Indian Naval Discussion

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Austin
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Austin » 16 Mar 2011 09:34

The should base the entire Shivalik class ships on the eastern front , the western front has far too many capable ships while the eastern front remain neglected for too long.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Singha » 16 Mar 2011 09:40

a strategic new base on the lines of karwar will need coming up to accomodate large number of ships upto carriers. the expenses and usual howls of vested interests need to be planned for.

also a fwd base like guam or yokosuka needs setting up in andaman islands.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby chackojoseph » 16 Mar 2011 09:53

Singha wrote:a strategic new base on the lines of karwar will need coming up to accomodate large number of ships upto carriers. the expenses and usual howls of vested interests need to be planned for.

also a fwd base like guam or yokosuka needs setting up in andaman islands.


There is one on the east coast karwar type coming (in odisha?). Then for A/C and another for nuclear subs (Project Varsha?). IIRc, all these were announced a year or two back.

A&N should not have a major base. It should have feeder bases.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Singha » 16 Mar 2011 10:08

well I would hope the days of dhoti shivering and cowering back into the mainland are coming to and end. we should convert AN into a impregnable fwd base with a mix of naval, marine and air assets. will help to cut 24 hrs from sortie times of the ships and increase the 'reach' of IAF a/c by 1000km.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby suryag » 16 Mar 2011 10:17

INS Sahyadri(?) to join next month according to wiki.

Btw, shivalik class frigates and kolkatta class destroyers have the same displacement then why call it a frigate ?

Austin
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Austin » 16 Mar 2011 10:21

Well assuming we make A&N into a full fledge base , which would be the likely threat perception those base would address , the chinese are far east of it and no other country in that region has the capability to threaten Indian interest.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby merlin » 16 Mar 2011 10:24

Austin wrote:The should base the entire Shivalik class ships on the eastern front , the western front has far too many capable ships while the eastern front remain neglected for too long.


I don't agree - not with all the Kashins in the eastern fleet and all Kilos there.

Austin
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Austin » 16 Mar 2011 10:48

The Kashin are most certainly there ,not sure all Kilos are there as well , what do the WNC operate few T-209 ?

But its high time we put more ships and subs under ENC , that has been neglected for too long.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby srai » 16 Mar 2011 11:50

Austin wrote:Well assuming we make A&N into a full fledge base , which would be the likely threat perception those base would address , the chinese are far east of it and no other country in that region has the capability to threaten Indian interest.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strait_of_Malacca
From an economic and strategic perspective, the Strait of Malacca is one of the most important shipping lanes in the world.

The strait is the main shipping channel between the Indian Ocean and the Pacific Ocean, linking major Asian economies such as India, China, Japan and South Korea. Over 50,000 (94,000?)[2] vessels pass through the strait per year,[3] carrying about one-quarter of the world's traded goods including oil, Chinese manufactures, and Indonesian coffee.[4]

About a quarter of all oil carried by sea passes through the strait, mainly from Persian Gulf suppliers to Asian markets such as China, Japan, and South Korea. In 2006, an estimated 15 million barrels per day (2,400,000 m3/d) were transported through the strait.[5]...

Austin
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Austin » 16 Mar 2011 12:02

So we would like to control Strait of Malacca and the purpose being to control the supply of oil and other commodity good ?

I wonder how this would be taken by other countries who might not be enemy state of India and China has diversified its oi/gasl import buy building pipeline over land

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby r sawant » 16 Mar 2011 12:26

If we attack a tanker of a neutral country (as most are), i would presume that would lead to the tanker war scenario. Furthermore, if we behave too aggresively in the strait (anti piracy is a different matter) that could lead to the malacca state countries to oppose our deployments there.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby prahaar » 16 Mar 2011 12:35

The idea behind the A&N base would be to carry a big-deterrent-stick against China. We should not rely too much on US to dissuade Chinese adventures. Beefing up only the ENC mainland-base is inefficient for securing Malacca strait and will be perceived as Bangladesh/Burma centric.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby r sawant » 16 Mar 2011 12:52

I think it would be more better if we beef it up with strike and ASW aircraft (aircraft in general), with few ships (1DDG, 2FFG, 1-2 sub). Would have faster response time.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Singha » 16 Mar 2011 13:06

Hainan island is not too far away. the volcanic mountain nature of Andaman makes it ideal to have cave type fwd submarine base and munitions depots/ELINT stations. the coral nature of nicobar keeps it flattish and suitable for airbases, marine base and logistical hub.

