Indian Naval Discussion

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SriSri
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby SriSri » 03 Feb 2011 18:37

Singha wrote:offset apparently does not apply to FMS deals? someone posted on that here...

That is correct I believe. Here's a very good detailed explanation of how the procurement procedure has evolved - http://www.india-defence.com/reports-4944

I think the author might know a thing or two about this :-)

About the Author
Colonel KV Kuber is an Indian Army veteran, having served in the Corps of Signals for 28 years. He specialized in Electronic Warfare and commanded an EW Battalion in operations. Col Kuber founded the DOFA and was the Director of Capital Acquisitions and Offsets in the Ministry of Defence from 2005 till 2009. After a brief stint as Senior Vice President Investment Banking with Religare, he is presently serving with Deccan Chronicle Holdings.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Gurinder P » 03 Feb 2011 18:47

HarshS wrote:Shiv,

Didn't study physics at high school. Thanks for the update of why the fire started?

akimalik, I'll go through the earlier posts but it wasn't clear to me whether the sinking could have been prevented, and before that why couldn't the fire have been put out faster--given that every thing that was needed to put out a fire was readily available--not like a fire in the Sheffield in the Falklands.


Being an older class I was initially thinking that a lack of fire suppression was only natural since modern foam ejectors and such were still in development way back yonder and whenever I look at these frigates I always think of them as budget ships unlike the state of art Shivaliks and Talwars. But, the Nilgiri class should have gone through some engine upgrades and turnarounds in their later years, therefore why would a ship be lacking in fire suppression in this day and age? especially in the engine room?

I can only pray that all of the IN's new ships have active fire suppression systems.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Aditya_V » 03 Feb 2011 18:50

Hmmm, so all Purchases from the US C-130, P-8I, Harpoons, 777, Artillery, C-17 are all offset immune, thats $8 Bil folks. So Offest policy is not worth the paper its written on. Next imagine MMRCA is one of Teens which again goes through FMS??

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby chackojoseph » 03 Feb 2011 19:32

They have a lot of offsets already. They actually over conform DPP.

prithvi

Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby prithvi » 03 Feb 2011 19:35

chackojoseph wrote:They have a lot of offsets already. They actually over conform DPP.


I kind of look at it from this perspective.. without getting into potential corruption and all... US market is wide open our service industry anyway (IT/BPO) and we really don't have much to complain about in-terms of trade deficit for the time being... looking at Russia and Europe .. the same can't be said...

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby John » 03 Feb 2011 21:23

bhavani wrote:Guys,

i have a question guys regarding the Talwar class. If one looks at the vertical missile tubes and RBu launchers there is a lot of empty space between the RBU tubes and the Deck. Is there a possibility that later the RBU tubes can be removed a 40 round vertical Mag can be place here.

Why does IN navy space so much emphasis on RBU tubes. They occupy so much space.

Keep in mind the RBU is only hard kill mechanism we have against torpedoes, they can also be used against enemy crafts (USS cole type incident) or even attacking targets in the land. One of the reasons IN has continued procuring them, also i believe now L&T has license to manufacture them. So they should be relatively cheap compared to procuring a new system like RPK-9.

As for replacing that with 40 round VLS cell that is unlikely, 1 launcher RPK-8 system weights about 10 tons even 8 cell Klub VLS cell with missiles weight more than that. I would be surprised if you can fit anything more into Talwar frigate design seeing how crammed it already is.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby merlin » 04 Feb 2011 09:59

prithvi wrote:don't argue just for the sake of it... read my original statement.. I said with GPS and all other modern devices... including some additional satellite added port traffic management application .. I am sure we are not sending all these IRS and custom satellites only for broadcasting and distance education...
it is you who scoffed at the suggestion in a typical omniscient fashion without providing the legitimate reason of why a naval GPS is not important tool to avoid collision irrespective of day and night scenario.... .. I am sure just like the airlines do .. there should some sort of proximity warning... for naval vessels....

coming back to situation awareness... having a 360 degree view of your co-ordinates and potential cross-paths with other vessel is only possible through a glass display map... and not through old fashion human eye which often falters because of optical illusion and lack of understanding of relative velocity of approaching vessels......

I rest my argument here.. and unless you really have anything serious to offer.. not going to offer any further explanation..


