Indian Naval Discussion

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Gagan
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Gagan » 02 Feb 2011 09:03

It was not a full head on collision from the cellphone video it seems.
Looks like both ships tried to maneuver away from each other, and more of a side impact kind of collision took place.

That Nordlake is a HUGE monster of a ship and was loaded to the teeth. In a head on collision it could have possibly broken the Vindhyagiri into two and sunk it in like less than an hour.

Instead here the vindhyagiri survived, there was time to take the passengers off the ship, the ship was towed to the dockyard. There was a raging fire on board the engine and boiler rooms.

Wouldn't it have been great if the navy could have towed the ship directly to the dry dock instead of just the harbour berth? I understand that maneuvering the ship into a narrow dry dock is a very time consuming process, and with a vessel that was taking in water and with an uncontrolled fire on board and with ammunition also on board, that was not the fastest thing to do.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby merlin » 02 Feb 2011 10:32

prithvi wrote:NDTV managed to get a cell phone video from people on board .... this clearly shows three ships scenario and apparent lack of harbor management .. how can three ships became entangled in such a mess with all the gps and modern techs is beyond me.. .but may be there are issues that we are not even aware off.....
link to the video of the incident ..
http://www.ndtv.com/video/player/news/t ... ire/189725


I take it you have never used GPS before :P

Gagan
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Gagan » 02 Feb 2011 10:55

My impression based on the cell phone video.

BY NO MEANS IS THIS MEANT TO REPRESENT THE ACTUAL EVENTS, THIS IS JUST AN ARTIST'S IMPRESSION.

Image

The impact makes the Vindhyagiri change direction abruptly, it appears to be a nearly head on collision but at an angle.
Image

Image
Now it is not possible to say exactly what happened, but perhaps both ships, INS Vindhyagiri and MV Nordlake took evasive maneuvers. The thing to note is by looking at the wake of the Nordlake, that ship is clearly moving at high speeds.
Last edited by Gagan on 02 Feb 2011 12:10, edited 4 times in total.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby jai » 02 Feb 2011 10:56

Navy should confiscate Nordlake, modify it as required at the cost of the current owners and then include it in its fleet - it lost a ship and should get one in return :twisted: :twisted:

Gagan
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Gagan » 02 Feb 2011 10:58

Ah! the good old Sharia Law hain ji?

Gagan
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Gagan » 02 Feb 2011 11:20

Two other images of the damage on the Vindhyagiri taken with a cellphone camera.

The ship appears to be on the dock berthed. Is the radar mast damaged?
These images were origionally upside down, I have straightened them and reapplied the Headlines Today logo.
Thanks to Livefist for these:
Image

Image

Viv S
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Viv S » 02 Feb 2011 12:51

Gagan wrote:These images were origionally upside down, I have straightened them and reapplied the Headlines Today logo.
Thanks to Livefist for these:


From which direction/aspect have the pictures been taken from. It looks sort of like the International Space Station to me.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby akimalik » 02 Feb 2011 13:23

From the looks of it, it has been taken by someone standing on the Jetty (look at the bottom right corner where one can see the black & white bands of the jetty's edge).
Things look quite haphazard, but has the ship already listed/capsized - which is why we see things at such awkward angles.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Singha » 02 Feb 2011 13:30

shows the upper portion of the radar mast. rest of ship is down below out of FOV.

Gagan
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Gagan » 02 Feb 2011 14:12

?
Image

PS: Shiv Aroor's pictures seem to be horizontally & Vertically inverted

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby HarshS » 02 Feb 2011 17:51

What surprises me is that after the collission, first how did the ship catch fire, second, how could the fire not be controlled, and third how did it sink. Yes, the firefighting shorted the pumps which flooded, but wasn't all this thought about. Thus, my worry is not the accident, it's the inability to do anything about it, and that inside the naval base. Imagine if a warship is rammed at sea (say in the Malacca straits), will history repeat itself?

