Indian Naval Discussion

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Pratyush » 12 Jan 2011 17:55

D Roy wrote:The 'third set' for talwars is the ongoing talk of producing four of these at Pipavav in collaboration with the Russians. Each is expected to cost 7-8000 crores. the days of 300-400 million for PSCs is over.

Just go back a few pages and you will find Srai and yours truly detailing what is planned for this decade and the whole Pipavav story.



The 7-8000 Crs ships could be accepted for the Shiviliks as they are larger boats. But the 4 Talwars going by the past experience should be possible within 6000 crs keeping in viwe the Indian labour not just at the yard but also at the different levels of steel manufacture.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby merlin » 12 Jan 2011 18:03

So plan for large surface combatants is now...?

3 Delhi + 3 Kolkata + 4 P15B = 10 (also some Kashin in reserve/nearing end of life)
3 Talwar + 3 Teg + 4 Talwar3 + 7 Shivalik = 17 (also 3 Brahmaputra)
1 ADS-1 + 1 Gorshkov (also 1 Viraat far beyond end of life)

A decent sized navy I would say.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby D Roy » 12 Jan 2011 18:36

The 7-8000 Crs ships could be accepted for the Shiviliks as they are larger boats. But the 4 Talwars going by the past experience should be possible within 6000 crs keeping in viwe the Indian labour not just at the yard but also at the different levels of steel manufacture.


but that is not what Pipavav is saying. they are quite set on a 30000 crore figure. of course these may be bigger modifications with more capability. but that remains to be seen.

circa 2020

3 P-15 + 3 P-15A Kolkata + 4 P-15 B + maybe 1-2 Kashins = 10-12 DDGs



3+3+4 Talwars + 3 Shivalik + 3 Brahmaputra + 7 P-17 A follow on shivalik ( 4 at MDL 3 at GRSE) = 23 FFGs

Gorshkov + IAC-1 (2014-15) + IAC -2 ( 65000 tonne) ( 2018) = 3 Carriers.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Singha » 12 Jan 2011 18:54

its very unlikely all the 4 P-15B and 7 P-17A will be online in 2020 ... I would imagine maybe 3 P-15B and 4 P17A given the lack of infra and woeful production rate we keep. still, it will be a bigger surface navy than UK or France I think. the european partner for the P17A has not even been finalized yet, I am not sure even a RFQ is out.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Pratyush » 12 Jan 2011 20:03

D Roy wrote:
but that is not what Pipavav is saying. they are quite set on a 30000 crore figure. of course these may be bigger modifications with more capability. but that remains to be seen.



It seems that 30000 crs, is for more then just the Talwars. Looking at the past experience a made in India ship cannot cost more then 4 times it would cost to make it in Russia.


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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Avid » 12 Jan 2011 21:50

Singha wrote:its very unlikely all the 4 P-15B and 7 P-17A will be online in 2020 ... I would imagine maybe 3 P-15B and 4 P17A given the lack of infra and woeful production rate we keep. still, it will be a bigger surface navy than UK or France I think. the european partner for the P17A has not even been finalized yet, I am not sure even a RFQ is out.


The three of Delhi-Class (the predecessor of P-15A) were commissioned 18 months apart.

The three of [correction]P-15A[end correction] class have been launched and expected to be commissioned 12 months apart (May 2011, 2012, 2013). I am not an expert but assuming the same production rate, we are likely to see all four P15B by 2020.

Project 17 from Date Laid Down to commissioning is expected to be ~8 years for last of P-17. With launch dates roughly 12 months apart. Considering the spate of orders, and the MDL expansion, we are likely to see P-17A ships launch sequence as follows: 1st of the class, followed by 2 in near parallel every 12 months.