Hmm, lots of buzzwords, no real answers. Typical case of "technology is the answer, technology is the answer".

Fine, rest your arguments and be done with it. I thought I would learn something new here, looks unlikely.

prithvi

Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby prithvi » 04 Feb 2011 11:25

merlin wrote:
prithvi wrote:don't argue just for the sake of it... read my original statement.. I said with GPS and all other modern devices... including some additional satellite added port traffic management application .. I am sure we are not sending all these IRS and custom satellites only for broadcasting and distance education...
it is you who scoffed at the suggestion in a typical omniscient fashion without providing the legitimate reason of why a naval GPS is not important tool to avoid collision irrespective of day and night scenario.... .. I am sure just like the airlines do .. there should some sort of proximity warning... for naval vessels....

coming back to situation awareness... having a 360 degree view of your co-ordinates and potential cross-paths with other vessel is only possible through a glass display map... and not through old fashion human eye which often falters because of optical illusion and lack of understanding of relative velocity of approaching vessels......

I rest my argument here.. and unless you really have anything serious to offer.. not going to offer any further explanation..


Hmm, lots of buzzwords, no real answers. Typical case of "technology is the answer, technology is the answer".

Fine, rest your arguments and be done with it. I thought I would learn something new here, looks unlikely.


how on heaven's name someone can be so willfully blind..? a naval gps gives you a 360 situation awareness ..day and night.. I am not sure what is missing here !!! :rotfl: :rotfl: .. technology is an enabler and not an answer.. never mind...

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Philip » 04 Feb 2011 14:29

The RBUs can also supposedly launch decoy rounds,etc.,

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby akimalik » 04 Feb 2011 14:30

prithvi wrote:how on heaven's name someone can be so willfully blind..? a naval gps gives you a 360 situation awareness ..day and night.. I am not sure what is missing here !!! :rotfl: :rotfl: .. technology is an enabler and not an answer.. never mind...


Pardon my ignorance, what exactly is a "Naval GPS"?
To the best of my understanding GPS is merely helpful in locating one's own position. That too down to a few 10s of meters of accuracy (I assume that Indian Navy is not privvy to US Military-grade GPS).
So how does GPS on its own generate Situational Awareness?

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Philip » 04 Feb 2011 14:50

I have posted in the KS thread a link to a paper on "India's Monroe doctrine".Required reading to understand the contours of the growth and future force planning of the IN.Here is one excerpt.

Indian naval planners would vest little trust in foreign military suppliers under the strongman paradigm. Completing a self-sufficient indigenous defence–industrial base, therefore, would assume high priority for the Indian military. In force-structure terms a hegemonic Indian Navy would probably feature six to nine carrier task forces, four to six SSBNs, and a fleet of SSNs. At least three carrier groups would thus be available for speedy deployment. Indian forces would be organized into east- and west-coast fleets, providing immediate military options in both the Ara- bian Sea and the Bay of Bengal, while the remaining assets would consti- tute a third, expeditionary fleet for power-projection missions farther from Indian coasts—in all likelihood beyond the confines of the Indian Ocean.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby tsarkar » 04 Feb 2011 19:54

Not sure whether members have seen this, but good information on Indian sonars, torpedoes and pictures are here http://www.drdo.gov.in/drdo/English/dpi ... Oct_08.pdf

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby sumshyam » 04 Feb 2011 21:26


tsarkar
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby tsarkar » 04 Feb 2011 23:42

Details of the P-8 radar. If I remember right, Indian P-8 have both the APY-10 and a derivative of the Telephonics Seahawk radar.

http://www.aviationweek.com/aw/blogs/de ... d=blogDest

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Sidhant » 04 Feb 2011 23:44

prithvi wrote:how on heaven's name someone can be so willfully blind..? a naval gps gives you a 360 situation awareness ..day and night.. I am not sure what is missing here !!! :rotfl: :rotfl: .. technology is an enabler and not an answer.. never mind...


Prithvi dada, how would this 360 situational awareness would have predicted the sudden maneuvering of that merchant ship. The problem is that the merchant vessel made a sudden unexpected maneuver and there was nothing much the captain of the ill fated IN ship could have done about it, GPS or no GPS.

prithvi

Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby prithvi » 04 Feb 2011 23:54

Marten wrote:OT ^ Oh man, that was such a dumb question. Don't you know harbour masters and 360* GPS based awareness also equips the ships with instantaneous turn rates. It is the intersection of the best of naval and "aerial" navigation only.