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby tsarkar » 02 Feb 2011 18:23

^^ Imagine all those Tata Sumos and Mahindra Boleros that are struck by trucks on the highways, does history repeat itself? Why dont SUV manufacturers think about this, since there are so many accidents every year? Will Newton's First Law repeat itself, or can it be repealed? Thus, my worry is exactly the accident, & my - or anyones - inability to do anything about it, hence I drive carefully.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Lalmohan » 02 Feb 2011 18:58

ships of that vintage are quite prone to fire damage, the HMS Sheffield burnt out as well, after a relatively small hit. i think its due to extensive use of aluminium and insufficient fire protection of cables and electrics

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby akimalik » 02 Feb 2011 19:00

HarshS wrote:What surprises me is that after the collission, first how did the ship catch fire, second, how could the fire not be controlled, and third how did it sink. Yes, the firefighting shorted the pumps which flooded, but wasn't all this thought about. Thus, my worry is not the accident, it's the inability to do anything about it, and that inside the naval base. Imagine if a warship is rammed at sea (say in the Malacca straits), will history repeat itself?


Dear Harsh,
the senior members of the forum have already (several times) tried to bring to light the issues faced with regards to the collision. For instance shiv sir has tried to give an idea of the magnitude of impact (ref to his post on 01 Feb 2011 08:02). If the ship has been able to withstand that impact (even towards the fag end of her life), then that speaks for the level of commitment of the ship's company in keeping her fighting fit.

Why did the fire start? There is a technical explanation to that (some suggestions have been made in the preceding page).

Why did she eventually sink? Again, this has been explained. After all a ship made of steel can sink under the right circumstances. You cannot make it unsinkable. Some people tried it early in the 20th century. Now there is a movie about it.

There is plenty of information available here on the forum that may help answer your questions. I believe if you look, you shall find :-).

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Rahul M » 02 Feb 2011 19:05

Lalmohan wrote:ships of that vintage are quite prone to fire damage, the HMS Sheffield burnt out as well, after a relatively small hit. i think its due to extensive use of aluminium and insufficient fire protection of cables and electrics

a very pertinent point. I believe this aspect of ship design underwent a major change post the sheffield incident.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby shiv » 02 Feb 2011 19:43

HarshS wrote:What surprises me is that after the collission, first how did the ship catch fire

You are surprised because you have forgotten high school physics

When a 15,000 ton ship hits another ship its like an instantaneous collision between 15,000 cars. The energy that is released heats up metal to ignition point and anything that can ignite gets ignited and will burn. Just take a coin and hammer it ten times with a hammer - and you will find that the coin is hot after that. Now if you can hammer it 25 million times in 2 seconds you get a feel for how hot it is when two large metal masses collide.

Check this post of mine
viewtopic.php?p=1021876#p1021876

HarshS wrote: second, how could the fire not be controlled

An enquiry will be conducted to determine this


HarshS wrote:and third how did it sink.

When a ship has a hole in its side, water gushes in and it can sink. In this case it did not sink till it reached port, everyone rescued and even then it might well have stayed low in the water if it was in deep water. We don't know for sure. Yet.


HarshS wrote: Yes, the firefighting shorted the pumps which flooded, but wasn't all this thought about. Thus, my worry is not the accident, it's the inability to do anything about it, and that inside the naval base. Imagine if a warship is rammed at sea (say in the Malacca straits), will history repeat itself?


I believe that you have a rosy picture of what can happen to warships and what sailors can do about it.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby akimalik » 02 Feb 2011 19:47

Shiv Sir,

Thanks for the 2nd round of explanations. I wanted to cross-reference your earlier post but did not know how to do the same.