I would suspect from laid down date to commissioning of P-17A, we are likely to see ~8 years for the first. The first of P-17A is likely to be commissioned 2019.
Last edited by Avid on 13 Jan 2011 00:34, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Rupak » 12 Jan 2011 23:50

Hi Avid
Technically speaking no 15B have been ordered yet. What you are thinking about is the 3 Kolkata Class (i.e. 15A)

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Avid » 13 Jan 2011 00:44

Rupak wrote:Hi Avid
Technically speaking no 15B have been ordered yet. What you are thinking about is the 3 Kolkata Class (i.e. 15A)


Thanks Rupak. Made the correction above to show commissioning of Kolkata class (15A).

I am unclear about order for the 4 additional follow ups (15B). I believe we saw news about cabinet committee on security clearing the order http://frontierindia.net/indian-navy-to ... destroyers. The estimated date for the entering service is given at 2017. I suspect that is for the 1st of the four 15B.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Avid » 13 Jan 2011 01:15

D Roy wrote:
circa 2020

3 P-15 + 3 P-15A Kolkata + 4 P-15 B + maybe 1-2 Kashins = 10-12 DDGs


3+3+4 Talwars + 3 Shivalik + 3 Brahmaputra + 7 P-17 A follow on shivalik ( 4 at MDL 3 at GRSE) = 23 FFGs

Gorshkov + IAC-1 (2014-15) + IAC -2 ( 65000 tonne) ( 2018) = 3 Carriers.


IMHO we are likely to see all of the modified Kashins (Rajput class), but in slightly different role -- upgraded and armed with Dhanush and/or Brahmos with land attack orientation.

We only know of 3 + 3 Talwars. There is ongoing occasional reports about negotiations for additional 4

IMO, the above overlooks some of the extremely capable IN ships which have been upgraded or are likely to see serious upgrades as a means for maintaining credible strength while the newly designed ships etc. begin rolling out (I am referring to post 15B and 17A).

Existing part of fleet that are prime candidates in surface fleet 2020:
Upgraded Rajput class (5 originally commissioned 1980 to 1988)
Upgraded Godavari Class (3 originally commissioned 1983 - 1988)
Upgraded Brahmaputra Class (3 originally commissioned 2000 - 2004)
Delhi Class/P-15 (3 originally commissioned 1997 - 2001)
Kolkata Class/P-15A (3 to be commissioned 2011 - 2013)
Talwar Class (3 commissioned 2003-2004; 3 to be commissioned 2011-2012)
Shivalik Class/P-17 (3 commissioned/to be commissioned 2010-2011)
-----
That is a total of 29 ships

----
Shivalik Class NG/P-17A (7 to be built, parallel production MDL and GRSE)
Kolkata Class NG/P-15B (4 to be built)
----

Shivalik NG/P-17A: Production is not to start till upgrades are complete at MDL/GRSE.
So construction will not begin till 2012 in both places.
Assuming historical 2 years to launch, 5 years from launch to sea trial, and 1 year to commissioning (based on P-17).
The first of the 2 P-17A will commission in 2020, with 1.5 years between subsequent pairs. None of the 7 will be delivered before 2020.

Kolkata Class NG/P-15B: Based on INS Chennai, laid down to launch ~ 4 years and commissioning additional 3 years.
The first P-15B will be commissioned no earlier than 2017/2018, with 1/year for next 3 years. Optimistically, we will have 3 of the P-15B by 2020.

Surface fleet, based on current orders and expectations: 32 total.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Rupak » 13 Jan 2011 02:52

Maz can confirm, but IIRC all the Rajputs will be given deep upgrades and all the P-16s have recently undergone the same.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby andy B » 13 Jan 2011 03:34

Rupak wrote:Maz can confirm, but IIRC all the Rajputs will be given deep upgrades and all the P-16s have recently undergone the same.



:D :D :D
It'd be great to find out a bit more about the upgrades planned for the Rajputs. I am guessing there will be SAM upgrades most definitely? Brahmos is already being deployed on a few 2 of them?

In the words of GD: Arise Pax Indica your time is coming!

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby K_Rohit » 13 Jan 2011 04:27

Good to know about P-16 upgrades as well. Are they all confirmed to have Barak-1 now? No reports of confirmed sightings?