Seriously, that all three were next to each other is the real issue. Folks who haven't seen busy waterways wouldn't able to comment, and since that group includes me, I'll refrain from saying more without reading up or asking folks who are more knowledgeable. Of course that also means I will listen to them without trying to add smileys that try to add contempt to the mix. Thanks Sidhant.

what about you coming up with a smart quip "I am guessing you never used a GPS before" .. an educated answer would not have dragged this so much... lead by examples.. life would be simple

prithvi

Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby prithvi » 05 Feb 2011 00:16

Marten wrote:I have used it to navigate both cars and a boat, but have never used it to physically maneuver any vehicle. How is that done? Please do educate us.

How about this then:
Can it help me avoid fast moving cars that duck into mine while above 80mph? I'd happily invite you to try that on the I95 on a Friday evening. Hands-free and GPS enabled, indeed!


not sure which gps you use.. but the one I am using these days.. says.. "Traffic Ahead" !! . Nuvi 225..
anyway Boss .I resign.. you win .. feel happy..
Cheers

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby saip » 05 Feb 2011 01:02

prithvi wrote:
Marten wrote:I have used it to navigate both cars and a boat, but have never used it to physically maneuver any vehicle. How is that done? Please do educate us.

How about this then:
Can it help me avoid fast moving cars that duck into mine while above 80mph? I'd happily invite you to try that on the I95 on a Friday evening. Hands-free and GPS enabled, indeed!


not sure which gps you use.. but the one I am using these days.. says.. "Traffic Ahead" !! . Nuvi 225..
anyway Boss .I resign.. you win .. feel happy..
Cheers


That traffic thingy AFAIK is received thro FM and GPS has nothing to do with it. Like you can get the traffic info on your radio except in this case the info is received by your NUVI and it displays and also probably tries to reroute you. GPS info on the other hand is recd via satellites and your gps just calculates its coordinates and overlays them on the route map which is in its data base. Regarding Naval gps it can also display the coordinates and overlay them on the coastal map but it has no way of knowing about the other traffic in its vicinity.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby VinodTK » 05 Feb 2011 03:46

Navy to flex muscles in western front wargames

The warships, including aircraft carrier INS Viraat, Delhi-class destroyers, Kilo-class submarines and Talwar-class frigates, among others, are backed by Sea-Harrier jump-jets, IL-38 and Dornier-228 maritime reconnaissance aircraft and Kamov-28 and Seaking anti-submarine warfare helicopters.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Eric Leiderman » 05 Feb 2011 03:51

Your GPS position can be overlaid on an electronic and/or radar image

However in such close quarter situations human senses and judgement are all that u have
the rest are just aids to navigation

prithvi

Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby prithvi » 05 Feb 2011 04:03

Eric Leiderman wrote:Your GPS position can be overlaid on an electronic and/or radar image

However in such close quarter situations human senses and judgement are all that u have
the rest are just aids to navigation


you nailed it.. that was my whole point .. that when you are in a close encounter you have no choice however if we think about lets say T-4 minutes before the collision.. if a seasoned CO keeps a look at the radar overlay and sees the relative positions of three ships .. is there a way he can predict potential trouble..? with two parallel moving vessels INS Vidhya and Sea Eagle.. and Nordlake in an orthogonal direction to both... ...

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby putnanja » 05 Feb 2011 04:14

Well, when they are that close, they don't have to look at the radar overlay. They can just look outside and determine how best to avoid them. That is what everyone has been trying to say for sometime now.

When you are in heavy traffic, you don't need to look at the GPS to say how close you are to cars in the next lane. You see out and determine how to drive

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Pratyush » 05 Feb 2011 08:06




What is Mooring trial?

Eric Leiderman
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Eric Leiderman » 05 Feb 2011 08:29

Mooring trials are when a vessel is hooked up to shore power initially and then the ships aux power source possibly diesel generators, the other support systems are the tested one by one. Eg steering, hydraulic systems, her main propulsion could also be tested at low power.all the while she is moored to a wharf,

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Manish_P » 05 Feb 2011 11:23

Naval ship responsible for Vindhyagiri collision

The Indian Navy, perhaps, has its own ships and the Mumbai Port Trust to blame for Sunday’s collision that sank its frigate INS Vindhyagiri. Investigations into the collision have revealed that it was not MV Sea Eagle that created the communication confusion leading to the collision, but INS Godavari, which was part of the naval fleet returning to naval dockyard on Sunday.