Rgds,
a

prithvi

Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby prithvi » 02 Feb 2011 20:07

merlin wrote:
prithvi wrote:NDTV managed to get a cell phone video from people on board .... this clearly shows three ships scenario and apparent lack of harbor management .. how can three ships became entangled in such a mess with all the gps and modern techs is beyond me.. .but may be there are issues that we are not even aware off.....
link to the video of the incident ..
http://www.ndtv.com/video/player/news/t ... ire/189725


I take it you have never used GPS before :P


why ..? you have a better explanation? please elaborate..
apart from the fact that I use GPS all most day and night for my work.. I have the opportunity to see captain's cabin for ferries in New York harbor primarily in and around Hudson bay and Verrazano-Narrows... they seem to have pretty detailed digital chart and map of all the surrounding vessels and their speed and direction..etc..
these observations are all from layman's perspective as I have no clue of naval navigation.. but fair bit of idea of what has typically become standard devices these days... ...

prithvi

Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby prithvi » 02 Feb 2011 20:18

also do we have something like a harbor master in Bombay port...? just sharing my experience of seeing how harbor master boats runs across the Hudson to police rough vessels... as entry to New York harbor is one of the busiest sea channel around...

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Gagan » 02 Feb 2011 22:17

AFAIK,
All ports in India have Harbour Masters and a team of pilots to navigate ships in and out of ports.

Most of the harbour masters are ex-IN.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Lalmohan » 02 Feb 2011 22:28

harbour masters have been in place for 200+ years in Indian ports
in the british system, the hoogly river pilots were an elite group of highly skilled masters
if i am not mistaken, there is still a very stringent exam for this post
similar setups in other 'british era' ports

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Sandipan » 02 Feb 2011 23:38

Maybe the crash of INS Vindhyagiri was carried out intentionally, what I have come to know it was one of the oldest ship in IN and anyway it was supposed to be decommissioned next year. The crash may be a crash test carried out by IN the way the automakers test Cars for their durability. IN might want to know how much the ship can take on a collision with something 10 times its size just to make design changes / innovations.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby ramana » 02 Feb 2011 23:50

WOW!

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby hnair » 02 Feb 2011 23:56

Collision test in a busy harbor with family members and crew abroad with a foreign vessel? phew!

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby tsarkar » 03 Feb 2011 00:03

^^ And IN put their families onboard as crash test dummies? Did you even bother to read the information painstakingly typed by people earlier?

Crash testing is done, but via Sea Eagle/Uran/Klub/Brahmos and submarine fired torpedoes AFTER decommissioning Durg and Nilgiri class ships, without any HUMANS onboard. Not using German container ships...

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby prithvi » 03 Feb 2011 00:07

Sandipan wrote:Maybe the crash of INS Vindhyagiri was carried out intentionally, what I have come to know it was one of the oldest ship in IN and anyway it was supposed to be decommissioned next year. The crash may be a crash test carried out by IN the way the automakers test Cars for their durability. IN might want to know how much the ship can take on a collision with something 10 times its size just to make design changes / innovations.

:(( :(( :((

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby hnair » 03 Feb 2011 00:08

tsarkar-sir, things will fall into perspective if you take a glance at Shree K Subramanium's obituary thread..... consistent flippant behavior towards human life.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Boreas » 03 Feb 2011 00:08

Sandipan wrote:Maybe the crash of INS Vindhyagiri was carried out intentionally, what I have come to know it was one of the oldest ship in IN and anyway it was supposed to be decommissioned next year. The crash may be a crash test carried out by IN the way the automakers test Cars for their durability. IN might want to know how much the ship can take on a collision with something 10 times its size just to make design changes / innovations.


Good point, Now who needs carrier-killers and anti ship missiles! Infact they should try the same with fighter jets.. they to need "design changes" :rotfl:

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby shiv » 03 Feb 2011 05:34

The link below illustrates some of the problems of firefighting on ships. "Famous" ships of fire are the HMS Sheffield and USS Forrestal
click

Here is an interesting blog story of confusion and mayhem after a ship fire where nobody died
http://gcaptain.com/bravo-on-my-watch-b ... logger?390

Ok, here’s where it gets even better. After a few minutes, the staff captain briefly entered the engineroom (I’m not kidding.), with a damp cloth over his face. What’s with this damp-cloth-thing? Is there a budget crisis on this ship where they’re in short supply of BA’s? I also thought that once CO2 is released into a main space that doesn’t have AFFF bilge sprinkling, you have to wait 24 hours prior to entry. I could be wrong, but I don’t think so. Also, if you really think it’s necessary to enter a space where the fire hasn’t been deemed out, wouldn’t it be a good idea to bring a hose team with you instead of entering the space alone?