a bunch of commercial Ro-Ro ferries can efficiently and speedily maintain links with the mainland and among the islands.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Austin » 16 Mar 2011 14:31

Russia will give India Nerpa until October

The boat is fully ready for transfer. We have it work out the problem with Indian crew of Russian instructors. Prior to October, this task must be executed, and so we're going to delay" - a spokesman said.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby kit » 16 Mar 2011 16:31

prahaar wrote:The idea behind the A&N base would be to carry a big-deterrent-stick against China. We should not rely too much on US to dissuade Chinese adventures. Beefing up only the ENC mainland-base is inefficient for securing Malacca strait and will be perceived as Bangladesh/Burma centric.


Dont know about the geography of the Andamans but a couple of secret naval bases for submarines in India's island chains would provide it unprecedented snooping power and covert action capabilities over all littoral areas.Need not be high profile ones.But one needs to have submarines in adequate numbers in the first place, that too designed for such operations.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby John » 16 Mar 2011 18:03

Austin wrote:
John wrote:Austin, if china has funded development of Vl-shtil and are mass producing a local variant. That would reason enough not to procure it.


Not to procure it and why so ? If russia funds some weapons both buy the same export model and if VL Shtil is available for export how does it matter who has initially funded it ?

Well it is China that funded vl-shtil and they seem to have direct access to it, with SAMs if you have in dept knowledge of its working you can easily develop counter measures against it. One of the reasons you don't see companies like Raytheon offering license production of Patriot or Hawk.

negi wrote:Boss BRAHMOS UVLM (specially the 8 cell cluster) has been in IN service for quite some time now afaik INS Ranvir has it.

The one used in Teg class will be different launcher, it is similar in appearance to Klub VLS cells ( supposedly compatible with Klub missile not confirmed). There was pictures of it posted a while back.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Austin » 16 Mar 2011 20:59

Russia to lease nuclear submarine to India before October

Russia will lease a nuclear powered submarine to India before October, a Russian Navy Staff admiral said on Wednesday.

Previous media reports said that the K-152 Nerpa attack submarine had already been transferred to India on a 10-year lease.

"The submarine is completely ready for transfer. An Indian crew is currently training aboard with Russian instructors," the admiral - who requested anonymity - said.

The training course includes the launching of cruise missiles, he added.

"This should be completed before October: We're running late as it is," the admiral said.

Twenty sailors were killed onboard the submarine as the K-152 Nerpa was undergoing sea trials in the Sea of Japan in November 2008. A fire extinguishing system malfunctioned leading to the discharge of a toxic gas.

The boat is now fully operational after repairs.

The $900-million lease contract was drawn up after Moscow and New Delhi struck a deal in January 2004 where India agreed to fund part of the Nerpa's construction.

The Nerpa was originally scheduled to be inducted into the Indian Navy as INS Chakra by mid-2008.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby NRao » 16 Mar 2011 21:42

Oct 2011 or 2012?

Not it matters any more.

Vivek K
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Vivek K » 16 Mar 2011 22:22

No chest beating??? Oh I get it! It is bought from a foreign vendor!!

Austin
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Austin » 17 Mar 2011 09:33

John wrote:Well it is China that funded vl-shtil and they seem to have direct access to it, with SAMs if you have in dept knowledge of its working you can easily develop counter measures against it. One of the reasons you don't see companies like Raytheon offering license production of Patriot or Hawk.


Well if this was to be a JV or China funded project the world would have known by now , so assuming that it is just because IN has not bought these system is just false.

I really do not know how many system does America allows to lic produce it , most Patriot and Hawk users outside US are NATO allies or have security arrangement with US so it would just be economical to outrightly import the system.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Baldev » 17 Mar 2011 20:28

any news on P15? where its gone.



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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby maz » 21 Mar 2011 16:43

The Indian Navy's only Information Warfare Squadron, INAS 310 'Cobras', celebrate their Golden Jubilee today!

As one of the most decorated naval air squadrons, the squadron has a distinguished history and a pioneering spirit. Initially equipped with French Breguet Br. 1050 Alizé aircraft, the squadron now operates German origin Dornier Do-228 aircraft from NAS Hansa, in Dabolim, Goa. Crucially, the Cobras went on to pioneer the esoteric military art of ELINT in the Indian Armed Forces.

In December 1971, flying Alize's from the Vikrant, the Cobras, along with the White Tigers (INAS 300) flying Sea Hawks, were instrumental in bringing about a speedy end to the conflict in East Pakistan.