A convoy of naval ships, in which INS Vindhyagiri was at the fifth spot, was coming towards the naval dockyard in the same channel, which is 400 metres wide. Because of the nature of the channel, where ships might have to cross each other’s path as the Naval Dockyard is on the other side of JNPT, communication between inbound and outbound ships is very important.

Sources said, the lead ship in the naval convoy established a communication with Nordlake and it was decided that both would go to the right of each other.


The ships behind the lead ship had to follow its course. However, one of these ships, INS Godavari, at the fourth spot, had fallen off the convoy formation because of slow speed. INS Godavari, failing to catch up with rest of the convoy, established its own communication with Nordlake, asking it to pass left-to-left (which means both ships would pass to the left of each other). “This created a major confusion as rest of the convoy was passing right-to-right,” said an officer investigating the case.

To give space to INS Godavari to pass to the left of itself, Nordlake turned right. Meanwhile, another inbound merchant ship MV Sea Eagle, which was moving towards JNPT and was ahead of Vindhyagiri had come parallel to the latter because of decreased speed on port approach.

At this juncture, both Nordlake and Sea Eagle were facing each other and thus established quick communication. Both communicated thrice about whether to pass through the right of each other or to the left, finally deciding to pass through the right. As soon as Nordlake crossed Sea Eagle - it missed crashing into it by 20 m - it found INS Vindhyagiri right ahead.

Vindhyagiri, which was behind Godavari in the convoy, had held its course and was following the understanding reached by the lead ship.

By now, it was too late to manoeuvre the ship and Nordlake crashed on the right side of Vindhyagiri at a right angle, leading to a fire in the ship’s boiler room.

“Another reason for the crash was that Nordlake was at high speed since it was going to open sea and Vindhyagiri was at slow speed as it was moving to port,” said an officer from Yellow Gate Police Station.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Philip » 05 Feb 2011 12:08

In future there should be no movement of merchantmen in the same waters while a major exercise/event is taking place involving naval warships and subs.fFrom the facts revealed thus far,the VG was extremely unlucky.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby sum » 05 Feb 2011 13:13

^^ So, the captain of INS Godavari now gets his marching orders?

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby SNaik » 05 Feb 2011 19:57

Is this the first P-28 in Vizag?

Image

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Craig Alpert » 05 Feb 2011 21:34

Antony sacks Navy officer for sexual misconduct in Moscow
NEW DELHI: Defence Minister A K Antony has sacked a senior Navy officer for having sexual relations with a Russian woman in Moscow as head of the Indian team overseeing the refit of aircraft carrier Admiral Gorshkov there.

Commodore Sukhjinder Singh was posted in Moscow between 2005 to 2007 as the Indian warship production superintendent to oversee Gorshkov's refit when he developed the illicit relationship with the woman.

"He (Singh) will be discharged. He will not be in service now," Antony told reporters when asked about the progress in the case.

Singh, who has at least two years of service left, will have to immediately pack his bags.

Singh's affair was exposed in April 2010, three years after his posting in Russia when his explicit pictures with the woman were brought to the notice of the Defence Ministry.

Soon after receiving the pictures, the Navy had ordered a Court Of Inquiry against him to establish his relations with the woman and whether the relationship had affected the Admiral Gorshkov deal in any way.

The CoI had established Singh's relations with the woman but maintained that his "loose moral conduct" had not "adversely impacted" India's position during the long-drawn wrangling with Russia over the 44,570-tonne carrier's refit.

After completing its inquiry, the Navy had sent the file to the Defence Ministry for further action.

Even after returning from Russia, Singh had continued to be associated with the Gorshkov programme as the principal director (aircraft carrier project) in New Delhi till mid-2009.


He was later relieved of his posting in the defence ministry's directorate-general of quality assurance.