Just when you thought it couldn’t get any better, it does. About 10 minutes after the CO2 dump, the chief engineer enters the space (Am I the only one who’s heard of this 24 hour thing?). At least he’s wearing a BA, but he’s also alone. Why is he even in there? Well, he wants to perform an atmospheric test in the space. It’s not bad enough that a trained hose team has yet to enter the space and declare the fire out, the chief engineer has an unusual method of atmospheric testing: He takes off his BA and sniffs! No, I am not making this up. He sniffs (“OK guys, I’m not dead. Come on in!”). He then orders ventilation opened up to the space where the fire still hasn’t been declared out by a hose team (Can you say: “Reflash” That’s a big word.). Almost two hours later, two fire teams with thermal imaging cameras (flown on board) finally check out the space and declare the fire officially out ( . . . though it’s not only merely dead, it’s really most sincerely dead!).

To add to everything, two weeks previously, the safety officer (who couldn’t fit down the hatch) scheduled hectic training due to firefighting deficiencies noted from a previous PSC inspection. Nine days later, the MCA found them “satisfactory.” (Hmmm, if they only knew.)


Oh, on a final-final note: the reason the fire started was because some rocket scientist modified a spray guard on a fuel line for the diesel . . . ooops!
Last edited by shiv on 03 Feb 2011 05:36, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby bhavani » 03 Feb 2011 05:35

Guys,

i have a question guys regarding the Talwar class. If one looks at the vertical missile tubes and RBu launchers there is a lot of empty space between the RBU tubes and the Deck. Is there a possibility that later the RBU tubes can be removed a 40 round vertical Mag can be place here.

Why does IN navy space so much emphasis on RBU tubes. They occupy so much space.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby nits » 03 Feb 2011 06:00

Sandipan wrote:Maybe the crash of INS Vindhyagiri was carried out intentionally, what I have come to know it was one of the oldest ship in IN and anyway it was supposed to be decommissioned next year. The crash may be a crash test carried out by IN the way the automakers test Cars for their durability. IN might want to know how much the ship can take on a collision with something 10 times its size just to make design changes / innovations.


Thats one of most Bizzare thing i have read in recent time... may be you can post this in Humor Thread...

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby HarshS » 03 Feb 2011 11:46

Shiv,

Didn't study physics at high school. Thanks for the update of why the fire started?

akimalik, I'll go through the earlier posts but it wasn't clear to me whether the sinking could have been prevented, and before that why couldn't the fire have been put out faster--given that every thing that was needed to put out a fire was readily available--not like a fire in the Sheffield in the Falklands.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby merlin » 03 Feb 2011 13:37

prithvi wrote:
why ..? you have a better explanation? please elaborate..
apart from the fact that I use GPS all most day and night for my work.. I have the opportunity to see captain's cabin for ferries in New York harbor primarily in and around Hudson bay and Verrazano-Narrows... they seem to have pretty detailed digital chart and map of all the surrounding vessels and their speed and direction..etc..
these observations are all from layman's perspective as I have no clue of naval navigation.. but fair bit of idea of what has typically become standard devices these days... ...


Since you use it day and night please explain what it is used for and what it can't be used for.

In conditions when you can see the other ships, what value add does GPS bring in? When you know where you are, what value add does GPS bring in? How would GPS have prevented this particular incident?

prithvi

Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby prithvi » 03 Feb 2011 16:58

merlin wrote:
prithvi wrote:
why ..? you have a better explanation? please elaborate..
apart from the fact that I use GPS all most day and night for my work.. I have the opportunity to see captain's cabin for ferries in New York harbor primarily in and around Hudson bay and Verrazano-Narrows... they seem to have pretty detailed digital chart and map of all the surrounding vessels and their speed and direction..etc..
these observations are all from layman's perspective as I have no clue of naval navigation.. but fair bit of idea of what has typically become standard devices these days... ...