Over the 10 days of operations from the Vikrant, the Cobras flew 63 sorties totaling 158 hours with four or five aircraft while the White Tigers flew 128 sorties totaling 108 hours with 18 aircraft.

For their efforts, the Cobras won six Vir Chakras, six Nao Sena Medals and three Mentions in Despatches...

Since the 71 War, the Sqn has been in the thick of action. Not only that, they are also a development unit - trialing new equipment and developing developing new equipment and operational techniques, tactics and procedures.

After operating the Alize for some 30 years, the Sqn converted to the Dornier 228 in April 1991. Besides serving as a maritime patrol platfrom, the Cobras have developed this plane into a superb ELINT platform over the years.

As ELINT operators, the Sqn proved their worth in 1998 during the India-Pakistan standoff with daring low level flights to map Pakistani radar and air defense systems while fling on the Indian side of the IBL. The value of the intel gathered was of such a quality that it opened up the other Services to joint ops. By this time, their ELINT capabilities had grown to the point that they were reclassified as an Information Warfare Sqaudron in Oct 98.

By the time of the Kargil Conflict, the Sqn took the meaning of joint operations in the Indian Armed Forces to a new level as they were deployed in support of the Army and air Force for integrated Elint ops for the first time.

Since then, the Sqn has been in the forefront of every operation operating in places one would not expect to see a naval aircraft!

Not only that, they have gone on to bag the the Best Naval Air Squadron awards and others like it several times.

We at BR salute the brave men and women of the Cobras and wish them another 50 years of safe flying and success in their endeavours as they continue to carry out frontline missions.

Naval aviation is a hisk risk endeavour. In spite of the best precautions, mishaps, often with fatal consequences do take place. We also remember these Cobras who gave their lives while serving.

IN MEMORIAM

20 Jul 1964 - Lt S M Rajmachikkar, Lt BT Acharya, Lt VK Jaykumar, Lt KD Jayal (?) – crashed upon launching from Vikrant

Sep 1965 - Lt SC Malviya, CPO (ACM) PK Unni – crashed while flying from Kochi to Bombay

10 Dec 1971 – Lt Cdr A Roy, Lt HS Sirohi, MCPO Vijayan –crashed while evading a Pakistani F-104 Starfighter

Oct 1976 - Lt Cdr P Kumar, Lt PC Handa and Lt Suharu - crashed off Goa.

25 Sep 1986 - Cdr S Mukherjee, Lt Cdr SK Kapila and NAM Dalip Singh – crashed off Karwar


BR will release a feature shortly. Until then, read more about the Cobras and their story at http://www.scribd.com/doc/51209131/Indian-Naval-Air-Squadron-310-Golden-Jubilee

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Gagan » 21 Mar 2011 20:04

WRT the IN VLF station.

Apparently there is only one station INS Kattaboman in Tamil Nadu.

There is quite a big repository of info out there on the net describing the frequencies used by all the vlf stations around, even describing the type of signals used by each (including the IN's station). One website mentions that the Indian Navy's VLF signals have been tapped in the US and UK routinely.

List of all the VLF stations in the world: http://www.smeter.net/stations/vlf-stations.php
Call signs and frequencies are mentioned.

Another link that describes some of the signals that have been intercepted by private signal operators / ham operators and the like: http://www.vlf.it/itulist/itulist.htm
18.2 kHz
VTX3 is an Indian Navy traffic station. Operates from Vijananarayanam. Has been heard in USA and UK.
23/7/95 1832, HF1000 CW 200Hz LW7 S2. CW again heard, copied by PL, confirmed callsign VTX3 and traffic a series of numbers and alpha characters. Pauses with II characters. A series of idents, v's traffic and II's after a break. Signal up to S2 at times, some fading.
27/6/99 1925z, VTX3 traffic heard from 1930, standard Morse. V40 CW 100Hz BW -550 Hz -90dbm peak.
11/7/99 2059z, VTX3 V40 CW 600Hz peaks to -86dbm
23/7/99 2137z, VTX3 V40 l202 CW 500Hz Morse traffic -87dbm
11/7/99 1530z, VVV DE VTX3 and tfc, then RTTY -mb-
Oct./99 1021 received by DG4BAS in msk

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Vivek K » 21 Mar 2011 20:13


The crew must be quite slow in learning (or......). This training is reportedly on for several years!