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Singha » 13 Jan 2011 08:31

everyone is ignoring the P28 - it is a vital ship to our ASW efforts. it is a principal combatant and 4 are in construction? deliveries expected 2012-2015. I am sure 4-6 more will be ordered soon to keep the pipeline full.

so 32+4 = 36 atleast of corvette/ddg/ffg.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Philip » 13 Jan 2011 15:35

http://news.oneindia.in/2011/01/13/inte ... d0126.html

Interim stay on sale of flats in Worli bldg near naval base Mumbai, Jan 13 (PTI)

The Bombay High Court today ordered an interim stay on further sale of flats and induction ofoccupants in an 18-storey building in Central Mumbai hereafter the Indian Navy opposed the high rise due to its closeproximity to a naval base.

Buzz up!The Navy had approached the High Court in October 2010seeking demolition of the ''Harsiddhi'' building in Worli as ithad not obtained the requisite ''No Objection Certificate''(NOC) from western naval authorities before construction.

"The building is just 57 meters from the naval base INSTrata, a portion of which has sensitive missiles and launcherskept. According to rules laid down by the state government, aNOC has to be procured from the Navy for any constructionwithin 300 meters of the base," said Advocate Dinesh Shah,appearing for Navy.

A division bench of Justices D K Deshmukh and N DDeshpande while granting an interim stay on further sale offlats in the building, directed the builder to submit a listof all the present occupants of the high rise.

Apart from Harsiddhi, a seven-storey building under theSlum Rehabilitation Act (SRA) Scheme has also been constructedin the vicinity.

"In September 2008, the Urban Development Department hadissued letter to SRA directing them to issue stop work notice.

Even after SRA issued the notice a month later, constructiondid not stop," the petition states.

Navy has further alleged in its petition that thebuilders Rajshree Constructions and the developers PrithviCorporation are in connivance with the SRA and in conjunctionwith some powerful persons who are able to exert undueinfluence on SRA authorities.

"The naval base INS Trata houses missiles and launchers.

Sensitive activities pertaining to security and defence of thecountry is carried out there," the petition states.

It further states that the high rise has an unrestrictedview of the naval base and its activities which is causinghindrance.

The Indian Navy had procured the land from the Army in1964. The next hearing is scheduled after two weeks.Ads by Google

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby abhishek_sharma » 14 Jan 2011 10:53


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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby shukla » 15 Jan 2011 17:01

Britain wants to cooperate with India in Navy ship building
Bramhand

Britain Friday said it wanted to extend cooperation with India in the field of naval ship building. "There is a considerable scope. There are common things like the way we build ships in the UK. The way we operate is common with the way India does. We do think that naval area is one where there are immense opportunities," British High Commissioner to India Richard Stagg told reporters here.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Singha » 16 Jan 2011 10:01

imho the P28 ASW corvette is the most strategic naval pgm ongoing at present, and enough funds must be allocated to double its production rate and orders. submarines are the biggest threat to IN and merchant ships in IOR and the P28 is best sized soln for it. we need minimum 30 such corvettes to sanitize vast areas, freeing up all bigger ships for offensive and other tasks.

imho we can collaborate with Japan who build good ASW ships on its next iteration and also open a bridge with them via this project. they have a very good shipbuilding sector.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Pratyush » 16 Jan 2011 10:45

Singha,

I both agree and disagree with you post regarding the P 28. :P

On it own it will be inadequate for the job intended by you. However, it gives you the opportunity of creating an ASW hunter killer group when the P 28 Squadron is integrated with a small sized carrier such as the Thai Chakri Naruebet.

The power for both the Sea Controll and ASW will grow exponentially.

So the jingo wet dream is 24 P 28s divided in 8 ASW squadrons of 3 ships each. With each squadron headed by a Chakri type ship.

With the regular sized carriers free to go after the enemy.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Rahul M » 16 Jan 2011 10:47

>> On it own it will be inadequate for the job intended by you.

why ?