Since you use it day and night please explain what it is used for and what it can't be used for.

In conditions when you can see the other ships, what value add does GPS bring in? When you know where you are, what value add does GPS bring in? How would GPS have prevented this particular incident?


have you ever heard of a term called "Situational Awareness"...? so in a crowded port you maneuver ships of these size by a visual approach..even if it is daylight..? :rotfl: :rotfl:

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby merlin » 03 Feb 2011 17:39

prithvi wrote:have you ever heard of a term called "Situational Awareness"...? so in a crowded port you maneuver ships of these size by a visual approach..even if it is daylight..? :rotfl: :rotfl:


GPS for situational awareness? Please explain in the context of a crowded port, maneuvering ships, avoiding collisions, all using GPS.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby shukla » 03 Feb 2011 18:03

Indian Navy to buy four more P-8Is aircraft
Economic Times

In a deal expected to range between $1 billion to $1.5 billion, the new aircraft will be in addition to the eight the Navy had ordered in January 2009, for about $2.1 billion. The new contract price is also expected to include the cost of aero-structures and avionics. “The Indian Navy has received the necessary government approvals and has decided to go ahead with the contractual processes to acquire four additional P-8I aircraft under the options clause,” Commander PVS Satish, public relations officer for the Indian Navy told The Economic Times. According to sources, Boeing has already submitted its draft offset contract to the defence ministry last week. “The government is considering exercising the option of adding four P-8I aircraft,” Dr Vivek Lall, vice-president, Boeing Defence, Space & Security told ET.


Separately, Boeing has also submitted a reply to the Navy’s Request for Information for six medium-range maritime reconnaissance aircraft as well. However, ministry sources did not confirm whether any of the other global defence vendors had responded to the same. Others expected to be in the running for the contract include Russia’s Ilyushin, France’s Dassault and EADS . Like most defence deals pursued in India, the acquisition of the MRMR aircraft has followed a long and tortuous route. With the original global Request for Procurement issued in 2008, before the Mumbai attacks, the same was later scrapped by the defence ministry on certain technical grounds.


prithvi

Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby prithvi » 03 Feb 2011 18:24

merlin wrote:
prithvi wrote:have you ever heard of a term called "Situational Awareness"...? so in a crowded port you maneuver ships of these size by a visual approach..even if it is daylight..? :rotfl: :rotfl:


GPS for situational awareness? Please explain in the context of a crowded port, maneuvering ships, avoiding collisions, all using GPS.


don't argue just for the sake of it... read my original statement.. I said with GPS and all other modern devices... including some additional satellite added port traffic management application .. I am sure we are not sending all these IRS and custom satellites only for broadcasting and distance education...
it is you who scoffed at the suggestion in a typical omniscient fashion without providing the legitimate reason of why a naval GPS is not important tool to avoid collision irrespective of day and night scenario.... .. I am sure just like the airlines do .. there should some sort of proximity warning... for naval vessels....

coming back to situation awareness... having a 360 degree view of your co-ordinates and potential cross-paths with other vessel is only possible through a glass display map... and not through old fashion human eye which often falters because of optical illusion and lack of understanding of relative velocity of approaching vessels......

I rest my argument here.. and unless you really have anything serious to offer.. not going to offer any further explanation..

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Aditya_V » 03 Feb 2011 18:27



Offset clause applicable or is the Offset Policy used a TOILET paper.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Singha » 03 Feb 2011 18:28

we need to close asap on the 2nd tier system to supplement the gold bullet P8I preferably in a 4:1 ratio... :evil:
Last edited by Singha on 03 Feb 2011 18:40, edited 1 time in total.


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