow them to build the same/modiofied versions of light flat-tops to be used for amphib ops,ASW carriers,etc.-that too for a song.See how Russia is negotiating with France to build Mistrals.The PRC have got their light carrier design for free here!

I only hope that the IN/MOD make a bid for the Ark Royal,far newere and early retired with a large part of her Harrier fleet to serve on the Viraat/Ark Royal which can be used as a "swing" warship in amphib/ASW/fleet air defence roles.If we can get it on the cheap,it would be a great acquisition,allowing us to have another platform primarilyfor amphib duties several years in advance of building a new type nd one that should last us for about 15-20 years more.

uddu
BRFite
Posts: 1858
Joined: 15 Aug 2004 17:09

Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby uddu » 11 Jan 2011 18:23

The Chinese and we are totally different in the way we work. The Chinese need something to copy things and use it. We don't need it. The Gorshkov saga is a best example. The Chinese purchase things for disco, take them then plan things, gets the stuff required, put them in place and launch them like they are doing with the Varyag. If we purchase something we just give $$$ and wait the stuff to be delivered and keep on doling out $$$ in terms of cost escalation, maintenance etc. So better not to purchase any second hand stuff. We are not Chinese and we cannot do Chinese stuff. So it's better to do things in our way.Get the Vikrant and the N-Tejas and invest the money in AMCA.

uddu
BRFite
Posts: 1858
Joined: 15 Aug 2004 17:09

Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby uddu » 11 Jan 2011 18:28

If Pipavav can partner with the French and get the Mistral class to be build here in India like the Russians are building it in Russia will be a good thing to do. India is supposed to be looking for four such ships. Pipavav seems capable of doing it with French assistance.

JTull
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2734
Joined: 18 Jul 2001 11:31

Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby JTull » 11 Jan 2011 18:38

At $388mln apiece, Mistral is a very good platform, especially if you compare the prices to the stealth frigates from Russia. Link

Pratyush
BRF Oldie
Posts: 8187
Joined: 05 Mar 2010 15:13

Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Pratyush » 11 Jan 2011 19:19

^^^

You are ignoring the 100% cost escalation when it comes to the Indian defense procurement. :P

On a serious note, IMO, considering that the IAC is a domestic design with foreign consultancy. There is no reason to believe that the IN will go for the off the shelf purchase in that department. They may well take the IAC route. I.e. design it at home with foreign consultancy if required.

johnny_m
BRFite
Posts: 176
Joined: 08 Dec 2008 16:12

Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby johnny_m » 11 Jan 2011 21:51

Philip wrote:I only hope that the IN/MOD make a bid for the Ark Royal,far newere and early retired with a large part of her Harrier fleet to serve on the Viraat/Ark Royal which can be used as a "swing" warship in amphib/ASW/fleet air defence roles.If we can get it on the cheap,it would be a great acquisition,allowing us to have another platform primarilyfor amphib duties several years in advance of building a new type nd one that should last us for about 15-20 years more.


What use are the Harrier GR9s going to be in Air defense role ? Can it operate anything other than the Harrier ? For amphib capabilities its better to get a ship that is dedicated for such tasks. The Viraat is in such a good condition that it can put on some or years if asked, till the Gorshkov and IAC becomes operational.

The Jalaswa have been serving us well, how about going for the current U.S.N LPD the San Antonio class.

Avid
BRFite
Posts: 304
Joined: 21 Sep 2001 11:31
Location: Earth

Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Avid » 12 Jan 2011 00:29

JTull wrote:At $388mln apiece, Mistral is a very good platform, especially if you compare the prices to the stealth frigates from Russia. Link


Unsure how the price comparison is valid.

Mistral is an amphibious assault ship similar in role to INS Jalashwa, but newer and bigger.

I am unsure a price comparison is valid with a stealth frigate.