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Pratyush » 16 Jan 2011 11:11

The weakness in the air cover dept. A single ship will have two helos, a group of 3 will have 6. But when you need to operate far from main land India and away from land based air. You need all the air cover you can get. Now, an IAC type vessel for the job will be an overkill. But the Chakri sized or slightly smaller boat with up to 16 helos be able to swarm a group of say 4 to 5 subs at the same time. Along with the ability of controlling a vast stretch of ocean.

Additionally if the fleet needs to go after the PLAN in the PRC back yard. It will help the regular Carrier groups by taking their attention off the PLAN subs and concentrating their attention on the surface ships and the land based targets of opportunity.

JMT

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Philip » 16 Jan 2011 12:02

Prat,which is why I recommend us picking up the Ark Royal,prfect for whay you've mentioned and has significant ASW/air defence (harriers) and amphib capabiulity too,with a alrhe load of heavy helos for heliborne assault.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Rahul M » 16 Jan 2011 19:45

you can always create a task force with an additional frigate or destroyer with better AD capabilities to act as a defensive screen. even otherwise they will either operate within the protective cover of shore based fighters or as part CBG's.
a small sized carrier would NOT provide any meaningful air cover. for one, what fighter would you fly off its deck ?

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby nachiket » 17 Jan 2011 01:15

Philip wrote:Prat,which is why I recommend us picking up the Ark Royal,prfect for whay you've mentioned and has significant ASW/air defence (harriers) and amphib capabiulity too,with a alrhe load of heavy helos for heliborne assault.

How are the Ark Royal's harriers supposed to provide air defence? Those new GR7s and GR9s don't even have radars if I'm not wrong.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby John » 17 Jan 2011 05:09

Singha wrote:imho the P28 ASW corvette is the most strategic naval pgm ongoing at present, and enough funds must be allocated to double its production rate and orders. submarines are the biggest threat to IN and merchant ships in IOR and the P28 is best sized soln for it. we need minimum 30 such corvettes to sanitize vast areas, freeing up all bigger ships for offensive and other tasks.

imho we can collaborate with Japan who build good ASW ships on its next iteration and also open a bridge with them via this project. they have a very good shipbuilding sector.

IMO P-28 are waste of money it was nice idea, build a ASW vessel to make up for shortfall in surface combatants and P-17 delays but the delays and cost escalation made it unfruitful. IN should focus on P-17A rather than any more P-28s or even more Talwars.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Viv S » 17 Jan 2011 08:39

nachiket wrote:
Philip wrote:Prat,which is why I recommend us picking up the Ark Royal,prfect for whay you've mentioned and has significant ASW/air defence (harriers) and amphib capabiulity too,with a alrhe load of heavy helos for heliborne assault.

How are the Ark Royal's harriers supposed to provide air defence? Those new GR7s and GR9s don't even have radars if I'm not wrong.


They can be retrofitted with radars. The USMC's Harrier-IIs were later equipped with the AN/APG-65, similar to the IN Sea Harrier's EL/M-2032 upgrade.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Philip » 17 Jan 2011 11:18

The P-28s and AOPVs have significant roles to play,replacing the Petya's of yore and in a crisis the AOPVs can be upgraded with better sensors and weaponry.The key system would be the helo on both types.If a larger NH-90 class helo can be carrid it augurs well as the naval ALH has been a failure and is too shortlegged.These vessels are better off for littoral warfare/brown water duties as against the more expensive P-17s.With the new Chinese deal with Burma (posted elsewhere) for oil jettys and naval faciltiies,the presence of the PLAN in IOR waters will become commonplace.The IN needs to be expanded rapidly and in great force,with more subs,LRMP/MRP aircraft and multi-role; corvette/frigate sized warships,which are needed in large numbers.