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Rakesh » 21 Mar 2011 20:36

Vivek: There are multiple crews being trained and not just one. This is not like learning how to drive a bycicle...a nuclear submarine is serious business.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Vivek K » 21 Mar 2011 20:53

Aye Aye Admiral!! Just tired of getting dates for delivery with flimsy excuses like - the interior is not painted.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Rakesh » 21 Mar 2011 21:56

Vivek K wrote:Aye Aye Admiral!! Just tired of getting dates for delivery with flimsy excuses like - the interior is not painted.


All military hardware that India buys from abroad or makes at home is delayed. It is just the way we operate. It is a SDRE trait :)

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Craig Alpert » 21 Mar 2011 23:06

Rakesh wrote:
Vivek K wrote:Aye Aye Admiral!! Just tired of getting dates for delivery with flimsy excuses like - the interior is not painted.


All military hardware that India buys from abroad or makes at home is delayed. It is just the way we operate. It is a SDRE trait :)

Barring the C-130 J's ofcourse :P

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Rakesh » 22 Mar 2011 00:10

Craig Alpert wrote:Barring the C-130 J's ofcourse :P


You are right! And also slightly under budget! :rotfl:

Maybe we should go for F/A-18 after all! The E/A-18G would be NICE :wink:

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby chackojoseph » 22 Mar 2011 08:59

Indian Navy’s Information Warfare squadron base INAS-310 ‘COBRA’ celebrated its golden jubilee

INAS 310 was commissioned by Nawab Ali Yavar Jung on 21 Mar 1961 in Heyres, France. The squardon was headed by Lt Cdr Mihir K Roy (later Vice Admiral). The squardon was commissioned on the French Aircraft carrier ‘Arromanches.’ The first Alize 1050 aircraft was handed over to India on 7th January, 1961 at a place called Villacoublay in France. The Cobra’s participated in a tactical excercise with Type-12 ships (INS Beas and INS Betwa). Both Alize and Type-12 (from UK) were newely acquired and were making their way to India.

...The squadron has two unit citations, over 80,000 hrs of flying, operations in – 1971 (East Pakistan), 1999 (‘Op Vijay’) and 2002 (‘Op Parakram’). Other operations that participated were Operation Vijay (Liberation of Goa) in December 1961, 1965 war (defend naval assets) against Pakistan, 1988 Operation Pawan (against LTTE) in Srilanka and 1988 Operation Cactus (maldives).


Some history.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby khukri » 22 Mar 2011 10:12

Just saw IN Il-38 IN305 at Muscat airport

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Aditya_V » 22 Mar 2011 10:22

khukri wrote:Just saw IN Il-38 IN305 at Muscat airport


Any idea what it is doing A'Seeb, Salalah or American Air base in the interior would be more appropriate for anti-piracy ops.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Gagan » 22 Mar 2011 11:55

If that IL-38 is supporting the IN anti piracy operations, it will be better deployed at Thumrait, Oman which lies closer to the Gulf of Aden.

But IN's anti piracy ops support is the most likely reason that bird is there.

There is talk of a proposal by naval HQ to def ministry ? PMO? for a naval / commando raid / seaborne assault and landing on the hijackers' lairs in somalia. Maybe the pieces on the chess board are being moved into place.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby sum » 22 Mar 2011 13:20

"Premier" ASW assets like the Il-38 being used for anti-piracy ?

Shouldn't the Dorniers be enough for this job? Maybe, there is more to the Il-38 than anti-piracy duties...

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Gagan » 22 Mar 2011 13:31

I know, but support for anti piracy ops apart, the other possibilities are:
1. Military Exercise with Oman
2. The bird landed there enroute to Russia / Ukraine
3. The bird is occasionally based there / has refueling privilidges there after its snoops around in the northern arabian sea
4. The omanese navy is interested in the bird, and IN obliged to send one for them to check it out.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Mukesh.Kumar » 22 Mar 2011 13:42

@ Khukri- Is there an email address to reach you at?

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby shyamd » 22 Mar 2011 13:50

We were due to have an exercise with Oman this month as well as with KSA, looks like things have been postponed for later this year. They would use the military side of the Seeb Airport. It's probably just re-fueling after a sortie.

We use Dorniers mainly for Anti Piracy surveillance ops right? Il-38s are for ASW work as Sum correctly pointed out? In fact IN305 was the first to be upgraded with the Sea Dragon suite back in 2004.

Indian naval ships on Anti piracy ops use Salalah mainly I believe.


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