ASPuar
BRFite
Posts: 1538
Joined: 07 Feb 2001 12:31
Location: Republic of India

Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby ASPuar » 12 Jan 2011 02:17

^^

Apples to oranges. Mistral would be better compared to the America class, or the Wasp class AAS vessels. But to stealth frigates makes no sense.

krisna
BRF Oldie
Posts: 5829
Joined: 22 Dec 2008 06:36

Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby krisna » 12 Jan 2011 02:23

Indian Navy To Raise 2nd UAV Squadron Next Week
The Indian Navy will raise its 2nd UAV squadron INAS 343 Squadron in Porbandar (famous as the birthplace of Mahatma Gandhi) next week. The squadron will operate Searcher Mk-II and Heron UAVs.

A third squadron is expected to come up on the country's eastern seaboard later this year at the INS Parundu air station in Ramanathapuram, Tamil Nadu.

JTull
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2734
Joined: 18 Jul 2001 11:31

Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby JTull » 12 Jan 2011 02:43

Re: Mistral, I'm just saying that it is relatively cheap for a class of ships that we don't make at the moment. We're paying a lot for Trishuls, a type of ship that we can now build ourselves. And we're continuing to order more (did we hear a 3rd set of 3/4?). Jalashwa is an older generation ship while Mistral will be very capable modern design. Perhaps we should stop gratifying the US and look at other sources.

ASPuar
BRFite
Posts: 1538
Joined: 07 Feb 2001 12:31
Location: Republic of India

Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby ASPuar » 12 Jan 2011 03:57

I think that its pretty clear that the design capability already exists indigenously. Talwars are being built simply because of considerations of expedience, abroad. I think if we ordered ships from Korean yards, it might be a good idea, using our own designs. Augmentation of fleet capacity would continue apace from Indian yards (which are currently full), and foreign ones, at a steady rate.

Avid
BRFite
Posts: 304
Joined: 21 Sep 2001 11:31
Location: Earth

Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Avid » 12 Jan 2011 03:57

JTull wrote:Re: Mistral, I'm just saying that it is relatively cheap for a class of ships that we don't make at the moment. We're paying a lot for Trishuls, a type of ship that we can now build ourselves. And we're continuing to order more (did we hear a 3rd set of 3/4?). Jalashwa is an older generation ship while Mistral will be very capable modern design. Perhaps we should stop gratifying the US and look at other sources.


We do indeed make same class of ships, but do we have a production line available to double the building capacity? How long would it take for us to add that production line, then produce the frigates? Also, what about longer-term utilization of this second line?

Given the constraints of needs vs. available capacity for building such ships, I do not see how else we can add the necessary number of stealth frigates within the timeline IN would like.

By the way, I have not heard a 3rd set of order for Talwar class. There was a second order for 3 more of Talwar class that was placed in 2006 which are to be delivered in 2011/12.

There was the news of 3rd set of order for 4 more of Kolkata class (Project 15B), which is exactly what you are recommending.

Re Mistral: Yes, it is a modern technology landing ship with greater capacity than Jalashwa. However, Jalashwa was ~$85-90 million including 6 Sea Kings. It marked a transition for IN from ~5500 ton landing ships with 1 Sea King + 500 troops to a much larger ship with 6 Sea Kings + 1000 troops. Something like Mistral transports 1000 troops + ~16 Sea King class Heli.

Also, there are 6 Mistral on order right now, when will IN get one (if it decides to get one).

Avid
BRFite
Posts: 304
Joined: 21 Sep 2001 11:31
Location: Earth

Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Avid » 12 Jan 2011 04:09

Besides, Project 15B is not in the same class as Talwar. Much as Jalashwa is not in the same class as the GRSE landing ships

Philip
BRF Oldie
Posts: 20512
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: India

Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Philip » 12 Jan 2011 13:14

USMC uses Harriers for the amphib support role,just as the RN used its Harriers even in Afghanistan and Iraq! Thereforemacquiring the Ark Royal and its Harriers wouyld give us an immediate amphib strike capability,with fleet air defence/ASW as secondary role for the aircraft.This will enable u to operate the carrier and aircraft upto and beyond 2020,prhaps until 2025.By then we would have had at least two-three new home built carriers to replace the Viraat.Right now let's remember we have only the Virat with the Gorky/Vik to arrive in two years time.It is only by 2015 that the carrier will be fully operational IAC-1 being built at Cochin will arrive another two years later ,thus by 2020,we would have just two new carriers plus the aging about to be retired Viraat.There is no decision as of now about amphibious acquisitions which will take after a decision is amde 3-4 years before the first ship arrive either built abroad or in India.Cochin will be too busy with carrier building to build amphib warships,MD too busy with DDGs,FFGs and subs.Private yards are the only realistic alternative and their track record is unknown.Therefore,picking up the Ark Royal and its Harriers would be a wise decision to meet in part our amphib op requirements for this decade.With the coming invasion of PLAN subs-about 70-80 expected by the decade's end,ASW ops is going to be a major requirement and dedicated ASW light multi-role carriers will be needed.The Japanese and Koreans have already started operating their so-called amphib op ships like the Dodko,Osumi,etc.

Rahul M
Forum Moderator
Posts: 16940
Joined: 17 Aug 2005 21:09
Location: Skies over BRFATA
Contact:

Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Rahul M » 12 Jan 2011 13:26

>> It is only by 2015 that the carrier will be fully operational IAC-1 being built at Cochin will arrive another two years later

you mean by 2017 ? :D it is slated to arrive by 2013-14. chances are it will arrive before the gorsh ! :lol:

Philip
BRF Oldie
Posts: 20512
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: India

Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Philip » 12 Jan 2011 13:33

What about working up time for carrier and aircraft? It takes at least 1-2 years before a new carrier becomes fully operational.Remember the plague-riden CDG,which and its flight deck extended-too short for operating E-2Cs,screw that fell off,excessive radiation from the reactor,etc.,etc! As I said,we will have just three operational strike carriers by 2020,with IAC-2 replacing the Viraat.If as is rumoured that IAC-2 will be still larger keeping in mind PLAN's 4 X 65,000 carrier ambitions,IAC-2 will arrive a little longer than the time taken to build IAC-1.

Here is a forecast on the sub market in the future,an area where the IN is desperately short in numbers.The decision taken to favour PSUs first in warship/sub building is a retrogade step by the GOI,as competition ensures better cost-effectiveness and quality.

http://www.defpro.com/?SID=c4bbccc0be56 ... c4bac19415

Forecast International’s “The Market for Submarines” analysis projects that 111 submarines worth $106.7 billion will be produced from 2011-2020. The average value of these submarines will be $960 million, an indicator of the growing complexity of the modern submarine and the incr... read more

D Roy
BRFite
Posts: 1176
Joined: 08 Oct 2009 17:28

Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby D Roy » 12 Jan 2011 16:39

The 'third set' for talwars is the ongoing talk of producing four of these at Pipavav in collaboration with the Russians. Each is expected to cost 7-8000 crores. the days of 300-400 million for PSCs is over.

Just go back a few pages and you will find Srai and yours truly detailing what is planned for this decade and the whole Pipavav story.


Consequently, it currently has over 40 warships on order at Indian shipyards, which include the Rs 23,562-crore project for six Scorpene submarines at Mazagon Docks Limited (MDL) in Mumbai and the 40,000-tonne indigenous aircraft carrier being built at the Cochin Shipyard.

Then, of course, there is the ongoing refit of the 44,570-tonne Admiral Gorshkov or INS Vikramditya for $2.33 billion as well as construction of three additional Talwar-class stealth frigates (Teg, Tarkash, Trikhand) for around Rs 6,000 crore in Russia.

The Cabinet Committee on Security last month also cleared the Rs 35,000-crore construction of four guided missile stealth destroyers at MDL after the three Kolkata class 6,700-tonne destroyers already being constructed there are finally delivered in 2012-2014. The government has also cleared the Rs 45,000-crore construction of seven more stealth frigates at MDL and GRSE (Kolkata).

The biggest programme, of course, will be the over Rs 50,000-crore `Project-75-India' to acquire six new generation stealth submarines, equipped with tube-launched missiles and air-independent propulsion, but it is still two years away from being finalised.

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/indi ... z1AovanQCm



Return to “Trash Can Archive”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 20 guests