China has outflanked India totally now with base agreements with Pak at Gwadar and Burma and logistic facilities at Hambantota and Chittagong.It is a dismal failure of Indian diplomacy/UPA regime in preventing this,especially as the MEA has been subordinate to the (spineless) PMO on matters foreign.Chiuna is nibbling away at Indian territory shamefully without even a whimper of protest from the PMO which ostrich like it trying to deceive the Indian people that the crisis does not exist!

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Raghavendra » 17 Jan 2011 12:26

Navy’s UAV squadron at Porbandar gets going
http://www.zeenews.com/news681055.html

Ahmedabad: Aiming to strengthen coastal surveillance in Gujarat, the Indian Navy would commission Unmanned Aerial Surveillance (UAV) squadron at Porbandar on Monday.

"The squadron will comprise four units of two Israeli-made Searcher and Heron UAVs. It will help in strengthening our coastal surveillance in the Arabian Sea along the coast of Gujarat," a senior Navy official said.

This is the second squadron of UAVs to be deployed by the Navy along the long coastline of the country. A similar squadron was commissioned by Navy at its base in Kochi, a couple of years ago.

Indian Navy is amongst the few elite forces in the world to have deployed such squadrons for maritime surveillance.

Commissioning of Navy squadron in Porbandar assumes importance due to the town's proximity with Pakistan.

The Navy presently uses a small mix of Israeli Heron and Searcher MK-2 UAVs, and is making efforts to acquire shipborne unmanned rotorcraft.

Post 26/11, India has taken several measures to strengthen coastal security after terrorists sailed close to the Gujarat coast in a dhow and reached Mumbai to launch multiple attacks on various targets.

The squadron will be commissioned by the Gujarat Governor Dr Kamla.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby chackojoseph » 17 Jan 2011 16:14

Bangladesh Naval delegation visits Southern Naval Command

Several hundred personnel of Bangladesh Navy have undergone professional training in India since 1972. Currently, there are several Bangladesh Navy personnel undergoing training in various institutions under Southern Naval Command. Similarly, India has also been sending its Navy personnel to Bangladesh for training.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby chackojoseph » 17 Jan 2011 20:07



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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Cybaru » 18 Jan 2011 04:00




Does these squadrons have 4 units only vs 15-20 aircraft ?

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby srai » 18 Jan 2011 06:46

Cybaru wrote:



Does these squadrons have 4 units only vs 15-20 aircraft ?


According to this old BR page on INAS 342 Flying Sentinels, IN's UAV squadron consists of 6 Searcher Mk.2 and 6 Heron UAVs.

INAS 342 was raised on 07 January 2006 and Commander Rajesh Kawatra was the commissioning squadron commander. In 2002, the Indian Navy took delivery of six Searcher Mk II UAVs and a single Medium Altitude High Endurance (MALE) Heron UAV from Israel. In early 2003, these UAVs were inducted at Kochi for the Intensive Flying & Trials Unit (IFTU). Trials continued for three years which enabled the Indian Navy to master the use of these unique flying machines. Subsequently on 07 January 2006, INAS 342 Squadron was commissioned at INS Garuda with six Searcher Mk II UAVs and six Heron UAVs. They also operate from Vizag in Andra Pradesh, Porbander in Gujarat and Port Blair in the Andaman & Nicobar Islands. The Indian Navy is expected to have as many as three squadrons of UAVs.


Plus, add to this some reserves ... another 4 to 6 UAVs (i.e. 2 to 3 Searcher Mk.2 and 2 to 3 Heron). So the total you are looking at is around 16 to 18 UAVs.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby tsarkar » 18 Jan 2011 16:41

srai wrote:According to this old BR page, IN's UAV squadron consists of 6 Searcher Mk.2 and 6 Heron UAVs. Plus, add to this some reserves ... another 4 to 6 UAVs (i.e. 2 to 3 Searcher Mk.2 and 2 to 3 Heron). So the total you are looking at is around 16 to 18 UAVs.
Squadron strengths are decided based on operational taskings. For example, 122 squadron based at Jaisalmer in 1971 had only 4 Hunters on strength.