After repeated Russian demands for higher prices for retrofitting the aircraft carrier, the two sides last year finally settled on USD 2.33 billion as the cost of the warship.
Last edited by Craig Alpert on 06 Feb 2011 03:54, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Rahul Anand » 05 Feb 2011 23:29

http://img51.imageshack.us/i/dsc01258o.jpg/
this is d pic of air defense ship 1(INS VIkrant) under construction at Cochin shipyard


:D

prithvi

Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby prithvi » 05 Feb 2011 23:38

Rahul Anand wrote:http://img51.imageshack.us/i/dsc01258o.jpg/
this is d pic of air defense ship 1(INS VIkrant) under construction at Cochin shipyard


:D


awesome scoop....thanks..

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby suryag » 06 Feb 2011 00:31

^^^ I might have missed this, but did we have a launch event. For most of the ships till date we have seen coconut breaking on the hull after which it is alllowed to slip into water. Vikrant however seems to be in water already so this event is done ? Btw looking at the pic the ship seems to be almost ready for system integration. So another two years from now it should be in the Navy's hands, would have been nice we also had the ski jump captured

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Indranil » 06 Feb 2011 00:41

Sorry guys, that is the Viraat.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Rahul Anand » 06 Feb 2011 01:51

yup!!!i too think...dat its INS Viraat, got hand on dis pic from one of my frnds lappy.....he said its from cochin ship yard so i thought its Vikrant!!i jst have gone through the pic again n d date on pic suggest....yr 2008,yr in which viraat refitting was on at cochin shipyard!!!sorry guys...n thanks Indranilroy!!

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Praveen » 06 Feb 2011 02:17

Marten wrote:^^Indranil, so that's from 2005?

Shuklaji had posted pics on his blog in Oct. The hull was pretty much underway but far from complete. Well, it felt good for that short while. Thanks for bursting that happy bubble.


It taken on Dec 20th 2008 at 5:46 pm using a Sony Ericsson W810i cell phone.

EXIF data:

Camera Make = Sony Ericsson
Camera Model = W810i
Original Date/Time = 2008:12:20 17:46:44

prithvi

Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby prithvi » 06 Feb 2011 05:29

Marten wrote:^^Indranil, so that's from 20052008?

Shuklaji had posted pics on his blog in Oct. The hull was pretty much underway but far from complete. Well, it felt good for that short while. Thanks for bursting that happy bubble.
PS: Thanks Praveen, I mistyped that. iirc 2004 was when it relaunched after Baraks were added.


however a ship of that size... how are we managing to cloak it into secrecy..? would love to have a glimpse...

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Baldev » 06 Feb 2011 05:30

Rahul Anand wrote:http://img51.imageshack.us/i/dsc01258o.jpg/
this is d pic of air defense ship 1(INS VIkrant) under construction at Cochin shipyard
:D
if you want to see AC go to google maps and search for Cochin shipyard you will have better idea than this

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Baldev » 06 Feb 2011 06:41

who is there who doesn't do sexual misconduct.ministers do it most of the time.

and after fiu years later they will find someone with french women for scorpene price increase,
or some one with american women for mrca price increase its all the work of govt. and some corrupt people whether Indian or Russian

there are not only people from navy but also from govt also who deal with all this.
navy officer must not be alone in this but he has been used for selfishness of others and all the allegations thrown on him.

if naval officer caused price increase then admiral himself said no aircraft carrier cost less than 2 billion

who knows whats not the embassy people do abroad.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Vivek K » 06 Feb 2011 06:46

Baldev, is that an excuse for the officer? Can he escape the blame for his actions? This is like saying that because everyone speeds on the highway, no one should get a ticket. The logic is unsound. Please re-examine it.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Baldev » 06 Feb 2011 06:54

Vivek K wrote:Baldev, is that an excuse for the officer? Can he escape the blame for his actions? This is like saying that because everyone speeds on the highway, no one should get a ticket. The logic is unsound. Please re-examine it.
for sure he wasn't alone in this and there must be high ranking Indian govt. people with him who do the similar things as well

who is that stupid that do such actions abroad if he did he wasn't alone :-?
and who is that stupid who allows pictures to be taken like this,he has been used.
there must be others with him who were enjoying Russian khatirdaari

and nobody bothered to ask officer himself or let him speak in this regard.
http://kalyugikalki.blogspot.com/2010/0 ... -life.html


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