For MPA, 4-8 aircraft are ideal for an operational tasking (depending on aircraft capability) and you'll find many MPA squadrons with that number of aircraft. US P-3C squadrons have 8 planes apiece.

Also, in India and Pakistan, squadron are based on types, for ease of operations and maintenance, but this is not the most effective / efficient way. Eg 315 has 4 Il38 that is appropriate but 312 with 8 Tu142 was more like a wing rather than a squadron. At any point of time, 312 had multiple operational taskings that is inefficient.

A Heron system consists of two aircraft while a Searcher consists of four. Procurement was in these multiples. If memory serves right, 342 at Garuda with dets at Porbandar and Uchipuli had 4 Heron & 8 Searchers. Two Herons were ordered 2008 & should have been delivered by now, and I belive these two Herons along with some Searchers ex-342, that were surplus for 342 operational tasking, were released to form 343.

The squadron strength is ample for the operational tasking. Its speculation extrapolating squadron ORBAT at a previous point of time to another one today.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby chackojoseph » 18 Jan 2011 17:20

Exercise Varuna part of mission Agapanthe 2010-11
interesting stuff

The French ships were open and one could see all aspects of the Carrier Operations and it was evident the French were impressing the Indian Naval Officers who visited and exercised that the Indian Navy should consider the Charles De Gaulle reactor, arrestor gear and systems to operate the Rafale from the reported IN 60,000 ton carrier on the drawing boards in Naval Design Bureau.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby chackojoseph » 18 Jan 2011 17:23

Cybaru wrote:



Does these squadrons have 4 units only vs 15-20 aircraft ?


Currently 4 units. it could be expanded.

Porbandar and Kochi bases are good enough to cover the west coast line.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Singha » 18 Jan 2011 17:25

er, operating a 60,000 carrier without the benefit of catapult is a waste of planes. and we need to talk to the big guy for that, not the french. can CODAG or COGAG power plants using pielstick diesels and GE turbines generate enough steam ? I dont know. will unkil sell his electromagnetic cats? I dont know.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby chackojoseph » 18 Jan 2011 17:27

Guess what the duel technology ban has ended for.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby negi » 18 Jan 2011 21:03

^ Well to be honest Unkil has agreed to just revisit the list of entities which were on it's list as far as access to dual use technologies is concerned it might help the scientific fraternity as such but as far as benefit to our MIC is concerned the news about Elta 2052 should be a sign of things to come. :)

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Avid » 18 Jan 2011 21:08

John wrote:
Singha wrote:imho the P28 ASW corvette is the most strategic naval pgm ongoing at present, and enough funds must be allocated to double its production rate and orders. submarines are the biggest threat to IN and merchant ships in IOR and the P28 is best sized soln for it. we need minimum 30 such corvettes to sanitize vast areas, freeing up all bigger ships for offensive and other tasks.

imho we can collaborate with Japan who build good ASW ships on its next iteration and also open a bridge with them via this project. they have a very good shipbuilding sector.

IMO P-28 are waste of money it was nice idea, build a ASW vessel to make up for shortfall in surface combatants and P-17 delays but the delays and cost escalation made it unfruitful. IN should focus on P-17A rather than any more P-28s or even more Talwars.


Substituting P28As with P-17A? They are not in the same class, not the same purpose. I beg some explanation on how this substitution would work.

P-28 is a ~2500 ton ASW Corvette (nearing a Frigate of yesteryears in size)
Armed with 1 x 16 cell Barak SAM for AD
P-28 would be ~27 knots top speed, with P-28A ~32 knots
Range ~4,000 nm
Crew of ~85

P-17A is a ~5,500 ton guided missile frigate
Armed with a 2 x 16 cell Barak SAM, 1 x 8 cell Brahmos/Klub
top speed of ~32 knots
Crew of ~257
Cost ~US$550 million

In an ASW role where coverage is essential, would you rather have 3 x P-28 (cost and crew equivalence), or 1 P-17A?


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